What Is The Last Score You Listened To? (older scores)

[filmmusic 1,839]

 

A couple of timeless themes, and you have one of the better Horner soundtracks.

I may be in the minority, but I simply LOVE the song too!

[Tom Guernsey 2,287]

Hook is obviously a wonderful score but good to listen to one of its finest antecedents. The Gamba album is a good selection of highlights (longer then Kojian but shorter than Stromberg) and a generally fine performance although the brass isn’t perhaps quite as crisp as the others but the recorded sound is terrific. The Previn album is only highlights but is played superbly and wonderfully recorded.

 

[Andy 4,141]

On 13/12/2023 at 9:44 AM, Tallguy said:

Not really a surprise but...

 

 

 

Sneakers and Battle Beyond the Stars. (Thank you Spotify.) I wrote about Sneakers on the Sneakers thread. It's always been a favorite and now it's more so. A much wanted expansion. Probably a Horner top five.

 

I don't know why I never got into Battle Beyond the Stars. I mean, it's Horner 101. Was the old disc THAT bad? (I've got the Battle / Humanoids disc. Whoever did that one.) I've played it a few times but it never grabbed me. Suddenly I'm a little obsessed!

 

Of the three "Horner Space Opera" scores - this, Wrath of Khan, Krull (four if you count Search for Spock) this one has the most "contemporary" influences. Bits of Goldsmith's Klingon Battle, Princess Leia's Theme, TIE Fighter Attack sprinkled in there. It's wild to listen to The Love Theme as a nearly primordial Horner love theme and hear it kind of morph into a far more Williams sound at around the one minute mark. And there are a few text book Hornerisms that stand much closer to other inspirations ("theft" if you must) than later iterations do. I would never draw a line between any other Horner score and Star Wars. (Ok, there's a brief moment in The Rocketeer.) But there's a moment in First Flight at around two minutes that sounds like basic "Horner sailing ships in space" that's used a lot in his Star Trek scores that here is obviously taken from the "Don't get cocky!" moment in Star Wars. Mind. Blown. (I'm sure this movie was temped within an inch of it's life with Williams.)

 

BUT: It's SO JOYOUS. It out Wrath of Khans Wrath of Khan. It lilts. It dances. It flies! Shad's Entrance is the kind of Horner moment that I want to go on forever. Those HONRS. Back when that was Horner's calling card. If he'd only written that one he would be one of my favorite composers. (Imagine the world where James Horner is Craig Safran!) The structure of the main title would be repeated to even greater effect in Wrath of Khan (because of the added recognition of Courage's theme) but it's still amazing here. It's the anti-Williams: Start quiet, mysterious, and haunting and THEN make an entrance. It's Star Wars meets Patton. He'd spend the next ten years refining these ideas into some of my all-time favorite scores.

 

Again, I don't know why this is hitting me so differently than when I bought the first CD twenty plus years ago. But it is. And it's great!

 

p.s. My daughter complained on the way to school this morning "Do we have to listen to Sneakers EVERY day?"

This has been the year of Horner reissues, and I’m all in.  They got me with the Early Horner stuff like Deadly Blessing and Humanoids.  BBTS absolutely crystallized it for me.  It’s the best of the bunch, and maybe my favorite expansion of the year. (Sorry Hook, but I’m saving you for Christmas).   BBTS is so much dang fun and infectious.  When I spot the temp track love, I smile rather than eyeroll.  

[Naïve Old Fart 9,552]

"What do you want?"

"Oh, just peace on Earth, good will to men".

"We are the United States Government. We don't do that sort of thing!".

A great score, from a really good film.

 

[Tallguy 3,401]

Sneakers:

 

Spoiler

Who hear recognized that it was James Earl Jones the moment he spoke on the phone early in the film

 

[LSH 969]

 

In anticipation of Society Of The Snow (which I'm genuinely looking forward to), I thought I'd revisit one of my early James Newton Howard favourites. 

 

This was such a great era for JNH. Within just three years he scored this, The Fort Of Saint Washington*, The Fugitive, Falling Down, Dave, Intersection*, Wyatt Earp, Outbreak, Waterworld, and Restoration.

 

And yet, within that relentless schedule, he managed to provide us with one of the best TV opening themes of all time.

 

Man, what a champ. 

 

 

 

*under-rated and under-mentioned

[Edmilson 7,471]

Mighty Joe Young - James Horner

 

 

All this Horner talk made me want to revisit this score (or listen to it for the first time, I dunno). 

 

So this is the origin of those annoying Avatar ethnic chants. It's well done here, but not my kind of music.

