The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[Edmilson 7,466]

1 hour ago, KK said:

Indeed. Credit goes where credit is due. Williams clearly realized he couldn't keep up with the film's breakneck pace and identity disorder and decided to tie it together with one rousing theme, giving it at least some sort of stamp. Something that TLJ lacked musically.

 

 

Poor Williams, his score is by default better than anything else in this woeful film. Even still, it was utterly hacked and butchered in the horrid final cut.

 

12 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

This. It was the toxic fan outrage over Rian Johnson having the audacity to liberate the series from its own conventions that resulted in TROS being the clusterfuck it is. The fans have no one to blame but themselves.

 

JJ should have doubled down on what Rian was trying to accomplish, rather than appease a toxic minority of fans who will never be happy with the non-Lucas films, period. Instead, he crafted a mess that pleases absolutely nobody. Those who liked TLJ despise the way he walked back everything Rian was trying to say, everyone else sees the film as an unsatisfying mess that introduces way too much, way too late in the game.

 

One specific complaint I'll never understand is Snoke being killed off in TLJ. Rian was clearly trying to prevent Episode IX becoming a rehash of ROTJ, with a Rey/Ben/Snoke confrontation that lazily copied the Luke/Vader/Emperor climax. It was a far more interesting direction to usurp the "big bad" (a blatant clone of the Emperor, now literally a clone -- an apt metaphor for JJ's lazy storytelling) and promote your conflicted baddie to the role before entering the final film. Of all the interesting things they could have done in TROS, JJ chose the most obvious and most lazy of the lot.

 

You said it best than I did. In many ways, fans whining, bitching and moaning on social media and YouTube videos are responsible for some utterly shitty Hollywood movies. 

 

The exact same thing happened with DC a few years ago. People complained that Batman v Superman was too dark and violent, so they brought the director of The Avengers (a movie they wanted to emulate, specially on the box office) to "fix" things and make Justice League a ~funnier~, more kid friendly movie. But the results were so terrible that it pleased neither people who liked the previous Zack Snyder movies, neither Marvel movies fans, and WB was utterly humiliated - they wanted an Avengers-sized box office, but Justice League earned less worldwide than fucking Doctor Strange.
 

The lesson here is, don't listen to whiny entitled fanboys on the internet, because you won't appeal to them, and neither to a broader audience.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Haven't watched The Mandalorian finale just yet, but otherwise this is a very accurate and very sad summary:

https://collider.com/the-future-of-star-wars-is-bleak/

 

@Arpy and @crumbs are exactly right; the toxicity in the Star Wars fandom is the true culprit here.

The only way in which Disney or any filmmaker can be blamed is because they actually let that influence them.

 

Honestly, with Disney having as much power as they do, they really didn't have to.

They could instead have opted for true independence and make the films they themselves wanted.

There would've been upset fans either way, but in the end they would've made something far more worthwhile.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I don’t think blaming fans is conducive to anything. The Rise of Skywalker is just a bad movie. People occasionally make those: it happens.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Disney should be blamed for listening to the fans.

[Ollie 1,059]

Disney and Lucasfilm should be blamed for not having this trilogy mapped out with a clear objective.

 

 

 

 

[Holko 9,526]

Disney and Lucasfilm should be blamed for not pushing 9 back to give Abrams and whoever enough time to figure shit out, and for not having enough storygroup control over them.

[Pellaeon 593]

7 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I call bull on that!

 

Aargh, you TLJ fans who jump all over any slight or disrespect shown towards TLJ, acting shocked and indignant, trying to drag out the debate, let it go. There’s nothing new being said. That movie couldn’t be so “divisive” if everyone would just accept it had pros and cons.

[Arpy 4,145]

Disney aren't listening to the fans. They listen to the focus groups, the meetings, the sales and marketing, the profits dictated by the consumers.

 

I've been thinking lately that the major problem with the narrative journey of the sequels is the very idea of a trilogy. Why didn't Disney just say let's make four or five, or six more films - they have the money to stretch their wings and loosen up a little, but a trilogy? Has a nice ring to it. They needed more time, more room and to take more risks.

 

 

[Pellaeon 593]

I agree, they could have said, George completed the Saga, how magnificent! We’re going to return to the original idea of a “serial,” and give you more Star Wars adventures just for fun. TRoS obviously had the problem of being crushed under the weight of completing a trilogy and the weight of completing a nonet.

