Star Wars Disenchantment

[GerateWohl 4,410]

23 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I think Star Wars, for a morality play, has two moments of absolute moral bankruptcy. One is Kylo Ren's redemption, the other is Padme's "to be angry is to be human." Both are deplorable.

Why is Kylo's redemption more moral bankrutcy than Vader 's?

[Sweeping Strings 2,384]

15 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I think Star Wars would be improved if they explain that what we see in Return of the Jedi is actually the sarlaac’s butt hole.

Meaning that when it farts, anyone who'd fallen in there would likely be expelled at great speed into those rows of hooked teeth. Nasty, but surely a preferable way to go than being digested over a thousand years. 

[enderdrag64 626]

36 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

Yeah, it does seem pretty out of character for her to reassure him that slaughtering a whole village is "nobody's perfect" territory.

Wasn't that entire line added after the movie had come out already?

[Jay 37,440]

[Chen G. 3,981]

51 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Why is Kylo's redemption more moral bankrutcy than Vader 's?

 

Any number of reasons. One is that Vader's redemption is a lot less tokenistic: he kills the Emperor at the cost of his own life. Kylo doesn't kill the Emperor: Kylo just gives Rey her saber back. I'm sorry, but a spot of roadside assistance only counts for so much.

 

Another reason is that Vader's redemption is just presented to us as a change of heart. No sooner does he decided on it, does he throw the Emperor down the shaft, and in his next scene he expires. Kylo changes his heart about two-thirds of the way through the movie, so we are expected to spend a considerable amount of screentime activelly rooting for this murderous neurotic.

 

We can also start doing the math and see that, if we compare trilogy to trilogy (which is only fair), Kylo is a much, much more vile individual than is Vader. In fact, Kylo's "journey" begins in earnest in doing the very thing that Vader couldn't do: Vader can't bring himself to kill his son or watch him die, Kylo does bring himself to kill his father; and were it not for the fact that Luke wasn't actually there, he would have killed his uncle too, and was close to killing his mother as well.

 

And its also bankrupt because its replaying the same card. When it happens once, you just accept it. But once you go back to that well, the audience must surely start questioning not just the reason behind it, but also the moral grounding of it. I find not only awful in a carebear kind of way, but also completely morally bankrupt, both in its "well, we had to redeem him, he's Han's son!" and in how it seems to mitigate Kylo's evil. Its like if Gladiator ended with Commodus having a change of heart and then he, Maximus and Lucila sang Kumbaya around the fireplace together.

 

25 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

Wasn't that entire line added after the movie had come out already?

 

 

Yes.

[mstrox 6,654]

I think Kylo’s “redemption” is much more believable than Vader’s, only in the sense that we see his conflict visibly in both of the preceding movies, in his emotion during Han’s last scene and his connection with Rey throughout TLJ.  I didn’t care much for TROS, but his mother reaching out to him through the force is a pretty good way to tip the scales (him having already spared her in the previous movie, shortly before the Mary Poppins scene), and having her use her last strength to manifest a vision of Han was a decent workaround for a crappy real-life situation.

Both characters committed atrocities beyond any true redemption, of course (destroying planets full of people, murdering “heroes” and their own underlings, etc), but in the silly film serial Star Wars world, you just have to buy it on its face.

 

The “redemption” in TROS was almost a foregone conclusion (although I wish Abrams et al had followed Rian Johnson’s lead and continued the path of “he looked tantalizingly close to a face turn but now he’ll never get there”).  I kind of liked the idea I saw floating around online after TLJ of Kylo flipping sides and then surviving the finale, resolved to face the significant consequences of his actions whatever those are - a significant Jedi move, but probably not the pat saga ending that they would have been going for.

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I think Star Wars, for a morality play, has two moments of absolute moral bankruptcy. One is Kylo Ren's redemption, the other is Padme's "to be angry is to be human." Both are deplorable.

 

I would add her losing the will to live when you have 2 newborn babies to take care of!!

 

Then again, on second thought...

 

 

23 minutes ago, mstrox said:

having her use her last strength to manifest a vision of Han was a decent workaround for a crappy real-life situation.

 

Am I the only person that didn't realize that was Leia doing that?  I thought Kylo was just hallucinating or something.  I thought she just reached out to him during the lightsaber fight. 

