What scores have been ruined for you by their expansion?

[GerateWohl 4,498]

Not exactly ruined but at least lost some strength and magic.
With soundtracks I experienced an effect that might be comparable with reading a novel, that creates a brillant movie in your had. But then you watch a movie of that novel and you are disappointed because the images don't live up to what you imagined.
Like this imagining the images is sometimes adding the missing music of a score to the OST. Sometimes, if I am not too familiar with the score I imagine some terrific music left off the OST. 
But then, when I at last get to hear the remaining part on a C&C expansion what before was exciting becomes repetitive and a little boring.

 

In addition I have to say, I am an album listener. I don't use expansions just to create an optimized playlist from it, so I listen to the whole thing.

Is there any score, where the expansion led to some disillusionment or some fatigue on a score?

 

I for example have to say, even though I like, that now I could hear the songs, but somehow I feel, I used to listen to Hook more excitedly before all the scores secrets were revealed. It has lost some of its magic for me.

Basic Instinct is another example, where I liked the score more, when I just knew the OST program.

 

Anyone else experienced something similar?

 

[Thor 7,689]

28 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Anyone else experienced something similar?

 

Yes, almost always. Fortunately, I've rid myself of the expansion in time.

[Jurassic Shark 12,250]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

Fortunately, I've rid myself of the expansion in time.

 

I'm glad to hear it didn't do permanent damage.

[Thor 7,689]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I'm glad to hear it didn't do permanent damage.

 

Was a close call a few times, though.

[JTN 2,258]

None. The more the merrier. 

 

I’m the anti-Thor.

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,367]

None at all. The better question would be, what scores have been ruined for you due to a lack of expansion?

[Holko 9,622]

16 minutes ago, JTN said:

None. The more the merrier. 

 

I’m the anti-Thor.

 

 

Hey, that's my job!

[GerateWohl 4,498]

15 minutes ago, JTN said:

I’m the anti-Thor.

You should call yourself Roht or Roth.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,737]

Without the slightest hesitation: no.

Every expanded score that I have ever heard has been worth it.

It's like reading a book with all the chapters in place. It's how the score was meant to be heard.

I understand that not so long ago, we only had 40 minutes-ish of vinyl (80, if we were fortunate) to listen to, and that one could get used to hearing that, and accepting it. From the time that I started to collect soundtracks, however, I became painfully aware that so much music was missing from the record. I wanted this music, so I taped films off of the telly, then video, and then I started buying VHS tapes, just for the extra music.

Obsessional? Maybe. Enjoyable? Definitely.

Then came the chance to have all that music that was swamped by sound effects, and dialogue, and I grabbed it with both hands. I have never stopped.

There are people at JWfan who are very content with OSTs, and who do not have the desire to purchase all these expansions.

I'm down with that, but I want all the music that I can get.

[GerateWohl 4,498]

2 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

None at all. The better question would be, what scores have been ruined for you due to a lack of expansion?

Same. None at all. 

But there are a few scores that really benefitted from an expansion.

 

[JTN 2,258]

33 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

You should call yourself Roht or Roth.

Or Thor should call himself NTJ. 

[Giftheck 921]

47 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Without the slightest hesitation: no.

Every expanded score that I have ever heard has been worth it.

It's like reading a book with all the chapters in place. It's how the score was meant to be heard.

I understand that not so long ago, we only had 40 minutes-ish of vinyl (80, if we were fortunate) to listen to, and that one could get used to hearing that, and accepting it. From the time that I started to collect soundtracks, however, I became painfully aware that so much music was missing from the record. I wanted this music, so I taped films off of the telly, then video, and then I started buying VHS tapes, just for the extra music.

Obsessional? Maybe. Enjoyable? Definitely.

Then came the chance to have all that music that was swamped by sound effects, and dialogue, and I grabbed it with both hands. I have never stopped.

There are people at JWfan who are very content with OSTs, and who do not have the desire to purchase all these expansions.

I'm down with that, but I want all the music that I can get.

