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The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread


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Well, I just finished listening and overall I think it's pretty great. There are some slower moments, but there are a lot of amazing, "Williams magic" parts that I wasn't expecting. The newly arrang

As I've said before, I think I know what's missing. Charm & grace. Gone is our 20th century Tchaikovsky in Crystal Skull. In the past even when John scored wall-to-wall or even not, he unders

Yes. Imagine Williams re-using Leia's Theme for Return Of The Jedi instead of Luke and Leia.

I didn't realise there's that much confusion about the themes in Last Crusade. There are three themes IMO:

The theme for the Grail and its keepers, which is playing, for instance, when Indy asks Marcus if he believed the Grail existed. That's the one in Indy 4.

The theme for Indy and his father, as heard in Scherzo For Motorcycle.

And, in my eyes, there's another theme for their family relationship, which plays for instance at the beginning of "Canyon Of The Crescent Moon".

You can convince me of many things, but not that the Grail theme has any connections to the Jones family turmoils.

Williams doesn't even remember Fawkes The Phoenix, which was only six years ago, it's bordering the impossible that he knew THAT theme had subtle connections to Henry Jones sr.

It's not a matter of whether it sounds great or not. It does sound great in the film, but someone who knows the music gets completely thrown out of the moment.

Well, that's an odd inclusion. Is Williams forgetting things again?
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Williams doesn't even remember Fawkes The Phoenix, which was only six years ago, it's bordering the impossible that he knew THAT theme had subtle connections to Henry Jones sr.

What's that comment supposed to mean? You're talking like an obsessed stalker wanting to own his object of desire . . .

;)

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and what do you think of the music, so far I've listened to it one and 1/2 times. I'm still pondering it, but I think at this point I know I like it better than munich(sh**), Geisha(probably a better score but boring), ROTS, aotc, terminal, minority report, and A.I.

Oh my!! I hope you respect newbies in here, we are all the same!! hehehe

I just wanted to let you know how amazed i am to read taht Geisha is boring!!! hehe, just that i knwo everybodys entitled to think whathever they want, we all live in free countries!hehe

talking about indy IV.... i live in the 3rd world and the cd hasnt arrived here =(

obviosuly im DYING to get my hands on this one, its been such a long time mr williams!!!!!

in the meantime i jus tlisten the official page and amazon clips, how sad is that???

I dont understand a lot of discussions about the first 3 films because, as you all know, we're still waiting for the CD release! and im not old enough to have the original scores

greetings everyone, i¿ve read this site for 4 or 5 years now but the quantity and quality of the comments in here overwhelms me!!!

love you guys, long live JW!

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The theme for the Grail and its keepers, which is playing, for instance, when Indy asks Marcus if he believed the Grail existed. That's the one in Indy 4.

quote]

If you're talking about the scene in LC in father's house then that's incorrect. The theme that appears in KOTC (which some people call Illumination theme) is the one from the last track in the end credits just after Raider's march (in LC). Just saw it again (the movie) and checked. It works well, I think.

having said that, I don't quite understand the first statement of Ark theme. It doesn't fit well and spoils something that we will see several minutes later, because it suggests it in advance.. But in the end it's not the first time JW uses a theme out of context.

Karol

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and what do you think of the music, so far I've listened to it one and 1/2 times. I'm still pondering it, but I think at this point I know I like it better than munich(sh**), Geisha(probably a better score but boring), ROTS, aotc, terminal, minority report, and A.I.

Oh my!! I hope you respect newbies in here, we are all the same!! hehehe

I just wanted to let you know how amazed i am to read taht Geisha is boring!!! hehe, just that i knwo everybodys entitled to think whathever they want, we all live in free countries!hehe

talking about indy IV.... i live in the 3rd world and the cd hasnt arrived here =(

obviosuly im DYING to get my hands on this one, its been such a long time mr williams!!!!!

in the meantime i jus tlisten the official page and amazon clips, how sad is that???

I dont understand a lot of discussions about the first 3 films because, as you all know, we're still waiting for the CD release! and im not old enough to have the original scores

greetings everyone, i¿ve read this site for 4 or 5 years now but the quantity and quality of the comments in here overwhelms me!!!

love you guys, long live JW!

Welcome to the board!

May I ask which 3rd world country you're writing from? And how old are you? ;)

Memoirs boring . . . well, that's just one opinion. I for one love it. A masterpiece, in fact.