 

In fact I always thought it would have been fun to call TFA “Episode XII” or something random like that, and leave holes in the numbering, like you could just imagine you were joining a serial in progress.

 

Oh well, it must be acknowledged that by sticking to the idea of the final trilogy in the Skywalker Saga they were able to lure in John Williams.

[Demodex 557]

I don't get why people are hating on TROS so badly. Yeah, there are a few things I'd change, but it was a lot of fun. 

 

The more people complain about it the more I appreciate what I liked about it and want to see it again and again. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

What's wrong with listening to fans? Who else alters a product to alienate the core market and discourage them from buying it?

[Chen G. 3,949]

57 minutes ago, Ollie said:

Disney and Lucasfilm should be blamed for not having this trilogy mapped out with a clear objective.

 

Why is it okay for the classic trilogy (which, likewise, was not mapped out) and not okay here?

 

The issue here isn’t a lack of foresight: it’s just that The Rise of Skywalker is a bad movie.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I mean this is Disney we're talking about. That whimsical fairyland company that makes princess cartoons for little girls. What did ya'll expect??

 

Even the word itself "Disney" evokes some kind of juvenile toddler thing that no sane grown-up would go near.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

 

The issue here isn’t a lack of foresight: it’s just that The Rise of Skywalker is a bad movie.

 

Agreed! TLJ followed up from TLJ rather nicely. But TROS has its own agenda, for some reason.

[Matt C 454]

8 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

He's responsible for the mess of TLJ.

Kathleen Kennedy should’ve had Rian do a couple more drafts on TLJ. It felt like she greenlit the movie after his second draft.

[Pellaeon 593]

16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Why is it okay for the classic trilogy (which, likewise, was not mapped out) and not okay here?

 

People DO criticize the Original Trilogy for some of its non sequiturs, especially in RotJ. It succeeds in spite of them. So these new films tried to recapture that haphazard magic, but it didn’t work, and I think it’s valid in 2019 to criticize them on that basis. Timothy Zahn showed how awesome a meticulously plotted LotR-esque Star Wars trilogy could be; and Peter Jackson showed how such a novel trilogy could be brought to the big screen.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

At least this movie will sound good in Dolby Digital Surround EX 6.1 on DVD.

 

If we're lucky, we might even get a DTS-ES 6.1 track! All THX certified.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

24 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

I mean this is Disney we're talking about. That whimsical fairyland company that makes princess cartoons for little girls. What did ya'll expect??

 

Even the word itself "Disney" evokes some kind of juvenile toddler thing that no sane grown-up would go near.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

3 minutes ago, Kasey Kockroach said:

 

Donald and Scrooge are the only manly things to thrive from that steaming pile of prissy princessy sing-song tosh!

[Chen G. 3,949]

37 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Agreed! TLJ followed up from TFA rather nicely. But TROS has its own agenda, for some reason.

 

I think, in his own mind, Abrams was trying to pick-up on some threads left by The Last Jedi. Namely, the Rey-Kylo connection (which was nonexistent in The Force Awakens) and the idea that Rey’s lineage doesn’t dictate her destiny.

 

He just didn’t do a very good job with either of the two threads; or any other, for that matter. Bad movie!

[Pieter Boelen 740]

47 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

What's wrong with listening to fans? Who else alters a product to alienate the core market and discourage them from buying it?

The fans are thoroughly divided.

There isn't even a "the fans" and, on the whole, "they" don't know what they want.

Actively trying to please them is therefore begging for failure.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I don’t think blaming fans is conducive to anything. The Rise of Skywalker is just a bad movie. People occasionally make those: it happens.

The way I see it, it would help if "the fans" would learn to be more open-minded.

To follow the story where it goes, through unexpected twists and turns.

Instead of writing their own stories and do's and don'ts in their heads.

Sure, you can have your wishes, but when you get something else, it pays to judge things on their own merits.

 

That's a difficult thing for people, inside and out of the Star Wars fandoms.

We (and I fully admit I do it too) build up these unrealistic expectations.

And then we get disappointed as they aren't met.

 

Some people's disappointment then turns extreme and toxic.

And that well and truly isn't conducive to anything...

 

40 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

Even the word itself "Disney" evokes some kind of juvenile toddler thing that no sane grown-up would go near.

For some reason, "sane" and "grown-up" seem to equate to "hopeless/defeated" and "without emotion or spirit" these days.

It also involves the direct rejection of anything "kid-like".

 

At the same time, don't we also complain about the world going to shit?

