What’s a score you wish John Williams hadn’t done?

[JTN 2,260]

I know this is a tough one, but life, ah, finds a way.

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

Stepmom. 

[JTN 2,260]

11 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Stepmom. 

Who would you have preferred to score it?

[Schilkeman 1,016]

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

25 minutes ago, JTN said:

Who would you have preferred to score it?

 

HanZ.

[GerateWohl 4,498]

42 minutes ago, JTN said:

What’s a score you wish John Williams hadn’t done?

You first.

[JTN 2,260]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

You first.

 

[Trope 543]

I honestly wish John Williams had never written a single score! There are literally hundreds of other composers out there better suited to every kind of film and genre. 

 

His music is often too complicated and not emotionally engaging (too highly constructed for my ears). And what's worse, he's so overrated, especially on this John Williams fan site where people unceasingly praise each of his works and bring up musical reasons (irrelevant!) to justify why his music is so good.

 

I don't like or listen to any of John Williams' scores, and I want everybody to know this!

[JTN 2,260]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Stepmom. 

It really is a tough question because although every score he did is either good or great, but the question is more like could another composer have done a better job at it? Or although JW wrote a good score, did it really fit the film? It’s still a hard question to answer, but maybe, just maybe another composer could’ve written better scores to the SW sequel trilogy…. And I adore Rey’s Theme. 

[BB-8 3,542]

Fanfare for the Vienna Philharmonic Ball

 

[GerateWohl 4,498]

20 minutes ago, JTN said:

It’s still a hard question to answer, but maybe, just maybe another composer could’ve written better scores to the SW sequel trilogy…. And I adore Rey’s Theme. 

All Star Wars scores from other composers proof that nobody is capable of writing better Star Wars scores than John Williams.

Do the sequels deserve John Williams's scores? At least for The Rise of Skywalker I would say...

 

Still they are great works of music that I wouldn't want to miss.

But without Williams' scores it would be much easier to ignore the sequels.

Actually, they are the only reason I don't.

[Richard Penna 3,783]

19 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

All Star Wars scores from other composers proof that nobody is capable of writing better Star Wars scores than John Williams.

 

Very unbalanced assessment there. Gia had to score R1 in a last minute replacement rush with obviously clear directives and limitations from Williams, and Powell's score has been overwhelmingly positively received across the board, apart perhaps from some who don't like his use of synth percussion.

 

From a film perspective no one else has had the opportunity to write for SW, so in fact that's an extremely limited indication that nobody can outwrite Williams for SW.

[JTN 2,260]

29 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

nobody is capable of writing better Star Wars scores than John Williams.

 

29 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

they are great works of music that I wouldn't want to miss.

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Very unbalanced assessment there. Gia had to score R1 in a last minute replacement rush with obviously clear directives and limitations from Williams, and Powell's score has been overwhelmingly positively received across the board, apart perhaps from some who don't like his use of synth percussion.

 

From a film perspective no one else has had the opportunity to write for SW, so in fact that's an extremely limited indication that nobody can outwrite Williams for SW.

 

Well, Desplat apparently can't...

[JTN 2,260]

31 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

they are great works of music that I wouldn't want to miss.

 

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, Desplat apparently can't...

When did he try?

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

31 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

nobody is capable of writing better Star Wars scores than John Williams.

 

Which John Williams are you referring to?

[JTN 2,260]

Obviously the writer.

[GerateWohl 4,498]

15 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Very unbalanced assessment there. Gia had to score R1 in a last minute replacement rush with obviously clear directives and limitations from Williams, and Powell's score has been overwhelmingly positively received across the board, apart perhaps from some who don't like his use of synth percussion.

 

From a film perspective no one else has had the opportunity to write for SW, so in fact that's an extremely limited indication that nobody can outwrite Williams for SW.

What sense does it make to limit the view on the movies while we have been blessed with numerous Star Wars scores for TV shows in the past years by Kevin Kiner, Ludwig Göransson, Joseph Shirley, Natalie Holt and last and least Nicholas Britell?

 

I didn't say that all these works were bad (even though some are), but that none of them can keep up with Williams work.

But I guess with "unballanced assessment" you mean "different from your assessment".

 

[Richard Penna 3,783]

Fair enough - the original statement goes under 'popular opinions'. I'd counter with the 'unpopular opinion' that the statement is just fan validation.

[GerateWohl 4,498]

And where is the expert assessment and explanation which Star Wars scores are even or better than Williams' and why? That would be an interesting read.

[JTN 2,260]

You still haven't told us what score(s) JW shouldn't have done iyo.

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

The Star Trek scores.

[JTN 2,260]

4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The Star Trek scores.

@GerateWohlYou still haven't told us what score(s) JW shouldn't have done iyo.

