The DCU - DC Universe

[Tallguy 3,395]

I still think that for someone who didn't "understand" Superman, he made one really damn good Superman movie. Even the "murderverse" moment with Zod only happens if you understand what this means for Superman. Or maybe Snyder didn't understand it at all, maybe it was Cavil who understood it and Snyder got lucky? Unlikely but not impossible.

[Mr. Who 919]

2 hours ago, rough cut said:

I think Snyder can be a good filmmaker but he didn’t understand Superman, and initially didn’t even want to do a Superman movie.

 

He even stated as much during the MoS promo interviews, that talks with DC started after his success with Suckerpunch. DC asked him “So what would you like to do?” He answered “I’d love to do Batman.” “You can’t have Batman, but how about Superman?”

 

So it makes sense that he rushed to include the Bat at soon as MoS was a moderate success (at least bigger than Superman Returns) and he had a bit more leverage with the DC bigwigs.

If BVS had just been about Batman and Superman I think it would have been received much better. The justice league stuff felt a bit out of place.

[Tallguy 3,395]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

If BVS had just been about Batman and Superman I think it would have been received much better. The justice league stuff felt a bit out of place.

 

It can be easy to forget, even now, but it felt like they said "Superman, Batm-- THE AVENGERS! WE NEED THE AVENGERS! NOW NOW NOW NOW!"

 

And that was back when Marvel had taken five films before they tried the Big Team.

[rough cut 1,714]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

I still think that for someone who didn't "understand" Superman, he made one really damn good Superman movie. Even the "murderverse" moment with Zod only happens if you understand what this means for Superman.

I almost have to apologize to myself for getting hung up on what it means to “understand” Superman (my own words, I know, which I almost cringe upon reading)…

 

But Znyder’s/Cavill’s interpretation - especially the “kill Zod moment” - was so out of touch with the essence of Superman that it makes me want to cry.

 

The only way I can accept it is it is in an alternative universe - a murderverse (that’s a good name for it! - so that it actually kind of didn’t happen.

 

But yeah sure I mean objectively it kigtymaje his character more interesting or more empathetic or whatever… but my Superman, oh no sir!

[Jay 37,368]

3 minutes ago, rough cut said:

But yeah sure I mean objectively it kigtymaje his character more interesting or more empathetic or whatever…

 

It does what?

[Faleel 5,350]

Perhaps "Could/might make"?

[Tallguy 3,395]

I have far more problems with Jonathan Kent's death than killing Zod.

 

You can argue the end of Zod two ways: Superman would never do that or it should never have been written that way to make that the inevitable choice. I'm more forgiving of the latter. I've been reading and watching Supes my whole life. This isn't the first time he's been put in a terrible moral quandary. I don't think it's even the first time he's killed Zod.

 

There's a bunch of ways to save Jonathan (weird stuff happens around tornadoes). With Zod it comes down to "It's him, or everyone else." In Superman II Zod's target was Superman. So Superman could lead him away. In Man of Steel Zod would be just as happy if Superman left. He's going to level the city with or without him.

 

If Zod could be consistently, reliably stopped then I have no doubt that what this Clark or almost any Clark would have done. But he can't be. It's him or the people he's about to kill. And if not them then the next people.

 

And it's not like Clark takes it lightly. He doesn't dust off his hands and throw off a quip. It's one of the most emotional moments of the movie. (How that should have affected the rest of the film? Dunno. There's only so much you can do wrapping up a summer blockbuster.)

 

At every moment in Snyder's Man of Steel, Clark is SELFLESS. And if that's not Superman then I don't know what is. Even in BvS it's Martha who says "You don't owe these people a damn thing." I don't think Clark ever tells her she's right.

 

(Martha getting called to school when Clark can't control his senses is another one of my favorite Superman scenes ever.)

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

I didn’t really read Batman or Superman comics regularly, or any superhero comics much for that matter. I read comics, but superheroes mostly weren't my thing. So I don’t come into comic book movies with any really knowledge or preconceptions (or baggage) outside the basics of who the characters are from movies and pop culture. So with that caveat, I’ll say I quite enjoyed the Snyderverse, and especially liked how it was so distinguished from what Marvel is doing (and I enjoyed most of that through the Infinity Saga). I don’t know, I sort of dug the look and earnestness of it, and really liked the “Superman as alien/Greek god” spin. So I was disappointed when the Snyderverse ended.

 

I think The Flash actually looks pretty decent. At least, I hope it is b/c I don’t think there’s been a truly great comic book movie sine Endgame.

[rough cut 1,714]

@Tallguy Agree to disagree.

