Danny Elfman's SPIDER-MAN (2002) - NEW! 3-CD Expanded Edition from La-La Land Records (2022)

[Manakin Skywalker 4,896]

On 16/12/2022 at 3:56 PM, Jay said:

Please, tell us more!

 

Sorry, I couldn't think up something as in-depth as @Edmilson's wonderful essay above. So here, I'll let Johnny tell you what I think about it...

 

 

[Jay 37,368]

I forgot to mention that on the plane ride home last week, I actually watched the film.  I watched it because of this score release, I figured it was as good of a time as any to revisit it to learn more about the music and how it supports the picture!

 

I hadn't seen the film in a very long time, probably 15 years (as a re-watch with 2 before 3 came out).  It kind of holds up pretty well as a relic of its time, after the days when live action superhero stuff was largely low budget TV affair, and before the MCU came along and made everything be all CGI all the time.

 

It really seemed like they had to carefully choose their action set pieces, and so when they happen they are big, exciting, and feel more special than a modern movie where there's some sort of action, fight, or chase every 10 minutes or so.  In between the action scenes, boy this is so much more of a high school coming of age affair than I remembered, lol.  Also, it's pretty funny that Maguire, Dunst, and Franco, and Manganiello absolutely do not look like high school seniors whatsoever, lol.  Dafoe is really having a great time in the whole film, it's just a shame the Goblin mask didn't let you see his face at all for some of his long monologues.

 

It was amusing to see a bunch of quick appearances from people I instantly recognize now that I probably didn't know who they were in 2002 - Octavia Spencer, Jim Norton, the aforementioned Joe Mananiello - plus that there are references to a wider Marvel universe I wouldn't have known then either - Eddie Brock is mentioned, and Daredevil's father appears on screen!

 

Anyways, the score: Boy, I really liked it in the film!  Historically, this has never been a favorite Elfman of mine, nor one that I listened to often.  I did buy the score album as soon as it came out, and always hoped it would "click" one day, but I guess it never really did; I ended up liking 2 more, and then loving 3 and finding it much more accessible of a score than either of the first two.  But since then, I got to know the Green Goblin and Responsibility themes very well thanks to No Way Home's score, so on this watch of this movie, I found myself instantly recognizing them in all their appearances and really enjoying how they are used in the film.  The Goblin theme is used a real lot, and always sounds different, kind of like how Dafoe's mind is always in a different place once he gasses himself.

 

I also really liked the synth percussion parts of the score.  I thought it was interesting that often the orchestral cues didn't organically transition into those passages, it was more of an abrupt change - to me, that kind of made it more fun!  The score almost seemed more of an evolution of his Men In Black sound than anything to do with his Batman scores, and I was really digging that.  Really throughout the whole film, I was quite enjoying how the score supported it, and got very excited to hear the new album.  Hopefully I'll really be able to dig into it some time soon.

One part of scoring in the film I enjoyed is when Peter first climbs a wall, and there's a orchestra hit that syncs up with the first few times he puts his hand down on the wall.  Which track is that here?

[mstrox 6,651]

It should be “New Powers” -  unless they mucked with the track order a bit for listening purposes.  Maybe the biggest unreleased highlight from the OST, IMO.

[Brando 1,864]

One thing I appreciate about the movie compared to super hero movies now(which I don’t mind, they’re just different), is the end fight between Spidey and Goblin. Goblin beats him to a pulp immediately after chucking a grenade into his face. The scenery of the broken buildings just adds to the chaos. I love how when Spidey gets the upper hand over him, all he does is throws him against the wall, trips him up with his webs, and finally pulls a wall down on him. It’s simple but it works so well. 

[aj_vader 534]

Mines just shown up and the case fell apart 😭

[Jay 37,368]

I'm really liking what I can hear of the main program through my ear infection.

The responsibility theme is really nice.  Does it only appear in City Montage, Final Confrontation, and Farewell, or is there more appearances?

[ddddeeee 257]

35 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm really liking what I can hear of the main program through my ear infection.

The responsibility theme is really nice.  Does it only appear in City Montage, Final Confrontation, and Farewell, or is there more appearances?

It plays throughout Ben's death in 'Revenge' and there's a lovely version at the end of that track, too.

 

The themes are all related to each other (bar the Goblin theme), so you'll often hear the beginning of one theme segway into another. For example, in 'Revenge', you have a cool version of a Spider-Man theme variant at 1:48 which is completed by the ending of the Peter/Responsibility theme at 1:55.