While doing nothing about it.

 

It is true that this is very, very common.

Certainly among grown-ups, as confirmed by the Crisis Management and Human Behaviour course that I followed.

 

But I have yet to understand in which way this is even remotely "sane".

 

9 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

Donald and Scrooge are the only manly things to thrive from that steaming pile of prissy princessy sing-song tosh!

Yup, Scrooge McDuck is a pretty darn excellent character!

Fully agree with you there.

[gkgyver 1,645]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don’t think blaming fans is conducive to anything. The Rise of Skywalker is just a bad movie. People occasionally make those: it happens.

 

I stand by my assumption that the film would have been even worse without the fan backlash. They reshot major parts of the film after test screenings bombed, and edited the shit out of it after it transpired what the film was going to be about. 

So if you think this film is bad, imagine the version that made people leave test screenings out of incredulity.

 

Abrams tried to make up for and undo much of The Last Jedi, which has the critics in a state of spite because they loved that piece of woke bullshit, while Disney and Kathleen Kennedy insisted to keep doubling down on their agenda. Which resulted in a movie that's neither pleasing the critics, nor the fans, because obviously people don't appreciate being treated like dumb cattle. 

 

 

[Ollie 1,059]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

Why is it okay for the classic trilogy (which, likewise, was not mapped out) and not okay here?

 

The issue here isn’t a lack of foresight: it’s just that The Rise of Skywalker is a bad movie.

It was preceded by a bad film. 

 

And while I do not think Lucas had the entire trilogy fully planned, I believe he had it somewhat structured on how he wanted it to go.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Which resulted in a movie that's neither pleasing the critics, 

 

Its critic score on Rotten Tomatoes is excellent, actually.

 

 

[Demodex 557]

Neither TLJ nor TROS are bad movies. 

[Jay 37,369]

Anyone else feel like the discussion of this film just goes around in circles?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

Anyone else feel like the discussion of this film just goes around in circles?

 

You surprised?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

It's a metaphor for the cyclical nature of Star Wars!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

 

The lesson here is, don't listen to whiny entitled fanboys on the internet, because you won't appeal to them, and neither to a broader audience

 

Yes!

[Edmilson 7,466]

Movie studios have all the money in the world to hire only the best storytellers to help bring a fantastic world to the big screen.

 

But what do they do? They prefer listening to Little Stevie, the 19 year old unemployed fanboy who still lives with his mother, has no girlfriend or friends, and spend the days masturbating to cartoon porn, uploading his Call of Duty videos to YouTube and complaining about Hollywood blockbusters on Twitter. Recently, Little Stevie did a video titled "WHY THE LAST JEDI IS THE WORST PIECE OF CRAP EVER MADE" which, thanks to the YT algorithm favoring hysterical and rage filled videos, had a few hundred thousand views, therefore, making him the perfect person to fix the franchise after what the hideous hack Rian Johnson did.

 

Little Stevie didn't go to cinema to watch TROS, because he was too busy complaining about the movie on Twitter after reading the Reddit leaks.

[Chen G. 3,949]

28 minutes ago, Ollie said:

It was preceded by a bad film. 

 

And while I do not think Lucas had the entire trilogy fully planned, I believe he had it somewhat structured on how he wanted it to go.

 

I like The Last Jedi, and in a way The Rise of Skywalker made me appreciate it more. Certainly, next to The Rise of Skywalker its a masterwork.

 

Lucas had nothing planned. Nothing. In fact, originally he planned for Star Wars to be anthological (like Indiana Jones would end up being, instead), "seperate adventures rather than direct sequels", to quote producer Gary Kurtz. Personally, it was clear in simply watching those films that there was no plan.

 

I do however agree with @Pellaeon that its okay to expect more out of trilogies in 2019 than we did in 1978.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

[Ollie 1,059]

18 minutes ago, Jay said:

Anyone else feel like the discussion of this film just goes around in circles?

 
 

I was originally going to post that, we can sit here and debate the merits of all the films as to how bad or how good they are it’s not gonna change anybody’s mind.

[mstrox 6,651]

We should move the entire thread into the Disenchantment.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

 

I stand by my assumption that the film would have been even worse without the fan backlash. They reshot major parts of the film after test screenings bombed, and edited the shit out of it after it transpired what the film was going to be about. 

So if you think this film is bad, imagine the version that made people leave test screenings out of incredulity.

