New Goldsmith Lionheart recording coming in 2024

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

How has nobody reported this yet!? Leigh Phillips posted on Facebook a week ago that a new Lionheart re-recording Kickstarter is coming 2024:

https://www.facebook.com/LeighPhillipsMusic/posts/pfbid0ppw9KQ2E5ht7NpgBQyX41y7nQR8skamxPUVvZmf9jnYqGC4BcV4N7n2vMLXy2f1zl

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,169]

Yeah, Leigh is first planning to do a final mini-Kickstarter for the last two scores we currently have access to that Goldsmith wrote for The General Electric Theater... that will hopefully come later this year, and will result in enough recorded music for a really packed full CD of Jerry Goldsmith at The General Electric Theater.

 

But after that he wanted to get BIG, encouraged by the great success of his first two campaigns, as well as Taylor White's campaign for Jeff Bond's The Jerry Goldsmith Companion book. And Goldsmith scores don't get much bigger than Lionheart, at almost an hour and a half long with large orchestra.

 

Yavar

[filmmusic 1,679]

If I may ask, what's wrong with the Varese release of Lionheart?

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

23 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

If I may ask, what's wrong with the Varese release of Lionheart?

 

The performance of the orchestra, and the sound is not the best either. My personal impression has always been that Goldsmith added synth brass to compensate for the orchestra's difficulties. Whether that's true or not, I'd be happy if the mix of the re-rec favours the real instruments over the synth brass in those parts.

[John F 89]

Wow now this sounds interesting!

[Ollie 984]

Given his track record, I will definitely contribute.

[Yavar Moradi 2,169]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:42 PM, filmmusic said:

If I may ask, what's wrong with the Varese release of Lionheart?

 

Nothing, really. It’s as good as it can be, given what was available.

It’s a very good release…of a sometimes-poor performance (though still better than several other performances Jerry got in Hungary, IMO!) Basically this score is “Goldsmith’s Conan the Barbarian” in more ways than one. The orchestra’s performance, while generally spirited, is just a little rough sometimes, and didn’t quite live up to the grand epic scope of the score. He was apparently unhappy with the brass performance in particular and so came back to LA and (very unusually) overdubbed some synth brass on top to smooth it out a bit.

 

The Varese is also not *quite* complete, and the two added cues (which introduce the Black Prince theme before it gets folded into the action music) that came from Doug Fake’s backup copy of the sessions he attended did not sound as good as the rest of the score. It’s also possible that more unheard music will turn up on the written sketches, which happened with that great fanfare at the beginning of Black Patch.

 

Here’s a Facebook exchange with Leigh:

 

”Volker - indeed; 2 albums with the same dodgy performance and overlayed synth support for the brass.  Lionheart needs work”

 

I replied, “Leigh so would you be eliminating (or cutting down on) the synth elements in your new recording, and having those lines carried by just acoustic brass? I do hope you can recreate the unique synth serpent sound in Jerry’s original, at least. That’s a unique timbre that would be a shame to lose.”

 

And he answered: “Yavar - all that’s necessary would be present (ie. everything which isn’t proxy brass)”

 

Yavar

[Andy 3,563]

I could go for this.  I’m relatively new to this score, but my last listen really got me in the feels. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,169]

39 minutes ago, Andy said:

I could go for this.  I’m relatively new to this score, but my last listen really got me in the feels. 

Favorite cues/moments? This score is top 10 Goldsmith for me. I love it even more than Legend from that decade, and when it comes to his “medieval quartet” I love it more than First Knight and Timeline and The 13th Warrior even though they are all fantastic.

 

Also, this score has more than half a dozen themes in it and may be his most leitmotivic score in the best possible way. I love it whenever Jerry deftly interweaves two themes together, in this score.

 

Yavar

[Thor 6,769]

8 hours ago, filmmusic said:

If I may ask, what's wrong with the Varese release of Lionheart?