 

 

[Jay 37,368]

Awesome, thanks for that!

[TBO1711 32]

I'm hoping they will also release a Spider-Man 2 expanded edition and a Spider-Man 3 expanded edition soundtrack

[Manakin Skywalker 4,896]

27 minutes ago, TBO1711 said:

I'm hoping they will also release a Spider-Man 2 expanded edition and a Spider-Man 3 expanded edition soundtrack

 

Highly unlikely, unfortunately. But that's the dream! 🤞

[Brando 1,864]

5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Highly unlikely, unfortunately. But that's the dream! 🤞

Unfortunately both lines apply here😢

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

9 minutes ago, Brando said:

Unfortunately both lines apply here😢

 

[Cameron007 43]

2 is still more likely than 3. Just saying.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,896]

That's definitely true, given the post-2005 AFM fees needed to release SM3.

[Brando 1,864]

Technically anything is possible if you put your mind to it.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,896]

[Holko 9,526]

I listened to this score again and this time I liked it more than before. It still would need some reediting to do away with some of the more fragmented cues and rescue it from the movie's messy Koepp structure but I wouldn't lose any of it. If it was 2CDs, I'd buy it happily but as a 3disc set with the useless OST... jesus christ 53€ on MBR, 60€ on soundtrackcorner. No thanks, I'll live without it. It's nowhere near special or close to my heart enough like Sleepy Hollow to justify that.

[Bespin 8,483]

Cold cold heart.

[Holko 9,526]

Did a quick breakdown of the LLL today:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOoVBArBHpDm2-v3W9Z7Ax5XuSvxcIWcb9ygA7GfUkg/edit?usp=sharing

[Jay 37,368]

Anything different from this?

 

On 18/12/2022 at 12:00 PM, Jay said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N9vGXHKj7_VmKAKqlsMZfoyaw4W9pMwcVYF-G-QDAa8

 

[Holko 9,526]

 

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Anything different from this?

 

 

...oh, I looked in your thread before starting and it wasn't there.

Well I guess it's more clear on which versions the OST uses and I added notes on how the versions differ and what's edited out.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

Quote

LLL has a microedit at 4:24 removing material at OST 4.06-4:10

 

Why would they do this?  It's not like they had to deal with 79-minute discs or anything on this release.

[Holko 9,526]

A very good question, I have no idea. My best guess is that it was recorded in multiple takes and the OST joined them spaced a bit further apart but the film and thus the LLL joined them more closely?

[Brando 1,864]

9 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

Why would they do this?  It's not like they had to deal with 79-minute discs or anything on this release.

Which cue is this?

[Jay 37,368]

[Brando 1,864]

Very odd.

[Holko 9,526]

Initially I wasn't too hot on this score, but when coming back I kept liking it more and more. The very fluid way the themes are used makes it less immediately accessible but it definitely rewards repeats! For example until reading the booklet this weekend, I didn't even put it together in my head that the Goblin has a proper theme, but now I can hear it all over. After my last listen through my edit, I just love this score.

 

Some of the score is a bit patchy here and there so I had to move it around. Most cues begin and end satisfyingly enough so it was hard to find a place for some loose short bits. I also tried to incorporate as many of the alternate segments as I could.

 

Changes:

