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Star Wars Disenchantment


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16 minutes ago, elvisjones said:

Could someone please post a picture of the sheet music of The Emperor's Theme with the Kylo notes in it, perhaps circled?  I am genuinely curious about this as I can't seem to find it in any of the sheet music I've looked at.  Thank you :)

 

Sure. Have a look at Page 40 of the document here: https://franklehman.com/starwars/

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

Sure. Have a look at Page 40 of the document here: https://franklehman.com/starwars/

 

At the risk of being pedantic, (1) it's only 4 notes, not 5, as the first note of the Kylo theme in that example is parenthetical, (2) it's in a different tonal context (a modulation from Dm to Cm rather than in Cminor to begin with), and (3) it's a different rhythm, but I do see that this example illustrates that a symmetry can be found between Kylo Ren's theme and that portion of the Emperor's theme.  

 

I'm not convinced that this is proof that Palpatine was planned as far back as TFA, but I do not deny the similarity of those 4 notes.  Personally, and I may be ignorant, I think this is just an example of JW crafting a theme born from the same tonal environment as the Imperial theme in Ep 4, Darth Vader's Theme, The Emperor's Theme, The Trade Federation Theme, and General Grievous's theme, to name a few.  

 

I also do not deny what has been said to the press about CT, JJ, KK, LFL and Palpatine, but unless I was lied to by someone WHO WORKED ON EP 9 DIRECTLY (and I do not deny that is possible), the public version of the story differs from what actually happened behind the scenes (which is not that far fetched to believe).  Again, I offer this information as something to consider, I have no reason to lie, no agenda to discredit anyone who either worked on SW or here on the board, just to share something I was told.  Please feel free not to believe me.

 

 

 

 

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Sounds reasonable to me.

 

Snoke was a programmed clone ("... use the Force to influence the midiclorians to create life.").

The original Empire was a front for Darth Sidious' real plans: To become the most powerful Sith Master of all time and live forever.

As a Contingency in case of his death, he created a clone of his body for his spirit to pass into. Unfortunate for him, it could not contain the immensity of his dark side power... and aged quickly, hindering his physical abilities.

"... trying to suck people's lives out." That's essentially the dark side in a nut shell.

 

8 hours ago, elvisjones said:

At the risk of being pedantic, (1) it's only 4 notes, not 5, as the first note of the Kylo theme in that example is parenthetical, (2) it's in a different tonal context (a modulation from Dm to Cm rather than in Cminor to begin with), and (3) it's a different rhythm, but I do see that this example illustrates that a symmetry can be found between Kylo Ren's theme and that portion of the Emperor's theme.  

 

I'm not convinced that this is proof that Palpatine was planned as far back as TFA, but I do not deny the similarity of those 4 notes.  Personally, and I may be ignorant, I think this is just an example of JW crafting a theme born from the same tonal environment as the Imperial theme in Ep 4, Darth Vader's Theme, The Emperor's Theme, The Trade Federation Theme, and General Grievous's theme, to name a few.  

 

I also do not deny what has been said to the press about CT, JJ, KK, LFL and Palpatine, but unless I was lied to by someone WHO WORKED ON EP 9 DIRECTLY (and I do not deny that is possible), the public version of the story differs from what actually happened behind the scenes (which is not that far fetched to believe).  Again, I offer this information as something to consider, I have no reason to lie, no agenda to discredit anyone who either worked on SW or here on the board, just to share something I was told.  Please feel free not to believe me.

 

The parenthetical first note counts, often occurring before the next four as an establishing base note. The fact that the themes exist in a different tonal context or have a different rhythm is inconsequential. These themes are not just "born from the same tonal environment" or possess the same chordal structure. They are the same notes.

 

Add the similarities of Rey's Theme to The Emperor's Theme (rising and falling minor thirds at the beginning, hints of Darth Vader Theme at the end, etc.) and you are faced with the reality: It was all planned, hidden in plain sight all along... or sound, in this case. (Just like a certain voice-only scene at the end of TROS. Hint, hint.)