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Joe respecting newbies? ;)

I think newbies should earn their place, at the back of the line. I was very nice to TimurA the other day, I'll have you know.

'Course I don't think of first time posters as newbies, now if they stick around......

koray & Indy4 asked me when I was going to quit thinking of them as a newbies,

I told them if you're not born on the island you're not an islander.

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If you're talking about the scene in LC in father's house then that's incorrect. The theme that appears in KOTC is the one from the last track in the end credits just after Raider's march (in LC). Just saw it again (the movie) and checked.

Okay, maybe I don't remember correctly.

But that's it, that's the theme for the Grail, not for Henry Jones sr. If not, then this would leave Last Crusade without musical representation of the Grail, which is kind of an odd thing to assume.

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I hope to be considered a newbie as long as my stay here permits. It's not often that newbies piss people off.

If I'm not considered a newbie then maybe it's time to create a fresh account (Mmmm, mind games...). The last thing I want is for the rot to set in.

Oh and by the way, the new Indy score is average, as is the movie.

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If you're talking about the scene in LC in father's house then that's incorrect. The theme that appears in KOTC is the one from the last track in the end credits just after Raider's march (in LC). Just saw it again (the movie) and checked.

Okay, maybe I don't remember correctly.

But that's it, that's the theme for the Grail, not for Henry Jones sr. If not, then this would leave Last Crusade without musical representation of the Grail, which is kind of an odd thing to assume.

He was obsessed with it, so it wouldn't be so much out of the context to use theme associated with Grail to illustrate this particular character. But I would agree that it's not entirely clear which is which. :)

Karol

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There is a theme for Indy and his Dad which is the track titled "Keeping Up with The Joneses" on the LC CD. I think that cue was meant to underscore the escape from the blimp and the following pursuit where Henry scares the birds into the plane.

I believe snippets of the theme is used once or twice in LC. I'll be honest I can't remember this stuff like I used to.

Since the theme wasn't used that much perhaps Williams felt the Grail theme would play better on the audience's minds when referring to Henry in KOTCS since it received more play in LC.

Or perhaps he felt it represented Henry's character in a more dignified way.

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I always associated the Grail theme as the one that plays over Henry writing in the diary in the beginning of TLC, and the one used in KOTCS as the Illumination theme, although I don't really think it's a huge stretch for JW to use it to remember Henry. It worked fine for me in the movie, so I'm okay with it.

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Semantics. Why not call it the "Crusade" theme? Or "Henry's Search for the Grail" theme? Williams more often than not uses thematic melodic material to represent ideas and highlight relationships, not always every bloody unique object and character of every film.

And even if by some law it is to be known as "The Grail" theme, "Hedwig's Theme" essentially portrays a totally different character in Harry Potter -- yet Harry and Hedwig share a pretty tenuous relationship at best -- so it's not much of a stretch for Williams to use the Grail's motif to depict the character with whom it shares such a deep connection!

Not only that, but Williams is all about our musical conscience, i.e., part of his job is to consider whatour understanding of Henry Jones is musically, and whatever you want to name the melody, Williams decided that -- of all The Last Crusade themes -- that was the one that would produce the audience's greatest and most loving recollection of said character.

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Here's the LC breakdown that seems to be causing confusion:

THE GRAIL THEME is the motif heard during Donovan and Indy's first meeting, at the start of "The Penitent Man Will Pass," and during the finale when Henry Sr. and Indy see the Knight as the Temple is collapsing. It represents the Grail.

THE KNIGHT THEME is the motif heard during Indy's first meeting with his father at Castle Brunwald, in "Ah, Rats!" when he says how his father is scared of rats, and it is the first theme stated after the main march during the end credits. It is also prominently featured in "The Last Knight."

THE PAPA JONES THEME is the motif heard when Marcus says "the Pen is Mightier than the Sword," and is heard at the end of "Keeping Up With the Joneses."

A variation on this theme is heard when Papa Jones sees the grail for the first time and holds it. THIS VARIATION IS WHAT WE HEAR IN INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL.

Hence, the theme in the new movie is the Papa Jones theme.

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I don't think you get my point.

That theme is the identity of Last Crusade, and, whether it's exclusive to the Grail or not, *does* connect with the Grail; and although KOTCS touches many things of the first three, if there's one thing that has nothing to do with the KOTCS storyline, then it's Henry's connection to the Holy Grail.

