HOOK (1991) - NEW! 2023 3-CD Ultimate Edition Produced, Edited, and Mastered by Mike Matessino featuring all Williams/Bricusse songs

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

53 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Nobody arranges Mozart for orchestra either.

 

Very probably not true…

 

Besides, many orchestras play all kinds of stuff. The LSO in particular is quite prolific in all kinds of for-hire projects. If you boycott an orchestra because they play crappy stuff, you'll probably have to include them.

 

And the RSO Vienna (our local orchestra specialised in contemporary classical music, but not exclusively). They're the once who've been playing at Hollywood in Vienna, which included tons of re-arrangements (and quite a few that were in bad taste). It's a licencing issue - in many cases, it's your only option to do a score.

 

Which doesn't mean you have to buy or listen to those. I generally don't. But that doesn't de-value all the other work they've been doing, partly on OST recordings, and of course the excellent Tadlow recordings. Although technically many of them are "arrangements" as well, because the score material is lost and had to be reconstructed for the recordings. Doesn't make them any less good, or any less authentic.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Well, I did say their string section is amazing. It's the arrangement bit I take issue with. Find me three recordings of Mozart or Beethoven symphonies arranged for orchestra played by an orchestra. The licensing issue must be sorted out. Surely it can't be that problematic as Constantino Orts, for one, uses nothing but Williams' signature editions? And Keith Lockhart. It's not even arranging per se that is my problem, it's arranging and devaluing the piece in question. I have nothing against adding more woodwinds to Pirates of the Caribbean, that brings something to the piece.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Yes, I know about licensing, but I don't care. Nobody arranges Mozart for orchestra either. Do it right or don't do it at all. Their string section in particular is outstanding.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding how it works... yes they do. There are thousands of stock music interpretations of classical pieces - some for different instrumentations, some modernising them, and some reasonably similar to the original. Same for Christmas Carols, and such.

 

If you wanted no creatively questionable recordings of your favourite piece to exist, you'd have to shut down an entire industry.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

But some arrangements actually benefit the piece. Listen to Prague's Mischief Managed and... urgh.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

7 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Let me make it easier for you. Anything City of Prague --> recycle bin. They've released so much garbage and so little of quality that I don't even bother anymore.

 

I've always been miffed that theirs is the only re-recording of Broughton's Lost In Space concert piece anywhere in existence.

_{(^If anyone can prove the above statement wrong, you will have absolutely made my day)}

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I've heard Tadlow's recordings all over the place in some of the BBC's shows (Top Gear and other documentary stuff) so the licensing audience likes their stuff, at least. If library companies (or those using the music) don't like what they're getting, they tend to stop representing a label.

 

So yeah, some are a mixed bag for pure listening but that's the world of re-recording things, and you'll find versions of almost everything that are probably total crap because the real revenue source probably doesn't care if the orchestra's performance is a bit rubbish.

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

28 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Surely it can't be that problematic as Constantino Orts, for one, uses nothing but Williams' signature editions? And Keith Lockhart.

 

I don't know Orts. As for Lockhart, I'm pretty sure several pieces he recorded for Lights, Camera… Music! are not available as signature editions. And that's Williams we're talking about, at least some of his stuff *is* available regularly for orchestras to perform. For most other film music, there are simply no parts available. Lockhart and the Pops may have some insider channels to get the original material, but most orchestras won't have that - for them it's a matter of performing custom arrangements or nothing at all. And keep in mind that most of Williams's own extensive discography with the Boston Pops consists of rearrangements - mostly done specifically for him.

 

That doesn't make me any more of a fan of most rearrangements or their recordings. But it certainly doesn't devalue other things the same orchestras record, either.

[Erik Woods 555]

On 28/01/2024 at 8:38 AM, Holko said:

Yes, their Tadlow/Prometheus complete rerecordings are all fantastic.

Indeed they are, so saying that EVERYTHING City of Prague Phil is garbage is just... well... foolish.

 

-Erik-

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Yes yes I'll take it back. I just hate iinferior arrangements, no matter who plays them.

[Foxfan 128]

On 18/1/2024 at 6:20 PM, WellOfSouls said:

Just got mine in the mail from Intrada. Anybody else missing the 48 page booklet? Track listing is there but no liner notes.

Same here having ordered from Intrada! Did you hear back from Intrada or La-La Land? I’m missing the 48-page booklet as well! 😢

[Jay 37,369]

People in the FSM thread have said that they emailed Matt at LLL and he mailed them a booklet right away .

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Out of stock again! At this rate, this will be OOP before the year ends.

[Madmartigan JC 85]

Shit! I've been trying every day over a month to buy this in tandem with the recently-back-in-stock A.I., plus some other CDs with no luck.
 

