Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

You can keep asserting that your belief foundation is evidence-based all you like, until you can actually present hypothetical evidence that would change your mind then it’s just not true.

 

You can be correct based on the available evidence yet still have to change your belief if new contradictory evidence presented itself. That’s one of the fundamentals of the scientific method. You being unable to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has a contrary belief is indicative of a lack of understanding on the topic, be it unintentional or intentional. You can’t accuse me of doing this either because I’ve given you the exact evidence you would need to convince me.

 

If you think you're likely right - or that I'm likely wrong - it must be because the evidence you are accepting is more credible than my evidence.

 

What is your evidence?  What "new contradictory evidence" could possibly present itself to 'change my belief'?

 

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

@Mattris assuming you have the same thoughts about other studios, I'd be interested in what you might have to say about WB cancelling several films mid-production (personally I have no interest in these films and I'm not sure if you do). Was there a hypothetical "benefit" to the straight-up cancellation of films like Batgirl?

 

I don't have the same thoughts about other studios. I know next to nothing about the recent/controversial/cancelled WB projects.

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

Is this sarcasm?  Because I can't imagine anyone really believing that this really happened.  It is laughable. 😄😄😄

 

 

Of course Disney's sole existence is based on making money. That is their only goal other than keeping shareholders happy. 

Otherwise maybe we'd see another Solo movie. 

 

I believe it really happened because I think they're trolling.

 

Disney can accept short-term losses with Star Wars, banking on making enough money in the long haul.

 

We might just see another Solo movie. But I doubt it will be the next Star Wars movie. If it is made, it'll probably go straight to Disney+.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Okay, NOW I'm all caught up again. You may all proceed. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

This is all starting to sound suspiciously like something I once read on r/saltierthancrait, the most toxic part of Star Wars fandom:

 

Quote

They were not on the same page when it came to creative decisions and it became obvious that Disney had an agenda in addition to wanting to please shareholders. Disney could “afford messing up IX for the sake of the bigger picture” when it came to protecting things unrelated to IX.

 

Completely baseless conjecture, of course

[HunterTech 994]

All this talk of Trevarrow, and I'm disappointed we haven't tried shoehorning The Book of Henry into any of this, especially as its one of the likely reasons that he got fired off of IX. Is that a script he specifically picked as a red herring gig so that people wouldn't suspect the great masterplan?

[DarthDementous 1,059]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

If you think you're likely right - or that I'm likely wrong - it must be because the evidence you are accepting is more credible than my evidence.

 

What is your evidence?  What "new contradictory evidence" could possibly present itself to 'change my belief'?

That's not for me to decide because I'm not the one holding the belief. The way this normally goes, when both people hold a belief based on evidence, is that the conversation becomes a pursuit of truth. In order for that to be the case, both need to be intellectually honest and present up front the evidence required to change their belief, and if said evidence is provided then the belief must be changed. That's the most rational way to handle truth. I've held up my end of the bargain, but you can't hold up yours.

I think you value the idea of rationality based on the way you speak, constantly demanding that people provide evidence and back up their claims with reasoning, but you don't embody it when it comes to this particular topic. Then again, everyone has their blind-spots...

[Mattris 416]

You didn't address anything I just said, @DarthDementous. You have not 'provided the evidence required to change my belief', therefore my belief has not changed.

 

'Providing evidence and backing up my claims with reasoning' is my trademark regarding "this particular topic". Did you forget what I posted? Did you not see it?

 

Blind-spots, indeed.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

@Mattris That was some awful reading comprehension. Please re-read what I wrote because it doesn't resemble what you're responding to at all.

[Tallguy 3,398]

10 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Evidence for what? I’m not sure what you’re replying to.

 

That we "can't keep doing this". They say there's no such thing as perpetual motion. This thread seems to say otherwise.

[Score 770]

"Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

[Demodex 557]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Providing evidence and backing up my claims with reasoning' is my trademark regarding "this particular topic". Did you forget what I posted? Did you not see it?

 

We saw what you've posted, but we rationally came to a different conclusion than you. 

The whole theory that Trevorrow was a distraction to make LFL look bad is just a horrible conclusion. 

That's not how studios work. 

 

Every reporter and YouTuber comments on the fact that there was no plan for the ST.  No way is there a big conspiracy and you're the only one to figure out "the truth."

Your truth is just preposterous. 

Of course that's just my opinion. 

[Tallguy 3,398]

But we ALLLLLL keep coming back.

[Chen G. 3,949]

50 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

But we ALLLLLL keep coming back.

 

For excrements and chortles.

[Demodex 557]

9 hours ago, Mattris said:

Blind-spots, indeed.

 

I just love your passive-aggressive hints at superiority. It certainly makes me want to join your side. 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

But we ALLLLLL keep coming back.

 

I hadn't posted here in a long time. Then I got bed-ridden with COVID. 

Then I got really bored. 

[Tallguy 3,398]

2 minutes ago, Demodex said:

Then I got really bored. 

 

THAT'S when the getcha!

[Demodex 557]

On 04/01/2023 at 2:00 AM, Mattris said:

Perhaps it was KK and JJ's idea to bring Palpatine back from the beginning, but Trevorrow didn't do as he was told and was eventually fired.

 

Or, as I think, Trevorrow's involvement was a distraction from their real  plans.

 

I think neither are true because they're both preposterous ideas. 

