Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

[Incanus 5,801]

Interesting...I never drew that connection before. I'm not entirely sure I buy it, since these are just three notes that JW tends to use in a lot of his scores. But interesting nonetheless. (I do need to point out, however, that your second two examples from "General Grievous" are just plain wrong. They're not the same motif at all - in fact, they're the one that I've been talking about with Taikomochi, and there is no relation there, except for the basicmost idea that you start with a note, go up a little, and then go down a little.)

Yes you are correct about those two examples being wrong. Perhaps I was listening with too much intention of finding a connection.

But on the other hand we should not dismiss JWs motifs just as something "typical" to him and just part of his style and construction.

This small motif there in the other examples is clearly intentional and similar to the Separatist motif from Episode II another very typical JW bad guy theme.

It is funny how we underestimate JW because we expect him always to write those flashy, catchy and very identifiable long lined melodies for themes and when he composes something short and motivic we have difficult time believing those things to have musical meaning in the context of the film. I do not deny that these smaller fragments are more difficult to identify than your regular "state and restate theme" but we should not think that he is not capable of that level of subtleness.

[Bowie 46]

Presentation of score on OST - 3/5

Usage of score in-film - 3.5/5

Complete score and rerecorded material - 4/5

Complete original score - 4.5/5

One of the great injustices from original score conception and composition to final presentation.

Also, "Battle of the Heroes" really should have been a bit more creatively titled, a la "Ballet of the Heroes" or "Mutiny & Destiny" or "Battle of the Chosen Ones" or wtf/e

[Jeshopk 8]

That's stupid, there are innovations in music It's just that John Williams is not the one to look for if you want to hear that

Please indicate one groundbreaking piece of music of the past 5 years, and I'll concede. Not innovation, but groundbreaking, as we were talking about. Even Williams has "innovated" as recently as Soundings, but we had been using the term "groundbreaking". And if you say the new Joker theme, or something by Coldplay I think I'll have to shoot you

Also, "Battle of the Heroes" really should have been a bit more creatively titled, a la "Ballet of the Heroes" or "Mutiny & Destiny" or "Battle of the Chosen Ones" or wtf/e

a rose by any other name

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Please indicate one groundbreaking piece of music of the past 5 years, and I'll concede. Not innovation, but groundbreaking, as we were talking about. Even Williams has "innovated" as recently as Soundings, but we had been using the term "groundbreaking". And if you say the new Joker theme, or something by Coldplay I think I'll have to shoot you

[Mr. Breathmask 566]

You mean this?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

I recently found out the News Bleeps are even used in Namibia, Africa!

Take that Hopkins!

[Jeshopk 8]

Please indicate one groundbreaking piece of music of the past 5 years, and I'll concede. Not innovation, but groundbreaking, as we were talking about. Even Williams has "innovated" as recently as Soundings, but we had been using the term "groundbreaking". And if you say the new Joker theme, or something by Coldplay I think I'll have to shoot you

I've been owned! Or at least roasted.

You are king of the board. I must concede. For those that don't remember, my Angry Nerdesque rant about JWFANS favoring this news jingle over JW's own Mission theme caused the swear filter. Oh man.

[SF1_freeze 136]

5 stars for the Complete Score and 4.5 for the OST presentation

[Williamsfan301 12]

Are there any uses of Grievous' theme besides the beginning of the duel, going to utapau, and his first appearance?

Grievous was an unnecessary character.

[Datameister 2,279]

Grievous was an unnecessary character.

That has little to do with appreciation for his theme, but while we're on the topic...I think he comes off as unnecessary with the way the films are constructed, but he could have been a very interesting predecessor/foil to Darth Vader.

[Henry B 51]

Grievous was an unnecessary character.

That has little to do with appreciation for his theme, but while we're on the topic...I think he comes off as unnecessary with the way the films are constructed...

Not to mention the way he was written, animated and voiced.

[Taikomochi 1,222]

Are there any uses of Grievous' theme besides the beginning of the duel, going to utapau, and his first appearance?

Grievous was an unnecessary character.

Nah, I think he was necessary in the parallels Lucas was trying to create between the prequels and originals. Grievous, for the first half of the film, was Darth Vader's parallel, until Darth Vader himself showed up.

[Datameister 2,279]

Not to mention the way he was written, animated and voiced.

I like all three, though the writing could certainly be better in some places. But considering this is a Star Wars prequel, he actually doesn't fare so badly.