 

But I do agree that Jonathan’s death is also poorly handled. Or rather, Superman’s lack of action to save him.

[Tallguy 3,395]

1 hour ago, rough cut said:

@Tallguy Agree to disagree.

 

But I do agree that Jonathan’s death is also poorly handled. Or rather, Superman’s lack of action to save him.

 

Yeah, I've met folk that have agreed with me over the last TEN years. But none that have changed their minds.

 

But he doesn't do anything because Jonathan tells him not to. It would be awesome if it wasn't stupid.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

This is a pretty good video, largely about why Snyder was just all wrong (bad director casting you could say) for the character of Superman (I agree Batman was a better fit for him):

Yavar

[Tallguy 3,395]

Ok, I'm only 5 minutes into this: Re: Whedon Justice League - "Superman actually shows concern for the lives of civilians." Hold up.

 

Guys on oil rig. Kids on a school bus. Lois Lane. All the people that were going to die if he didn't give himself up to Zod. Oh, and THE PEOPLE THAT WERE GOING TO DIE IF HE DIDN'T KILL ZOD.

 

You can still have many complaints about Snyder movies, but "Superman doesn't care about people" just isn't one of them.

[Jay 37,368]

Final trailer for The Flash

 

 

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

Damn those costumes...

[Edmilson 7,466]

I can picture the mess that Twitter and YouTube are going to become because of Supergirl. One side of the discourse will label her a feminist icon and the other will complain because "she's made to be a better Superman than Cavill's Superman" and "defeated Zod faster and more efficiently than Cavill".

[rough cut 1,714]

So I saw

 

The Flash (2023) IMDb 

The good:

The Flash is a silly movie, but I enjoyed it. Some of the action reminded me of the comics of the 70s and 80s. The opening sequence in particular. It set the tone for the movie: silly comic book action and tongue-in-cheek shenanigans.
 

Ezra Miller is good as the Flash and the plot/story is good.

 

Elfman’s Batman theme is in the spotlight quite a lot which is nice. Of course, it has the downside of overshadowing any other score in the movie since none of it is as impactful as the theme from ‘89. 

 

The nostalgia bits are fun and so are the cameos. I saw it on opening day and the fans made appropriate noises in all the right places (cheers, applause and whoops!) which made the experience very enjoyable.

 

Spoiler

And speaking about nostalgia… OMG! Reeve! That cameo was short but sweet!

 

I enjoyed Gadot’s cameo as well - so much better than in Shazam 2.

 

And Cage! I can’t believe they put Cage’s Superman in here. This might go over the head on a lot of people but thank god I’ve read up on the original script that was in development in the 90’s.  It’s so good, just please just give us that movie, I don’t mind if it’s 90 minutes of wonky CGI.

 

The only cameo we didn’t get was Routh who was sorely missing from the movie. I would’ve loved a cameo from him, I even had hopes they’d let him be an active part of the plot (compared to Reeve or Cage who we basically just glimpse through a “window”) as he’s probably available for filming and seems willing to wear the cape again. But, sadly, no. Maybe they thought it would conflict with Reeve’s cameo?

 

The Supergirl plot line was probably the best part of the movie for me. I think they really nailed her whole look. The suit looks gorgeous. I’d love to see more of her further down the line.

 

Spoiler

Too bad the movie did her a disservice by leaving her story unfinished (and perpetually dead?) since the movie’s ending kinda implies that her universe is doomed to be destroyed. Kind of a bummer.

It’s not a “perfect” film, but does it have to be? I saw one headline proclaiming that “It’s not the best superhero movie”, as if that was a crime against both cinema and fans of DC/MCU. Does it have to be the best movie ever? Is it bad if it’s not? It certainly isn’t the worst one. 

 

I don’t expect every movie to see to be the best movie I’ve seen ever. Nor do I think that is a good way to approach film. What I expect is for a movie to entertain me and be logically consistent and have good acting/directing and The Flash certainly holds true to all of the above.

 

The bad:

For anybody who didn’t like Ezra Miller in the role of The Flash in The Justice League, this movie is not for you. If he annoyed you then, he’ll annoy you now - even more so since he’s now the main character, not just “the funny guy” in an ensemble. I thought his performance in TLJ was the right amount of quirky, but here, it does thread a fine line of becoming just a little bit too much.

 

The CGI was kinda questionable, especially any time they tried to do a people, even if it was just a close up of legs/feet or someone with their back towards the camera - people looked kinda rubbery a lot. And Batman’s cape as well.

 

I wanted more of the ‘89 Batmobile.