 

[greenturnedblue 372]

12 hours ago, HunterTech said:

The Book of Henry

After Josh Trank got fired after his horrible Fant4stic movie came out, I wouldn't be surprised if Book of Henry failing to deliver and Jurassic World's "meh" reception had something to do with it

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

@Mattris also, are all the other cancelled/altered projects part of this deception? Josh Trank's cancelled movie, Benioff and Weiss' cancelled trilogy, J.D. Dillard's cancelled movie, Lord/Miller being fired from Solo halfway through production, a slew of other confirmed/rumored cancelled projects. Are those also part of this distraction?

[greenturnedblue 372]

& Rian Johnson's trilogy that is certainly most definitely happening. and Patty Jenkins' Rogue Squadron

 

all part of the deception

[rough cut 1,714]

BTW, Did you guys hear what Rian Johnson had to say about his intentions with TLJ, that it was to give the story/characters a “viking funeral”.

 

Quote

Both audiences and Lucasfilm alike knew that Star Wars: The Last Jedi would serve as a middle chapter of an overall trilogy of films, but writer/director Rian Johnson recently recalled how he never approached the script from the point of teasing plot points for a future film, instead considering the ending of the film as being akin to a "Viking" funeral. 

"In terms of the Star Wars movie I did, I tried to give it a hell of an ending. I love endings so much that even doing the middle chapter of the trilogy, I tried to give it an ending," Johnson explained to The Atlantic. "A good ending that recontextualizes everything that came before it and makes it a beautiful object unto itself -- that's what makes a movie a movie. It feels like there's less and less of that. This whole poisonous idea of creating [intellectual property] has completely seeped into the bedrock of storytelling. Everyone is just thinking, How do we keep milking it? I love an ending where you burn the Viking boat into the sea."

 

As much as I enjoyed Knives Out, that man should’ve never been given the keys to the Star Wars universe.

 

Source: comicbook.com

[Mattris 416]

10 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

@Mattris That was some awful reading comprehension. Please re-read what I wrote because it doesn't resemble what you're responding to at all.

 

I'll go line by line.

 

13 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

That's not for me to decide because I'm not the one holding the belief.

 

You have decided to push back on my belief/conclusion, my evidence, and/or my methods implemented to arrive at said belief/conclusion.

 

13 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

The way this normally goes, when both people hold a belief based on evidence, is that the conversation becomes a pursuit of truth. That's the most rational way to handle truth.

 

What is your belief on this topic? Are you pursuing the truth? Do you think you're being rational?

 

13 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I've held up my end of the bargain, but you can't hold up yours.

 

How so?  What is my end of the bargain?

 

13 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I think you value the idea of rationality based on the way you speak

 

I do.

 

13 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

constantly demanding that people provide evidence and back up their claims with reasoning, but you don't embody it when it comes to this particular topic.

 

Have I not provided evidence and backed up my claims with reasoning? Have you?

[Chen G. 3,949]

23 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Quote

"In terms of the Star Wars movie I did, I tried to give it a hell of an ending. I love endings so much that even doing the middle chapter of the trilogy, I tried to give it an ending," Johnson explained to The Atlantic. "A good ending that recontextualizes everything that came before it and makes it a beautiful object unto itself -- that's what makes a movie a movie. It feels like there's less and less of that. This whole poisonous idea of creating [intellectual property] has completely seeped into the bedrock of storytelling. Everyone is just thinking, How do we keep milking it? I love an ending where you burn the Viking boat into the sea."

 

Huh, interesting.

 

I mean, yeah, The Last Jedi ends on a pretty final note, but then so do many other films in trilogies: there's no requirement for both of the first two entries of a trilogy to end in a cliffhanger - in fact I'd say the norm is to have only one outright cliffhanger per trilogy: two is considered being too much of a tease. The Phantom Menace doesn't have much of a cliffhanger or, to cite a second film in a trilogy, The Two Towers doesn't end with a very overt cliffhanger.

 

So I personally don't see that as an issue with the film: the fact of the matter is, it was perfectly possible to take the ending of The Last Jedi and construct a perfectly satisfying Episode IX from its building blocks: Kylo is now the increasingly-unhinged leader of the First Order, somewhat begrudged by Hux; Rey and the Resistance live to recuperate and fight another day, with Finn and Rose on the road to bumping uglies. Simple.

 

Actually, except for that last point, there is a noted attempt in The Rise of Skywalker to keep tabs with all of these threads from The Last Jedi (and a few others like the Jedi texts and the Force connection), its just that the movie doesn't do a good job of it, which is hardly surprising given it doesn't do a good job at almost anything.

 

The real issue for me is the film's attempt to constantly catch its audience by surprise, and often by cheap surprises at that. Now, Star Wars had been trafficing in surprising plot twists ever since 1980: Following the father reveal, every entry, in fact, had some major twist: from Leia being Luke's sister, to the reveal of the decoy queen in Episode I, to the surprise masssacre in Episode II. Johnson just took a post-Empire tick of the series and amped it by the magnitude of a 100.

[Demodex 557]

56 minutes ago, rough cut said:

As much as I enjoyed Knives Out, that man should’ve never been given the keys to the Star Wars universe

 

TLJ is one of my favorite SW films. I loved the ending. 

 

 

 

On 04/01/2023 at 8:38 AM, Mattris said:

I'm willing to teach you, @Demodex

- On its own, what was the story of the Original Trilogy?

- What was the point of adding the Prequel Trilogy?

- Did the OT benefit from the PT?

- Did the PT make a better or more-complete overall story?

- Did the overall story of the Saga change once the PT was added?

- What was the story of the Saga, I through VI?

- Did the first two trilogies benefit - or could they have benefitted - from additional episodes continuing past Episode VI?

- Do you have any significant issues with Episodes VII or VIII? Or did the Saga only take a wrong turn with TROS?