It simply doesn't fit the context, and even though it fulfills its task of creating an atmosphere of relief and conclusion, it's a major element in the "why KOTCS lacks unique character" puzzle.

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Crap! Where is everyone getting the jewel case version? I went to Wal-Mart and all they had was digipacks, but I wanted to contribute...and I wanted to hear it, like yesterday, so I grabbed it after work today. I don't understand that. Lame.

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I don't understand why you guys are hyping the LC motif so much. Worse case, as stated earlier, it's the 2007 version of Leia's theme in Ben's Death... or Yoda's Theme in The Duel. They all work perfectly, and everyone who's seen KOTCS immediately associated the LC motif at the end with Prof. Henry Jones I.

The other thing I don't understand is the criticism of the OST. I just finished listening and I think it's phenomenal. Maybe I'm one of

the aliens from the movie

. Apparently.

EDITED BY MODERATOR: USE THE SPOILER TOOL WHEN YOU POST YOUR REPLY. IF I SEE ONE MORE UNCOVERED SPOILER I WILL BAN THE USER.

THANK YOU.

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I think the action scenes are the bearing the brunt of the complaints. I would've preferred something a bit closer to "The Adventures of Mutt," in that it is more cohesive and focused. There's a lot of great stuff. "The Spell of the Skull" is really good. A lot of the dark and majestic parts are a delightful blend of old-school with a bit of a modern sheen to it. I'm certainly enjoying it.

EDIT: My only complaint on the LC theme is that it would've been nice to hear the Papa Jones theme, something like the end of "The Quest for the Grail," right before the shot of the road sign to Berlin. The idea comes across for me, though.

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Leia's Theme was written for A New Hope and was used in A New Hope. Yoda's Theme was written for ESB and was used in ESB. The Grail theme was written for Last Crusade, and used in KOTCS in a very irritating way.

It's all the heavier if you consider that this entire finale, after the escape, doesn't feature ONE theme from KOTCS. It's simply unoriginal. Extremely so.

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Leia's Theme was used in all three original movies. Yoda's Theme was used in ESB and ROTJ. Not sure where the problem is. Musical semantics, perhaps, but it's not like there's no precedence for this sort of thing.

Where would you have used a theme from KOTCS in the finale, and what would it have been?

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Why do you ask me? Ask Williams why he didn't write enough original music.

Don't you see the blatant mistake in your thinking? Of course Leia's Theme was featured in ESB and ROTJ - these films STARRED Leia.

What has KOTCS to do with the Grail and/or Henry sr? More precisely, what has the scene that it scores to do with it?

Nothing. Everything else clearly stretches the imagination.

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I ask you because I don't see where there was real opportunity to use one of the new themes in the finale

if you're talking about after the ship transports

. The themes used were perfectly appropriate to what was going on.

The first scene with the theme shows Indy reflecting on the changing times, including his father's passing, even including a picture of Henry. The last usage is more involving Indy

becoming the father figure--and Henry is namelessly referenced in that scene as well. I don't see why it's that big of a problem.

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I've listened to the CD now. What was also already apparent from the film, was that I had hoped that Williams would return to a more thematic mode of writing for the action scenes, and it seems he didn't even made any effort to do that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who will for ever be nostalgic to his so-called golden years, and I mostly like his rhythmic turn (I think War of the Worlds is a great effort), but what his action cues have too much here, for me, is:

- trumpets à la his olympic themes (I'm not a particular fan of Williams's fanfares and the like)

- the Hook and Home Alone (and HP I and II) style in a lot of moments, especially in Mutt's theme, which is easily the least theme of the three new suites. I've got nothing against orchestral play (and much of this new Williams score has much play in it, in the sense that it also resembles his classical music a lot. But I like it more as in Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra, where there's a clear sense of build-up and structure, not as in the bouncing around in Mutt's theme.

By the way, I also don't particularly like the integration of the Raiders march in that theme (it's a bit like Battle of the Heroes in this sense).

- the action writing à la the first two prequels (and the two Grievous tracks in the third), with that particular sound he just keeps using: the high-tone/note (dunno how to describe this) swooshes above a not-so-engaging static rhythm.

(- as I said before, the overuse of the Raiders March and the quotes (rather literal on top), which aren't really necessary. I always prefer to hear new music.)

