John Williams: Unpopular Opinions

[TolkienSS 409]

35 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

John Williams' Indiana Jones 5 score was more generic in-film than Lorne Balfe's Mission Impossible 7 score 

 

😂😂😂😂

 

Good satire.

I almost took it serious.

[Not Mr. Big 4,651]

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

John Williams' Indiana Jones 5 score was more generic in-film than Lorne Balfe's Mission Impossible 7 score and had waaay less identity than Ludwig Göransson's Oppenheimer.

"Generic for John Williams" and "generic for Lorne Balfe" are two entirely separate planes of existence 

[GerateWohl 4,422]

I enjoy more listening to the Dial of Destiny OST from beginning to end than listening through the whole Concorde disk of Temple of Doom. 

 

ToD has great themes and composition. But as one whole body of work I find the action music in that score really stressful at times. After all it seems I am more a fan of Williams' post Lost World 2000+ action writing.

 

[Edmilson 7,517]

9 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

After all it seems I am more a fan of Williams' post Lost World 2000+ action writing.

Me too. As great as stuff like the battles of Yavin, Hoth, Endor, Mine Car Chase etc., are, I'd much rather listen to Visitor in San Diego, The Quidditch Match (from all three HPs), Anderton's Great Escape, The Conveyor Belt (all two of them ), Tavington's Trap, etc.

 

That said, Desert Chase is awesome.

[Jurassic Shark 12,154]

On 31/03/2023 at 5:51 PM, Not Mr. Big said:

Superman and Hook are objectively the most overrated JW scores (judging by extensive twitter studies I took)

 

Superman's first act is on the level of JW's best scores. 

[Tom 4,685]

33 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I enjoy more listening to the Dial of Destiny OST from beginning to end than listening through the whole Concorde disk of Temple of Doom. 

 

ToD has great themes and composition. But as one whole body of work I find the action music in that score really stressful at times. After all it seems I am more a fan of Williams' post Lost World 2000+ action writing.

 

Yes, this is an unpopular opinion, but I think that opinion that DoD is a great score(particularly the second half, but all of it) should not be considered unpopular.  

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Superman's first act is on the level of JW's best scores. 

... and so is the second, and so is the third.

[Schilkeman 984]

12 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

... and so is the second, and so is the third.

I find it impossible to overrate Superman. 

[JTN 2,144]

Dial of Destiny is the weakest of the Indiana Jones scores. 
Superman and Hook are some of Williams’ greatest scores.

War Horse is a mediocre Williams score.

Tintin and the BFG are good, but not great. 

[Schilkeman 984]

51 minutes ago, JTW said:

Tintin and the BFG are good, but not great. 

I wholeheartedly disagree, but it seems the general consensus around here.

 

A score I just can't seem to get into is A.I. Much was made of the "revelatory" quality of the expansion, but it hasn't done a lot for me.

[Richard Penna 3,721]

I have no idea how 'unpopular' this will be, but my ordering of Indy scores is in reverse, from LC backwards. LC is Williams having the time of his life - classic set piece after set piece.

 

Which means Raiders is by a mile my least favourite. I find it too 'dry' and most of the action set pieces don't do much for me, particularly Desert Chase.

[Thor 7,578]

3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I have no idea how 'unpopular' this will be, but my ordering of Indy scores is in reverse, from LC backwards. LC is Williams having the time of his life - classic set piece after set piece.

 

Which means Raiders is by a mile my least favourite. I find it too 'dry' and most of the action set pieces don't do much for me, particularly Desert Chase.

 

We don't agree often, but we do here. Well, with some modification, because I think RAIDERS is a fantastic score too. But it can't even come close to CRUSADE. As you say, one self-contained setpiece after the other that somehow also come together very well on the OST. CRUSADE is one of my top 10 JW scores of all time. The others are not.

[JTN 2,144]

5 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I have no idea how 'unpopular' this will be, but my ordering of Indy scores is in reverse, from LC backwards. LC is Williams having the time of his life - classic set piece after set piece.

 

Which means Raiders is by a mile my least favourite. I find it too 'dry' and most of the action set pieces don't do much for me, particularly Desert Chase.

My ranking of the Indiana Jones scores:

1. Raiders

2. Last Crusade

3. Temple of Doom

4. Crystal Skull

5. Dial of Destiny

[Schilkeman 984]

If I had to rank them it would be

1. Temple of Doom

2. Last Crusade

3. Crystal Skull

4. Raiders

5. Destiny

 

But they're all great. Raiders would probably be first if the playing was better, but I also have never been super enamored with Desert Chase. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

I'm afraid that the Indiana Jones films are a sad case of diminishing returns.

I've not yet seen DOD, but, from what I've read on this fair site, I can't imagine it being any better than KOTCS.

[Schilkeman 984]

2 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I'm afraid that the Indiana Jones films are a sad case of diminishing returns.

I've not yet seen DOD, but, from what I've read on this fair site, I can't imagine it being any better than KOTCS.