- After Episode VIII, what did you want or expect from the story of Episode IX?  (I understand that what you wanted and expected may not have been the same thing.)

 

Please answer all in a single post. Relatively short answers will be fine. Take time, if you need it. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say.

 

 

Ok. I'll play your game. 

 

1.  On its own, what was the story of the Original Trilogy?

The story is the redemption arc of Anakin Skywalker as well as the conclusion of the Civil War. 

 

2. What was the point of adding the Prequel Trilogy?

To paraphrase Lucas, basically to show how a good, innocent person can turn to evil. 

 

3. Did the OT benefit from the PT?

I would argue no, except maybe for a bigger emotional response to Anakin's last interaction with Luke, and his subsequent death. 

 

4. Did the PT make a better or more-complete overall story?

NO. 

 

5. Did the overall story of the Saga change once the PT was added?

No. It is primarily Anakin's story. 

 

6. What was the story of the Saga, I through VI?

See my answers to #1 and 2

 

7. Did the first two trilogies benefit - or could they have benefitted - from additional episodes continuing past Episode VI? 

No. Anakin's story ended with Episode 6.  There was no need for a ST. And yes, I believe Palpatine died for good in ROTJ. 

 

8. Do you have any significant issues with Episodes VII or VIII?

TFA was essentially a remake of ANH, but it was fun. 

TLJ was perfect except for the Canto Bight sequence.

 

Or did the Saga only take a wrong turn with TROS?  

YES

 

9. After Episode VIII, what did you want or expect from the story of Episode IX? 

I wanted a story that made sense and showed the defeat of the First Order.  I figured Kylo Ren would die somehow. 

[Mattris 416]

 

3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

@Mattris also, are all the other cancelled/altered projects part of this deception? Josh Trank's cancelled movie, Benioff and Weiss' cancelled trilogy, J.D. Dillard's cancelled movie, Lord/Miller being fired from Solo halfway through production, a slew of other confirmed/rumored cancelled projects. Are those also part of this distraction?

 

3 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

& Rian Johnson's trilogy that is certainly most definitely happening. and Patty Jenkins' Rogue Squadron

 

all part of the deception

 

Yep.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The real issue for me is the film's attempt to constantly catch its audience by surprise, and often by cheap surprises at that. Now, Star Wars had been trafficing in surprising plot twists ever since 1980: Following the father reveal, every entry, in fact, had some major twist: from Leia being Luke's sister, to the reveal of the decoy queen in Episode I, to the surprise masssacre in Episode II. Johnson just took a post-Empire tick of the series and amped it by the magnitude of a 100.

 

No surprise or twist in The Last Jedi  even comes close to the father reveal in The Empire Strikes Back.

 

I thought the most interesting part of the interview was this:  "A good ending that recontextualizes everything that came before it..."

 

What was recontextualized? Luke's (so-called) Jedi progress was undone soon after he made a grave mistake. The Jedi way failed again.  As the last of the Jedi, Luke's final act crucially gave the next generation hope and a chance at life, like Obi-Wan before him.

 

Looking back on it, these events really shouldn't have been a surprise.

 

"The legacy of the Jedi is failure."

 

9 hours ago, Demodex said:

We saw what you've posted, but we rationally came to a different conclusion than you. 

The whole theory that Trevorrow was a distraction to make LFL look bad is just a horrible conclusion. 

That's not how studios work. 

 

Every reporter and YouTuber comments on the fact that there was no plan for the ST.  No way is there a big conspiracy and you're the only one to figure out "the truth."

Your truth is just preposterous. 

Of course that's just my opinion. 

 

All things considered, this overall 'Disney Star Wars' situation is most unorthodox, wouldn't you agree? Is there anything truly 'normal' about it? From the POV of most SW fans, it seems like a mess. Is it really?  Or might it be a show within a show...

 

6 hours ago, Demodex said:

I think neither are true because they're both preposterous ideas.

 

You think having a plan to keep the same villain  throughout the Saga is a preposterous idea?

 

Dark Empire set a precedent and foreshadowed what could have happened. Like the Jedi failing again, Emperor Palpatine's return wasn't supposed to be that  shocking. I saw it coming.

 

 

Thanks for playing. I'll respond to your answers a bit later.

[rough cut 1,714]

If I would be able to detach TLJ from the Star Wars lore, I am sure I would enjoy it, but I’m not.

 

RJ knows how to make a good story, but what he did here was to fuck up 40 years of hard work from a lot of people and I will never respect that decision or the man behind it - no matter how “good” movies he makes independently - because it’s just such an extremely disrespectful, selfish and ignorant thing to do.

[Datameister 2,044]

I bear absolutely no ill will toward the man. In fact, I hypothetically respect the idea of making a conscious effort to take the story to genuinely new places. I just don't like some aspects of how he did it.

 

That interview snippet is interesting … again, there's a lot of thinking that I agree with. But when you're planning the penultimate film* in a trilogy of trilogies created over the course of 40 years, that feels like exactly the wrong place to try to create a satisfying ending.

 

* Penultimate released film, I mean. Of course, we all know that the fourth trilogy is already secretly underway. Mattris, I'm kinda surprised you haven't caught on to the fact that the fifth trilogy is already in the can, though. The clues couldn't be more obvious.

[Demodex 557]

42 minutes ago, rough cut said:

If I would be able to detach TLJ from the Star Wars lore, I am sure I would enjoy it, but I’m not.

 

RJ knows how to make a good story, but what he did here was to fuck up 40 years of hard work from a lot of people and I will never respect that decision or the man behind it - no matter how “good” movies he makes independently - because it’s just such an extremely disrespectful, selfish and ignorant thing to do.