 

[GerateWohl 4,410]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

Any number of reasons. One is that Vader's redemption is a lot less tokenistic: he kills the Emperor at the cost of his own life. Kylo doesn't kill the Emperor: Kylo just gives Rey her saber back. I'm sorry, but a spot of roadside assistance only counts for so much.

 

Another reason is that Vader's redemption is just presented to us as a change of heart. No sooner does he decided on it, does he throw the Emperor down the shaft, and in his next scene he expires. Kylo changes his heart about two-thirds of the way through the movie, so we are expected to spend a considerable amount of screentime activelly rooting for this murderous neurotic.

 

We can also start doing the math and see that, if we compare trilogy to trilogy (which is only fair), Kylo is a much, much more vile individual than is Vader. In fact, Kylo's "journey" begins in earnest in doing the very thing that Vader couldn't do: Vader can't bring himself to kill his son or watch him die, Kylo does bring himself to kill his father; and were it not for the fact that Luke wasn't actually there, he would have killed his uncle too, and was close to killing his mother as well.

 

And its also bankrupt because its replaying the same card. When it happens once, you just accept it. But once you go back to that well, the audience must surely start questioning not just the reason behind it, but also the moral grounding of it. I find not only awful in a carebear kind of way, but also completely morally bankrupt, both in its "well, we had to redeem him, he's Han's son!" and in how it seems to mitigate Kylo's evil. Its like if Gladiator ended with Commodus having a change of heart and then he, Maximus and Lucila sang Kumbaya around the fireplace together.

Sorry. That is in my view a weak explanation. When I look at Vader's record of war crimes and murders (including what he does in the comics) without any kind of doubt or regret I find his redemption and even being rewarded with immortality of becoming a force ghost (other than Kylo) much less acceptable.

[A. A. Ron 1,744]

Ah, but you see Chen doesn’t care what happened in some comic.

[Chen G. 3,981]

I think its only fair to compare trilogy to trilogy.

[Brónach 1,302]

Kylo is a reaaaaally poor Zuko.

[GerateWohl 4,410]

6 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I think its only fair to compare trilogy to trilogy.

But still then for Vader you should count in him slaughtering jedi younglings and other jedi in episode 3.

If not, then, ok, then maybe Vader only killed that rebel guy that he hold at his throat and broke his neck. And maybe the guy survived even that. Then basically He killed noone in the original trilogy.

[Chen G. 3,981]

2 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

But still then for Vader you should count in him slaughtering jedi younglings and other jedi in episode 3.

 

No, because I'm comparing trilogy to trilogy: Episode 3 falls outside that scope. Its only fair to do so both so that we're comparing apples to apples AND because at the tim in which Vaders' redemption was written, the slaying of the younglings was not yet concieved.

 

Its impossible for me, I find, to watch the Vader of Return of the Jedi and say "aha, that's Hayden Christensen's Anakin under that armour!" It rings false.

 

And remember that Kylo kills younglings, too: he murders Luke's other students, effectivelly younglings.

[Romão 2,274]

2 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

But still then for Vader you should count in him slaughtering jedi younglings and other jedi in episode 3.

If not, then, ok, then maybe Vader only killed that rebel guy that he hold at his throat and broke his neck. And maybe the guy survived even that. Then basically He killed noone in the original trilogy.

 Apology accepted, Captain Needa

[Brónach 1,302]

as a beloved satanic leader, i may comment Twin Peaks on this thread and note when there's possible homosexual activity in it

[Jurassic Shark 12,132]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

at the tim in which Vaders' redemption was written, the slaying of the younglings was not yet concieved.

 

Yes, but it was planned from the beginning. 

[Brónach 1,302]

I'm going to be honest, "the dark side as magic possession" doesn't work for me

[Jurassic Shark 12,132]

2 minutes ago, Brónach said:

as a beloved satanic leader, i may comment Twin Peaks on this thread and note when there's possible homosexual activity in it

 

There's so many things I don't know about you.

 

1 minute ago, Brónach said:

I'm going to be honest, "the dark side as magic possession" doesn't work for me

 

Perhaps because you're a grown-up.

[Chen G. 3,981]

2 minutes ago, Brónach said:

I'm going to be honest, "the dark side as magic possession" doesn't work for me

 

Same.