 

Abrams tried to make up for and undo much of The Last Jedi, which has the critics in a state of spite because they loved that piece of woke bullshit, while Disney and Kathleen Kennedy insisted to keep doubling down on their agenda. Which resulted in a movie that's neither pleasing the critics, nor the fans, because obviously people don't appreciate being treated like dumb cattle. 

 

 

Abrams never should've tried to undo much of anything in the first place.

But indeed he did and no amount of reshoots could ever hope to compensate for steering such an inconsistent course.

 

TLJ may have alienated some fans; perhaps even a lot of them. But there were also plenty people who appreciated it just fine.

TROS on the other hand... I can't imagine anyone unequivocally liking it, without any serious caveats.

 

Main reason for me believing this is because, after being quite game on the whole Disney approach, even I left feeling quite disappointed.

Quite the feat to turn away a fairly enthusiastic fan like me.

 

38 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Lucas had nothing planned. In fact, originally he planned for Star Wars to be anthological (like Indiana Jones would end up being, instead), "seperate adventures rather than direct sequels", to quote producer Gary Kurtz.

With Disney wanting to make infinite money, that would've been a perfect approach.

And who knows... maybe one day we'll get there.

Would be nice if Star Wars could be continuous non-repetitive entertainment, with some instalments being better than others, but always another on the horizon.

Bit like James Bond then.

[Edmilson 7,466]

15 minutes ago, Kasey Kockroach said:

 

This reminded me of this tweet:

 

 

TROS' greatest gift to mankind was to insert in the minds of moviegoers all over the world the image of Emperor Palpatine after his face got destroyed having sex.

[Jay 37,369]

27 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

You surprised?

 

Did I say I was?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There isn't a lot to discuss about this film really. It isn't about anything.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Really, it throws so much at the audience that's its tricky to even remember a lot of it, when you try and discuss it.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

16 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

TROS' greatest gift to mankind was to insert in the minds of moviegoers all over the world the image of Emperor Palpatine after his face got destroyed seducing a woman and having sex.

 

"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be...unnatural. You...want this, don't you? _Use_ my *censored*, I beg of you!" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People are complaining about this discussion going around in circles so I'm Rian Johnson'ing it!

[Edmilson 7,466]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Really, it throws so much at the audience that's its tricky to even remember a lot of it, when you try and discuss it.

 

I watched the movie less than 10 days ago, and I find hard to remember a lot of the details. This movie is more forgettable and unremarkable than an action score by Lorne Balfe on autopilot.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

There isn't a lot to discuss about this film really. It isn't about anything.

It’s about family!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 2?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

29 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

There isn't a lot to discuss about this film really. It isn't about anything.

 

When you get down to it, it's about the Jedi and Sith trying to transfer the spirits of the dead to a living body. Rey even mentions this out of nowhere to an obviously computerized autoerotica Leia in her first scene and my brain was like, yep, this is going to be a thing at the end of the movie. As boring as TLJ was, Rian Johnson's one scene with Yoda actually got the closest to Lucas Jedi lore than any of the crap in the rest of these flicks.

[Demodex 557]

TROS is at least better than the prequels. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

5 minutes ago, Demodex said:

TROS is at least better than the prequels. 

 

Many will disagree.

 

 

[Demodex 557]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Many will disagree.

 

20 years from now when I'm looking at my DVD collection and decide to put on a SW movie, I will definitely watch TLJ or TROS before I blow the dust off the PT. 

 

Episodes 1 and 2 are unwatchable now.  At least TLJ and TROS are fun. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

I like Episode I and certainly Episode III more than The Rise of Skywalker.

 

Only the sheer tedium of Episode II is inferior to this nearly-incoherent movie, and not by much.

[Demodex 557]

How is it incoherent?  It's like Raiders of the Lost Ark, only on different planets. It even features the "switched baskets in the marketplace" trick. 

 

The acting and dialogue make TPM and AOTC unwatchable. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its nothing like Raiders. It has enough plot to sustain both Raiders and Temple of Doom, only jam-packed into a two-hour runtime, and as a result its often forgettable (I'm struggling to remember some of the plot, and the multiple action setpieces mesh together in my mind) and, in watching it, it transpired that once or twice I wasn't able to keep track of what was happenning anymore. That rarely happens to me - it certainly never did in the prequel trilogy - and when it does happen, its a problem.

 

Plus, even the most morally-repulsive moment in the prequels (that being "to be angry is to be human") isn't anywhere near as bad as the climax of this film. Its despicable.