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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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2 hours ago, Tom said:

But that is what happens.  Holdo will not tell one of the most trusted pilots (if VII means anything anymore) the plan for no other reason than to make him blindly obey and trust her.  It is not as if telling him the plan would have in any way jeopardized the plan itself.  He has every reason not to give blind obedience to some new leader with whom he has no experience, but the movie wants to paint him as the bad guy for not obeying.  With the resistance as small as it is at that point, a good leader who give such details if it did not jeopardize the plan and there was time to do so, which in this case there was, as it would have taken 10 seconds. 

 

Because of Holdo's silence, I actually thought she was going to end up being the bad guy and betray the Resistance some how.  Boy, I misjudged that.  Turns out she was trying to save them all!

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The movie doesn't paint him as the bad guy. He's a hotshot pilot with good intentions running on space opera tropes. The movie just plays a bit with the idea that maybe those Star Wars tropes don't work all the time. The movie doesn't think of Holdo as a bad guy either. The heroes are all heroes. They just crash and burn.

 

Interestingly, the villains also kind of fail. I think Kylo is my favourite character and I appreciate that they make him the co-protagonist to Rey.

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4 hours ago, Brónach said:

Interestingly, the villains also kind of fail. I think Kylo is my favourite character and I appreciate that they make him the co-protagonist to Rey.

 

Perfect villification of the cis white male!

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I recall reading spoilers for this thing a few days before it came out and thinking with self-indulgent glee "Ohh, this is going to piss more than a few fans off, and the reactions will be a joy to read".

I like it when I'm right. For once. At the very least, this has been much more fun than reading endless posts about how TFA is A Not-So-New Hope. Last Jedi is flawed for much more compelling reasons.

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13 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

man what a pile of idiotic bullshit you just wrote. I would not ever think of you as clueless until now. See my response to Tom's foolishness below.

I could use a quote from Aliens, but I would rather be far more rude and blunt but thanks for your retarded response. We all feel better now. I guess you said the same thing when Yoda schooled Luke, 

you say that like its a bad thing. 

 

Fuck off. 

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7 hours ago, Brónach said:

Interestingly, the villains also kind of fail. I think Kylo is my favourite character and I appreciate that they make him the co-protagonist to Rey.

 

THE STAGE IS READY FOR KYLO REN AND REY!!! EPISODE IX CAN COME!!!

 

This is the impression the end of that movie gave me.

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16 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

you say that like its a bad thing. 

 

Dude, I was being satirical. Lighten up. You honestly have got to be one of the most loathsome posters on these forums.

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9 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

 

THE STAGE IS READY FOR KYLO REN AND REY!!! EPISODE IX CAN COME!!!

 

This is the impression the end of that movie gave me.

 

This is what Rian Johnson said before the public premieres/fan complaints started that the story he wants told is Rey and Ren's story so he found Luke, Rey's parents, and Snoke to be superfluous to the core story much as Palpatine was a background character that took decades to have a backstory to.  He said Luke's heroe's journey ended with Return of the Jedi so he is a secondary character to Rey who is in the midst of her own hero's journey.  I think some fans who were disappointed wanted Luke's hero's quest to continue.  Fans these days have gotten soft if they don't get what they want right away (TLJ) or if they get what they ask for right away (TFA).  He also said regarding the revelation that Rey's heritage is inconsequential - at the moment Ren tells Rey this, if it is ultimately true is for the next chapter in the saga where it might be "from a certain point of view" but what was important was at that moment both Ren and Rey believed it.  The reason why he did this was he was tired of the concept of jedi being from certain families and found Rey's journey to be more compelling in the story he was telling that she was not a Skywalker or Kenobi which were the most prominent theories.  It wasn't an FU to fans but I think one of the better story decisions in the film.  If she falls or succeeds, she and Ren stand on their own and that is the set up into IX.  That's really not a bad story and it is new and gutsy.  I do agree with most fans that the execution could have been better.

 

The question was also asked about Leia's resurrection.  The way he described it was Leia had some power in her that even she didn't fully know at a very primitive level.  The analogy being like someone drowns and shows no further signs of life somehow something at a very primitive instinctive level like a heartbeat or they kick instinctively...just one more instinctive attempt to survive. 

 

I can't say it is a great film. It is a good film with great moments and some very poor structural/execution decisions and extremely forgettable secondary characters/subplots.
 