 

After writing the third draft, Lucas read a column in the New Yorker on fairytales by Bruno Bettelheim. Bettelheim, a Freudian, spoke about how the child separates his resentment for his father as a "bad father" and his appreciation of the father as "good father." Lucas' notes quote passages from this column verbatim.

 

Bettelheim was a total fruad, ironically enough.

[Holko 9,545]

56 minutes ago, mstrox said:

destroying planets full of people

That's Tarkin and Hux!

[Gabriel Bezerra 308]

2 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

I think Disney Wars has tried to borderline argue that the Jedi were the bad guys in the prequels. It's this dumb post-modern article like it's trying to be a Youtube clickbait title (dId u kNoW tHe jEdI wErE tHe TRUE vIlLiAnS oF tHe mOvIeS???).

I never saw it like that. If you're refering to Luke's talk with Rey, he's just stating facts, and his idea is that the Force should not be reserved for the Jedi only, because once it becomes an "organization" of sorts, it will fail. The Jedi of the prequels lost their eager to follow the will of the Force, that lead to the creation of the Empire.

[Chen G. 3,981]

2 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

If you're refering to Luke's talk with Rey, he's just stating facts,

 

I don't think so. Johnson's Luke suggests: "The legacy of the Jedi is failure, hubris, hypocracy."

 

I think this is definitely false insofar as that's not what we're asked to take away from watching those movies. We're not supposed to feel that the Jedi are in the wrong. It doesn't play that way, because Lucas' script sucks in this regard, but its clear that's not the intention.

[Gabriel Bezerra 308]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I don't think so. Johnson's Luke suggests: "The legacy of the Jedi is failure, hubris, hypocracy."

 

I think this is definitely false insofar as that's not what we're asked to take away from watching those movies. We're not supposed to feel that the Jedi are in the wrong. It doesn't play that way, because Lucas' script sucks in this regard, but its clear that's not the intention.

Oh I see. Yeah, that is the bias from Luke in that moment (I'm trying to reason it in-universe), focusing completey in what they did wrong, yeah, it can be seen that way, but in the end of the movie Luke no longer feels that way, saying "blah blah blah, I will not be the last jedi" (roll credits). They were hubris, they didn't heard Qui-Gon when he said the Sith returned, they failed and the Empire rose, and they fought a war even being "keepers of the peace, not soldiers", but the real legacy of the Jedi was Luke, but in the movie he was trying to distance himself from "the legend", in the end Luke passes the legacy to Rey kinda sorta

[Edmilson 7,508]

59 minutes ago, Brónach said:

Kylo is a reaaaaally poor Zuko.

[enderdrag64 626]

Something else I just thought of when reading some of Chen's posts, I'm not sure if anyone here knew this but it's actually been discovered that the originally pitched story outline for Star Wars was almost entirely plagiarized from the novel A Fighting Man of Mars

There's a really interesting blog about it here: https://medium.com/@Oozer3993/everything-known-about-the-journal-of-the-whills-outline-d8db1f1410ea

 

George Lucas' outline:

Spoiler

This is the story of Mace Windy, a revered Jedi-bendu of Ophuchi, as related to us by C.J. Thorpe, padawaan learner to the famed Jedi.

 

I am Chuiee Two Thorpe of Kissel. My father is Han Dardell Thorpe, chief pilot of the renown galactic cruiser Tarnack. As a family we were not rich, except in honor, and valuing this above all mundane possessions, I chose the profession of my father, rather than a more profitable career. I was 16 I believe, and pilot of the trawler Balmung, when my ambitions demanded that I enter the exalted Intersystems Academy to train as a potential Jedi-Templer. It is here that I became padawaan learner to the great Mace Windy, highest of all the Jedi-bendu masters, and at that time, Warlord to the Chairman of the Alliance of Independent Systems.

 

Never shall I forget the occasion upon which I first set eyes upon Mace Windy. It was at the great feast of the Pleabs. There were gathered under one roof, the most powerful warriors in the Galaxy, and although I realize my adoration of the Master might easily influence my memory, when he entered the hall, these great and noble Warlords fell silent. It was said he was the most gifted and powerful man in the Independent Systems. Some felt he was even more powerful than the Imperial leader of the Galactic Empire.