 

Spoiler

They didn’t even drive it! WTF!

 

It felt like the movie didn’t really wrap up all the loose threads in the end.

 

Spoiler

In regards to the ending - I mean, what happened to the Supergirl universe? Is she dead?

 

And what about the universe we’re left off in? Is George Clooney Batman now? Who is the kryptonian here? Sasha Calle’s Supergirl? Cavil’s Superman? Routh (I, wish!)?

But I can live with it.
 

The annoying thing is - I guess - that none of the plot points/character development will be continued because DC is rebooting the whole universe to line up with Gunn’s new vision? Which feels kinda sad. The Flash, while not a perfect movie, certainly isn’t so bad that it deserves to go down in history as a franchise killer.

[Edmilson 7,466]

If it is on EW, then it's probably official.

 

Batman movie The Brave and The Bold taps The Flash director Andy Muschietti
The film was announced earlier this year as part of James Gunn and Peter Safran's new DC slate.

 

Expect a Benjamin Wallfisch Bat-score (one where he doesn't have to quote Elfman or Zimmer) soon.

[Brónach 1,302]

On 24/05/2023 at 8:32 PM, Edmilson said:

"she's made to be a better Superman than Cavill's Superman"

 

well, it's not the fault of this bad movie that Man of Still is bad

54 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Expect a Benjamin Wallfisch Bat-score (one where he doesn't have to quote Elfman or Zimmer) soon.

 

Simply quote Shirley and Goldenthal.

[Romão 2,274]

To go from Elfman, Walker and Goldenthal to Giacchino to Wallfisch...

[Edmilson 7,466]

So apparently the crappy CGI on The Flash is by design and not the result of animators working grueling hours due to the huge demands and pressure from studios:

 

As ‘The Flash’ Visual Effects Baffle Viewers, the Film’s Director Says the VFX Are ‘Intended’ to ‘Look a Little Weird to You’

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

6 hours ago, Romão said:

To go from Elfman, Walker and Goldenthal to Giacchino to Wallfisch...

 

Exactly.

[crumbs 14,317]

Oh dear. Looking like an expensive misfire for WB.

 

The Flash Opens With Disastrous Domestic Box Office Below Black Adam

 

The Flash was being built up as the “greatest comic book movie ever” until this weekend, when it seems that things are not quite as speedy as they were made out to be. Despite the Erza Miller-led movie pulling in a decent Rotten Tomatoes score and CinemaScore of B, audiences have not exactly been flocking to see The Flash in the same way that they did for worse rated Marvel movies such as Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania.

 

The latest figures show The Flash taking a domestic gross of $24.5 million on its opening day, which puts it about $2 million behind Black Adam. Considering that movie was seen as a complete disaster in terms of its box office result, it does not bode well for The Flash being some kind of big send off for the DCEU. Currently, the film is looking to make just $60 million domestically over the weekend, which suggests trouble ahead for both Blue Beetle and Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom later this year.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Yeah, so far it is performing below expectations.

 

I would argue that it's not good to draw conclusions just out of one day though. Guardians of the Galaxy 3 also opened below expectations but it managed to recover in the following weeks even with less-than-ideal reception from the critics. Sure, The Flash may be a flop, but I still don't like this trend of "let's call it a disaster with just one day" only to generate clickbait-y headlines and Twitter rage.

[Holko 9,526]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

Looking like an expensive misfire for WB.

So nothing new then?

[A24 4,338]

Nobody was waiting for a Flash solo movie.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

31 minutes ago, AC1 said:

Nobody was waiting for a Flash solo movie.

 

I'm not waiting for a girlfriend, but I'll take one, if she comes along 

[A24 4,338]

39 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

I'm not waiting for a girlfriend, but I'll take one, if she comes along 

 

And you know what they say, Richard, people often meet the love of their life when they’re not looking.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

Tru, dat.

[crocodile 8,017]

Seen it last night. It has some fun moments but can't say it made much of an impression. The slapstick humour, while effective in places, quickly got tiresome. If the best thing about it is the (unnecessary) appearance of an elderly Batman (and his majestic theme) then it probably isn't really good. This multiverse thing doesn't excite me. I like when it's used to tell a story but this just feels desperate. One of my first thoughts when walking out was: "I just feel like watching something small".

 

Karol

[crocodile 8,017]

Well, it looks like The Flash is indeed a huge bomb with only 55-million opening weekend.

 

To be honest, I am not surprised. It is not very good at all. I can't think of a movie more desperate to please. It's quite pitiful really.