 

Nothing. Never had any issues with performance, sound quality or the selection of music (63 minutes is pretty generous for a single musical work!). It's a fine score, maybe even top 10 JG for me. "Mathilda" is one his best and most infectious cues. I don't need any other version of this.

[Brónach 1,278]

the complete Lionheart needs to be rerecorded so i'm really happy

 

and maybe now I can buy it

[filmmusic 1,679]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Nothing.

This is I thought so too.

That's why I am not a fan of re-recordings of perfectly presented scores vs re-recordings of scores whose master tapes have been lost or I don't know what else.

[Brónach 1,278]

do you go to a concert and complain that you already have another recording or part of it at home?

[Holko 8,947]

Ben-Hur and Conan have perfectly well assembled archival releases (as they should) but I'm very glad to own the rerecordings instead in much better sound and performances (for the Rome-recorded cues for Ben-Hur and fully in the case of Conan).

 

The samples of this score's new expansion didn't do much for me, I wonder if this'll be different or if the score's just one of Jerry's misses between the hits for me.

[GerateWohl 3,697]

26 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

This is I thought so too.

That's why I am not a fan of re-recordings of perfectly presented scores vs re-recordings of scores whose master tapes have been lost or I don't know what else.

Quite often I thought a piece of music was perfectly recorded until I listened to a re-recording and got overwhelmed by the improvement.

 

Actually, Lionheart was for me always a case, where I thought, good music but not with this recording. That is why I don't own any of it.

[Brónach 1,278]

Conan makes it so that you need both, which, ultimately, begs for a third. magic numbers.

[JTWfan77 1,658]

This is fantastic news! Especially for the two additional unreleased cues that made their way onto the V/S DE release, which suffered from poor sound quality.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,129]

A QQ:

When was the most recent release of LIONHEART?

[JTWfan77 1,658]

Feels like it was last year but I could be mistaken.

[Jay 35,238]

2021

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33732-jerry-goldsmiths-lionheart-1987-2021-2-cd-varese-deluxe-edition/

[JTWfan77 1,658]

Damn time goes fast!

 

I hope Leigh will take the opportunity to add a few bonus goodies such as a sparkling new recording of that dodgy-sounding Rambo II trailer music from the Intrada release.

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

2 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

I hope Leigh will take the opportunity to add a few bonus goodies such as a sparkling new recording of that dodgy-sounding Rambo II trailer music from the Intrada release.

 

Or save that for later and couple it with a re-rec of Rambo III - the other Goldsmith score that's available & expanded, but desperately needs a better performance. That and Lionheart are two of my main wishes for re-recs, along with Bernstein's Hallelujah Trail (lost masters, woefully incomplete album) and Korngold's Captain Blood.

[Brundlefly 2,352]

Sounds fantastic, this is, besides Inchon, one of the two Goldsmith scores that I would love to have a re-recording of!

[JTWfan77 1,658]

Seeing that some of the studios are clamming up with regard to score releases, or not finding elements, maybe re-recordings will become a thing again?

[Steffromuk 330]

I passed on the last re-release of Lionheart cause I really had a problem with the mix and the reverb.

If Leigh can manage to boost and inject the energy and epicness that was missing from the original recording, I'll definitely get this one!

[JTWfan77 1,658]

One thing I'm not quite understanding is, if WB has clammed up, how is Leigh able to do this recording (assuming it does happen). Surely the studio still owns the underlying music?

 

Varese or perhaps Masters Film Music/Townson presumably hold album rights only so no issues there, and the music publishing rights are with whomever and could be licenced, but what about the actual compositions?

 

[Jay 35,238]

Pretty sure anyone can do any rerecording of any work they want. 

 

It's not like bands need to get permission to do covers 

[Incanus 5,657]

Great news! Looking forward to this! 

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

39 minutes ago, Jay said:

Pretty sure anyone can do any rerecording of any work they want. 

 

It's not like bands need to get permission to do covers 

 

Performing covers in a live setting is one thing. Recording covers and selling them requires a matching licence from the copyright owners. Same for recording and selling sheet music still covered by copyright. Even live performances of the original version (i.e. not a cover) are subject to licencing fees.