The novel he copied from:

Spoiler

This is the story of Hadron of Hastor, Fighting Man of Mars, as narrated by him to Ulysses Paxton:

 

I am Tan Hadron of Hastor, my father is Had Urtur, Odwar of the 1st Umak of the Troops of Hastor. He commands the largest ship of war that Hastor has ever contributed to the navy of Helium, accommodating as it does the entire ten thousand men of the 1st Umak, together with five hundred lesser fighting ships and all the paraphernalia of war. My mother is a princess of Gathol.

 

As a family we are not rich except in honor, and, valuing this above all mundane possessions, I chose the profession of my father rather than a more profitable career. The better to further my ambition I came to the capital of the empire of Helium and took service in the troops of Tardos Mors, Jeddak of Helium, that I might be nearer the great John Carter, Warlord of Mars.

 

Never shall I forget the occasion upon which I first laid eyes upon Sanoma Tora. It was upon the occasion of a great feast at the marble palace of The Warlord. There were gathered under one roof the most beautiful women of Barsoom, where, notwithstanding the gorgeous and radiant beauty of Dejah Thoris, Tara of Helium and Thuvid of Ptarth, the pulchritude of Sanoma Tora was such as to arrest attention.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,132]

Good artists copy; great artists steal.

[Tallguy 3,411]

Quote

For two decades this “Journal of the Whills” was essentially unknown to the public. There was no mention of it in any source, official or otherwise, until the release of Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays in 1997.

 

Well, other than page 2 of the novel Star Wars published in 1976. But who read that?

[Chen G. 3,981]

14 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

the originally pitched story outline for Star Wars was almost entirely plagiarized from the novel A Fighting Man of Mars

 

That is correct. It also has little elements taken from Dune: an urban planet, Jedi "Bendu", an Emperor with a name that's clearly meant to be a paraphrase on Dune's, Ophuchi is straight out of Dune, etc...

 

And the first draft is very strongly based on a John Carter of Mars strip: Han Solo (here, a green alien) is Tars Tarkas, Leia (who here is almost raped by "trappers") is Dejah Thoris. Sith, Padawan (as "Padawar"), Jedi (as "Jed") and Bantha (as "Banth") are all terms from Barsoom. And since this first draft was used as the basis for The Phantom Menace, that film is again quite close to Burroughs, with Jar Jar and Gungans being clearly based on the Tharks.

 

But, really, a much more important source for Star Wars is EE Smith's Galactic Patrol. Its actually hillarious how indebted Star Wars is to that book: the Death Star ("Grand Base"), the Jedi ("Lensmen"), the Force ("Cosmic All"), the stolen plans ("Data spools") and names like Curoscant, Endor ("Eddore") and the title "The Empire Strikes Back" (one of Smith's chapters is "The Quarry Strikes Back"), and so on.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

6 hours ago, Brónach said:

Kylo is a reaaaaally poor Zuko.

 

That's what happens when your dad is Mark Hamill instead of Harrison Ford.

[DarthDementous 1,060]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

But, really, a much more important source for Star Wars is EE Smith's Galactic Patrol. Its actually hillarious how indebted Star Wars is to that book: the Death Star ("Grand Base"), the Jedi ("Lensmen"), the Force ("Cosmic All"), the stolen plans ("Data spools") and names like Curoscant, Endor ("Eddore") and the title "The Empire Strikes Back" (one of Smith's chapters is "The Quarry Strikes Back"), and so on.

I thought the name Coruscant came from the West End tabletop RPGs? It’s not mentioned in ROTJ and I don’t know if it’s in the novelisation either

 

Worth noting that it’s an actual word that means ‘shining’ or ‘glittering’

[Tallguy 3,411]

9 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

I thought the name Coruscant came from the West End tabletop RPGs? It’s not mentioned in ROTJ and I don’t know if it’s in the novelisation either

 

Worth noting that it’s an actual word that means ‘shining’ or ‘glittering’

 

It came from Heir to the Empire. The Zahn books were out about four years after the West End game so they took a fair number of terms and ships from it. (YT-1300 I believe is a West End original.) West End then turned around and made source books from the Zahn material. (Was it really 1991?! I'd swear it was earlier than that. And I would apparently be wrong.)