 

Karol

[Edmilson 7,466]

Lol

 

Okay, I take back what I said yersterday. An Ant-Man/Shazam level opening for a big DC character that has already appeared in the JL movies is a complete disaster, especially considering its budget and importance on current DC.

 

It may recover over the next few weeks, but I wouldn't put money on that.

[JNHFan2000 2,966]

This is not gonna get better in the weeks ahead.

 

Amd WB did it themselves, with all the early fan screenings. Which started in April!! That's 2 whole months. All the surprises were all over the internet. Miller's personal life is a big thing as well. People feeling like it won't lead to anything anyway is another.

And that B Cinemascore is bad.

I also feel for a lot of todays audience Keaton back as Batman is not as big of a deal as it is to some. And people like the Nolan/Reeves/Phillips tone of Batman more.

My biggest complaint about Batman in The Flash is why is he in the daylight. He is a character that makes the darkness and shadow his part of his arsenal.

 

Then the whole thing with the horrible VFX (which is a creative choice.. yeah right?) and WB and Gunn proclaiming it is one of the best superhero movies ever made. It just failed completely.

 

I feel DC is not gonna get back on track by throwing new movies out as quick as they can. I feel they should maybe take a break, like SW has, with theatrical things.

Blue Beetle looks like a streaming movie and we haven't seen a single frame of film from Aquaman 2.

 

DC has had too much problems and flops over the few years.

Snyder & then Cavill, WW84 flopping, Miller's personal life, Black Adam, Fisher, Geoff Johns, Walter Hamada, Shazam 2, The Suicide Squad, headless cameos, lot's of fans not being happy with Gunn.

It's getting ridiculous. They should just take a break and really look at what they want to give priorities to.

 

Build the DCU out of Reeves Batman films. Why make another Batman film, next to Batman 2 & Joker 2. Why are they not being clear on what actors they're keeping and which one not. Just dump them all and start over, or keep them all.

 

 

Sorry, bit of rant, but it's just such a mess and I need to let some thoughts out. WB just doesn't seem to know what to do with the brand.

[mstrox 6,651]

Like everybody else in the world, I haven’t seen Flash, but Keaton as Batman in this doesn’t push a single nostalgia button for me. What made those Burton Batman movies work was a very specific alchemy, of which Keaton was a huge part but still only a part.  
 

Watching the trailers and seeing the mushy CGI action shots, the art design, the tone, the lighting, one gets the impression that they could have slotted Kilmer or Clooney or Bale or Pattinson or Affleck with a Different Haircut, or like Javier Bardem or something into the same role and nothing much would have changed except for changing the specific “Chewie We’re Home” nostalgia doorbell lines.

 

I still appreciate DC for taking big weird swings, even if they usually don’t work.  I’m probably more likely to watch this in the future than either incarnation of Justice League.

[Mr. Who 919]

The movie is pretty enjoyable. I have issues with it, some of which have been discussed, but overall it’s a fun movie. The central story is solid and I liked the portrayal of Barry. The final act with Zod is messy though and the movie is quite incoherent. The personal story of Flash with his family and Iris and his Jon etc was more interesting to me than the multiverse stuff so I wish they had just made a flash movie a few years ago before doing Flashpoint that was just about Barry.
 

The score is good and had some standout moments and I like the use of the Batman Elfman material. However the lack of Zod and Superman themes from Man of Steel and the Batman theme from BVS for Affleck is a big oversight which hurts the score. If you’re going to do these callback things then at least play the correct themes, like they did with Elfman. I still haven’t figured out what the Flash theme is but it’s probably Run (this theme returns towards the end of the movie) but the theme could also be the fast string runs so I don’t know yet as I haven’t had time to listen to the OST.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I think another problem for The Flash's underperformance is that maybe regular people are tired of multiverses? It used to be more of a niche thing (Rick and Morty, Into the Spider-Verse and of course the comics) but then it went mainstream this decade and they kinda overused it: Spider-Man: No Way Home, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Everything Everyhwere All at Once, Quantumania, Across the Spider-Verse and now The Flash.

 

It became a tiresome subject matter and, even worse, a cheap way to explore people's nostalgia. The Flash is not even the first nor the best Multiverse movie of this month. Which is ironic because it was a Flash comic that introduced this concept into superhero stories.

[Mr. Who 919]

I just started listening to the Flash OST and the track Baby Shower is a blast! I hope that the thematic ideas in this cue return later in the score!

 

Update:

The Flash theme plays in Run and also in Want Some Help (on piano at 0:48). Another theme I noticed was the Emotional theme for Barry and his Family which plays in Want Some Help and Nora (where I also think there's a slow variation of the Flash theme on Piano.