The third best in the series? Probably not. lol

[Edmilson 7,517]

Confession time: I prefer the piano version of the Schindler's List theme that opens the end credits to the Itzhak Pearlman violin version. It's not that the classic violin version is bad, it's just that... the piano arrangement is better to listen to IMHO (even though it kinda has a "lounge" feeling).

 

And I guess the "haunting violin solo" is a trope that was so associated with Holocaust movies in the years following Schindler (see JNH's Defiance) that now it became kinda like an evergreen. 

 

Not that this is Williams's or Pearlman's fault though.

[Faleel 5,392]

Remembrances is better anyways.

[Not Mr. Big 4,651]

9 minutes ago, Faleel said:

Remembrances is better anyways.

Remembrances holds much more emotional weight for me but Theme From is still a much better headliner.  

[Faleel 5,392]

43 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Remembrances holds much more emotional weight for me but Theme From is still a much better headliner.  

Nah, Theme From is Remembrances decoy, it's protection, it's loyal bodyguard.

[Richard Penna 3,721]

Since day one I overwhelmingly preferred Remembrances to the main SL theme which is far too solemn and depressing for me. JNH's Defiance is marginally more listenable (I liked it more at the time) but both fall into that category of war scores that just aren't that enjoyable to listen to. Important subject matter doesn't have any bearing on whether I should enjoy a score.

[Thor 7,578]

6 hours ago, Faleel said:

Remembrances is better anyways.

 

Sure is.

[Mr. Hooper 1,849]

16 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Important subject matter doesn't have any bearing on whether I should enjoy a score.

Agreed. And when talking about movies, and I dare say to someone that I think Jaws is on a par with Schindler's List in Spielberg's filmography, I'll get the usual eye roll and knee-jerk reaction: "But that's just a stupid shark movie! How can you compare it to Schindler's List??"

 

It would be pointless to argue, so I don't. lol

 

But it must be to Spielberg's everlasting chagrin that some critics still hold up Jaws as the pinnacle of his career.

[Andy 4,173]

22 hours ago, Faleel said:

Remembrances is better anyways.

 

16 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Sure is.

And here I thought it was just me!  Popular Unpopular Opinions!

[Faleel 5,392]

8 minutes ago, Andy said:

 

And here I thought it was just me!  Popular Unpopular Opinions!

The secondary theme is often better than the primary theme. Thunk about it: The Force Theme, 4x4 Motif, Spock's theme, The Lion's Reign, Harry's Wondrous World, Star of Bethlehem, Orca Theme etc.

[Not Mr. Big 4,651]

Theme From is a better written and more memorable theme but Remembrances goes more into what's offscreen emotionally, taking an almost spiritual and uplifting sound at times (the violin section over the restatement of the redemption theme)

[GerateWohl 4,422]

At first I fell completely in love with Remembrances. Later, when I had listened to it a little too often, Theme From Schindler's List grew on me and I liked it even better. Meanwhile my favourite track of the score is Schindler's Workforce which is neither nor. 

[JTN 2,144]

6 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

How can you compare it to Schindler's List??"

Well I don’t think you can. Both films should be judged individually, and not be compared to one another.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

All I can say is which film gives me the most pleasure from watching it. JAWS, or SCHINDLER'S LIST?

Sorry, SCHINDLER'S LIST, but there's a bunch of lillies on their way, to you.

[filmmusic 1,852]

I have never warmed up to Jaws, both film and score..

I prefer Jaws 2.

[JTN 2,144]

That's a very interesting opinion. I like it!

 

 

51 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

which film gives me the most pleasure from watching it.

Not every film should give the viewer pleasure from watching it. Yes, JAWS is an entertaining, exciting and great adventure horror film. But SCHINDLER'S LIST is so much more, and its values have nothing to do with pleasure, but empathy.

[Tom Guernsey 2,301]

Having given the expanded album another listen, Amistad feels a bit emotionally and dramatically flat for me. The African choral stuff is too four square and upbeat, plus far too cheerful given the relatively small scale of the victory achieved. The John Quincy Adams stuff is nice enough but again feels quite superficial in its understated Americana. Only the darker passages have any significant dramatic traction. It’s almost like a non action version of the Patriot which is similarly quite superficial. JW’s feeling for African music is considerably more authentic (at least to my white western ears!) in rosewood resulting in a considerably more accomplished and meaningful score. 

[Faleel 5,392]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Having given the expanded album another listen, Amistad feels a bit emotionally and dramatically flat for me. The African choral stuff is too four square and upbeat, plus far too cheerful given the relatively small scale of the victory achieved. The John Quincy Adams stuff is nice enough but again feels quite superficial in its understated Americana. Only the darker passages have any significant dramatic traction. It’s almost like a non action version of the Patriot which is similarly quite superficial. JW’s feeling for African music is considerably more authentic (at least to my white western ears!) in rosewood resulting in a considerably more accomplished and meaningful score. 