 

I don't see how he fucked up 40 years of hard work. 

Lucas fucked up the PT, but people complain more about RJ for some reason. 

 

Also, if TLJ was so disrespectful, LFL would have fired him and gotten JJ to come back. 

[Tallguy 3,398]

14 minutes ago, rough cut said:

but what he did here was to fuck up 40 years of hard work from a lot of people and I will never respect that decision or the man behind it

 

If Disney or Kennedy or (Force help us) JJ had had a plan that could be mucked up I would see something to object to in TLJ. But there wasn't any change in direction from TFA to TLJ. It's JJ. There is no direction. JJ might not have been happy with what Johnson pulled out of the Mystery Box. But there were ways to fix that, you know? Like saying "Hey, THIS is who Rey is. THIS is why she has visions when she touches the old saber. THIS is what Luke was doing and what he does when Rey hands him his old saber. And THIS is how Maz got the saber in the first place."

 

If there was an intended direction then I don't get that they can fire Lord and Miller out of hand for whatever sins they committed on Solo but when Johnson made Rey a "nobody" their hands were tied?

 

The "unforgivable" decision was when Disney managed to get EVERYONE back, including Harrison Ford! and then to NOT have all of them ever meet. And I felt like that before Carrie passed away.

 

Luke never stopped trying to do the right thing. He didn't refuse to help because he was scared or cowardly. He wasn't drunk in a ditch. He decided that his destiny lay along a different path after all. (If I wasn't so damn sick of Tatooine I think he should have been back on the farm.) So I really really don't get the objection to Luke's position in TLJ. It makes far more sense than whatever the First Order was.

 

(The First Order should have been Imperial wannabes striking from a hidden base in 30 year old ships. Maybe they were more dangerous than the Alliance realized... But they should NOT have been a super power with a greater force than the sitting galactic power.)

 

The biggest misstep in TLJ was that Luke shouldn't have talked to Yoda. He should have talked to Anakin.

 

Ahhhh, there's my Star Wars disenchantment.

[Demodex 557]

3 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

The First Order should have been Imperial wannabes striking from a hidden base in 30 year old ships. Maybe they were more dangerous than the Alliance realized... But they should NOT have been a super power with a greater force than the sitting galactic power.

 

Right?!  I totally agree. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

LF was so confident everyone would love VIII, they gave RJ a trilogy before it even came out. Everyone except Mark Hamill, who is clearly annoyed at what his character ended up like in the dozens of interviews etc. 

 

11 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

The "unforgivable" decision was when Disney managed to get EVERYONE back, including Harrison Ford! and then to NOT have all of them ever meet. And I felt like that before Carrie passed away.

 

Mark Hamill agrees

 

I don't mind the 'Rey nobody' reveal in VIII, but I suspect JJ didn't intend her to literally be nobody when he was coming up with ideas for VII. I do mind when in IX he undoes all this. Imagine if Marquand decided in VI "actually, I dont really like what Kersh did in the last one so I think I'll undo all that". JJ should have at least try and keep everything consistent!

 

As an aside, does anyone remember the theory before VII came out that Kylo Ren was actually Luke? haha

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Yep.

 

So... the goal is for them to look as incompetent as possible, for them to eventually be seen as incredibly competent?

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

I'll go line by line.

 

You have decided to push back on my belief/conclusion, my evidence, and/or my methods implemented to arrive at said belief/conclusion.

 

What is your belief on this topic? Are you pursuing the truth? Do you think you're being rational?

 

How so?  What is my end of the bargain?

 

Have I not provided evidence and backed up my claims with reasoning? Have you?

You’re still not quite getting it. The only person that can give the hypothetical evidence that would lead to you changing the belief is you, because you’re the one holding the belief. I have no power over that. That belief can’t be based on evidence until you provide the hypothetical counter evidence that would need to exist to disconfirm that belief. That is the point of evidence.

 

I believe I am being rational, yes. I know my belief is evidence based because I’m aware of the evidence I would need to be presented to be convinced, and I don’t have any particular emotional connection to one outcome or the other. I only care about the truth, that in itself is valuable enough.

 

Your end of the bargain is reciprocating this by giving me the hypothetical counter evidence, which you have not been able to do. I believe this indicates that you can’t conceptualise any piece of evidence existing that would change your mind, which means that despite your claims your belief is not based on evidence.

 

You are the claimant so there is no burden of proof on me. You have provided evidence of a sort but none of it has met the criteria that I outlined of what would change my mind, so I remain at the default position of thinking that the grand plan doesn’t exist. You don’t believe things exist by default, you believe things exist via evidence, and I have not been given the sufficient evidence.

[Tallguy 3,398]

1 hour ago, greenturnedblue said:

Imagine if Marquand decided in VI "actually, I dont really like what Kersh did in the last one so I think I'll undo all that".

 

Johnson didn't do that. There was nothing to undo.

 

JJ thinks "There's a MYSTERY." What's the mystery JJ? "I don't know. The answers aren't interesting, the QUESTIONS are interesting." OK, JJ, we got a movie we have to make.

 

Johnson got JJ to change TFA so that Rey brought R2 instead of BB-8. So it's not like they weren't talking to each other.

 

If you had said to someone in 1977 that Luke had to be RELATED to other characters (other than his dead father) they would have looked at you like you were crazy. But then by the time we get to TFA the fans think Rey had to be FROM somewhere. She had to be IMPORTANT and not know it.

 

Johnson said "No she doesn't." She's super Forcey. That's important enough for anybody.