[Trope 527]

If one was trying to create a complete chronological playlist for this score including the songs that were fully recorded but ended up unused (i.e. not the piano/vocal demos), where would one place "When You're Alone - Moira's Lullaby" and "Low Below - Pirate Sequence"?

[crumbs 14,317]

6 minutes ago, Trope said:

If one was trying to create a complete chronological playlist for this score including the songs that were fully recorded but ended up unused (i.e. not the piano/vocal demos), where would one place "When You're Alone - Moira's Lullaby" and "Low Below - Pirate Sequence"?

 

Moira's Lullaby probably belongs before Saying Goodnight.

 

Low Below - Pirate Sequence belongs before Hook's Entrance (but Presenting the Hook is the cue that replaced that whole sequence, so both tracks lead correctly into Hook's Entrance).

[Jay 37,369]

6 hours ago, Trope said:

If one was trying to create a complete chronological playlist for this score including the songs that were fully recorded but ended up unused (i.e. not the piano/vocal demos), where would one place "When You're Alone - Moira's Lullaby" and "Low Below - Pirate Sequence"?

 

You can't program them into the main program like you say, because in both cases score cues were written to replace them. The liner notes explain this, but I can clarify anyway.

 

"Moria's Lullaby" would have happened when the parents say goodnight to the children before heading to the gala event.  When the footage was removed, "Saying Goodnight" was written and recorded for the new cut of the scene that doesn't feature her singing.  So you could put the song after that cue if you want, but then you sort of have a "double ending" to the scene.

 

The track "Pirate Town and Presenting the Hook" contains four cues: "Arrival At Neverland", "Slicing The Hand", "I'll Take Those Shoes", and "Show Us Your Hook". The cut song and dance number would have happened after "I'll Take Those Shoes", and brought us all the way to the stairs of Hook's ship. When they decided not to use the song, "Show Us Your Hook" was written and recorded for the new cut of footage that gets Peter and the Hook to the stairs of Hook's ship, largely made up of footage repurposed from the song footage. So again you could put it after that track, but again you'd be doubling up on the arrival at the ship. You basically have to use audio editing software to remove the "Show Your Your Hook" cue from the "Pirate Town and Presenting The Hook" track if you want to use the song in your main program.

[Holko 9,529]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

So you could put the song after that cue if you want, but then you sort of have a "double ending" to the scene.

I put it in front to avoid that, so her singing introduces the theme and the orchestra immediately picks it up.

[Jay 37,369]

Yeah that could work!

 

Also, while that song is finished, featuring Caroline Goodall's vocals, "Low Below" is not finished. That's not Bob Hoskins performing as Smee in the recording, it's an unknown temporary voice.  Bob Hoskins never recorded vocals for it (except for whatever was recorded on-set when they filmed it, I guess).

[Holko 9,529]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

Low Below is not finished. That's not Bob Hoskins performing as Smee in the recording, it's an unknown temporary voice.

And the orchestral additions for the end are sampled, I guess they probably would have been properly recorded too.

[Trope 527]

Thank you so much for that info @Jay

I really did try to find it out on my own by re-reading the booklet, but I wasn’t 100% sure about what was going to be used and then ended up cut or replaced entirely. I’ve also only seen the film once about a month ago, so I just wanted to be sure.

 

I guess the solution is to sequence an alternate program after the film score proper, similar to what John Takis suggested earlier in the thread. 

[Jay 37,369]

I mean, disc 3 already is an alternate program after the film score proper, right?  But yes, you can take the disc 2 bonus tracks and intermingle them into disc 3, sure.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Any chance we could get a breakdown at some point of which cues were recorded when? It would be great to see what cues were recorded after the infamous OST had been assembled.

(Also still hoping for Harry Potter 1 recording dates...)

[Jay 37,369]

Why is the OST infamous?

[Jay 37,369]

Recorded after the OST was locked:

1. 1-03 Banning Back Home (Film Version) - the entire track

2. 1-27 The Never-Feast (Film Version) - just the Insert

3. 2-06 The Ultimate War (Film Version) - just the two Inserts
4. 2-07 Death Of Rufio - just the first cue in the track
5. 2-08 The Sword Fight And The End Of Hook - the entire track
6. 2-10 Hook End Credits And Exit Music - just the final cue (Exit Music)
7. 3-02 God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen - the entire track
8. 3-20 Farewell Neverland (Short Version / Alternate) - just the Kensington Extension
9. 3-21 Hook Exit Music (Alternate) - the entire track

[Chewy 2,391]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Recorded after the OST was locked:

1. 1-03 Banning Back Home (Film Version) - the entire track

 

Interesting because this was included on the 2012 LLL.