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I agree, but I also think the only major flaw of the film, which affected the execution of some scenes in a negative way, was the pacing. The film was not too long in general, but I would have given some subplots more running time, so that they seem more important, but I would also have shortened the end, because it should have ended on an open note and with more tension, but instead at the end it was pretty concluded and then they tried to open it again with the last scene featuring the child with the broom.

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7 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I agree, but I also think the only major flaw of the film, which affected the execution of some scenes in a negative way, was the pacing. The films was not too long in general, but I would have given some subplots more running time, so that they seem more important, but I would also shortened the end, because it should have ended on a open note and with more tension, but instead at the end it was pretty concluded and then they tried to open it again with the last scene featuring the child with the broom.

 

The end scene is supposed to represent that throughout this film, Luke was against the concept of Luke, the legend, where ultimately broom boy was showing these stories had spread and others were inspired by that legend during a time of hopelessness.  Reluctantly, Luke transcended the person to become Spartacus.  It is sort of hinted at in TFA when Rey tells Han she thought Luke was a myth.  This is really a far more satisfying story than having Luke be the headmaster at Hogwart's school of wizards and jedi.  I think this is a very solid and fitting mortal end to the character...as a legend...and beautifully shot with the twin sunsets.

 

Interesting side note, the yoda puppet is not the exact same one used in ESB.  It is a recreation of that puppet.  Hamill says there were many mechanical problems with the original 1980 puppet so I assume the state of the original puppet is poor.  They remade one to the same specifications as 1980's yoda arguing this is the only yoda Luke ever knew, not the general yoda of PT or CW.

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9 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

 

Dude, I was being satirical. Lighten up. You honestly have got to be one of the most loathsome posters on these forums.

You are probably a hipster. Gia has a lot of those kind of fans.

 

Loathsome, loathsome, I like the sound of it.

 

You probably block me!

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Second viewing last night, It was better than the first one. Now I can definitely say this one is pretty damn good, not quite reaching great. Somehow almost none of the flaws bothered me this time, other than the pacing maybe. Even on Canto Bight, although I knew it was completely pointless plot-wise, I was just along for the ride. And many mistakes people pointed out here were obviously explained. The one I can think of right now: Snoke is sending his fleet out to take control of the remains of the Republic systems. It says so in the bloody crawl. It doesn't say they have taken over. How did people come to that assumption in the first place?

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On 12/22/2017 at 7:49 PM, Fancyarcher said:

 

Visually it's easily one of the strongest Star Wars films. I was stunned several points by the effects in my theater. Impressive. 

 

Sound design and especially sound editing are also very strong with this one, as has been with The Force Awakens.

 

Sadly, neither is enough. And given how much of the cinematography is done in a virtual environment, praising the film's visuals only goes so far.

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That should be appreciated as part of the special effects work, not as cinematography. Outside of a few unusual cases (Avatar being the most egregious), films that utilize virtual cameras are not major contenders for "Best Cinematography" because the whole point of cinematography is the execution: arranging the mise-en-scene set decorations, setting up the desired lighting scheme, blocking the scene, planning the camera movement, getting the cameramen to do it just right  - when its done virtually, that's not a difficulty because you can:

put the camera anywhere you want at any time.

light and populate the frame around the selected camera-angle, rather than the other way around.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

Sound design and especially sound editing are also very strong with this one, as has been with The Force Awakens.

 

Sadly, neither is enough. And given how much of the cinematography is done in a virtual environment, praising the film's visuals only goes so far.

 

I agree. The scene with the Fathiers reminded me of Wargs chasing Dwarves to Rivendell. Not impressive CGI.

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Incorrect and outdated twaddle! Very often for extended virtual camera sequences the DP is consulted or even storyboards the camera movements and has a voice in dictating the look, as it has to mesh well with the "real life" filmed sequences.

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11 minutes ago, LOTRHobbitFan said:

The scene with the Fathiers reminded me of Wargs chasing Dwarves to Rivendell. Not impressive CGI.

 

Interesting. Not the comparison I would make.

 

The Warg chase is a bright ungraded, daytime, location shoot with CG elements (the Wargs) inserted. 

 

The Fathiers is a dark, downgraded CG shot (or possibly a composite shot?), a clear attempt to hide the subpar effects, to the point that the its hard to see what's going on.

 

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Incorrect and outdated twaddle! Very often for extended virtual camera sequences the DP is consulted or even storyboards the camera movements and has a voice in dictating the look, as it has to mesh well with the "real life" filmed sequences.

 

Of course there's a DP. But since the camera movement is programmed into the storyboard, rather than performed by a camera man, the execution isn't worthy of appreciation. You can appreciate the choice of camera position, but not the lengths which were required to achieve it, because there are none.