 

Pretty much all of this. Not once have I been disappointed with an expansion. But plenty of times I've been disappointed with an album presentation, wishing for more.

[Datameister 2,097]

I'm glad you started with the caveat about the word "ruined." I can't imagine that ever happening. But are there expanded scores that feel like they're … a little much? Sure.

 

Some random examples: 

 

•  Minority Report. It's not that any of the additional music is bad, but I just find the score as a whole to be a little long and monotonous. 
• Drop Zone. Most of the additional music is just nonessential variations on the essential stuff from the OST. (I'm glad the last cue is there, though. "After the Dub" never worked for me as the end of the OST.)
• Far and Away. This is an example of one where I haven't heard the OST, so I don't get the jolt of "Wow, I finally get to listen to this cue!" It just all blurs together into one nice but long presentation. 

 

I'm still glad I bought these, and I still do listen to them. But they do contrast with:

 

• OST-killers like Sky Captain, TLW, TWOK, the Potter set, etc.
• Scores where the OST uses different recordings to present a different experience—Jaws, E.T., etc. With those it just depends on which version I'm in the mood for, although the film scores often win out over the OSTs.
• Scores that never got a score OST to begin with, but I don't need one. Ferris Bueller's Day Off, The Haunted Mansion, and BTTF come to mind as examples. 

[Mr. Who 925]

I think while an OST might be well produced, the complete score is almost always a better presentation of the score, at least in cases where the composer properly tells the story through music using various themes and motifs. OST albums usually miss a lot of the thematic scoring and focuses on big set piece cues which kind of defeats the purpose in my view. Thematic scoring with lots of developments/variations of themes is my favorite aspect of film music so onece there's a complete version of a score, I tend to never go back to the OST again.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,737]

@Datameister, I'm more than happy with the OST of BACK TO THE FUTURE... and I even like the songs 

 

 

 

 

[Drawgoon 101]

I can't think of an example where it was the addition of new music deteriorated the listening experience, but there has been releases where it was the new presentation that killed the magic for me - whether it was because of all news mixes (e.g. Lion King), vocals dialed down or eliminated (e.g. Fellowship of the Ring, Batman Returns), instruments-pushed-back (e.g. percs in The Mummy), cues edited together to make lengthier cues even though the original cues really don't blend well together (e.g. Superman Returns, Peter Pan), previously released music suddenly goes missing (e.g. Hunchback of Notre Dame), or key sequences with previously unreleased music remain unreleased (nothing immediately comes to mind but my impression from some comments I read is that some listeners thought of Hellboy 2 that way.)

[Bellosh 3,515]

[JTN 2,258]

It’s the cover, right?

[bruce marshall 1,319]

THE WILD BUNCH

OUTLAND

CAPRICORN ONE

[Bellosh 3,515]

@JTN why don't you listen and we'll tell ya

 

 

[JTN 2,258]

Listening.

[Edmilson 7,653]

Maybe this is the time of revealing that I think I've never heard TPM OST? Every time I listened to that score start to finish it was either the UE or some bootleg.

 

I also haven't heard the original 80s OSTs for stuff like ROTJ, TOD, ET, etc. When I started listening to film scores regularly thankfully "longer" (even if imperfect - which I only learned years later) editions of them were available: the DCC and Concord for Indy, the SEs for Star Wars, the 2002 album for ET, etc.

[Bellosh 3,515]

7 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Yes, almost always. Fortunately, I've rid myself of the expansion in time.

 

but do you honestly believe the original OST's of, let's say, 1941 and ToD......are good?

 

or is that the 'almost' part.

 

because the 1941 OST is absolute cheeks.

[Thor 7,689]

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

but do you honestly believe the original OST's of, let's say, 1941 and ToD......are good?

 

Yes. I had a CD-R boot of the complete TOD once, and it almost ruined my entire appreciation of the score. Thank God I chucked it in the trash before it was too late, and I could start listening to my gorgeous Japanese OST import again, rebuilding my love of the score.