They must have used the film stems for that track too then (I thought it was used only for the Ultimate War tracks!)

[Jay 37,369]

It's right from the film's music stem on that release.

[Chewy 2,391]

I just compared both versions, the new LLL mix sounds so much better 

[Jay 37,369]

The film version of Banning Back Home was the very last piece of music recorded for the project in 1991.  It was recorded less than a month before the film opened

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Does anyone else just not understand Banning Back Home at all? And certainly not as an inclusion on a soundtrack album for a wonderful epic fantasy score.

 

I hope its many fans take this the right way, but it comes across to me as a piece of 70s library music.

[Brando 1,864]

47 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Does anyone else just not understand Banning Back Home at all? And certainly not as an inclusion on a soundtrack album for a wonderful epic fantasy score.

 

I hope its many fans take this the right way, but it comes across to me as a piece of 70s library music.

IIIRC, MM had a little explanation for this on the podcast, although if true I can't remember exactly what he said.

[Faleel 5,355]

47 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Does anyone else just not understand Banning Back Home at all?

It's typical 90's Jazz stuff:

 

 

[Smeltington 1,440]

I enjoy it for what it is, but it certainly falls squarely into the "easy listening" category. Much like some of Williams' 70s source music. I think a fan of Williams' usual sound could be forgiven for skipping this track.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

Recorded after the OST was locked:

1. 1-03 Banning Back Home (Film Version) - the entire track

2. 1-27 The Never-Feast (Film Version) - just the Insert

3. 2-06 The Ultimate War (Film Version) - just the two Inserts
4. 2-07 Death Of Rufio - just the first cue in the track
5. 2-08 The Sword Fight And The End Of Hook - the entire track
6. 2-10 Hook End Credits And Exit Music - just the final cue (Exit Music)
7. 3-02 God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen - the entire track
8. 3-20 Farewell Neverland (Short Version / Alternate) - just the Kensington Extension
9. 3-21 Hook Exit Music (Alternate) - the entire track

Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

Does anyone else just not understand Banning Back Home at all? And certainly not as an inclusion on a soundtrack album for a wonderful epic fantasy score.

 

I hope its many fans take this the right way, but it comes across to me as a piece of 70s library music.

Yeah, I mean, it's nice, but seems a weird choice to include on the OST.

[Jay 37,369]

I think the point of it is to set the opening Los Angeles sequence apart from the rest of the film.

 

The early LA scenes have their own musical identity, just the diagetic piano at the school play, and then Banning Back Home for the montage of everything else that happens there.  Once they get to London - a "magical place", the actual score properly kicks in with the Childhood theme as Wendy is seen at the top of the stairs.

[oierem 152]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I think the point of it is to set the opening Los Angeles sequence apart from the rest of the film.

 

The early LA scenes have their own musical identity, just the diagetic piano at the school play, and then Banning Back Home for the montage of everything else that happens.  Once they get to London - a "magical place", the actual score properly kicks in with the Childhood theme as Wendy is seen at the top of the stairs.

 

Yes.

Furthermore, in the London scenes, there is no music whenever the scene deals with the "real word". The music is used for when the "magic" creeps into the scenes (Wendy's first appearance, the haunted nursery scene, Wendy telling her story...) and is interrupted when Peter breaks the magic (when he closes the window for example).

 

Once we get to Neverland, the film is scored pretty much wall-to-wall (although some sections were ultimately unused).

 

 

It's an interesting way of scoring the film, similar to the first Harry Potter films. No music when there's no magic.

 

 

[Jay 37,369]

Or Empire of the Sun - music only when Jim is imagining a better world

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Something I just realised: it's crazy that Williams chose the alternate ending to Flight to Neverland for the OST. I have no idea why one would even score it that way.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

17 hours ago, Jay said:

Recorded after the OST was locked:

1. 1-03 Banning Back Home (Film Version) - the entire track

2. 1-27 The Never-Feast (Film Version) - just the Insert

3. 2-06 The Ultimate War (Film Version) - just the two Inserts
4. 2-07 Death Of Rufio - just the first cue in the track
5. 2-08 The Sword Fight And The End Of Hook - the entire track
6. 2-10 Hook End Credits And Exit Music - just the final cue (Exit Music)
7. 3-02 God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen - the entire track
8. 3-20 Farewell Neverland (Short Version / Alternate) - just the Kensington Extension
9. 3-21 Hook Exit Music (Alternate) - the entire track

And is this also the stuff that Didier Deutsch didn't have access to years ago?