[DarthDementous 1,060]

15 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

It came from Heir to the Empire. The Zahn books were out about four years after the West End game so they took a fair number of terms and ships from it. (YT-1300 I believe is a West End original.) West End then turned around and made source books from the Zahn material. (Was it really 1991?! I'd swear it was earlier than that. And I would apparently be wrong.)

Ah yes that’s right, so that makes the aforementioned influence even more unlikely because of that timing

[Manakin Skywalker 4,900]

On 02/05/2023 at 1:44 PM, Mattris said:

I consider a same-gender couple (and kiss on the lips) to be more-mature content than a heterosexual couple/kiss

 

On 02/05/2023 at 1:44 PM, Mattris said:

I never revealed my position on homosexuality.

 

You literally just did.

 

On 02/05/2023 at 1:44 PM, Mattris said:

I am not a bigot because I am not being unreasonable.

 

Yes you are, and yes you are.

 

18 hours ago, Mattris said:

No, you're missing my point.

 

Alright, let me try to clarify. Does not going to see a film because of objectional content make you a bigot? No. Does thinking that homosexuality in and of itself is "objectional content" or "pushing an agenda" make you a bigot? Yes. Make sense?

[Mattris 416]

On 03/05/2023 at 9:31 AM, SilverTrumpet said:

Kylo Ren's thing is from Disney, so it's really anti Star Wars all together.

 

It's this line of thinking that will keep you confused and disenchanted.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 9:31 AM, SilverTrumpet said:

I think Disney Wars has tried to borderline argue that the Jedi were the bad guys in the prequels. It's this dumb post-modern article like it's trying to be a Youtube clickbait title (dId u kNoW tHe jEdI wErE tHe TRUE vIlLiAnS oF tHe mOvIeS???). There was nothing bad guys about the Jedi. They just made the wrong choices.

 

I disagree that the Jedi, as of late, are being made out to be the villains or bad guys of the story. They certainly "made the wrong choices" and paid the consequences, necessarily so in a story like this. The Jedi's good intentions  did not yield them victory or wisdom. Their defeat at the hands of a truly evil enemy should not be a surprise to anyone. Nor should it be a surprise that Luke - taught by these very failed Jedi - also failed... and that Rey, taught by Luke, will also fail.  (This concept really couldn't be more simple.)

 

On 03/05/2023 at 9:31 AM, SilverTrumpet said:

One can make wrong or bad choices and not be complete bad.

 

Exactly. It's one of the main themes of the Saga.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 9:31 AM, Datameister said:

Yeah, it does seem pretty out of character for her to reassure him that slaughtering a whole village is "nobody's perfect" territory.

 

Padme even says to Anakin in the next film, "So love has blinded you?"

 

On 03/05/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chen G. said:

Any number of reasons. One is that Vader's redemption is a lot less tokenistic: he kills the Emperor at the cost of his own life. Kylo doesn't kill the Emperor: Kylo just gives Rey her saber back. I'm sorry, but a spot of roadside assistance only counts for so much.

 

You seem to have forgotten that Ben Solo sacrificed his life so Rey would live.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chen G. said:

Another reason is that Vader's redemption is just presented to us as a change of heart. No sooner does he decided on it, does he throw the Emperor down the shaft, and in his next scene he expires.

 

His change of heart began earlier in the film. At the end of the his scene with Luke on the forest moon of Endor, Vader is shown staring into the darkness, reflecting on his conversation with Luke.

 

And this was after he made an offer to Luke to "destroy the Emperor" in TESB.  Set-up/pay-offs are everywhere in Star Wars. You just have to look and think carefully.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chen G. said:

Kylo changes his heart about two-thirds of the way through the movie, so we are expected to spend a considerable amount of screentime activelly rooting for this murderous neurotic.

 

The film showed us that Ben Solo was tricked into being bad, assuming that he was being spoken to by his grandfather. He decided to drop the whole villainy thing and became his true self. He was really a great guy all along!

 

On 03/05/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chen G. said:

We can also start doing the math and see that, if we compare trilogy to trilogy (which is only fair), Kylo is a much, much more vile individual than is Vader. In fact, Kylo's "journey" begins in earnest in doing the very thing that Vader couldn't do: Vader can't bring himself to kill his son or watch him die, Kylo does bring himself to kill his father; and were it not for the fact that Luke wasn't actually there, he would have killed his uncle too, and was close to killing his mother as well.