 

As for 1941, I can only take so much swing and march music before I go completely bonkers, so the OST presents the exact right cut-off point at 39 minutes. Even that is stretching it.

[JTN 2,258]

8 minutes ago, Thor said:

it almost ruined my entire appreciation of the score. Thank God I chucked it in the trash before it was too late

[Bellosh 3,515]

18 minutes ago, Thor said:

As for 1941, I can only take so much swing and march music before I go completely bonkers, so the OST presents the exact right cut-off point at 39 minutes. Even that is stretching it.

 

the OST has the main theme/suite essentially twice and the unlistenable 'the ferris wheel sequence'

 

so an OST with essentially 6 tracks.

[mstrox 6,682]

Expansions have never ruined OSTs for me, though there are plenty of scores for which I vastly prefer the OST.  Scores that become slogs in longer form and get very repetitive or don’t offer anything substantively interesting that wasn’t on the album.  One great reason to include intact OST presentations with expansions.

 

Other scores have OSTs that leave out musically significant highlights and are repetitive themselves, and the expansion gives it a little breathing room.  TPM or Elfman’s POTA fit that bill for me.
 

But most expansions are kind of a wash for me - both are fine listening presentations of the score.

[Thor 7,689]

17 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

the OST has the main theme/suite essentially twice and the unlistenable 'the ferris wheel sequence'

 

so an OST with essentially 6 tracks.

Beautiful.

[bruce marshall 1,319]

TOMBSTONE

43 minutes ago, JTN said:

I just keep the ost and sell or give away the expansion.

[Datameister 2,097]

4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

@Datameister, I'm more than happy with the OST of BACK TO THE FUTURE... and I even like the songs 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I love the songs. My preferred listening experience is a playlist combining the score and songs. But that's shocking to me that 12 minutes of score is enough for you. Especially considering the fact that the full film score isn't long. It's comparable to a typical OST.

[Stark 342]

There’s only about 12 minutes of unique music in Back to the Future anyway 

[Andy 4,284]

I haven’t had an expansion ruin a score with which I was already familiar. 
 

I have had expansions that are too much to take in for a first time listen of the score, and therefore sort of, well, yeah, ruined it for me.  One that comes to mind is Cutthroat Island.  Never saw the movie or heard the OST, just jumped right into the expansion and it was exhausting.  Now, that may be just that score. 
 

But, if you don’t know the basics of a score from repeated familiarity with the OST, then an expansion is often not a good place to begin. 

 

I’ve gotten wiser lately, and if the OST is included, I start with that first. Did that with the 3 Disc Godzilla (Arnold) and fell in love with it. Then, went back to Discs 1 and 2 for more. 
 

Im an expansion guy, but I also appreciate a good program.  

[Datameister 2,097]

4 hours ago, Stark said:

There’s only about 12 minutes of unique music in Back to the Future Part II anyway 

 

Fixed

[Schilkeman 1,016]

Minority Report was the catalyst for me coming around on ost presentations. I thought the original edits were much more listenable and musically interesting. I’ve now gotten rid of every expansion, except some of the older ones, which I keep for the remastered sound on the ost.

 

And yes, the ToD album is rad, just the way it is.

[Tom 4,692]

I only buy the expansions for scores that I really like/love, so more is always better.

 

Now, as to movies that have director's cuts or extended editions, most of those I find worse.  

[Datameister 2,097]

19 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

Minority Report was the catalyst for me coming around on ost presentations. I thought the original edits were much more listenable and musically interesting. I’ve now gotten rid of every expansion, except some of the older ones, which I keep for the remastered sound on the ost.

 

And yes, the ToD album is rad, just the way it is.

 

Such a 180. I feel no need to swing to that extreme. Minority Report is a better listen on the OST. So are some other scores. Still others aren't. I can't help seeing "THROW OUT ALL ADDITIONAL MUSIC" as a bit of an overcorrection.

 

It's all subjective, of course.