In other words, what I think is missing from this album and from the film is a central setpiece, like Slave Children's Crusade, Scherzo for M & O, or Belly of the Steel Beast.

That said, I really like the rest and the non-action stuff. I'm really very fond of the Skull theme and especially Irina's theme - track 4 and the end credits are definitely highlights. The War of the Worlds quote is actually very nice and it's a good example of a cue that does build up towards something.

It's also a very good album I think, much more balanced than many other recent Williams albums. On top of that, I don't think there's any significant unreleased music (apart perhaps from some underscore from the opening sequences), which is always a bonus certainly in this climate of 'let's (probably) not release expanded Indy scores because it's prohibitively costly'.

I'll add some more positive comments, because I really think this is a splendid new John Williams score (just somewhat disappointed with the action cues). I had hoped for a variation of the Raiders March and I'm glad he did it (although it was a bit late in the game :D) - at a certain point I didn't think he'd do it (what with the literal quotations in Revenge of the Sith already). The Skull theme is certainly not as striking in the film, but I think it got rightly a central place on the album. A pity that Irina's theme didn't get more attention on the album by the way, because that's the surprise of the album I'd say.

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I don't see why it's that big of a problem.

Because it takes away thematic originality from a score that has little of it in the first place.

Yeah, and when Indy does something heroic, let's not use the Raiders March, because it takes away thematic originality. We've got at least three new themes in this film, maybe four if you count that section from "Irina's Theme" and "Ants!" as a Russian motif. The theme is appropriate because both places where it is used are connecting with Henry Jones I, and the family dynamic which was established in LC. What would you prefer? New material which is totally unrelated to those thematic elements which are indeed present in those scenes? I don't see how that would be beneficial.

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having said that, I don't quite understand

the first statement of Ark theme. It doesn't fit well and spoils something that we will see several minutes later, because it suggests it in advance.

. But in the end it's not the first time JW uses a theme out of context.

Karol

I think it's not out of context... remember, that theme accompanied the last time we saw

the warehouse.

So i consider it fitting hearing the theme when we see it again.

edit: Luke, you might put a spoiler there, I don't know if everyone wants to read this. :D

edit2: in my most humble opinion, FattyMcButterpants is a pedant and should relax his narrowminded attitude.

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having said that, I don't quite understand

the first statement of Ark theme. It doesn't fit well and spoils something that we will see several minutes later, because it suggests it in advance.

. But in the end it's not the first time JW uses a theme out of context.

Karol

I think it's not out of context... remember, that theme accompanied the last time we saw

the warehouse.

So i consider it fitting hearing the theme when we see it again.

yeah not using the ark theme there would have seem odd.

Heck we have Yoda's theme when yoda is not in screen, and leia's theme when ben dies. The indy scene has at least some (tangible) connection

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It's not very narrowsighted when I point out that Indy 4 is the only film of the four that doesn't have a single original note in its finale, which is not only true, but very obvious.

I don't see how you can be content with that.

It's not an issue of which KOTCS theme would have been fitting instead; it's an issue about Williams simply failing to write a new idea for a new Jones family situation.

It's not like I reject the idea of referencing that LC theme per se (I loved the small bit playing over the photograph), but that's what it should remain, a reference.

The whole thematic balance is simply off-kilter. You have, like you've pointed out, Irina's Theme and the Skull theme permeating longer parts of the film, and yet, in crucial moments, you have secondary ideas taking center stage. An hommage should be just that, an hommage.

The comparison with the Raiders March is senseless because the March is Indy's theme, and these are his movies.

If you wanted to bring up logic, you could say that the reprisal of that particular theme doesn't do justice to the movie because it's a whole new family situation.

By your logic, "Luke and Leia" could have easily been replaced by Leia's Theme, or even Han Solo and The Princess - after all, there's "some tangible connection" too, right?

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The comparison with the Raiders March is senseless because the March is Indy's theme, and these are his movies.

If you wanted to bring up logic, you could say that the reprisal of that particular theme doesn't do justice to the movie because it's a whole new family situation.

By your logic, "Luke and Leia" could have easily been replaced by Leia's Theme, or even Han Solo and The Princess - after all, there's "some tangible connection" too, right?

Luke and leia should have been used in Padme's destiny. that's what i think.