 

A case could easily be made that Darth Vader is more evil than Kylo Ren. Of the top of my head... Vader oversaw the torture of a young women, killed old man Kenobi who had given up the duel, repeatedly killed his own men, threatened to corrupt his own daughter just to goad his son into fighting him.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chen G. said:

And its also bankrupt because its replaying the same card. When it happens once, you just accept it. But once you go back to that well, the audience must surely start questioning not just the reason behind it, but also the moral grounding of it. I find not only awful in a carebear kind of way, but also completely morally bankrupt, both in its "well, we had to redeem him, he's Han's son!" and in how it seems to mitigate Kylo's evil.

 

Exactly. The audience should 'start questioning the reasoning and the moral grounding' of such major things in Star Wars. I suggest you stop assuming that the story of the Saga is morally vapid... and that these so-called story/character arc resolutions are definitive. (I can assure you, they are not.)

 

On 03/05/2023 at 11:22 AM, mstrox said:

I think Kylo’s “redemption” is much more believable than Vader’s, only in the sense that we see his conflict visibly in both of the preceding movies, in his emotion during Han’s last scene and his connection with Rey throughout TLJ.  I didn’t care much for TROS, but his mother reaching out to him through the force is a pretty good way to tip the scales (him having already spared her in the previous movie, shortly before the Mary Poppins scene), and having her use her last strength to manifest a vision of Han was a decent workaround for a crappy real-life situation.

 

Why do you think Leia manifested the vision of Han? Hadn't she already died?

 

On 03/05/2023 at 11:22 AM, mstrox said:

The “redemption” in TROS was almost a foregone conclusion...

 

What is redemption in Star Wars?

 

On 03/05/2023 at 11:34 AM, Demodex said:

I would add her losing the will to live when you have 2 newborn babies to take care of!!

 

That's just what the medical droid supposed.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 12:05 PM, Chen G. said:

No, because I'm compaing trilogy to trilogy: Episode 3 falls outside that scope. Its only fair to do so both so that we're comparing apples to apples AND because at the tim in which Vaders' redemption was written, the slaying of the younglings was not yet concieved.

 

It doesn't matter if that's true or not. We will never know. As the audience, we can only assess what we are presented as canon. Perhaps you should focus on the films, screenplays, and novelizations instead of relying on the so-called 'drafts' for insight.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 12:05 PM, Chen G. said:

And remember that Kylo kills younglings, too: he murders Luke's other students, effectivelly younglings.

 

Did he, now? It wasn't shown in the films. Luke just assumed he "slaughtered" them. A lot assuming going around in Star Wars... and amongst its audience.

 

On 03/05/2023 at 12:24 PM, Chen G. said:

I don't think so. Johnson's Luke suggests: "The legacy of the Jedi is failure, hubris, hypocracy."

 

I think this is definitely false insofar as that's not what we're asked to take away from watching those movies. We're not supposed to feel that the Jedi are in the wrong. It doesn't play that way, because Lucas' script sucks in this regard, but its clear that's not the intention.

 

More assumptions. "It doesn't play that way" because the story is told from the point of view of the Jedi or good guys.  This storytelling choice contributes to the challenge of understanding the grander narrative. It's up to the audience to put it all together, something so many have utterly failed to do.

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

What is redemption in Star Wars?

 

The same thing it is anywhere else. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

It's up to the audience to put it all together, something so many have failed to do.

 

There really isn't anything to put all together. It is so ridiculous to imply we don't understand a simple story. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Did he, now? It wasn't shown in the films. Luke just assumed he "slaughtered" them

 

You don't think he did?  Luke probably found bodies laying around. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

That's just what the medical droid supposed

 

And what Lucas told his audience. 

Oops. I forgot we're all too stupid to understand. 

 

 

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

The same thing it is anywhere else.

 

I don't think redemption means the same thing anywhere and everywhere. Regardless, you should be able to define the term if you're going to make a blanket statement like that.

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

There really isn't anything to put all together. It is so ridiculous to imply we don't understand a simple story.

 

I'm not 'implying' you don't understand this simple story. I'm outright stating it.

