How "Fame" beat "The Empire Strikes Back" at the Oscars

[Trumpeteer 302]

One of the big tragedies for John Williams fans has been the selection of Michael Gore as the recipient of the Original Score Oscar of 1980 for Fame over John Williams' work on The Empire Strikes Back. It definitely remains one of the biggest upsets and surprises in Oscar history.

 

In the newest episode of my show The Best Song Podcast, I offer up the reason behind Fame being included in the list of original score nominees in the first place (especially since there is less than 10 minutes of non-song original music in the movie). I won't tell you here; you'll have to listen to episode 48 of the show to find out. And, I offer up my explanation in the first five minutes of the show, so you don't have to wait long.

 

Does this help to ease the pain of Williams' Oscar loss? Or does it sting even more?

 

I hope you'll listen to the rest of the episode, which features an interview with Dean Pitchford, the lyricist for the song "Fame," and an analysis of the other four Oscar-nominated songs and a brief listen to other songs that were left off the list. Enjoy the show!

 

[King Mark 3,631]

Easy, there wasn't any rules in place to prevent members of confusing "songs" and "score". Plus ,even back in the day they always go for the most "trendy" choice no matter how much it sucks.

 

In the 70's and 80's Blockbusters were automatically excluded from winning best picture in favor of serious dramas (like Kramer vs Kramer ) or "witty" Woody Allen romantic comedy.

The Exorcist, Jaws, Star Wars and E.T should all have won Best Picture by a mile.

 

Around the year 2000 the Academy was briefly cool and LotR won

 

In the  mid 2000's political correctness came into play and since about 2016  only woke movies win anything.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I cannot take seriously anyone who unironically uses the word “woke”. Please search for other words to communicate your opinions.

[King Mark 3,631]

It's the most accurate term I can come up with to describe the current state of the Oscars. Please stop pretending like I used some kind of deeply offensive word and everyone here gets triggered by it.

 

I also said sometime ago I was going to tone it down and use it less, but that doesn't mean I'll stop using it altogether.

[Schilkeman 964]

Way to breeze right past the point of the thread to tell us how you feel about diversity in Hollywood. 
 

It’s such a shame white people can’t win awards anymore.

[King Mark 3,631]

Whatever, I never said that.

[Tom 4,664]

Let's see if I can get this back on track.  The reason that the best score of all time lost to a fleeting, blip on the musical radar is because people can be really, really, really dumb (imho, of course).   

[King Mark 3,631]

it's a bit like Charriots of Fire winning over Raiders. Basically for just one track.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

Sorry, @King Mark, CHARIOTS OF FIRE is an absolutely superb score, and Vangelis thoroughly deserved his Academy Award (and it's not for "just one track").

 

Ps, you go right on using the word "woke". I did, in a post, this morning, and I make no apologies for it.

 

[HunterTech 994]

When the guy who cameoed in Home Alone 2 fully admits 'woke' is a pretty meaningless term for the people that keep parading it, then I guess I have to ask what even is the point of using it then if it only invites annoyance at this point instead of actual discussion?

 

I would argue the very idea of this thread kind of proves the notion that every era has always tended to reward whatever felt more contemporary over the stuff that really permeates in cultural osmosis (even if Fame isn't exactly obscure these days). So I feel like it might help to add a substantial asterisk to your choice of words if you don't want to be so misunderstood on a point that isn't exactly generation exclusive.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

Anyhoo...

[HunterTech 994]

"I sure am glad Midnight Express beat Superman for the best score Oscar that year!"

[King Mark 3,631]

Well it's obvious Williams can't win every year for similar type of music, but in a few instances he should of like Raiders ,TESB or Superman and even Jurassic Park over his own Schindler's List. And Harry Potter 1 over LotR  (which should NOT have won for 2 movies)

53 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

When the guy who cameoed in Home Alone 2 fully admits 'woke' is a pretty meaningless term for the people that keep parading it, then I guess I have to ask what even is the point of using it then if it only invites annoyance at this point instead of actual discussion?