 

Fortunately, unlike Avatar, the rest of the orchestral writing here is much closer to what I like to hear from Horner. I have a soft spot for his 90s/early to mid 2000s scores, it's my favorite Horner era even though 9 out of 10 film music fans say that his 80s music is better.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

The end credits cue for that one is all you need, even if it’s probably two minutes too long.

[Edmilson 7,471]

I dunno, I honestly prefer the action music from the middle of the album than the ethnic chanting from the first and last cues - they're just not my thing. And I'm partial to Horner's post-Apollo 13 (or should we say post-Sneakers?) action music with lots of snare drums, dramatic fast trings and constantly ramping up the tension.

[Thor 7,519]

 

Outside of his amazing debut score AMAZON, a lot of Alan Williams isn't that great, IMO. I mean, compositionally it's fine, but it's hampered by being synth approximations of orchestral music due to budgetary reasons. Thankfully, there are also works where this isn't much of an issue, or where it's somewhat down-scaled in favour of appealing electronic/pop composed on its own terms. This is one of those examples, an obscure documentary from 2001 with tone elements reminiscent of 80s Bøhren & Åserud.

[JTN 2,042]

I love everything Abel Korzeniowski. EMILY is no different. This guy’s style just resonates with me. And he is a lovely person to talk to.
Along with Dario Marianelli, he is my favourite film composer of the new generation. 
 

[Edmilson 7,471]

 

I don't care about the haters, this is one of my top 10 Horner scores ever. I love the string motif that begins the score, it's even better and more evocative here than in Braveheart. Its first appearance on the beginning of the score is mesmerizing, and then every time it reoccurs is impactful. There's some suspense material, but the final three tracks (Betrayal, Danilov's Confession and Tanya - End Credits) are about 25 minutes of some of the most epic, dramatic and emotional Horner material ever.

 

The final track in particular might be my single favorite Horner End Credits suite ever, alongside Braveheart. Seriously, I'd be open to learning how to be a maestro only to conduct this piece for orchestra and choir. I don't know how to read music, but I can do it like Cruise conducting the M: I theme though, just teach me what moves with my arms I'm supposed to make, lol.

 

I'm thankful Horner didn't bring Will Jennings and some pop musician to write another corny end titles song based on his theme for this though.

[Thor 7,519]

5 hours ago, JTW said:

I love everything Abel Korzeniowski. EMILY is no different. This guy’s style just resonates with me. And he is a lovely person to talk to.
Along with Dario Marianelli, he is my favourite film composer of the new generation. 

 

I'm a fan too, but he hasn't really wowed me in 10 years, I'm sorry to say. Before that, though, he could almost do no wrong.

 

20 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I don't care about the haters, this is one of my top 10 Horner scores ever.

 

Haters will hate. It's a great score, SCHINDLER'S LIST soundalike and all (which is what most people have tended to point out about it over the years).

[Edmilson 7,471]

19 minutes ago, Thor said:

Haters will hate. It's a great score, SCHINDLER'S LIST soundalike and all (which is what most people have tended to point out about it over the years).

About Horner supposedly quoting Williams' Schindler's List, @Jean-Baptiste Martin have a great article on his website, where he states that it's more likely that Horner was inspired by Mahler and his own scores for Balto, Apollo 13 and Titanic than Williams.

 

https://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/between-intelligence-and-sensitivity-two-dissected-untruths/

 

Honestly, the similarities with SL never bothered me that much.

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

4 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Balto, Apollo 13 and Titanic

 

But all these came after SL...

[crocodile 8,018]

Red Sonja by Ennio Morricone. I actually really enjoy this score, shame it is so brief. It actually compliments Basil Poledouris' music quite well.

 

Karol

[Jean-Baptiste Martin 254]

36 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

But all these came after SL...

I hear it in Sneakers (1992) in the track Playtronics Break-in (2:12).

[JTN 2,042]

11 hours ago, Thor said:

 

I'm a fan too, but he hasn't really wowed me in 10 years, I'm sorry to say. Before that, though, he could almost do no wrong.

 

 

Haters will hate. It's a great score, SCHINDLER'S LIST soundalike and all (which is what most people have tended to point out about it over the years).

Is there a score where you actually prefer the expanded (complete) version to the OST?

 

—————

INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE - What an INCREDIBLE score! 

[Thor 7,519]

39 minutes ago, JTW said:

Is there a score where you actually prefer the expanded (complete) version to the OST?

 

The STAR WARS anthology box, as we were just talking about in the other thread. The perfect balance - justifiably expanded from the OSTs, but not as excessive as the subsequent 2CD sets. Also, the RAIDERS DCC, for same reasons. It helps that these were my first soundtracks of these scores.