[Jay 35,238]

Right, they'll have to pay WB some amount of money for every copy sold, but I don't think they need to seek out WB's explicit permission first.

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

Right, they'll have to pay WB some amount of money for every copy sold, but I don't think they need to seek out WB's explicit permission first.

 

Ah. Yes, I suppose there *could* be something in the licence that restricts who may or may not perform a work, but I expect that all standard licences just require a fee without specific extra permissions.

[Tom Guernsey 2,008]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

Right, they'll have to pay WB some amount of money for every copy sold, but I don't think they need to seek out WB's explicit permission first.

That was always my understanding. As long as you’re paying the mechanical (I think it is) royalties to the copyright owner and you can either buy/rent/copy down by ear the score, you can record what you like. Else how would all those random synth orchestra film music compilations exist?! I can’t imagine JW (or many other composers) would otherwise approve cheap knock of synth versions of their music. 

[Jay 35,238]

Right.

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

That was always my understanding. As long as you’re paying the mechanical (I think it is) royalties to the copyright owner and you can either buy/rent/copy down by ear the score, you can record what you like. Else how would all those random synth orchestra film music compilations exist?! I can’t imagine JW (or many other composers) would otherwise approve cheap knock of synth versions of their music. 

 

I've been wondering about that. Is it legal to perform (and record) music if there are official parts available for sale or rent and you pay the performance/recording fees, but do not buy or rent the actual sheet music? It's a copyright violation to reproduce the original sheets yourself, so where does creating them from scratch fit into this? Is it a grey area? In other words: What's the legal status of those unlicenced LOTR and Potter concert tours? Shore's people at least are clearly not happy about them, but is there something they could do against them if they wanted to (and figured it was worth the effort and expenses)?

[Mr. Hooper 835]

On 6/9/2023 at 7:06 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

The performance of the orchestra, and the sound is not the best either. My personal impression has always been that Goldsmith added synth brass to compensate for the orchestra's difficulties. Whether that's true or not, I'd be happy if the mix of the re-rec favours the real instruments over the synth brass in those parts.

Was never a fan of the synth brass.

 

Wow, it's been ages since I threw on Lionheart. Gonna have a glass of red and listen to a Goldsmith double bill of Lionheart and Legend...

[JTWfan77 1,658]

17 hours ago, Jay said:

Right, they'll have to pay WB some amount of money for every copy sold, but I don't think they need to seek out WB's explicit permission first.

 

How much money though? What percentage? How would they get WB's bank details without consulting them up front? Who would Leigh even phone to ask if there is nothing in contractual form?

[bruce marshall 1,284]

On 10/09/2023 at 8:03 AM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Ah. Yes, I suppose there *could* be something in the licence that restricts who may or may not perform a work, but I expect that all standard licences just require a fee without specific extra permissions.

The Gershwin estate still controls who can perform his music!!!!!!😳

[Brónach 1,278]

so, in the absence of Jerry, WB owns the sheet music? I am so confused.

 

secondly i am confused that it's not enough to buy the sheet music, that you have to pay more to either play it and/or record it and/or sell the recording.

On 10/09/2023 at 5:23 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I've been wondering about that. Is it legal to perform (and record) music if there are official parts available for sale or rent and you pay the performance/recording fees, but do not buy or rent the actual sheet music?

 

they have no way of knowing where you got the sheet music from i suppose.

[Marian Schedenig 7,506]

4 hours ago, Brónach said:

so, in the absence of Jerry, WB owns the sheet music? I am so confused.

 

Not just in his absence. I assume when a score is contracted by a studio, the default is that the studio owns the sheet music. Anything beyond that is probably contractual details.

 

4 hours ago, Brónach said:

they have no way of knowing where you got the sheet music from i suppose.

 

Depends. If the sheet music is available for hire only (as with the Arvo Pärt piece we once performed with the choir), they probably can (and possibly do) keep a precise log.