 Yes annoyance to this board's snowflakes who'll try to fling accusations of racism at you and get the thread locked by the mods. Some people use the term with absolutely no relation to "that guy who did a cameo in Home Alone 2" and just want movies to remain a politically neutral art form.

[Thor 7,513]

FAME is a great film musical, with nice songs. It's a fond memory from my youth, watching this on the telly, even if I've never revisited it since. But yes -- it winning over TESB is one of the most flabbergasting decisions in the film music category, second only to THE MISSION losing out to ROUND MIDNIGHT.

 

As for CHARIOTS OF FIRE and MIDNIGHT EXPRESS winning those particular years, I fully support that. Even if they were up against other deserved candidates. Such seminal scores (also beyond the famous themes), brilliant in and out of the movie, and influencing generations of composers and scores.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Fame won because it was a more hip and trendy movie among critics and Academy members than TESB. They don't care about which score is the best, they just like to give awards to movies they parade as "the best Hollywood has to offer", even if it's only the best in their own minds.

 

It's the same reason why Round Midnight defeated The Mission and Aliens a few years later even though very little of it actually had an original score. It's not because they think the music of Round Midnight and Fame support their movies better than TESB and The Mission but rather because RM and Fame had more "clout" with Academy members.

 

And the same goes to All Quiet on Western Front, The Social Network, Babel, etc. Which is why film music fans shouldn't care about the Oscars at all. It's a vain popularity contest among some of the richest and most arrogant artists in the planet.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

I said it before. The academy simply prefers songs. The nominees are nominated by the music department and the choice is then made by all the academy members, who often have no clue about music. And if you play to them the song Fame or The Battle in the Snow and ask them, what they like better, they chose the song. That's it.

How else could Alan Menken win three years in a row. The academy loves songwriters and has apart from that no clue about music, I assume.

[Bellosh 3,419]

any score that has even a hint of yoda's theme should always win best score

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

You can't win them all (even when you deserve to).  It would have been kind of boring if JW just steamrolled through every awards ceremony whenever he wrote a great score.  Also keep in mind that Empire as a film was fairly divisive at the time so not everyone loved it 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

31 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

You can't win them all (even when you deserve to).  It would have been kind of boring if JW just steamrolled through every awards ceremony whenever he wrote a great score.  Also keep in mind that Empire as a film was fairly divisive at the time so not everyone loved it 

I wished Williams would have had a steamrolling period as Menken did... appart from his 5 wins.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I wished Williams would have had a steamrolling period as Menken did... appart from his 5 wins.

Could have been. 

Imagine him winning with Superman, TESB, Raiders and E.T. in a row. Who would have claimed, that wasn't deserved?

[ciarlese 251]

4 hours ago, Bellosh said:

any score that has even a hint of yoda's theme should always win best score

 

And THAT is why E.T. won it :).

[MisterXDTV 61]

I guess they were tired of giving him the Oscar every single year

 

Midnight Express beat Superman for God's sake. 

 

I still cry thinking about it.

 

If you think about it he could have won 5 oscars from 1977 to 1982 

 

In 1977 he could have won for either Star Wars or Close Encounters (they chose Star Wars)

In 1978 he should have won for Superman
In 1980 he should have won for Empire Strikes back
In 1981 he should have for Raiders of the Lost Ark
In 1982 he won for E.T

[Trumpeteer 302]

All great opinions about the win for Fame's score. But, the issue I bring up in my podcast is that the Academy allowed the score to be nominated alongside traditional underscores, which hadn't been allowed for about 30 years. Never mind that the Academy at large voted for Fame. The music branch voted to allow song scores to be eligible for Original Score alongside underscores. Song scores had their own category for many, many years and in 1980 the decision was made to specifically combine the two genres.

 

I try to keep a lot of opinions out of my podcast, as I simply want to tell the stories and let listeners make up their minds about whether a song should have been nominated for an Oscar, or win the Oscar. But I'll let you know here that the Academy should never have allowed song scores to be nominated alongside underscores, especially a musical like Fame, where there is almost no underscore. Alan Menken's wins were influenced by the songs, but there was a considerable amount of underscore in all four of his score wins.