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thank you joe and josh

Im 25 and I'm from Mexico

So, for obvious reasons I think we'll get the same package as US but I really don't care about it, all i want is the disc!!!

i'm new im here but i know and visir JWFan for 5 years now, I have 40+ albums :D

I know many of you have like a 100 or more, someday I will too, hehe

tomorrow morning I am going to see the film and i will read everything in here withour fear of spoilers!

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It's not very narrowsighted when I point out that Indy 4 is the only film of the four that doesn't have a single original note in its finale, which is not only true, but very obvious.

I don't see how you can be content with that.

It's not an issue of which KOTCS theme would have been fitting instead; it's an issue about Williams simply failing to write a new idea for a new Jones family situation.

It's not like I reject the idea of referencing that LC theme per se (I loved the small bit playing over the photograph), but that's what it should remain, a reference.

The whole thematic balance is simply off-kilter. You have, like you've pointed out, Irina's Theme and the Skull theme permeating longer parts of the film, and yet, in crucial moments, you have secondary ideas taking center stage. An hommage should be just that, an hommage.

The comparison with the Raiders March is senseless because the March is Indy's theme, and these are his movies.

If you wanted to bring up logic, you could say that the reprisal of that particular theme doesn't do justice to the movie because it's a whole new family situation.

By your logic, "Luke and Leia" could have easily been replaced by Leia's Theme, or even Han Solo and The Princess - after all, there's "some tangible connection" too, right?

As others have noticed (with delight), the arrangement of Marion's Theme in the finale is new. If you're talking about new melodic material, well...I don't think anything else would have been right for the finale than what was used, frankly. Sorry if that cheeses you off, but I still don't see the problem. The only thing I could see being right would be an integration of Mutt's theme...somewhere...maybe...or maybe not.

"Han Solo and the Princess" would be ludicrous, because that's for HAN and Leia. Leia's Theme could work, but it is nice to have "Luke and Leia"--even if it is a love theme. At any rate, while that theme was only used for one scene, and so it wouldn't be ridiculous to have the new material for the one scene before the finale, I must again say that the theme is certainly appropriate. Yes, it is a new family situation in a sense, but part of the thing is also that the dynamic is shifted now that Henry is gone.

Indy is the father, and Mutt the son.

Again, Henry is also mentioned in the scene. Additionally, one could also relate the theme to "Illumination," which in some sense is also appropos for Indy's understanding of

the alien's treasure.

Would I have liked new material? Probably. But what was used makes sense, and I'm certainly not gonna get my undies in a twist over it.

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I don't think anything else would have been right for the finale than what was used, frankly.

I bet if Williams had written a new short theme for it, and I would ask why he didn't simply reuse the theme from Last Crusade, you'd disagree with me as well.

You still don't see the point.

It's not about whether the theme fits; it's not about whether the theme makes sense. It's about the very fact that it's a completely, utterly, flat out unoriginal finale. I don't listen to the finale of KOTCS because I want to hear Last Crusade and Raiders combined, I listen to it because I want to hear a KOTCS finale. Which isn't there, at all.

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I was thrown off by

the Knight music in KOTCS, but reading others' thoughts on it leads me to think it's not such a big deal, since it does have a connection to Henry Sr. too.

And 96% of audience members won't think anything of it.

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Speaking of Henry, I noticed something that may have been a homage to him.

When Marcus' statue's head was broken off, Shia wheeled around and grinned at Indy, but Indy gave him a cold, dissaproving look. This reminded me of LC, when Indy kills the last of the motorcyclists and then looks at his dad, laughing, only to find his dad giving his a cold, dissaproving look. Obviously, Indy has a good reason--the statue of his good friend was just beheaded. But still, the similarities were nice. Perhaps a bit of foreshadowing of Indy becoming the father figure of Shia?

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The theme that appears in KOTCS, unless I'm going crazy which is possible, was Henry's theme. The grail theme had such a distinctly religious melody that it would seem odd to conflate the two. That's not to say JW used the father theme in 100% consistent way in Last Crusade but it seemed pretty clear to me that was supposed to represent the father's relationship to Indy in Last Crusade. But maybe I'm missing something in the discussion here.

- Adam

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Just got back from the movie.

They left quite a bit of good stuff off the album. The whole jungle sequence (not the chase) has amazing music. And it's much more cohesive in the movie. Feels more like his older action set pieces. Also some nice variations of Marion's theme and Indy's theme and Mutt's theme.

Makes me want a complete score REALLY bad.

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