• Spider Bite: I cut off Deadlines.
• Peter's New Powers: this is the biggie. I felt New Powers is a great self-contained piece that builds up the Spidey theme and ends well enough, so Web Slinger's additional nonthematic buildup and action right after felt tacked on. So I combined them! Basically I put Web Slinger's stronger opening and ending at the front and back, and put the remainder in the middle to extend a buildup.
  • Web Slinger 0:00-0:15
  • (overlapped with the ending) New Powers 0:00-1:30
  • (overlapped to continue the buildup, sped up to 1.02 to match the tempo better) Web Slinger 0:14-0:42
  • (overlapped to transition better) New Powers 1:28-2:08 (end)
  • Web Slinger 0:42-end
• Backyard Connection is the alternate, I just liked it a bit better plus it's longer
• I split Harsh Words / Peter Wins up and added them to the previous and the next track.
• Revenge is the alternate with the section from the OST restored, more music!
• Responsibility is City Montage, with City Stinger at the end moved closer so it feels more like a natural ending.
• Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man is Moondance / Photography / City Stinger with City Stinger 2 again moved closer to overlap with Photography's end, it works really naturally.
• Norman Gets the Boot is Deadlines + Norman Gets the Boot / Spidey-Sense, this felt like a good place to move Deadlines to.
• I wanted to use both versions in Parade Attack, and I felt the main version is a better intro to Spider-Man's theme so I had to place the original section later, right before the Goblin's percussion takes over.
  • Parade Attack (Film Version) 0:00-2:32
  • Parade Attack (With Alternate Section) 1:52-2:16
  • Parade Attack (Film Version) 2:32-end
• For Specter of the Goblin, I used a combination of the two openings, I thought the longer revision and the quieter original were both too interesting to just pick one over the other, so I did a long crossfade from the main program version to the alternate at the brass swell early in. This results in a bigger punchier opening, but then a quieter flute Goblin as we "cut inside" or something. Then I joined it with Roof Chat, and capped it off with Enter the Goblin, which I felt sucked in its original place on its own but isn't a horrible coda here.
• I added Father and Son to the opening of Fire since it opened somewhat abruptly and FaS was just an odd bit of nothing in its original place that only held up the momentum of getting to the finale.
• I switched and joined Drop of Blood and The Clue, I felt that helped a bit with the dramatic structure in this part.
• Norman's Troubles is of course the lovely longer alternate.
• Joined Danger / On the Bridge with To The Rescue seamlessy, then also joined in a Final Confrontation assembly from the two versions - here the alternate of the section is just a bit of action but the film version is big Spidey statements so the order was obvious:
  • The Final Confrontation (With Alternate Opening) 0:00-0:53
  • The Final Confrontation 0:24-end
• The End Credits piss me off, they're so obviously written to just be an intro to the rest but then we have nothing on the OST or LLL, just a shitty annoying song in the film. So instead of my usual Alternates Suite, I made up a longer Credits!
  • End Credits (Extended Version)
  • Backyard Connection (since I used the alternate in the main program) - this one felt so natural with the Credits' softening end!
  • Costume Montage, Web Practice (Alternate) - This one was a no-brainer too, its slowly growing opening follows the romantic cue nicely
  • Norman's Troubles 0:00-0:45 (since I already used the alternate in the main program)
  • Fire (With Alternate Section) 0:57-end - Started from the different segment but ended up just leaving the whole rest of the track in for more Goblin representation and a good transition point
  • Getting Through - OST version for the alternate take and clean ending
  • Main Titles (Album Version) - The songtrack version for the sliiiightly different mix.
  • The 60s TV theme as a "hidden bonus track"

Oh, also a new cover because I never liked the poster the LLL uses, he looks weird. So I used another poster, AI and some guidance and encouragement from @crumbs!

It works for a thumbnail, don't zoom into the buildings too much

[Faleel 5,350]

46 minutes ago, Holko said:

Initially I wasn't too hot on this score, but when coming back I kept liking it more and more. The very fluid way the themes are used makes it less immediately accessible but it definitely rewards repeats! I didn't even put it together in my head that the Goblin has a proper theme, but now I can hear it all over.

 

So, just curious, have you heard 3 or no?

[Edmilson 7,462]

2 hours ago, Brando said:

Very odd.

Maybe this is because, since the LLL is the film version, then the movie does not include the OST material that was left out?

[Holko 9,526]

11 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Maybe this is because, since the LLL is the film version, then the movie does not include the OST material that was left out?

That would be random and stupid, the movie drops some other parts of other cues, why recreate this single 4 second edit?

 

15 minutes ago, Presto said:

So, just curious, have you heard 3 or no?

Nope! I haven't even heard 2's OST! I'm waiting for expansions. 3 will be really challenging to assemble.

[mstrox 6,651]

10 minutes ago, Holko said:

That would be random and stupid, the movie drops some other parts of other cues, why recreate this single 4 second edit?

Probably assumed since the full cue was on the OST, also included, they were able to recreate the timing of the film version (that’s all the four second removal really does in this case, plays with the timing).

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I dig the new cover, @Holko!

[Trope 527]

Is this release worth grabbing as the LLL sale comes to an end? I’ve never seen the film and I only recently listened to the OST and enjoyed it (can’t say I was blown away, but it had some quite nice Elfman moments). 
 

I know it’s a 3CD set, so reasonably costly apart from the discount. I guess what I’m asking is, is the previously unreleased music available on this set interesting/engaging enough that it warrants essentially a cold purchase? Or are the primary highlights already available on the OST?

[Holko 9,526]

1 hour ago, Trope said:

Or are the primary highlights already available on the OST?