 

I could have gone into more depth about this in the podcast, but the show is about the Original Song Oscar, not the Original Score Oscar. As I was researching for this particular episode, I found the rule change and immediately thought of my JWFan clan. I've been waiting for months to share it with you.

[Thor 7,513]

I agree, Jeff. The Menken wins are a whole other ballgame. Totally deserved, all of them, even if it made the Academy split the category in two.

 

Kudos to John Williams and SCHINDLER'S LIST for splitting up the animated Disney wins when the category was still one.

[Edmilson 7,466]

44 minutes ago, Thor said:

Kudos to John Williams and SCHINDLER'S LIST for splitting up the animated Disney wins when the category was still one.

Yeah but in 1993 there were no big Disney animations. Menken was busy with Pocahontas (I remember reading that that score took a considerable amount of time from him and led him to pass on The Lion King, which Zimmer scored).

 

Maaaaaaaaybeeee Elfman's The Nightmare Before Christmas could've been nominated (it was distributed by Disney and was an animated musical) but it had a far lower profile than Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, etc.

 

It's the same reason why Barry was "allowed" to win in 1990: no big Disney musical.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

On 30/11/2023 at 12:17 PM, King Mark said:

LotR  (which should NOT have won for 2 movies)

 

Truth.

 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

23 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Could have been. 

Imagine him winning with Superman, TESB, Raiders and E.T. in a row. Who would have claimed, that wasn't deserved?

 

Also he's had no problem steamrolling the Grammys lol

 

Awhile ago I noticed that statistically, the only two scores where Williams won a BAFTA and Grammy but not an Oscar were The Empire Strikes Back and Memoirs of a Geisha. So he should have at least had those. 

 

But it's also moot because he has over 50 Oscar nominations, not to mention other awards bodies. It's just trivia and numbers games, nobody can say Williams has gone unrecognized in his time. Oscars become representational, everyone reads "John Williams has 5 Oscars" or "Meryl Streep has 3 Oscars" and it makes sense. 

 

But it is funny to think Williams could probably have won like 12 Oscars for his most famous scores and it wouldn't really be held against him, minus the usual cranks. I don't get the impression Alan Menken's 8 Oscars are in dispute. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

On 30/11/2023 at 1:41 PM, Edmilson said:

the same goes to All Quiet on Western Front, The Social Network, Babel, etc. Which is why film music fans shouldn't care about the Oscars at all. It's a vain popularity contest among some of the richest and most arrogant artists in the planet.

 

Really? In the planet?

[GerateWohl 4,370]

19 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Maaaaaaaaybeeee Elfman's Nightmare on Elm Street could've been nominated (it was distributed by Disney and was an animated musical) but it had a far lower profile than Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, etc.

I remember Nightmare on Elm Street a little different. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

24 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Really? In the planet?

 

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

15 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I remember Nightmare on Elm Street a little different. 

Okay, I fixed it... But it's fun to imagine A Nightmare on Elm Street as a Disney musical with score and songs by Danny Elfman 

[Thor 7,513]

42 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah but in 1993 there were no big Disney animations. Menken was busy with Pocahontas (I remember reading that that score took a considerable amount of time from him and led him to pass on The Lion King, which Zimmer scored).

 

I know. But it looks neat on the list of winners. After SCHINDLER, LION KING wins, the split appears, and then POCAHONTAS wins the comedy/musical award after that. Then nothing in terms of animated Disney films. The categories are eventually merged again. So much ado about nothing!

 

42 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

 

Maaaaaaaaybeeee Elfman's The Nightmare Before Christmas could've been nominated (it was distributed by Disney and was an animated musical) but it had a far lower profile than Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, etc.

 

It did, yes, but by GOLLY how deserved it would have been. Elfman's best score, and on my top 10 alltime soundtrack list.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

Interesting that Elfman won Best Score at the Saturn Awards that year, beating Jurassic Park!