[Williamsfan301 12]

Are there any uses of Grievous' theme besides the beginning of the duel, going to utapau, and his first appearance?

Grievous was an unnecessary character.

Nah, I think he was necessary in the parallels Lucas was trying to create between the prequels and originals. Grievous, for the first half of the film, was Darth Vader's parallel, until Darth Vader himself showed up.

Ok. Then get rid of Dooku.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,415]

Dooku was played by Christopher Lee. AOTC and ROTS needed more of him, not less!

[Williamsfan301 12]

Dooku was played by Christopher Lee. AOTC and ROTS needed more of him, not less!

Agreed. He's why Grievous is unnecessary.

[Taikomochi 1,222]

Whether it was a good one or not, it was a fairly intricate story. Who died and when were necessary. Dooku died to show Palpatine's influence over Anakin and Anakin's malice. Grievous just picked up from there.

[Williamsfan301 12]

Whether it was a good one or not, it was a fairly intricate story. Who died and when were necessary. Dooku died to show Palpatine's influence over Anakin and Anakin's malice. Grievous just picked up from there.

Dooku was a great character who was killed off too early. So, early, in fact that his character never had time to be filled out. You can kill him. Anakin can kill him. Just much later.

[Datameister 2,279]

Ok. Then get rid of Dooku.

Would have worked for me. I would have liked to have seen Darth Maul be the villain for TPM and Grievous take over for AOTC and ROTS. (That's assuming the overall structure of the PT remained the same...but I'd like to change that, too. Anakin really should have turned in Episode II, in which case Grievous would have only been in that film.)

[Williamsfan301 12]

Ok. Then get rid of Dooku.

Would have worked for me. I would have liked to have seen Darth Maul be the villain for TPM and Grievous take over for AOTC and ROTS.

That would have worked too.

[Wojo 2,456]

I think Grievous was only there to serve as the endgame for a character who would be more explored by the cartoon series about the Clone Wars. (and sell action figures)

He also shows how a prototype life support system could sustain an organic lifeform within a droid body after the organic body all but died. But this is a point that casual viewers of the movie, without any exposure to EU dribble such as the cartoon shows, would not get at all, and then think Grievous was just another droid, albeit one with fancy saber skills, a bad cough, and a heart inside his ribcage. The parallel to Darth Vader both as a lackey and as a droid-man is hazy based on the movie alone.

[Henry B 51]

He also shows how a prototype life support system could sustain an organic lifeform within a droid body after the organic body all but died. But this is a point that casual viewers of the movie, without any exposure to EU dribble such as the cartoon shows, would not get at all, and then think Grievous was just another droid, albeit one with fancy saber skills, a bad cough, and a heart inside his ribcage. The parallel to Darth Vader both as a lackey and as a droid-man is hazy based on the movie alone.

Yes. Lucas clearly had Grievous in mind as a parallel to Vader, but you wouldn't know this if you hadn't read all the comics about Grievous's life story. The film is devoid of symbolism. Grievous, a cyborg, is superceded by Vader, a cyborg, but in the film nothing at all is made of it. Maybe if Grievous had commented on Anakin's synthetic arm during the opening battle... that alone would have given the audience so much more to work with.

[Wojo 2,456]

That is the biggest failure of the prequel trilogy: lack of storytelling through symbolism or subtlety when straightforwardness is insufficient. The classic trilogy really had no lack of direct storytelling, because it wasn't a very difficult story to wade through after all was said and done.

But the prequel trilogy piled so much intrigue, subterfuge, and plot twists with very little exposition as to what was going on. You couldn't understand some of the major plot points without delving into the expanded universe for help, and that marks as a very large failure of the prequel trilogy as motion pictures.

[Datameister 2,279]

Agreed. The PT is actually ripe with potential for those sorts of things, and when you're aware of it all, it makes them a little easier to enjoy, but it also makes the failures of the trilogy even more evident.

[Williamsfan301 12]

Here here...

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

But the prequel trilogy piled so much intrigue, subterfuge, and plot twists with very little exposition as to what was going on. You couldn't understand some of the major plot points without delving into the expanded universe for help, and that marks as a very large failure of the prequel trilogy as motion pictures.

Actually, I didn't have any trouble following the major plot points without any outside explanations, neither did my dad.

[Ollie 1,136]

That is the biggest failure of the prequel trilogy: lack of storytelling through symbolism or subtlety when straightforwardness is insufficient. The classic trilogy really had no lack of direct storytelling, because it wasn't a very difficult story to wade through after all was said and done.