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10 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

You are probably a hipster. Gia has a lot of those kind of fans.

 

Loathsome, loathsome, I like the sound of it.

 

You probably block me!

 

The trolls are getting so weak these days.

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6 hours ago, Holko said:

Second viewing last night, It was better than the first one. Now I can definitely say this one is pretty damn good, not quite reaching great. Somehow almost none of the flaws bothered me this time, other than the pacing maybe. Even on Canto Bight, although I knew it was completely pointless plot-wise, I was just along for the ride. And many mistakes people pointed out here were obviously explained. The one I can think of right now: Snoke is sending his fleet out to take control of the remains of the Republic systems. It says so in the bloody crawl. It doesn't say they have taken over. How did people come to that assumption in the first place?

Of course it's pretty good. I personally think it has more flaws than TFA, but this is because it is more daring and so there are also more positively outstanding things. So it is still hard to say which film is better. Nevermind, they are both great and I am looking forward to how the hardcore fans' view on TLJ will be in 10 years!

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Sound design and especially sound editing are also very strong with this one, as has been with The Force Awakens.

 

Sadly, neither is enough. And given how much of the cinematography is done in a virtual environment, praising the film's visuals only goes so far.

 

The CGI and special effects were absolutely great though. For what it was too, I thought the cinematography was pretty good. In the SFX department TLJ very much shined. 

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I recall not liking some of the CG in Canto Bight, Crait and the Finn/Phasma showdown. In the practical department, the first few shots of Yoda looked off to me, and the puppetry behind the Porgs was sometimes very obvious.

 

Other than that, good production value was a given with this film.

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5 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

If one makes it a point to consistently act like an ill-mannered troll on these forums on a regular basis, then he deserves to be referred to as such!

Thanks for the insults newbie. 

 

I was pleased by the quality of the Yoda effects The practicality gave the film a bit more of what it needed.

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But the cgi yoda always looked terrible. Yoda in TLJ  brought strong emotions to the crowd. I rarely rave about effects anymore. 

 

I believe the Best Visual effect Oscar should be discontinued. It should only be given for revolutionary effect. 

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4 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

But the cgi yoda always looked terrible. Yoda in TLJ  brought strong emotions to the crowd. I rarely rave about effects anymore. 

 

I believe the Best Visual effect Oscar should be discontinued. It should only be given for revolutionary effect. 

 

Agreed, brother!

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16 minutes ago, Trent B said:

At the same time it's annoying how many people are pissed at the way how the movie is.  It's just a movie for crying out loud.

 

People expect quality entertainment for the money they spend on it and the time they've invested into following this franchise. If one entry fails to meet the criteria of even basic good storytelling, and even, in this case, feels like a middle finger to the fanbase, then they have good reason to complain.

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1 hour ago, Denise Bryson said:

 

People expect quality entertainment for the money they spend on it and the time they've invested into following this franchise. If one entry fails to meet the criteria of even basic good storytelling, and even, in this case, feels like a middle finger to the fanbase, then they have good reason to complain.

Not entirely, this film has all the familiar Star Wars elements and a decent story that has taken some risks. The online backlash and negative reception started like any propaganda, like a domino effect - a game of Chinese Whispers. All of a sudden "True Star Wars Fans" and casual movie-goers on each end of the spectrum seem to become film connoisseurs and critics and thusly is anything posted online something to be torn apart in a 'Trial by Social Media'. 

 

One slight deviation from what fans theorized about in the two-year interim and SHAZAM! "Rian Johnson is a hack", "The Last Jedi should be stripped from Canon and remade". Complete and utter Bantha Fodder and it implicates every whining little bitch in this bizarre social media circus for the soulless spoilt savages they are.

 

Ticket prices are a bitch, but nothing in comparison to all the idiots who threw this film under the bus but supported a majority of the trash that dominates theatres now...

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Nevertheless, the criticism of this film isn't without reason. It has pacing issues in all parts of all three acts, some of the characters aren't fully realized, parts of the film lack polish, the comedy - while funny - doesn't always feel in place, and the film feels subversive to a fault.

 

That's a lot of (admittedly small) things wrong with a film that people were hoping would be excellent, and that has excellent parts. Makes it all the more jarring.

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you "agree with the pacing" being an issue?

 

Anyway, its far from the film's only weak spot and, unfortunately, all these minor quibbles form into something substantial.

 

Still a good movie, just not the great movie that people were hoping for.

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