Sir, this is the Unpopular Opinions thread.

[Tom Guernsey 2,301]

10 minutes ago, Faleel said:

Sir, this is the Unpopular Opinions thread.

Ok then… Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score for Amistad. Unpopular enough?! Haha 

[GerateWohl 4,422]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Having given the expanded album another listen, Amistad feels a bit emotionally and dramatically flat for me. The African choral stuff is too four square and upbeat, plus far too cheerful given the relatively small scale of the victory achieved. The John Quincy Adams stuff is nice enough but again feels quite superficial in its understated Americana. Only the darker passages have any significant dramatic traction. It’s almost like a non action version of the Patriot which is similarly quite superficial. JW’s feeling for African music is considerably more authentic (at least to my white western ears!) in rosewood resulting in a considerably more accomplished and meaningful score. 

I found it interesting, when I compared the scores for Amistad, Seven Years in Tibet and Memoirs of a Geisha how similar Williams' stylistic tools are for emulating ethnic music even though all three scores relate to very different regions and cultures. When you listen to the themes and stuff, not the source music, there are big similarities.

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

28 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Ok then… Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score for Amistad. Unpopular enough?! Haha 

 

Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score for a lot of films.

[Jurassic Shark 12,154]

Yeah, for all Balfe scored films, for starters.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

I haven't heard all Balfe scored films... but I know what you mean.

[JTN 2,144]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Yeah, for all Balfe scored films, for starters.

Or for all Zimmer scored films.

[Faleel 5,392]

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Ok then… Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score for Amistad. Unpopular enough?! Haha 

Would it? With how many criticize the sampled vocals in Ghost and the Darkness, I am not so sure...

[Mr. Hooper 1,849]

7 hours ago, JTN said:

Well I don’t think you can. Both films should be judged individually, and not be compared to one another.

Well that's the thing... I wasn't comparing the two. I mean, how could you. It's a case of apples and oranges.

 

I was just saying that they're equally brilliant in their execution.

 

But some just can't handle 'Jaws' and 'Schindler's List' being mentioned in the same breath—unless it's to say that SL is unequivocally superior. They're too stuck on the "importance" of its subject matter.

 

5 hours ago, filmmusic said:

I have never warmed up to Jaws, both film and score..

I prefer Jaws 2.

Oh, that's a ballsy statement.

 

Not preferring the score (which I do too), but the movie.

[JTN 2,144]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I wasn't comparing the two.

I didn’t say YOU were. I said “you”, meaning “one” can’t.

[Tom Guernsey 2,301]

5 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I found it interesting, when I compared the scores for Amistad, Seven Years in Tibet and Memoirs of a Geisha how similar Williams' stylistic tools are for emulating ethnic music even though all three scores relate to very different regions and cultures. When you listen to the themes and stuff, not the source music, there are big similarities.

 

Hadn’t really noticed that but guess his stamp is quite strong so not perhaps surprising. Maybe that’s why Rosewood stands out as it sounds like JW’s usual sound.

 

5 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score for a lot of films.

True although not for many films scores by JW! Although as I’ve said before, there’s a few later Spielberg films I think he’d have done a great job with and/or where JW’s style was less necessary to the type of film.

 

2 hours ago, Faleel said:

Would it? With how many criticize the sampled vocals in Ghost and the Darkness, I am not so sure...

Most of the choral stuff in TGatG is performed by real singers isn’t it?! In any event that’s a popcorn film about lions rather than a rather more serious one about slavery…

[Faleel 5,392]

29 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Most of the choral stuff in TGatG is performed by real singers isn’t it?! In any event that’s a popcorn film about lions rather than a rather more serious one about slavery…

Oh hai! Ho hai!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

9 hours ago, filmmusic said:

I have never warmed up to Jaws, both film and score..

I prefer Jaws 2.

 

I can dig it.

 

 

9 hours ago, JTN said:

SCHINDLER'S LIST is so much more, and its values have nothing to do with pleasure, but empathy.

 

Not for me. I have zero interest in any of the characters in that film.

I don't give a damn about any of them.

[GerateWohl 4,422]

3 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

True although not for many films scores by JW! Although as I’ve said before, there’s a few later Spielberg films I think he’d have done a great job with and/or where JW’s style was less necessary to the type of film.

Right. I would have liked to hear Goldsmith's take on Catch Me If You Can. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,651]

My unpopular JWFan opinion is that there aren't any Spielbergs where Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score than JW

[Tom 4,685]

9 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score for a lot of films.

I know, but he is dead.  

[Edmilson 7,517]

16 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

My unpopular JWFan opinion is that there aren't any Spielbergs where Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score than JW

Minority Report with a JG score could be nice. Same thing for War of the Worlds.

[Ollie 1,063]

19 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

My unpopular JWFan opinion is that there aren't any Spielbergs where Jerry Goldsmith would have written a better score than JW

 

 

Schindler's List may have been one.