[Brónach 1,278]

both of these are outlandish, but it gives me more questions. does "the studio owns the sheet music" mean they own the physical copies or the music represented in it? do studios own the copyright of the music stored at JW's home? or do studios own the physical books that he has? (maybe they dont know or care?)

[Jay 35,238]

They own the music, not any specific written down version of it

[thestat 310]

Totally not sure about this. To me, Lionheart has been a perfect combination of JG's synth obsession at the time and his orchestral sensibilities.

 

As Leigh says, Jerry doubled up the brass with synth - great, so we will get to hear what it would have sounded in perfect form. BUT, cues like The Lake are very much perfect as they are......despite the terrible sound on this youtube clip (but did JG play with major/minor mode this much in his love work?) The problem with some of his 90s stuff was too much reliance on saccharine love crap).

 

And there is no better synth sound in the world than the sample which opens The Lake and transitions the melody in Under Fire from the pan pipe samples to the orchestra - JG was a master of synths and they were there mostly for a reason as he was not exactly Randy Edelman selling cheap shit to producers of Anaconda.

 

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,169]

It’s only the synth brass overlays that Goldsmith used to make up for the orchestra’s poor brass performance which Leigh is planning on doing away with; the rest of the cool synth elements he is planning to re-create, as he was able to do pretty well on The Salamander for Prometheus/Tadlow and Damnation Alley for Intrada.

 

Yavar.

[Yavar Moradi 2,169]

On 06/09/2023 at 4:33 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

Yeah, Leigh is first planning to do a final mini-Kickstarter for the last two scores we currently have access to that Goldsmith wrote for The General Electric Theater... that will hopefully come later this year, and will result in enough recorded music for a really packed full CD of Jerry Goldsmith at The General Electric Theater.

 

Hey, for anyone interested who missed it, Leigh's final Goldsmith @ GE Theater actually launched this past Friday, and is already approaching 70% funding thanks to 82 backers and counting! Come and join us to complete the project...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lpfilmmusic/record-jerry-goldsmith-at-the-ge-theater-volumes-6-and-7

 

Also, for anyone interested, Leigh shared with me a great example of his "beef" with the Hungarian performance on Lionheart. For anyone who thinks it's just fine, try 40 seconds into "The Wrong Flag"... as Leigh put it to me, "every other note is a wrong one". (And there are plenty of examples of poor brass playing in this score; that's just a particularly painful part...)

Leigh spent a while discussing his feelings about Lionheart and the impetus behind producing a new recording next year, towards the end of our recent Production Report podcast with him:

https://goldsmithodyssey.buzzsprout.com/159614/13692226-production-report-the-last-dance-2023-leigh-phillips-recording

 

Yavar

[Ollie 984]

I’m surprised this hasn’t gotten a lot of notice outside of here and Facebook.

[Yavar Moradi 2,169]

I'm surprised at the lack of buzz at FSM about it, since that's Goldsmith Central. I bet that'll change by the time the campaign actually happens, though. Meanwhile Leigh's third crowdfunding campaign for much more obscure General Electric Theater is going like gangbusters, at 85% funded after only six days thanks to 94 backers!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lpfilmmusic/record-jerry-goldsmith-at-the-ge-theater-volumes-6-and-7

 

Yavar

[Naïve Old Fart 9,129]

7 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I'm surprised at the lack of buzz at FSM about it, since that's Goldsmith Central. 

 

Yeah, well, that's FSM for you, innit.

JWfan is the place it's at.

[Schilkeman 771]

4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Yeah, well, that's FSM for you, innit.

JWfan is the place it's at

Having frequented both in the last few years...

 

yep.

[JTW 1,240]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:30 AM, Thor said:

I don't need any other version of this.

Agreed. I’m perfectly satisfied with it, too. 

[Steffromuk 330]

I'm wondering if the lack of buzz might be because Lionheart is not fans' favorite?

I have to admit, I was surprised to see it annouced as the next kickstarter. I would have thought that another beloved incomplete and lost score like Underfire would have gotten much more cheers and reposts.