[GerateWohl 4,498]

He shouldn't have done HP2 and Memoirs of a Geisha so he would have had more time to properly concentrate on the work for AOTC and ROTS.

[JTN 2,260]

Your answer is much better than mine, Ger. 
 

 

[filmmusic 1,910]

First that came in mind:

The Star Wars sequels scores (I think 6 scores already were enough and he could compose something else, something new and original instead), Dial of Destiny (same reason).

12 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Memoirs of a Geisha

Wow! This is one of my favorite scores (as you can tell from my avatar too)

[oierem 165]

19 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

He shouldn't have done HP2 and Memoirs of a Geisha so he would have had more time to properly concentrate on the work for AOTC and ROTS.

Not true.

By the time he started working on both HP2 and Memoirs, both SW films were already released.

[Richard Penna 3,783]

DoD and CMIYC

 

The former is such a lack of fresh ideas and reuse. The latter prevented him completing CoS properly.

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

CMIYC > COS

[Richard Penna 3,783]

Fully original and completed COS > CMIYC

[GerateWohl 4,498]

14 minutes ago, oierem said:

Not true.

By the time he started working on both HP2 and Memoirs, both SW films were already released.

Ok. Then I take that back.

 

Maybe it would not have hurt, if Williams hadn't written "John Goldfarb, Please Come Home".

 

21 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Wow! This is one of my favorite scores (as you can tell from my avatar too)

I know. It is for many people. For me the score is not essential as almost every theme there reminds me of something from another score like "Sayri's Theme" is somewhere between "Cinque's Theme" from Amistad and something from Seven Years in Tibet. The chord progression in "The Chairman's Waltz" had something from "Abandoned in the Woods" in three quarter time. And there are more examples.

Still it is a great score. But as it stands on the shoulders of previous scores I didn't find it so unique. 

[Edmilson 7,655]

None of them. Each score we get from John Williams is precious and should be cherished.

 

Actually, I wish Spielberg was less anxious to release his movies and dated Catch Me If You Can for 2003 and Munich (or maybe Memoirs, which he produced) for 2006. This way Williams could fully concentrate on Chamber of the Secrets (I'm 100% sure a CoS with 100% of JW's attention would be better than HP1 and perhaps even ahead of HP3) and maybe do Goblet of Fire.

 

Imagine how wonderful this timeline for John Williams scores in the 2000s could've been:

• 2002: Attack of the Clones and Minority Report in the summer, Chamber of Secrets (with 100% of his attention and no William Ross re-recording HP1 stuff) later;
• 2003: Catch Me If You Can;
• 2004: Prisoner of Azkaban and The Terminal;
• 2005: Revenge of the Sith and War of the Worlds in the summer, Goblet of Fire and Munich/Memoirs later;
• 2006: Munich or Memoirs;
• 2007: Order of the Phoenix;
• 2008: Crystal Skull;
• 2009: Half-Blood Prince

And before anyone quotes me: yeah, I'm aware of all the awful things the director of Goblet of Fire said about JW, I'm trying to imagine the most perfect (for JW fans) timeline as possible.

[Yavar Moradi 2,652]

6 hours ago, JTN said:

Who would you have preferred to score it?

Patrick Doyle, who wrote a great score for it which was rejected… as far as I can tell, for no other reason than John Williams agreeing to score the film. I don’t hate the Williams score but Doyle’s Stepmom is much better.

 

Yavar

[Erik Woods 570]

3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Very unbalanced assessment there. Gia had to score R1 in a last minute replacement rush with obviously clear directives and limitations from Williams, and Powell's score has been overwhelmingly positively received across the board, apart perhaps from some who don't like his use of synth percussion.

 

From a film perspective no one else has had the opportunity to write for SW, so in fact that's an extremely limited indication that nobody can outwrite Williams for SW.

There were NO directives or limitations from Williams. That rumour is bullshit!

 

-Erik-

[JTN 2,260]

59 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

as far as I can tell, for no other reason than John Williams agreeing to score the film.

Wow, that doesn't sound too nice, if true.

 

 

2 hours ago, filmmusic said:

The Star Wars sequels scores (I think 6 scores already were enough and he could compose something else, something new and original instead), Dial of Destiny (same reason).

This is my my answer too.

[Erik Woods 570]

52 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Patrick Doyle, who wrote a great score for it which was rejected… as far as I can tell, for no other reason than John Williams agreeing to score the film. I don’t hate the Williams score but Doyle’s Stepmom is much better.

 

Yavar

 

Doyle's score was rejected because Columbus thought it, as lovely as it is, was far too sentimental. From what I can remember from my research, when writing my script for Williams' 90th birthday show, Doyle was asked to rewrite portions of the score but was far too sick, so his score was replaced by Williams, who was told to tone back on the tragedy of the film and produce a far more restrained score.