 

The fact is, there are many elements of Star Wars that have not been given a definitive explanation or resolution.

 

Think about it. What elements of Star Wars have been given a definitive explanation or resolution? What are its themes, takeaways, and lessons? Now nine episodes in, what exactly was/is the story?

 

The ambiguity and mystery of Star Wars make the story intriguing... and keep the fans discussing, complaining, and coming back for more. They should  keep coming back... because it's not even close to being over.

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

You don't think he did?  Luke probably found bodies laying around.

 

I know that Ben Solo didn't kill the students. The Rise of Kylo Ren  shows us.

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

And what Lucas told his audience.

 

No, it's only what the medical droid supposed to Obi-Wan and Bail Organa.

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

Oops. I forgot we're all to stupid to understand. 

Not everything said by the Star Wars characters can be true because different characters say conflicting things. Sometimes, a single character will make contradictory statements within the same film.

 

What characters say, do, and think depends on their intent, knowledge, and point of view. This is Drama 101... and critical to understanding Star Wars.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,900]

2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

You literally just did.

 

 

Yes you are, and yes you are.

 

 

Alright, let me try to clarify. Does not going to see a film because of objectional content make you a bigot? No. Does thinking that homosexuality in and of itself is "objectional content" or "pushing an agenda" make you a bigot? Yes. Make sense?

 

@Mattris No multi-paragraph long rebuttal? 🤔

[Mattris 416]

No, I already said I'm dropping the topic and going back to blathering about Star Wars.

[Demodex 557]

24 minutes ago, Mattris said:

No, it's only what the medical droid supposed to Obi-Wan and Bail Organa.

 

And it was written by George Lucas so that is what he is telling his audience. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

Does anyone else hear a fly.... buzzing around.....

[Mattris 416]

6 hours ago, Demodex said:

And it was written by George Lucas so that is what he is telling his audience. 

 

No. It's what George Lucas had the medical droid say to Obi-Wan and Bail Organa:

 

"Medically, she's completely healthy. For reasons we can’t explain, we are losing her... We don’t know why. She has lost the will to live."

 

The medical droid made this statement no doubt aware that Padme's vitals were heading in the wrong direction. It should be noted that two massive reasons were presented in this scene that support a conclusion that Padme would have had a desire to live:

 

- She had just given birth to healthy twins.

- Speaking of Anakin, Padme's final words were, "There's still good in him. I know there is..."

 

It simply doesn't make sense that someone as strong-willed and hopeful as Padme would suddenly 'lose the will to live' when she had so much to live for. Of course, there is another explanation for her inexplicable death, one that fits with the overall narrative.

 

 

On a similar note:  We know that Obi-Wan infamously told Luke that Darth Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. We then found out later on that this was not exactly true... well, perhaps from a certain point of view.

 

Star Wars is a allegorical, mythological-based fairytale. Instead of taking so many things in the story at face value, perhaps you should be paying attention to its subtleties and truly thinking. "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them."

 

6 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Does anyone else hear a fly.... buzzing around.....

 

Don't worry. I'll take care of it. I'm always happy to help the impaired. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,731]

23 hours ago, mstrox said:

The moral of The Rise of Skywalker is that you never pay JJ Abrams to finish things, only to start them.

That’s what she said!

[mstrox 6,654]

If I were suddenly looking at a future as a single mother with twins, I might lose the will to live too

[Demodex 557]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

Of course, there is another explanation for her inexplicable death, one that fits with the overall narrative.

 

I know what you're referring to and it is just as stupid. 

[ThePenitentMan1 750]

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

 

I know what you're referring to and it is just as stupid. 

 

Are you talking about the explanation where Palpatine drained Padme's life force to restore Vader to life?  In what way is it stupid?

[mstrox 6,654]

Lol is that really a thing?

[A. A. Ron 1,744]

It sure is.

[Chen G. 3,981]

I don’t believe it’s implicit in any of the drafts.

[crumbs 14,350]

Wow, what amazing music! A fitting tribute to the orchestral brilliance we know and love from Star Wars!

 

 

 

[Edmilson 7,508]

9 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Wow, what amazing music! A fitting tribute to the orchestral brilliance we all know and love about Star Wars!

 

 

 

Wat? In a Star Wars-themed video, instead of using JW's classic themes, they used generic trailer music?