[Andy 4,138]

I enjoyed it.  This ought to our the mail on the coffin of multiverse stories though, and that’s a good thing.   I had no idea they were

Spoiler

bringing back Zod

so that was pretty cool to me. (I’m the same guy who didn’t know BTTFII was going to revisit the 1955 scenes again when I saw it. )

 

There was some pretty hilarious BTTF references in it that really landed. 
 

The cameos by other Justice League players were lots of fun and I don’t see how any fan of Batman in any form can skip this. 
 

The end scene of 

Spoiler

Clooney as a Bruce Wayne 

was chef’s kiss. 
 

Of course I enjoyed Keaton with all his Keatonisms “let’s get nuts” and “how much do you weigh?”  And some of the Batman stunt work was fun to watch even though it was cg enhanced. 
 

Spoiler

Supergirl

was a nice touch, but definitely cut from the same cloth as her four predecessor. 
 

I have to say my favorite scene was the ridiculousness of the saving of the infant ward falling from the crumbling hospital.  
 

it is a very loud movie and the IMAX made my wife sick to the point where she left right while Keaton appears. 

EDIT for more:

 

OH my goodness I almost forgot they finally realized the

Spoiler

Nicholas Cage Superman

on screen. Fake looking?  Sure. But I don’t care. Bravo to them for swinging for the fences with that one. 
 

Multiverses are played out but at least this film didn’t have a boring antagonist of the Steppenwolf variety.   The stakes were large, yes, but grounded in typical Superhero humanity. In this case,

Spoiler

Barry’s mother

.  So I think while the movie is far from perfect, it got a lot of things right and made it so that you at least care for Barry.  A large accomplishment given the actor’s real life shenanigans. 

[Edmilson 7,466]

This guy will never work in the industry again, but at least he's speaking truth to power.

 

The Flash VFX Artist: If It Looks Like It Was Made in a Week, It Was

Quote

One of the main criticisms of The Flash involves its heavy use of CGI. The special effects became so divisive that director Andy Muschietti had to publicly defend the film, stating how the distorted CGI was a conscious decision. Zach Mulligan, a VFX artist who worked on The Flash, explained the reasons behind the poor CGI in The Flash.

In a video posted to his TikTok, Mulligan described how VFX companies are hired by Marvel, Warner Bros., and other studios to complete their CGI shots. In this case, Warner Bros. states how many shots they need for a sequence and the VFX studios place bids to work on the film. The workload in each shot varies, yet it’s still considered one shot in the total quantity.

“Because of this, VFX artists are forced to work relentless hours, overtime almost every day, including weekends,” Mulligan said. “If the VFX companies aren’t meeting the unrealistic expectations that these studios are setting, the risk losing out on future contracts, and there’s only so many studios that are making superhero movies anymore.”

These insane deadlines for VFX shots are happening throughout the industry. Marvel received backlash for their treatment of VFX workers on Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania. The race to put out multiple superhero projects per year across film and television to “please shareholders” is what Mulligan cites as the reason behind the poor CGI on a movie like The Flash.

“When you’re putting out this many projects with shorter turnarounds, the VFX will always look worse,” Mulligan said. “So if it looks like a VFX shot in The Flash was made in a week, it’s probably because it was.”

https://www.superherohype.com/movies/538330-the-flash-vfx-artist-week-quote

[Brónach 1,302]

everybody already knew this and it people said it and still worked

[Edmilson 7,466]

Meet the newer Supes and Lois!

 

 

‘Superman: Legacy’: James Gunn Taps David Corenswet And Rachel Brosnahan For Clark Kent And Lois Lane In DC Studios Film

[Jay 37,368]

Rachel B is a talent

[Andy 4,138]

They both look terrific!  David Corenswet is a Julliard graduate like Christopher Reeve. 
 

And his initials are DC. 

[A24 4,338]

This new Supes looks like a TV soap actor.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

Agreed, and the new Lois looks like a cover model, for Grazia.

[A24 4,338]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Agreed, and the new Lois looks like a cover model, for Grazia.

 

I don't hate that choice, despite her obvious enhancements.

 

[Faleel 5,350]

It's up to the costume and makeup departments now...

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

1 hour ago, AC1 said:

I don't hate that choice, despite her obvious enhancements.

 

... and they would be..?

[A24 4,338]

I could mention it by name but I don't want to get banned. (Tip: it's not her nose or ears)

[Jay 37,368]

There's no rules against taking about boobs

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

Personally, I didn't notice anything about her. She is invisible.