[Mattris 416]

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

that feels like exactly the wrong place to try to create a satisfying ending.

 

A satisfying end to that stage of the story, just like all of the other Star Wars Saga episodes.

 

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

* Penultimate released film, I mean. Of course, we all know that the fourth trilogy is already secretly underway. Mattris, I'm kinda surprised you haven't caught on to the fact that the fifth trilogy is already in the can, though. The clues couldn't be more obvious.

 

"Never more than twelve."        ...episodes

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Johnson made Rey a "nobody"

 

No, Rey received information about her parents from unreliable sources.

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

The "unforgivable" decision was when Disney managed to get EVERYONE back, including Harrison Ford! and then to NOT have all of them ever meet. And I felt like that before Carrie passed away.

 

Unfortunately, the story did not necessitate such as scene.

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

If I wasn't so damn sick of Tatooine I think he should have been back on the farm.

 

The TLJ novelization revealed that Luke dreamt about what his life could have been had he not gone after R2 and began his adventure. In the dream, he had inherited the moisture farm on Tatooine and gotten married... and the Empire still ruled the galaxy.

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

(The First Order should have been Imperial wannabes striking from a hidden base in 30 year old ships. Maybe they were more dangerous than the Alliance realized... But they should NOT have been a super power with a greater force than the sitting galactic power.)

 

Having risen from the ashes of the Empire, the devious forces of the First Order sought revenge.

 

Under the leadership of Mon Mothma, the New Republic government sought peace through passivism, without local systems having significant power of any sort. Dismissing Senator Leia Organa's warning, the Senate underestimated the darkness rising from afar, and it took just a single powerful strike to the centralized government to throw the entire galaxy into upheaval.

 

This is officially what happened and why it happened, as described in the canon, notably, in the Aftermath trilogy and Bloodline.

 

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

The biggest misstep in TLJ was that Luke shouldn't have talked to Yoda. He should have talked to Anakin.

 

Yoda was Luke's last teacher and mentor.

 

2 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

JJ should have at least try and keep everything consistent!

 

JJ was the trilogy's Executive Producer and kept everything consistent. Just because a a character in the story thinks or says something, it's not necessarily truthful or factual.

 

57 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

JJ thinks "There's a MYSTERY." What's the mystery JJ?

 

I'd say Star Wars is a mystery.

 

57 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Johnson got JJ to change TFA so that Rey brought R2 instead of BB-8. So it's not like they weren't talking to each other.

 

Of course.

 

57 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

If you had said to someone in 1977 that Luke had to be RELATED to other characters (other than his dead father) they would have looked at you like you were crazy. But then by the time we get to TFA the fans think Rey had to be FROM somewhere. She had to be IMPORTANT and not know it.

 

Johnson said "No she doesn't." She's super Forcey. That's important enough for anybody.

 

Again, Rey knew only what she was told.

[Groovygoth666 670]

12 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

Johnson didn't do that. There was nothing to undo.

Agreed, Johnson wrote the film using TFA as a jumping off point, how he handled it is what most people debate.

 

12 hours ago, Tallguy said:

JJ thinks "There's a MYSTERY." What's the mystery JJ? "I don't know. The answers aren't interesting, the QUESTIONS are interesting." OK, JJ, we got a movie we have to make.

Absolutely agree again, as you say JJ's approach is that the mystery itself is more interesting than the answer, but RJ is having to build off those questions and come up with his own answers, again it comes down to how he handled them.

 

12 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Johnson got JJ to change TFA so that Rey brought R2 instead of BB-8. So it's not like they weren't talking to each other.

It's also reported that Luke was supposed to have rocks floating around him in that last scene, till RJ asked JJ to change it, so there's definitely some collaboration between the two.

 

12 hours ago, Tallguy said:

But then by the time we get to TFA the fans think Rey had to be FROM somewhere. She had to be IMPORTANT and not know it. Johnson said "No she doesn't." She's super Forcey. That's important enough for anybody.

As far as Rey goes TFA is telling us (well can be interpreted at least) that she's important. She claims to know about being classified and that she's waiting for her family to return to Jakku, which is a major part of her wanting to go back there. Then there's Rey and Maz's conversation after Rey grabs Anakins lightsaber -

 

MAZ "That lightsaber was Luke's. And his
father's before him and now, it calls to you!"
REY "I have to get back to Jakku."
MAZ "Han told me. Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever
you're waiting for on Jakku, they're
never coming back. But... there's
someone who still could."
REY "Luke."
MAZ "The belonging you seek is not behind
you. It is ahead. I am no Jedi,
but I know the Force. It moves
through and surrounds every living
thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you. The saber. Take it." 
REY "I'm never touching that again. I
don't want any part of this"

 

Also the fact she is able to use the force with zero training and being under the impression that Luke is a myth could add fire to the belief that she's more important without knowing it. But the film also wants to treat Rey's origins as the mystery box, and by heading to Ahch-To in the finale she's letting go of that and choosing to move forward. Which puts Rian in a difficult position for starting his movie. He choose between continuing Rey's origins as being a mystery or unimportant to the story, not acknowledging it at all or coming up with an answer. And he chose to answer it with his own take, which many found underwhelming.

[greenturnedblue 372]

George Lucas to TotalFilm, 2008:

 

"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, The Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

Misdirection, I suppose, for Palpatine's eventual return...

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Again, Rey knew only what she was told.

 

Rey is not a real person, she's a movie character.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Groovygoth666 said:

As far as Rey goes TFA is telling us (well can be interpreted at least) that she's important. She claims to know about being classified...