[Edmilson 7,653]

There are scores whose greatness can only be fully appreciated in complete form (for example, Howard Shore's LOTR - even though the Fellowship OST is pretty decent) and those that the OST is more than enough because it has all the highlights and the cues left off are filler suspense cues or other uninteresting material. 

 

Even though I tend to prefer the most complete as possible versions of scores, I also understand that this is not a zero sum game. It's not "every expansion is bad, OST is more than enough and be grateful for it!" nor "I need every second of music ever recorded for every score in existence!".

 

It varies: for some scores the complete presentation is preferable while for others an abridged presentation still shows all that score has to offer.

 

I'm thankful I'm "young" enough to not have experienced the old "30 minute OST" days though. 

[Tom 4,692]

14 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I'm thankful I'm "young" enough to not have experienced the old "30 minute OST" days though. 

I was great.  You could use them for intense nights of passion.  You would put on the soundtrack, and then 2-3 minutes later, you could listen to almost a full half hour of music.  

[Schilkeman 1,016]

42 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

Such a 180. I feel no need to swing to that extreme. Minority Report is a better listen on the OST. So are some other scores. Still others aren't. I can't help seeing "THROW OUT ALL ADDITIONAL MUSIC" as a bit of an overcorrection.

 

It's all subjective, of course.

It was a little more gradual than my description let on, but still, I have found almost all complete scores too full of cinematically functional, but otherwise uninteresting, music, and I started listening to composers when they say "I present it this way for a reason." It is, as you say, subjective, but I began listening a lot more when I went back to ost presentations. The best soundtrack is the one we listen to, after all. 

[Datameister 2,097]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

It was a little more gradual than my description let on, but still, I have found almost all complete scores too full of cinematically functional, but otherwise uninteresting, music, and I started listening to composers when they say "I present it this way for a reason." It is, as you say, subjective, but I began listening a lot more when I went back to ost presentations. The best soundtrack is the one we listen to, after all. 

 

I would agree that many complete scores are too full of functional but uninteresting music. Maybe the difference is that you have more interest in a wider variety of scores than I do? The scores with a lot of boring stuff tend to bore me in OST form, too.

[Holko 9,622]

4 hours ago, Andy said:

I have had expansions that are too much to take in for a first time listen of the score, and therefore sort of, well, yeah, ruined it for me.  One that comes to mind is Cutthroat Island.  Never saw the movie or heard the OST, just jumped right into the expansion and it was exhausting.  Now, that may be just that score. 

Never saw the movie or heard the OST but I listened to some tracks before buying it and knew it'd be big, loud and long. And sure, it was exhausting on first listen. But now I've seen the movie, listened to highlights a lot, I know what the score is doing and listened again and it was much more enjoyable. You just gotta know what you're getting into.

 

4 hours ago, Andy said:

But, if you don’t know the basics of a score from repeated familiarity with the OST, then an expansion is often not a good place to begin. 

I'm doing perfectly fine never having listened to the OSTs of most of the scores I own and love. Watching the movie and sneaking a listen or five of the expansion before deciding to buy it is the right way for me.

 

2 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I'm thankful I'm "young" enough to not have experienced the old "30 minute OST" days though. 

Yes! Oh man I remember my film score fandom starting with immense frustration that official releases suck ass, leave out great music and put them in random orders and combinations. Then I found the Shrine pretty early on and never bothered to look in the official direction, sustaining my fandom on leaks, rips and edits until buying TFA's OST as my first ever film score purchase, then noticing the JP set's upload thinking "huh, this looks real. Don't really care about these but they really released it all? Wow cool!" and then finding this place in 2017.

[Mr. Hooper 1,999]

Some scores are best enjoyed as suites, and for me 'The Cowboys' is one of them. I got restless listening to the repetitive and meandering Deluxe Edition from Varèse.

 

Some expansions are just for the completists, or for hardcore fans.

[JTN 2,258]

If people didn’t want every note a composer wrote for a film, there wouldn’t exist bootlegs and wouldn’t be such demand for expansions. We’ve been asking for expansions for the Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park, etc. scores for how long? 
 