 

Emperor Palpatine was revealed to have been manipulating Ben Solo his entire life (through Darth Vader helmet, Snoke, the Force, etc.). Denying this musical clue as 'proof of the plan' is akin to claiming that five notes from the sweeping 'Goodbye' theme from Close Encounters of the Third Kind occurring within a film score trilogy theme for alien visitors was composed 'only in the same vein'... even when in the third film, it's revealed that the aliens were the same aliens from the 1977 film.

 

No offense meant at all, elvisjones. It could very well be that those who spoke to you are unaware of the truth surrounding the Sequel Trilogy. But I have based my assessments and conclusions primarily on facts, which indicate a "deliberate creative decision" - not a haphazard approach or incompetence.

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You’re acting as though John Williams is the writer of the films: he isn’t. He’s a man who comes in to see a cut of the film and write music, and that’s all he does. He can’t be bothered to ask where the story is going.

 

He even put some Imperial March under the Jedi Steps, as if to ask, going into VIII: “is Luke going to go evvvvvvil?” This should give you a sense of the extent to which he knows what’s going to happen, which is nil. He just doesn’t care.

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Also, JW has all of these Star Wars themes connected, same intervals, played backwards, played faster or slower...

 

It ties the musical universe of Star Wars together. The music is its oxygen, you might say. ; )

 

That doesn’t mean he was privy to any information that even neither of KK, JJ or Rian seems to have known about at the outset.

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3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You’re acting as though John Williams is the writer of the films: he isn’t. He’s a man who comes in to see a cut of the film and write music, and that’s all he does. He can’t be bothered to ask where the story is going.

 

He even put some Imperial March under the Jedi Steps, as if to ask, going into VIII: “is Luke going to go evvvvvvil?” This should give you a sense of the extent to which he knows what’s going to happen, which is nil. He just doesn’t care.

 

No, I'm not "acting as though John Williams is the writer of the films." It's obvious that JJ knew where the story was headed - as he stated and as the canon material indicates: that the main characters would have a close association with Emperor Palpatine himself - and told John Williams, who managed to cleverly incorporate The Emperor's Theme into their themes. It's that simple.

 

Suggesting that John Williams "doesn't care" about the trajectory of the main characters and story line of a Saga he's been closely tied to for decades is a truly foolish thing to say on the John Williams Forums.

 

More like, "Is Rey going to go evvvvvvil?” It's you that has no idea "what's going to happen", @Chen G.. You've proven that time and time again. I honestly don't know why you continue to prod me on the topic of Star Wars and its music.

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3 hours ago, rough cut said:

Also, JW has all of these Star Wars themes connected, same intervals, played backwards, played faster or slower...

 

It ties the musical universe of Star Wars together. The music is its oxygen, you might say. ; )

 

That doesn’t mean he was privy to any information that even neither of KK, JJ or Rian seems to have known about at the outset.

 

It doesn't sound like you know much about music composition. Five identical notes in a row, with the new character having been manipulated by the old one... and you say 'nothing to see here'? (Once again, on the John Williams Forums.)

 

Good grief, people!

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3 hours ago, Mattris said:

Suggesting that John Williams "doesn't care" about the trajectory of the main characters and story line of a Saga he's been closely tied to for decades is a truly foolish thing to say on the John Williams Forums.

 

More like, "Is Rey going to go evvvvvvil?” It's you that has no idea "what's going to happen", @Chen G..

 

No, its not foolish. Williams involvement with these films begins and ends with the spotting sessions and the actual scoring. He doesn't ask prodding questions, read the scripts or anything of the kind.

 

In the prequel trilogy, when Lucas remarked that Duel of the Fates could be useful "for the third film", Williams said "I don't quite know what he means by that" and a similar thing happened with Across the Stars, where Williams didn't bother asking Lucas where this romance was going.

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I mean, the man regularly confuses the names of his own themes. He frequently mixes up "Leia's Theme" and "Luke and Leia" when talking about them. And you only have to look at what he names his sketches to see how much attention he pays to the films ("We Lose Girl Ace", "Hoda's Resolve" referring to Paige and Holdo, respectively) 

 

I wouldn't put any stock in the idea of him having some cryptic foreknowledge that he's trying to tell us.