 

I think you're misinterpreting that scene. Through Rey's translation, we learned that BB-8 - when asked where he came from - told Rey that he was "classified". She responded by humoring him, matching his ambiguity by saying she was also "classified" and a "big secret".

 

But this is a story, with that scene likely written to tease that Rey's origin was, indeed, "classified" and a "big secret"... not that Lucasfilm didn't know who she was, where she came from, or what they were going with the character, the featured protagonist of a Star Wars trilogy.

 

1 hour ago, Groovygoth666 said:

MAZ "Han told me. Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But... there's someone who still could..."

 

"... with your help."    (added in the novelization)

 

1 hour ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Also the fact she is able to use the force with zero training and being under the impression that Luke is a myth could add fire to the belief that she's more important without knowing it. But the film also wants to treat Rey's origins as the mystery box, and by heading to Ahch-To in the finale she's letting go of that and choosing to move forward. Which puts Rian in a difficult position for starting his movie. He choose between continuing Rey's origins as being a mystery or unimportant to the story, not acknowledging it at all or coming up with an answer. And he chose to answer it with his own take, which many found underwhelming.

 

Rey accepting Leia's request to go to Ahch-To - where Luke Skywalker supposedly was - did not imply that that she's letting go her desire to learn about her heritage or past. She was helping her new friend/family to do the right thing.

 

In TLJ, Rey continued to search for answers... and was left disappointed at the answers she was presented... especially considering that she might have wasted so much of her life - and risking it on such a dangerous planet - waiting for parents who were never coming back.

 

33 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

George Lucas to TotalFilm, 2008:

 

"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, The Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

Misdirection, I suppose, for Palpatine's eventual return...

 

Yes, it's really that simple.

 

17 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Rey is not a real person, she's a movie character.

 

I meant what I typed.  Daisy Ridley likely also knew only what she was told.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

Isn't it fun when any account or piece of evidence that contradicts can just be dismissed as misdirection? 

[greenturnedblue 372]

Funniest part of all of it is for me is that Trevorrow made a couple sketches for a new Tie fighter in his IX. Disney built a life size one for Galaxy's Edge at Disneyland, which opened in 2019. It's massive, I've seen it. But then Trevorrow left the project. Instead of wasting all this time, money and effort and scrapping his Tie, they just left it (also likely they wouldn't have had enough time to build a different one). I suppose that was all part of the plan

 

@DarthDementous Still waiting for Mattris to pull the quote "Everything is proceeding according to my design". Perhaps he should add that to the repertoire

[Mattris 416]

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

You’re still not quite getting it. The only person that can give the hypothetical evidence that would lead to you changing the belief is you, because you’re the one holding the belief.

 

Wrong, anyone can present evidence to me.

 

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

That belief can’t be based on evidence until you provide the hypothetical counter evidence that would need to exist to disconfirm that belief. That is the point of evidence.

 

Hypothetical counter evidence may not exist.

 

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I believe I am being rational, yes. I know my belief is evidence based because I’m aware of the evidence I would need to be presented to be convinced, and I don’t have any particular emotional connection to one outcome or the other. I only care about the truth, that in itself is valuable enough.

 

What is your belief?  What is 'the evidence you would need to be presented to be convinced'?  How will you know if what you believe is "the truth"?

 

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Your end of the bargain is reciprocating this by giving me the hypothetical counter evidence, which you have not been able to do. I believe this indicates that you can’t conceptualise any piece of evidence existing that would change your mind, which means that despite your claims your belief is not based on evidence.

 

Are you blind? Throughout hundreds of posts over the last three years, I have presented "hypothetical counter evidence" with logical reasoning responding to the theory that 'There was no plan for Star Wars - especially the third trilogy - and the majority/surface-level interpretation of Star Wars is the correct one.'

 

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I believe this indicates that you can’t conceptualise any piece of evidence existing that would change your mind, which means that despite your claims your belief is not based on evidence.

 

Not true. The reality is, I have not seen any piece of evidence that changes my mind. What real evidence is there?

 

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

You are the claimant so there is no burden of proof on me. You have provided evidence of a sort but none of it has met the criteria that I outlined of what would change my mind, so I remain at the default position of thinking that the grand plan doesn’t exist. You don’t believe things exist by default, you believe things exist via evidence, and I have not been given the sufficient evidence.

 

In "thinking that the grand plan doesn’t exist", you have a belief.  But you should know: There is no such thing as "the default position". The idea that 'the trilogy didn't have a plan' is 'a thing that exists'. You believe this, so you must present sufficient evidence. So the burden of proof is also on you.

 

59 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

Isn't it fun when any account or piece of evidence that contradicts can just be dismissed as misdirection? 

 

Which account or piece of evidence?

 

47 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Funniest part of all of it is for me is that Trevorrow made a couple sketches for a new Tie fighter in his IX. Disney built a life size one for Galaxy's Edge at Disneyland, which opened in 2019. It's massive, I've seen it. But then Trevorrow left the project. Instead of wasting all this time, money and effort and scrapping his Tie, they just left it (also likely they wouldn't have had enough time to build a different one). I suppose that was all part of the plan

 

@DarthDementous Still waiting for Mattris to pull the quote "Everything is proceeding according to my design". Perhaps he should add that to the repertoire

 

Trevorrow was announced as 'leaving the project' in 2017.

 

Great quote... and universally applicable.

[greenturnedblue 372]

@Mattris if you don't mind I have a few questions. What do you suspect the eventually Episode X might be about? Would JJ/Lucas be involved? Any idea on a ETA?