They are but the main program, maybe with some help, definitely presents a fuller more satisfying journey. The OST also shortens multiple cues.

1 hour ago, Trope said:

I know it’s a 3CD set, so reasonably costly apart from the discount.

...yeah, with the stupid OST inclusion and multiple alternates only having a short different section (30 seconds in a 5 minute track or 10 seconds in a 7 minute one), if you remove all the repetition of the same takes then there's around 90-100 minutes of unique music on the set. I grew to love the score but that was a hard sell for 60€.

[Trope 527]

Thank you! I might pass on this one.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,896]

Interesting choice using a track from Spider-Man 2. Hopefully it was intentional 🤞

 

La-La Land Records (@lalalandrecords) • Instagram photos and videos

[TBO1711 32]

I hope it's a hint that we might be getting a expanded Spider-Man 2 soundtrack

[Jay 37,368]

10 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Interesting choice using a track from Spider-Man 2. Hopefully it was intentional 🤞

 

La-La Land Records (@lalalandrecords) • Instagram photos and videos

 

Did your post say something about "album version" last night? What did that mean?

[Datameister 2,044]

9 hours ago, TBO1711 said:

I hope it's a hint that we might be getting a expanded Spider-Man 2 soundtrack

 

That would be awesome. I was just wishing for this the other day. I may prefer the overall journey of the first score, but Doc Ock's theme singlehandedly makes the second one indispensable as well.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Yep, Doc Ock's theme is really good - works great in action mode.

 

I only have a few tracks from the first score (so I was never going to bother with LLL's set) but I might be interested in #2 if they managed to include the rescores by Debney (and whoever else). I was never crazy about the OST, but an opportunity to revisit and make a custom playlist from all the material recorded for the film, would be interesting.

 

And this leads to further ponderings.... if LLL is about to announce this next week, could Spidey 3 possibly be on the table? Probably the only score other than JPIII/Gladiator that would make me properly thrilled.

[Edmilson 7,462]

I hope it is indeed a sign that Spiderman 2 is coming! Perhaps this year to celebrate its 20th anniversary?

 

1 minute ago, Richard Penna said:

And this leads to further ponderings.... if LLL is about to announce this next week, could Spidey 3 possibly be on the table?

Sadly, I think SM3 is still highly unlikely. It's a score for a 2007 movie recorded in the USA, so it may be difficult due to the AFM date. Also, I remember reading somewhere that one of the reasons the 3rd score was never officially released is due to the Elfman blocking his music and themes for some rights thing... But that could be easier to fix than the AFM thing.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Damn, I forgot about the fees. Huge orchestra and choir - that's not coming cheap either way.

 

The Elfman thing is something I hope is in the distant past - I'm fairly sure it's down to him getting the rights to his themes after being messed around on Spidey 2, and iirc there were suggestions back then that Young could do an album if he edited out all of Elfman's material.

[ddddeeee 257]

Steve Bartek said in an interview that whenever he's asked for sheet music for Spider-Man, he and Elfman send over Spider-Man 2 because they both prefer it. I can see a Spider-Man 2 release going ahead.

[Stark 316]

One thing I’ve wondered for a while: since Spider-Man 3 never had a score release, would reuse fees not apply to it?

[Edmilson 7,462]

Great question.

 

Also: how much Elfman music there is in Young's score? Is it enough to, should he make a curated OST that excises all of Elfman stuff, there's still enough music to make a nice coherent album?

 

Either way, I don't think now that almost 2 decades have passed since SM3 Elfman would create problems for releasing Young's score... Would he?

[Richard Penna 3,694]

14 minutes ago, Stark said:

One thing I’ve wondered for a while: since Spider-Man 3 never had a score release, would reuse fees not apply to it?

 

I can picture the legal people having a dicussion over that and poring over the AFM's agreements. I wonder if the language used just assumes that an 'initial' release of a score has (a) happened and (b) at the time of the film.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

“Reuse” refers to the recordings originally used in film. First-time album releases are still fully subject to reuse if they are later than that cutoff point in 2005.

 

Yavar

[Richard Penna 3,694]

But aren't initial album releases for current films excluded from fees?

[Jay 37,368]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

 

Did your post say something about "album version" last night? What did that mean?

 

Oh nevermind.  It does say that, here on my computer.

 

 

Last night viewing the Instagram story on my phone, it didn't say that (in two different browsers)

[Richard Penna 3,694]

FWIW it's called 'Album Version' on a handful of streaming places such as https://www.deezer.com/en/album/75359