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@Chen G. That sounds less like a hint at the Imperial March rather a foreboding segment of trepidation, not a suggestion of some dark side connection in The Jedi Steps. Then again, The Spark is another major Luke moment in the ST that has allusions to Vader's theme...

 

 

@Mattris the only way you're going to know if that connection you're banging on about is true, is if you ask Williams. 

 

If the connection is true, then it's more likely than not Williams alluding to the dark side/Palpatine theme which itself doesn't necessarily need to be tied to the character i.e. not mutually exclusive. 

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8 hours ago, Demodex said:

Yes. Everyone here is wrong and you're the one person that's correct.

 

Yep. Regarding Palpatine returning and Rey being directly related to him, "everyone here" was silent on my prediction... or thought I was dead wrong. But I was right.

 

8 hours ago, Demodex said:

Palpatine wasn't part of the plan or he'd be in Trevorrow's script.  End of argument. 

 

Prove the date that Trevorrow's script was completed... or that he even wrote it.

 

So Episode V and VI (Emperor Palpatine) co-writer Lawrence Kasdan was hired to help JJ start the story of the Sequel Trilogy... but they didn't have the Emperor in mind? The Star Wars canon material's dozens of mentions of Palpatine - including numerous scenes of dialog with the Emperor detailing his outlook on the galaxy and his Contingency plan - were included for no reason at all? Rey was always a nobody and had a absurdly strong affinity for the Force, with dark side inclinations... but with no explanation planned? Ben Solo's redemption wasn't in the cards? There was never an explanation for Snoke, even though The Emperor's Theme played note-for-note as he tortured Rey for information? The main story set-ups from TFA and TLJ are paid-off in TROS - and tie into the 2015-2017 canon material and all of the films in the Saga - but it just came down to creative 'mopping up the mess' writing at the relative last minute? I'd like to think you're joking. But I know you're not.

 

On top of all that, John Williams wrote Rey's Theme and Kylo's motif, incorporating The Emperor's Theme, proving that Palpatine's return was planned.

 

"End of argument."

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I meant you were wrong about Palpatine coming back being planned in advance of making the ST. I have a hard time believing it. 

 

If it was planned they sure did a bad job of executing it. TROS sucked. 

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12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Disney, Lucasfilm, JJ Baby, and Johnny have you all wrapped around their fingers.

 

And those fingers are tightly wrapped by your sphincter. 

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To those of you who vehemently abhor the sequel trilogy and who passionately love the bloody thing, do you genuinely feel that the movies are good or bad, or is your response to the films more... political?

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I believe that without GL's vision, it was no longer really SW.

 

Mandalorian feels closer and aside from some jarring Jedian additions, it was refreshingly detached from the Disney universe. Plus, it's not a cartoon, so I can actually watch it.

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12 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

To those of you who vehemently abhor the sequel trilogy and who passionately love the bloody thing, do you genuinely feel that the movies are good or bad, or is your response to the films more... political?

 

Political how?

 

I like TFA because it's a fun movie. I love TLJ because it's a great movie. I dislike TROS because bringing back Palpatine was fucking stupid. 

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12 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

do you genuinely feel that the movies are good or bad, or is your response to the films more... political

 

You mean, on the level of the films' socio-political commentary? The Force Awakens doesn't treat issues of diversity too differently the original Star Wars, so I don't mind. The Last Jedi tries to draw a parallel between the "The Force belongs to everybody" nonesense and egalitarianism, which just doesn't work because Force powers have been established as exclusive to a certain subset of people. Its also trying to say something about class and animal cruelty, which comes off as one of the biggest non sequitors of the whole series.

 

The Rise of Skywalker is just nearly incoherent.

 

16 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Anyone else prefer Natalie?

 

I do. Saw a review of Attack of the Clones today on Letterboxd that went along the lines of "well, at least Natalie Portman's good to look at!" which made think. Easily the best-looking leading lady in the Star Wars canon.