 

Also certain score-only releases of things that only had a score cut or two on a "songtrack". But not sure they count.

[JTN 2,042]

26 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

The STAR WARS anthology box, as we were just talking about in the other thread. The perfect balance - justifiably expanded from the OSTs, but not as excessive as the subsequent 2CD sets. Also, the RAIDERS DCC, for same reasons. It helps that these were my first soundtracks of these scores.

 

Also certain score-only releases of things that only had a score cut or two on a "songtrack". But not sure they count.

Thanks!

 

But when you watch a film, you hear all the music that was written for it, right? If you liked the music in the film, wouldn’t you want to hear the same music on the soundtrack? 

[Thor 7,519]

44 minutes ago, JTW said:

Thanks!

 

But when you watch a film, you hear all the music that was written for it, right? If you liked the music in the film, wouldn’t you want to hear the same music on the soundtrack? 

 

No, not really. All I care about is how the soundtrack in front of me holds up on its own, for what it is. The film is never my point-of-departure for soundtrack listening.

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

No, not really. All I care about is how the soundtrack in front of me holds up on its own, for what it is. The film is never my point-of-departure for soundtrack listening.

 

So you want the music with dialogue and sound effects.

[Schilkeman 964]

I have an essay I’m trying to get my head around writing about how soundtrack albums are uniquely tied to the album format and the studio recording setting.

 

They’re art music concept albums. They treat the music of the film as absolute music, not program music, and attempt to tie elements of “musical interest” together to form a level of musical cohesion lacking from the score as is.

 

But they are also intrinsically tied to the format they’re released on, and limited in scope by the run-time of the medium carrying them.

 

It’s a tricky and thoughtful process to assemble an album of film music, requiring encyclopedic knowledge of one’s own score, great musical instincts, and a showman’s sense of entertaining vicissitude. John Williams is simply the best at this.

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

1 minute ago, Schilkeman said:

I have an essay I’m trying to get my head around writing

 

Nice try, Pierre.

[Schilkeman 964]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Nice try, Pierre.

I am neither asking for help, nor calling everyone idiots. It’s also not a thesis, just an idea I have. Nice try at a gotcha, I suppose.

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

2 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

I am neither asking for help, nor calling everyone idiots. It’s also not a thesis, just an idea I have. Nice try at a gotcha, I suppose.

 

It was a silly joke, mate. :)

[JTN 2,042]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

No, not really. All I care about is how the soundtrack in front of me holds up on its own, for what it is. The film is never my point-of-departure for soundtrack listening.

But it's like skipping certain segments of an opera that was written for a story. The composer had a narrative, a frame that he built the evolving themes on, the interconnecting musical tissue so to speak that serves that particular narrative that together become a whole. Taking out any part of it makes the musical narrative break and become incomplete.

 

Writing film music is not writing absolute music like a symphony or concerto, here the score always serves the story of the film. When you watch a film, you hear all the music that was written to every scene that the director intended to have music. It's only logical that if you listen to the soundtrack, you want to listen to the same amount of music in chronological order as it was intended for the film, that way you can relive the entire film without the visuals, just like in the case of an opera.

But even with classical music, you wouldn't want to skip a movement of a concerto, because only as a whole does the musical narrative make sense, that's the way the composer wrote it. 

[Tallguy 3,401]

Ah, people trying to change Thor's mind on how he appreciates and listens to film scores. I can set my watch by it.

 

I love an expanded film score, me. But there are times when the album is the way to go. Except when it isn't.

[Edmilson 7,471]

3 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I love an expanded film score, me. But there are times when the album is the way to go. Except when it isn't.

Exactly. 

 

I MOSTLY prefer expanded albums, but I do admit there are several instances where the OST is a better listening experience because it removes several boring "suspense music" and uninteresting cues where nothing happens, which makes the actual great parts of the score shine a little brighter. On the other hand, an expanded edition can make the score breathe a little, add variety and make the musical storytelling a lot clearer.

 

Every side of this discussion has its own arguments, so I believe it's important to keep an open mind.

[Thor 7,519]

 

I love the wistful main theme, in particular (with some synth chords reminiscent of Preisner's VALLEY OF SHADOWS). The rest of the score walks the line between lounge and experimental, but definitely one of the highlights in my recent Lai walkthrough. "In Chiesa" is gorgeous. A bit of 70s Morricone in there too.

[JTN 2,042]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

Ah, people trying to change Thor's mind on how he appreciates and listens to film scores.