The way I see it, a score should be listened to as a whole, every cue written to the film that either made it on screen or got cut in the editing process. If it’s heard in the film, it should be on the CD, simple as that. 
 

Honestly there shouldn’t even be “expansions” and “OSTs”, just OSTs that would be what the expansions are now.

 

An expansion can and does contain the shorter “OST” or album (LP) version of a score or can be easily edited down to that, that can be enjoyed by those who don’t want to listen to the complete version of a score. So it’s the optimal format for both types of fans.

 

The short(er) OST version is good only for one side of the spectrum, and not for the other. 
More is always better for both sides, less is only good for one of them, hence the validity and superiority of the expanded editions.

[Schilkeman 1,016]

41 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

I would agree that many complete scores are too full of functional but uninteresting music. Maybe the difference is that you have more interest in a wider variety of scores than I do? The scores with a lot of boring stuff tend to bore me in OST form, too.

Probably not, I tend to stick to the major composers, with an emphasis on Williams, Horner, and Goldsmith, but even there, there are many moments in expansions when I can tell a musical idea has been extended or truncated or subverted to fit what is happening on the screen, and interferes with the musical logic. I find OSTs get rid of a lot of that stuff, or rearrange it so that it isn't happening in a sequence, which is why, as in @Thor's fabled "listening experience," I prefer them.

[Holko 9,622]

If the composer knows how to compose music, the actual written score will have its musical logic and they know how to fit their ideas to picture in a satisfying way. I don't know why that doesn't translate into an ability to not butcher that logic in OSTs which often can have many edits and reorderings that make less musical sense.

[Schilkeman 1,016]

19 minutes ago, Holko said:

If the composer knows how to compose music, the actual written score will have its musical logic and they know how to fit their ideas to picture in a satisfying way.

The better composers are certainly good at doing this, but sometimes the film doesn't allow it. They are also good at arranging OST presentations, but sometimes leave off our favorite bits of music. But I agree with the above comment that having more options is better. I've made my choice and am happy with it. Maybe I'll go back on it later, who knows. What I do wish is that more films had score-only audio tracks. I still think it's the best way to listen to the full score.

[Holko 9,622]

13 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

What I do wish is that more films had score-only audio tracks. I still think it's the best way to listen to the full score.

Having done many many such restorations I shared on this forum, and having read about many of the troubles in bringing things like the TLJ and DOD iso scores back to their actual score form, I heavily disagree because of all the last minute editing and rethinking that causes cues to be cut down or replaced or partially replaced with sometimes horrid execution, and not nearly just in modern movies.

[JTN 2,258]

44 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

What I do wish is that more films had score-only audio tracks. I still think it's the best way to listen to the full score.

I agree, love isolated music only tracks on Blu-rays, although they have their issues that @Holko has pointed out.

I love complete (or expanded) CD releases for the same reason, to be able to enjoy everything the composer has written for a film I like, in chronological order, without forced edits.

[GerateWohl 4,498]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

If the composer knows how to compose music, the actual written score will have its musical logic and they know how to fit their ideas to picture in a satisfying way. I don't know why that doesn't translate into an ability to not butcher that logic in OSTs which often can have many edits and reorderings that make less musical sense.

That logic would only apply to wall-to-wall scores. But my initial question was not about what is basically better, OST or C&C, but if you experienced a good score losing strength and charm in C&C form like pouring water into the good wine.

[JTN 2,258]

8 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

like pouring water into the good wine.

How could the music the same composer wrote to the same film be water?

 

Sometimes a director cuts a scene because the producers or test audience doesn’t like it and the cue that was written to it goes with it. The composer wrote that cue the same way and with the same intention he did all the other cues that stayed in the final film. Adding that cue back to the main program is natural, it’s the intended, integral part of the original score. Thus an expansion can be called the Composer’s Cut à la a film’s Director’s Cut. 
If a composer wrote a score to scenes to tell a story musically with it, every cue has its own meaning and importance, that together make a coherent, cohesive, organic whole. You can only truly get to know a score if you listen to every cue that was composed.