 

12 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I believe that without GL's vision, it was no longer really SW.

 

I don't mind the absence of George Lucas, I mind that we have three films set after what's supposed to be the final film in the series.

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19 minutes ago, Demodex said:

 

Political how?

 

I like TFA because it's a fun movie. I love TLJ because it's a great movie. I dislike TROS because bringing back Palpatine was fucking stupid. 

 

11 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

You mean, on the level of the films' political messages? The Force Awakens doesn't treat issues of diversity too differently the original Star Wars, so I don't mind. The Last Jedi tries to draw a parallel between the "The Force belongs to everybody" nonesense and egalitarianism, which just doesn't work because Force powers have been established as exclusive to a certain subset of people. Its also trying to say something about class and animal cruelty, which comes off as one of the biggest non sequitors of all time.

 

The Rise of Skywalker is just nearly incoherent.

 

I suppose I mean more TLJ than the sequels as a whole. The fierce division it provokes is incredible, mainly because it seems to reinforce its viewers' worldview, where its passionate defenders find a certain level of confirmation bias from its political messages, and its critics are horrified by them. And all the while, each side doubles down on its polarised response to the film, I suspect out of intense spite towards the other side, who also double as their political/philosophical opponents.

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Yeah, I find that maddening. I might have been more vocal in my praise of the film, had it not been for some people (including a couple whom I know and whose opinions I largely respect enormously) losing their minds over its supposed greatness. I find that sort of behavior - with regards to this particular film - just as hyperbolic as that of those who think its "the worst thing ever."

 

Like I said, its trying to say that "The Force belongs to everyone" as a kind of shorthand for a cry to egalitarianism, which would have been totally fine had it not been well-established that Force-powers don't occur in everyone.

 

Nevertheless, its a good film by way of story and storytelling (its well shot, performed, etc...) but I doubt its actually better than The Force Awakens. In spite of having the advantage of hitting the ground running, The Last Jedi is the slower of the two films, which would have been fine had I got more out of it than I did.

 

I think that, had the movie landed on the conclusion that the Jedi should indeed end, it would have been much more interesting, but as it is it ends with a cop-out. Surely, if it did end with the Jedi gone, The Rise of Skywalker would retconned it in a heartbeat, but still!

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't mind the absence of George Lucas

 

After the prequels I was thankful for the absence of George Lucas. 

 

Unfortunately we got too many JJ Abrams films. 

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8 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

 

I suppose I mean more TLJ than the sequels as a whole. The fierce division it provokes is incredible, mainly because it seems to reinforce its viewers' worldview, where its passionate defenders find a certain level of confirmation bias from its political messages, and its critics are horrified by them. And all the while, each side doubles down on its polarised response to the film, I suspect out of intense spite towards the other side, who also double as their political/philosophical opponents.

 

You seem, to make an observation, to have a propensity towards taking certain instances and projecting them as 100% scenarios, and try to paint them as such as if it's matter of fact. I think that can be unhealthy.

 

Really, what truly political statements does Last Jedi make? 

 

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23 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

To those of you who vehemently abhor the sequel trilogy and who passionately love the bloody thing, do you genuinely feel that the movies are good or bad, or is your response to the films more... political?

 

Nothing about the films is political. It's the underlying social agendas and suggestive narratives that make the films so aggravating, besides them being just superfluous and nonsensical pieces of cinema. 

Once you know it's there, you can't unsee or unknow it, and it sticks out like a sore thumb because it often defies logic and compromises satisfying storytelling. 

The reason why people have a personal aversion to it is that people don't like the feeling of being lectured, and specifically lectured about things they don't need being lectured about. 

If someone starts lecturing you without you asking for it, of course the implication is that you need it because you're stupid and do something wrong. If a movie tells you "girls can do stuff too you know!" of course the implication is you're a caveman. 

And in the case of this fuckery, the movie isn't even implying, key people in this production outright said fans were sexist, misogynist, racist fucks, and better learn from it. 

There's nothing dubious or questionable about it. People producing these films hated their audience. So it's only fair to hate them back. 