But the prequel trilogy piled so much intrigue, subterfuge, and plot twists with very little exposition as to what was going on. You couldn't understand some of the major plot points without delving into the expanded universe for help, and that marks as a very large failure of the prequel trilogy as motion pictures.

Which is why these films called for a much more competent director and for Lucas to take a back seat, kinda like he did for Empire.

[Wojo 2,456]

Which is why these films called for a much more competent director and for Lucas to take a back seat, kinda like he did for Empire.

Then what happened to the guy between 1977 and 1999? Why did finding the sweet spot on the Star Wars cash cow change George Lucas from a visionary director into a lazy director? I'll say he was more than competent on the 1977 original. Unless he did not direct Star Wars.

What was he smoking when he struck gold and directed the most groundbreaking and critically acclaimed movie in the entire Star Wars saga: the original?

[Ollie 1,136]

Well I can tell you that technology thankfully limited Lucas on Star Wars. He had a smaller budget and had to improvise. And that worked out for the best.

Gary Kurtz's departure after Empire also created a huge void. You can see the foundation begin to crumble in ROTJ. A very lazy effort with half the cast sleepwalking thru their performances. Even Yoda looks bored.

[Williamsfan301 12]

Which is why these films called for a much more competent director and for Lucas to take a back seat, kinda like he did for Empire.

Then what happened to the guy between 1977 and 1999? Why did finding the sweet spot on the Star Wars cash cow change George Lucas from a visionary director into a lazy director?

Got divorced and became a dad.

[Ollie 1,136]

I will also add that on the prequels Lucas had no one to answer to. He had complete control over everything.

[JoeinAR 1,953]

ah the Michael Jackson/Elvis Presley/Tom Cruise syndrome, a person needing to be told no, but not having someone ballsy enough to do it.

[Mr. Breathmask 566]

Which is why these films called for a much more competent director and for Lucas to take a back seat, kinda like he did for Empire.

Then what happened to the guy between 1977 and 1999?

Gary Kurtz' departure from the Star Wars series, the difficulties Lucas had making The Empire Strikes Back even after directing the highest-grossing most spectacular industry-changing movie of all time (let's face it, he did) and the succes of Raiders of the Lost Ark, which made Lucas think the audience wanted a third Star Wars film more aimed at simple entertainment rather than heartfelt storytelling.

So forget 1999. It went wrong somewhere around 1981 or 1982.

Temple of Doom was good though, despite Spielberg's insistence to the contrary.

[Wojo 2,456]

So Raiders of the Lost Ark was bad for Star Wars? Intriguing.

[Williamsfan301 12]

Temple of Doom was good though, despite Spielberg's insistence to the contrary.

I think that movie leaves a bad taste in Spielberg's mouth because of the state of his personal life at the time. He's said that he and George really got rid of a lot of personal darkness in that film.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

They lost, we won!

Listening to this now. So awesome.

Wait, this isn't the Shadows of the Empire thread.

[John Crichton 4]

Even Yoda looks bored.

Jabba sure hammed it up though.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

5 stars.

My favorite of the prequel scores. I listened to it everyday that summer, I can say that about very few cds.

[Marc 822]

5m3 and 7m1  🎺 📯  
 

 

 

 

[Marc 822]

And now 7m4 

 

 

[SilverTrumpet 642]

Fantastic as always!

[Marc 822]

1M3
 

 

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,489]

Thank you for sharing this really good performance. Now I'm on my way to listen the full score again

[Marc 822]

1M4

 

[aj_vader 568]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

1M4

 

Fantastic work as usual! 

 

Love hearing all the exposed brass like this. It actually feels more like the mix of the original trilogy, the close up more brutal sound from the likes of 'The Snow Battle' etc. 

 

I've always imagined what a original trilogy approach to the prequels may sound like and this is the closest to that experience. Thank you! 

 

Love these. 

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,489]

Another great performance, thanks for sharing this

[Marc 822]

20 hours ago, aj_vader said:

Fantastic work as usual! 

 

Love hearing all the exposed brass like this. It actually feels more like the mix of the original trilogy, the close up more brutal sound from the likes of 'The Snow Battle' etc. 

 

I've always imagined what a original trilogy approach to the prequels may sound like and this is the closest to that experience. Thank you! 

 

Love these. 

Thanks a lot, glad you're enjoying these !
Next one will be 1M4a ("Get' em R2!") and I'll have covered the whole Battle Over Coruscant Sequence 

[Marc 822]

1M4a is here