I'm not trying to change his mind, how he listens his soundtracks is his business. I'm just explaining why listening to complete scores should be the norm for every film music listener.

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

there are several instances where the OST is a better listening experience because it removes several boring "suspense music" and uninteresting cues where nothing happens

If that music was intended for the film and is in the film, it means it was written for a specific reason, to tell the story, hence it's an integral part of the score.

You don't leave out the "boring parts" of a Beethoven symphony's adagio movement just because it's "slow". It's an important part of the composition, without it the work isn't the same. 

 

Now I'm not saying that by listening to the OST you can't enjoy a score. Far from it. I'm saying that a score should be listened to as it was written for the film, every cue that was composed and heard in the film. Otherwise we only get an incomplete work that only tells part of the story it was written for. 

[Schilkeman 964]

4 minutes ago, JTW said:

I'm not trying to change his mind, how he listens his soundtracks is his business. I'm just explaining why listening to complete scores should be the norm for every film music listener.

My own council will I keep on how to listen to music.

 

Rather than assuming my way is right, and arguing with people we so freely call geniuses, I asked myself why, almost to a person, composers have gone on the record saying they prefer their music edited for a (and I’m paraphrasing here) pure listening experience (as in, alone, without the film).

 

It’s like Vaughan Williams arranging his material for Scott of the Antarctic into his 7th symphony. Only now they arrange it for albums. If we had gotten an Episode I symphony, I suspect it might be very similar to the ost.

[JTN 2,042]

12 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

My own council will I keep on how to listen to music.

I'm not trying to change your mind, either. Relax, buddy.

 

When we have 80-minute CDs and specialty labels that produce 3-4 plus-CD Ultimate Edition Sets, I don't see the reason why classic scores like Star Wars or LOTR etc. couldn't be released in their entirity, every note that the composer wrote, especially every note that is in the film.

 

Same goes for classical music btw. Decca, DG, Sony etc. all have complete 20-30-CD composer, conductor, artist sets.

Beside what I've elaborated before, ultimately it's a matter of demand, and fans want to have everything from their favorite composers and their favorite works. 

[Tallguy 3,401]

16 minutes ago, JTW said:

I'm not trying to change his mind, how he listens his soundtracks is his business

 

Oh good.

 

16 minutes ago, JTW said:

I'm just explaining why listening to complete scores should be the norm for every film music listener.

 

Um, wait...

 

17 minutes ago, JTW said:

You don't leave out the "boring parts" of a Beethoven symphony's adagio movement just because it's "slow".

 

This is true. I mean, I'm sure people do, but I see what you mean. Some people leave the songs they don't like off of a tape of a rock record. Not everything is Sgt. Pepper's.

 

17 minutes ago, JTW said:

It's an important part of the composition, without it the work isn't the same. 

 

With film music taking away dialogue and sound effects also means it's not the same. If you're listening to a score without the movie by definition you are not listening to it in it's intended setting. Some film composers write music like that, too. Others (for some inexplicable reason) do not. And how lucky we are!

 

I like complete scores because I don't always think composers are the best judge of what is a good listening experience. (OTOH I can't come up with a Williams album arrangement. They're witchcraft, I tell you!)

 

1 minute ago, JTW said:

I'm not trying to change your mind, either. Relax, buddy.

 

Just saying he's not following the norm.

[Schilkeman 964]

18 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

With film music taking away dialogue and sound effects also means it's not the same. If you're listening to a score without the movie by definition you are not listening to it in it's intended setting.

Yep.
 

By the way, I’m happy that we have expansions for the people who want them. It’s always good to have options. I’m just explaining why I like it the way that I do

[JTN 2,042]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I like complete scores because I don't always think composers are the best judge of what is a good listening experience. 

True. Especially when it comes to someone as humble as JW who thinks that a large part of his scores are boring to listeners, and then MM has to tell him that it's just the opposite and his fans want all of his scores in their complete form. 

 

I want to listen to everything the composer wrote and got into the film, and as a bonus, everything he wrote that got left out. I would say I'm a completist, but as I've said before, soundtracks should be listened to like that, just like a work of classical music, in their entirity, not as incomplete excerpts.

3 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

Yep. By the way, I’m happy that we have expansions for the people who want them. It’s always good to have options. I’m just explaining why I like it the way that I do

Just like I explained why soundtracks should be listened to as complete editions, not as OSTs, but I'm not saying that whoever only listens to OSTs, are idiot(s). I'm not Pierre. 