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2 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

 

You seem, to make an observation, to have a propensity towards taking certain instances and projecting them as 100% scenarios, and try to paint them as such as if it's matter of fact.

 

Do not!

 

 

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I'm not saying explicitly that TLJ is loaded with subliminal political messages. I wouldn't know unless someone pointed them out to me. I'm more observing that ideologue SW fans, who loved it or hated it, responded to it with such intense passionate fervour, and their response seems to be amplified by their strong dislike to towards those who disagree with their view of the film, who also happen to double as their ideological opponents.

 

So basically, TLJ became a culture war battlefield where right wingers were repelled by the film's insistence on integrating real-life hot-button social issues that they'd rather avoid in a space fantasy movie. And left wingers celebrated these ideas in the movie as some kind of one-up on their real-life ideological opponents, and so the chain reaction went on.

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15 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

I'm not saying explicitly that TLJ is loaded with subliminal political messages. I wouldn't know unless someone pointed them out to me. I'm more observing that ideologue SW fans, who loved it or hated it, responded to it with such intense passionate fervour, and their response seems to be amplified by their strong dislike to towards those who disagree with their view of the film, who also happen to double as their ideological opponents.

 

So basically, TLJ became a culture war battlefield where right wingers were repelled by the film's insistence on integrating real-life hot-button social issues that they'd rather avoid in a space fantasy movie. And left wingers celebrated these ideas in the movie as some kind of one-up on their real-life ideological opponents, and so the chain reaction went on.

 

That does make your original loaded claim more nuanced. I would definitely say it seems that a lot of media now appears to be consumed as an extension of a person's belief system and identity, as in there's an increased push to have media directly reflect one's views, lest they be considered at best, "problematic faves". 

 

As such, whether one likes something or not can be seen as an indication of that person as a whole.

 

 

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Confirmation bias, in other words.

 

"If you liked TLJ, you must be some misandrist feminazi with hairy armpits!"

 

"If you hated TLJ, you must be some toxic macho degenerate who beats up women, bashes gays and shoots up schools!"

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6 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Really, what truly political statements does Last Jedi make? 

 

"The Force is for everyone" as a shorthand to a cry for egalitarianism

Condemnation of animal cruelty

The immorality of arms trade (which, in the situation presented in the film, is a complete straw-man)

Something about class

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smdh when people can’t avoid clicking on youtubers who look like they have horrible breath, and can’t turn off the 24-hour news ticker running in their heads for long enough to just watch a movie with freaking space lasers 

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15 minutes ago, Holko said:

Again it was much more JJ that pushed the "Force is for everyone" thing in 9 when Finn is kinda Force sensitive, maybe, not really, possibly, and the Force magically stopped Jannah's squad from killing innocent people, it couldn't have been that they were decent fucking people or something.


Pointing to The Rise of Skywalker is a low blow: next to that film, Revenge of the Sith looks like a glowing masterpiece for the ages.

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34 minutes ago, Holko said:

What's this egalitarianism and Force is for everyone thing? Watch bloody Ratatouille to understand the complex messages filled with radical social agendas.

 

  Hide contents

In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere.

 

 

 

My God, thank you! But having said that I know a fair few people who misread Ratatouille and also thought that "anyone can cook" meant that anyone can master it. Yeesh.

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6 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

Confirmation bias, in other words.

 

"If you liked TLJ, you must be some misandrist feminazi with hairy armpits!"

 

"If you hated TLJ, you must be some toxic macho degenerate who beats up women, bashes gays and shoots up schools!"

 

 

But that's the thing, we can't boil it down that simply. My sister, who I discovered recently actually really likes Star Wars, fits the "SJW" template almost to a tee. And wouldn't you know, she and her wife watched it with other friends of a similar ideology, and they all didn't like the movie.

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3 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

 

But that's the thing, we can't boil it down that simply. My sister, who I discovered recently actually really likes Star Wars, fits the "SJW" template almost to a tee. And wouldn't you know, she and her wife watched it with other friends of a similar ideology, and they all didn't like the movie.

 

I'm going by the trends I've seen, not individual anecdotes.

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