 

I think episode X etc. Will eventually happen, given enough time. I also think Palpatine's return isn't too bad of an idea, but one shouldn't have to play a video game campaign, read six novels and a bunch of comics to get the whole backstory. Adding his speech announcing his return taking place in Fortnite but not the film itself, the crawl starting with saying the speech has already happened, ridiculous lines like "somehow, Palpatine retuned" and "dark magic, secrets only the sith knew", and there not being any hints/clues in VII or VIII, the whole thing comes across as lazy and last minute to me. I can look past that, though, but the whole "Rey Palpatine" is what really ruins it for me

 

I would literally have not minded at all, if we wouldn't have to consume all this other ancillary media to get the whole story, and the audience was not expected to just go along with it saying "cool! Star Wars!" While forking money over to the Mouse

[Giftheck 916]

3 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

George Lucas to TotalFilm, 2008:

 

"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, The Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

Misdirection, I suppose, for Palpatine's eventual return...

 

Vader never came back to life, but the other events were in the EU. 'The Emperor doesn't get cloned' is pretty funny, because reading into the background behind Dark Empire, Tom Veitch met pitched his story to Lucas with a revived Vader. Lucas said 'no' but suggested he bring back Palpatine on him. No way Lucas wasn't involved with that decision.

 

Source

 

I guess, in a really roundabout kind of way, you can blame Lucas for Episode IX

 

(I like to think the conversation Lucas and JJ Abrams had during the development of IX amounted to Lucas just slapping a copy of Dark Empire down on the table and saying 'do that')

[DarthDementous 1,059]

Quote

In "thinking that the grand plan doesn’t exist", you have a belief.  But you should know: There is no such thing as "the default position". The idea that 'the trilogy didn't have a plan' is 'a thing that exists'. You believe this, so you must present sufficient evidence. So the burden of proof is also on you.

Uh, no. If Mark accuses John of murdering Dave, evidence needs to be provided to suggest that John had the means and motive to murder Dave. If Mark doesn't provide the sufficient evidence then no one has to prove John's innocence in order to refute the claim he murdered Dave because it can't be substantiated in the first place.

 

This line of thinking is actually quite relevant with this topic. Even if we assume Lucasfilm has the motive of creating maximum consumer goodwill by pretending to be incompetent and then delivering something competent, they lack the means to carry out the secrecy required. No film company, no matter how big (and in some ways size is a detriment to this), can prevent production leaks in the modern age. Maximum secrecy was applied to the Sequel Trilogy and so much still got out there. Lucasfilm, and any other film company, does not have the means to keep this large of a production secret. This is why my criteria involves seeing set photos of the supposed second Sequel Trilogy, because that would be a given if such a production was actually happening.

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

What is 'the evidence you would need to be presented to be convinced'?  How will you know if what you believe is "the truth"?

To take a page out of your book - are you blind? I've given my criteria to you a mere day ago and I've been constantly referencing it since. You should know exactly what the answers to these questions are.

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Wrong, anyone can present evidence to me.

Anyone can present evidence to you, you are the only one who can set the criteria for which hypothetical evidence would be sufficient for changing your mind as you hold the belief. Belief holder sets the standard for disconfirmation of their belief, not sure how much more clearer than that I could possibly put it

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Hypothetical counter evidence may not exist.

There is no belief based on evidence in the world that can't be disconfirmed by hypothetical evidence to the contrary. Any current existing scientific principle can be disconfirmed (and indeed has in the past) by new evidence to the contrary.

[Mattris 416]

15 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

... they lack the means to carry out the secrecy required. No film company, no matter how big (and in some ways size is a detriment to this), can prevent production leaks in the modern age. Maximum secrecy was applied to the Sequel Trilogy and so much still got out there. Lucasfilm, and any other film company, does not have the means to keep this large of a production secret. This is why my criteria involves seeing set photos of the supposed second Sequel Trilogy, because that would be a given if such a production was actually happening.

 

In the shoot that was called 'Episode IX', I suspect that Episode X was also filmed. High up on Lucasfilm's list of priorities is keeping this very secret. From within the company, they have the means to succeed in this, as has been proven with loads of recent Star Wars projects. You should not expect to see set photos. If this is your criteria for evidence, you will be surprised with the rest.

 

Your underestimation of Lucasfilm is not admissible as evidence.

 

15 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

To take a page out of your book - are you blind? I've given my criteria to you a mere day ago and I've been constantly referencing it since. You should know exactly what the answers to these questions are.

 

Nope. You have not presented evidence (with logical reasoning of said evidence) to your held theory that 'there was no plan for the trilogy'.

 

15 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Anyone can present evidence to you, you are the only one who can set the criteria for which hypothetical evidence would be sufficient for changing your mind as you hold the belief. Belief holder sets the standard for disconfirmation of their belief, not sure how much more clearer than that I could possibly put it

 

What is the best evidence you have that supports your belief?

 

The literal canon-wide clues/hints and John Williams' musical thematic connections are my standard for credible evidence.

 

15 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

There is no belief based on evidence in the world that can't be disconfirmed by hypothetical evidence to the contrary. Any current existing scientific principle can be disconfirmed (and indeed has in the past) by new evidence to the contrary.

 

What "hypothetical evidence to the contrary" can disconfirm that this is a photo of an apple?

 

 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

What do you suspect the eventually Episode X might be about?

 

Another scavenger hunt with friends.

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Would JJ/Lucas be involved?

 

JJ writer/director, Chris Terrio co-writer, Lucas consultant

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Any idea on a ETA?

 

Double-digit months away.

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

I think episode X etc. Will eventually happen, given enough time. I also think Palpatine's return isn't too bad of an idea, but one shouldn't have to play a video game campaign, read six novels and a bunch of comics to get the whole backstory.