 

Everyone listens to music the way they prefer, simple as that. I'm glad people listen to film music at all, let alone expanded editions. I agree that it's good to have options. And speaking of options, you can create your own preferable compilations out of an expanded edition any time you want. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

18 minutes ago, JTW said:

like I explained why soundtracks should be listened to as complete editions, not as OSTs, but I'm not saying that whoever only listens to OSTs, are idiot(s). I'm not Pierre. 

 

You mean you're explaining why you like to listen to soundtracks as completely editions.

[JTN 2,042]

15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

You mean you're explaining why you like to listen to soundtracks as completely editions.

No, I'm explaining why soundtracks should be listened to as complete editions, but not that they must be listened to that way. Everybody is free to listen to soundtracks the way they want to, but imho the best, optimal or ideal way if you like is to listen to them in their entirity, because that's how the composer created it for the film. 

 

With all that said, everyone is free to listen to half a score or a third of a score, or even just the end title cue, be my guest. But again, imho it would be like listening only to the first and fourth movement of a symphony. It can be enjoyable, but ultimately you're not listening to the full work, the full "story", only parts of it. Like reading the first and last chapter of a book, and not caring for the rest of the story, the character developments and other important elements. 

[Edmilson 7,471]

I mean, John Williams may think that the best way to appreciate his scores for Return of the Jedi and Temple of Doom outside of the movies are the atrocious 80s OSTs with 40 minutes of music, but I completely disagree with him. 

 

Too bad Disney thinks he's right.

[JTN 2,042]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I mean, John Williams may think that the best way to appreciate his scores for Return of the Jedi and Temple of Doom outside of the movies are the atrocious 80s OSTs with 40 minutes of music, but I completely disagree with him. 

Yes, me too. But in JW's defense, he was used to LPs and their limited runtimes in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, and he had to chop his scores down in order to fit onto the LP, even for double LPs. Since the 90s, 00s and on, he has gotten more and more fond of letting specialty labels release his old scores as expanded editions. I think that if it had been in his power, he would have released his new scores as 80+ minute OST CDs back then. But maybe he doesn't think that everything he wrote to certain films, were worth listening to on their own. The ongoing strong fan demand for his expanded scores however contradicts that notion. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

34 minutes ago, JTW said:

Like reading the first and last chapter of a book

 

I prefer that. 

[Thor 7,519]

 

Always a blanket of warm comfort is the "Spanish Delerue", here from 2004. It's a shame he's almost vanished off the scene these days.

 

And on to....

 

 

Illarremendi does a little bit of classical pastiche here, which he always does well. He was never good at suspense, much like Delerue, so those are a bit heavy on the ear. But otherwise, top stuff!

[Thor 7,519]

 

Armand Amar and Mychael Danna (just 5 years apart) are really the quintessential "professors" when it comes to the use of ethnic colours in film music. This 2005 score is another great example, with Arabic vocals and instrumentation on top of (as always with Amar) lofty, expansive backdrops. Great stuff.

[Thor 7,519]

 

Last one for the evening. The earliest Amar I have in my collection (so far, anyway), from 2004, but his strength already on full display with slow, majestic tableaux, layered strings, haunting wind instruments and often augmented with soulful voices.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Home Alone, OST. Proof why we need expansions. What a weird album. I just don't get it. It seeems impossible JW actually wanted this.

[Marian Schedenig 8,208]

The album works. But not as well as the expansion. Separating Carol of the Bells and Setting the Trap "works" - but it also completely takes away one of the score's most brilliant ideas.

[Jurassic Shark 12,086]

11 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

The album works. But not as well as the expansion. Separating Carol of the Bells and Setting the Trap "works" - but it also completely takes away one of the score's most brilliant ideas.

 

What idea are you referring to?

[GerateWohl 4,371]

Home Alone C&C floŵs very well. Much better than the OST, probably mainly due to the absence of the songs. 

[Bespin 8,484]

12 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Home Alone C&C floŵs very well. Much better than the OST, probably mainly due to the absence of the songs. 

 

The special effects on Jwfan are incredible!

 

ŵ

[Marian Schedenig 8,208]

55 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

The album works. But not as well as the expansion. Separating Carol of the Bells and Setting the Trap "works" - but it also completely takes away one of the score's most brilliant ideas.

 

What idea are you referring to?

 

Using the ostinato melody of Carol of the Bells as the basis for the intro to the trap fugato - in the film there's even church bells smoothing the transition. And of course it puts further emphasis on the Carol/Dies Irae duality.

 

Being so used to having the tracks separate on the OST, I honestly was completely unaware of the carol being used in the Williams track for the better part of two decades until I rewatched the film some time before the expansion was released. A true "mind blown" moment.