 

-Erik-

[JTN 2,260]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I'm 100% sure a CoS with 100% of JW's attention would be better than HP1 and perhaps even ahead of HP3) and maybe do Goblet of Fire

I agree. Williams almost always outshines his first score with the sequel.

Jaws 2 (for many) > Jaws

The Empire Strikes Back > A New Hope

Temple of Doom (for many) > Raiders

The Lost World (for many) > Jurassic Park

 

Imagine what he could've done if he'd gotten along with Richard Lester on Superman II or had Donner stayed on the project. 

 

 

[GerateWohl 4,498]

11 minutes ago, Erik Woods said:

Doyle's score was rejected because Columbus thought it, as lovely as it is, was far too sentimental. From what I can remember from my research, when writing my script for Williams' 90th birthday show, Doyle was asked to rewrite portions of the score but was far too sick, so his score was replaced by Williams, who was told to tone back on the tragedy of the film and produce a far more restrained score.

 

-Erik-

That is the irony in this story, that in a movie about a mother getting sick from cancer being replaced by the husband by another woman the score composer becoming sick from cancer being replaced by the director by another composer. 

[Erik Woods 570]

Indeed!

 

-Erik-

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

The post?

 

So he could have written Ready player one?

[Fabulin 3,523]

Not a score, but the Boston Pops tenure did put a dent on his time for composition. Who knows what films would he have scored in the same period instead...

[Tom 4,692]

There are none that I would wish such based on their musical qualities.  But, yeah, you feel bad for him for scores for disappointing movies.  The Post feels rushed, preachy, contrived, and hallow to the hilt.  Amistad, The Book Thief--any "serious" movie that fails in a basic way.  

[JTN 2,260]

With the exception of AMISTAD, which I think is a powerful historical courtroom drama, I agree.

[Richard Penna 3,783]

57 minutes ago, Erik Woods said:

There were NO directives or limitations from Williams. That rumour is bullshit!

 

Interesting... you have to wonder where rumours like that come from. Several I've heard revolve around Williams being unhappy about material produced by someone else - they have the whiff of a fan trying to manufacture sympathy for their idol.

[Jurassic Shark 12,253]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

The post?

 

So he could have written Ready player one?

 

Nope.

[Bellosh 3,515]

What's a Thread You Wish JTN hadn't done

[filmmusic 1,910]

3 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Not a score, but the Boston Pops tenure did put a dent on his time for composition. Who knows what films would he have scored in the same period instead...

Oh, hadn't thought of that!

I agree!

[JTN 2,260]

I always thought that JW only did SPACECAMP as a favour to Spielberg because Kate Capshaw starred in it, and the producers probably wanted the biggest name to score it and all Kate probably had to do was ask her ToD director, soon-to-be husband to ask his buddy John to do it. Maybe this wasn’t the case, but it’s hard for me to imagine any other scenario.
So many big movies were released that year that JW could’ve done instead of SC. Like Howard the Duck (just kidding. But tbh HTD was supposed to be a huge success, produced by Lucas at the height of his power, the film was based on a successful comic book, with Lea Thompson in one of the leading roles. But we all know how it turned out. But it’s completely plausable that Lucas could’ve asked JW to do it. Who knows, maybe he did ask.)

[Arnaud2 14]

6 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Not a score, but the Boston Pops tenure did put a dent on his time for composition. Who knows what films would he have scored in the same period instead...

What time it took from him is nothing compared to the experience and prestige the position brought him. And the many great records for us. I consider his involvement with the Boston Pops a crucial element of his life’s work.

To answer the original post, I wish Williams had not written the score for Dial of Destiny. Sure, I like having an extra JW score and there are some good things in it but the whole enterprise was a disgrace.

[Erik Woods 570]

6 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Interesting... you have to wonder where rumours like that come from. Several I've heard revolve around Williams being unhappy about material produced by someone else - they have the whiff of a fan trying to manufacture sympathy for their idol.

No idea, but there are people in the film score community that have more clout in these parts and on social media than I do who spew this nonsense based on hearing something from a friend of a friend of a friend who knows someone who is a friend of a friend they "trust." 

 

 

2 hours ago, JTN said:

I always thought that JW only did SPACECAMP as a favour to Spielberg because Kate Capshaw starred in it, and the producers probably wanted the biggest name to score it and all Kate probably had to do was ask her ToD director, soon-to-be husband to ask his buddy John to do it. Maybe this wasn’t the case, but it’s hard for me to imagine any other scenario.

Actually, Williams had an opening in his schedule. In the liner notes it says, "Upon hearing about the opening in Williams’ schedule, (Lionel) Newman suggested SpaceCamp, which the studio (20th Century Fox) was set to release, as a final project they might work on together."

 

-Erik-