 

The audience isn't required to read/watch extra content. But that content does help make things clearer, especially if you have a certain point of view.

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Adding his speech announcing his return taking place in Fortnite but not the film itself, the crawl starting with saying the speech has already happened

 

I hope Palpatine's galaxy-wide message is presented in X.

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

ridiculous lines like "somehow, Palpatine retuned" and "dark magic, secrets only the sith knew"

 

Those lines were purposeful, having shown what certain characters thought/supposed.

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

there not being any hints/clues in VII or VIII, the whole thing comes across as lazy and last minute to me.

 

I see many hints/clues in VII and VIII - and throughout the other films and canon - of what occurred in IX. As JJ said, "The set-ups for what we're doing in IX are in plain view."

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

I can look past that, though, but the whole "Rey Palpatine" is what really ruins it for me

 

Why? What did you want/expect to be the explanation for Rey?

 

16 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

I would literally have not minded at all, if we wouldn't have to consume all this other ancillary media to get the whole story, and the audience was not expected to just go along with it saying "cool! Star Wars!" While forking money over to the Mouse

 

By the end of the Saga, I expect the entirety of the main story will have been sufficiently presented on-screen.

 

If one wishes to look deeper to learn about interesting back-ground information, details, characters, and plots that don't make it to a (big or small) screen, the "ancillary media" is available.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

In the shoot that was called 'Episode IX', I suspect that Episode X was also filmed. High up on Lucasfilm's list of priorities is keeping this very secret. From within the company, they have the means to succeed in this, as has been proven with loads of recent Star Wars projects. You should not expect to see set photos. If this is your criteria for evidence, you will be surprised with the rest.

You suspect Episode X was also filmed? How about you give me some actual production evidence instead of guessing? Every recent Star Wars project has had set photos (and in some cases full plot summaries) leaked. Not hard to get them, especially with reliable insiders and filming in public.

 

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

Nope. You have not presented evidence (with logical reasoning of said evidence) to your held theory that 'there was no plan for the trilogy'.

 

What is the best evidence you have that supports your belief?

 

The literal canon-wide clues/hints and John Williams' musical thematic connections are my standard for credible evidence.

What you initially responded to is a quote of me talking about the hypothetical evidence I would need to see in order to believe that there is a grand plan. If you think I'm talking about my evidence for believing there's no plan for the trilogy then you have misread what I have said. I'm starting to think it's intentional at this point. It's almost like you do recognize what I'm saying about you being unable to disconfirm your belief with evidence means it isn't based on evidence, and you don't want to admit it. Seems to consistently be the one thing you keep twisting into talking about my evidence for believing there isn't a plan.

 

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

What "hypothetical evidence to the contrary" can disconfirm that this is a photo of an apple?

That the subject of the picture does not meet the criteria for what is considered an apple. In this case, you agree that it does meet the criteria, and I also agree it meets the criteria. Therefore we both have the belief that the photo is of an apple. However, we both used the same criteria to determine that, that being the criteria for what is an apple (reddish, stalk, particular shape etc.). It's hypothetical because it doesn't have to be true. That's why I don't get why you're so hesitant to present the hypothetical evidence for your belief, you don't have to agree that there is something out there that contradicts it otherwise you wouldn't be holding the belief in the first place (provided it is actually evidence-based).

To continue with the apple analogy, what's happening right now is we're both looking at a picture of an apple and you're telling me there's a worm in it. I would believe there's a worm in it, if I could see any evidence of the worm being there (spots on the apple, markings, glimpses of the worm). You believe there's a worm in there because you read a bunch of books about the apple and connected that they're saying there is a worm in it and it has always been there. I'm asking for physical evidence, you keep giving literary evidence. Words on a page in a fictional book do not dictate the reality of something that is physically in our world.

[Demodex 557]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

Yes, it's really that simple.

 

If you're delusional. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Wrong, anyone can present evidence to me.

 

And then you will say we're being lied to or it's misdirection. So no one can really present any evidence to you. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Which account or piece of evidence?

 

Everything that's ever been presented to you. 

There is never going to be any concrete proof for either theory because people can lie or misdirect.  

 

I can't believe Trevorrow's script was a fake made for a distraction without proof.  There is none that exists. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

I'm sure you realize that for a secretly shot Episode X to remain a secret, all the pre production people, director, screenwriter, producer, all principle cast along with hundreds of extras and characters with very little screen time, editors, hundreds of VFX artists, composer, and I suppose even high level Disney/LF people would all have to keep tight lips. A rather large cover up, admittedly..?

 

and despite JediPaxis leaking pretty much the entire plot to IX several months before the movie came out, there are still no leaks whatsoever? Leakers already had the complete plot to VII also several months before that came out as well. I suspect you will say something like all of Bad Robot's leaks were deliberate, to throw people off the scent, including their leaks for non-SW properties

 

And lastly, do you think Palpatine will return in this one too? And be beaten for the third time?

[Schilkeman 964]

"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." I dismiss this theory on those grounds.

 

Also, the “Jedi way” did not fail. The Republic failed the Jedi. Luke was redeeming his father. He was returning the Jedi. The Redemption of the Jedi would be a very different movie.

[batmatt92 4]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Double-digit months away.

 

This is all I wanted to know, personally.

 

I'm really looking forward to J.J. Abrams' Star Wars Episode X, to be released sometime before April 6th 2031!

[greenturnedblue 372]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

There is no such thing as "the default position".

The "default position" maintains the status quo, which in this case is that episode X does not exist