[QuartalHarmony 543]

14 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Does anyone else just not understand Banning Back Home at all? And certainly not as an inclusion on a soundtrack album for a wonderful epic fantasy score.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'understand' it, but I've enjoyed it since I first heard it, though I can appreciate that it might discombobulate fans of JW's usual orchestral work. Very happy it was included on the original album, and happy too that the film version wasn't, since I don't think it's as good. I love the extended version on the LLL release - Mike's soloing is first class.

 

It might depend on how one feels about jazz and, specifically, what is sometimes (slightly demeaningly) called 'smooth jazz'. Personally, I like jazz a lot, including Daves Grusin and Benoit, whose style is what is being aped in BBH.

 

I might put together a playlist of all of JW's 70s/80s pop/smooth jazz tracks. There are some lovely ones on Earthquake and Eiger - care to direct my attention to any others?

 

Mark

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I was trying to be diplomatic using the term 'understand'. In the context of the Hook score, I don't think it fits the listening experience at all. It's more mystifying because there are other examples of Williams leaving certain cues off an album because he wants to maintain a certain mood for the album (for example, leaving the TV cue off The Terminal perhaps because it's otherwise a happy album).

 

I wonder whether it's Williams enjoying writing a jazz piece and deciding he wants it on the album, despite not really fitting stylistically.

[oierem 152]

19 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I was trying to be diplomatic using the term 'understand'. In the context of the Hook score, I don't think it fits the listening experience at all. It's more mystifying because there are other examples of Williams leaving certain cues off an album because he wants to maintain a certain mood for the album (for example, leaving the TV cue off The Terminal perhaps because it's otherwise a happy album).

 

I wonder whether it's Williams enjoying writing a jazz piece and deciding he wants it on the album, despite not really fitting stylistically.

 

As Jay put it, it fits in the sense that it contrast with the orchestral score that comes later. It's a gradual introduction to the world of magic.

 

In fact, removing the Prologue track from the beginning of the soundtrack creates a better listening experience, in my opinion, as it's such a spoilery track.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

16 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Does anyone else just not understand Banning Back Home at all? And certainly not as an inclusion on a soundtrack album for a wonderful epic fantasy score.

 

I hope its many fans take this the right way, but it comes across to me as a piece of 70s library music.

As I remember from the podcast, Banning Back Home kind of represents Peter's world of his adult reality where tha fantasy has no place, and it's probably the kind of music, that he listens to in his leisure time.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Oh I get that - it's stylistically highting the difference between the two worlds the film presents.

 

I just think its inclusion on the OST is misplaced. It's the sort of piece where many other composers or filmmakers would have just found a library track and used that to exactly the same effect.

[Trope 527]

26 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Oh I get that - it's stylistically highting the difference between the two worlds the film presents.

 

I just think its inclusion on the OST is misplaced.

As often as we disagree, I do have to side with you on this point. When I first listened to the OST just a few months ago (not having yet seen the film), I was slightly thrown off by how the opening of the album is sequenced (from a purely listening point of view). It starts with the magnificent and swashbuckling Prologue, which perfectly sets the stage for what will come later, and then we suddenly veer away from the orchestra for over 4 minutes into what essentially sounds like source music. I'm not sure what a potential "solution" would be in terms of constructing an album sequence...

[Richard Penna 3,694]

My solution would be that the OST should be a concept album for Neverland, and all the real world adult material would find a home on the expanded release. I don't think there's a way to include it amongst the fantasy music without sticking out like a sore thumb.

 

I first heard the OST decades ago and, not being very familiar with the film (I've seen it once probably), did what you just described; heard the wonderful prologue, skimmed past 'We Don't Wanna Grow Up' (school play at the start... not my thing but fair enough), then came to track 3 and thought... what on earth is this?

 

I get what Williams wanted to do with including that track, but when removed from the context of the film I don't think it comes across well.

[Tom Guernsey 2,286]

I'd never really thought about it before, but guess you just get used to the inclusion of both Banning Back Home and We Don't Wanna Grow Up and don't question it. However, there is a certain logic of these slightly left field pieces starting off what turns into a grand fantasy score. Then again, they're less intrusive both tonally and structurally than the Cantina Band cues from Star Wars and somehow it seems fine having them halfway through a grandiose, swashbuckling sci-fi score.

[Trope 527]

15 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I'd never really thought about it before, but guess you just get used to the inclusion of both Banning Back Home and We Don't Wanna Grow Up and don't question it. However, there is a certain logic of these slightly left field pieces starting off what turns into a grand fantasy score. Then again, they're less intrusive both tonally and structurally than the Cantina Band cues from Star Wars and somehow it seems fine having them halfway through a grandiose, swashbuckling sci-fi score.

True, I never considered the Cantina Band being intrusive to Star Wars! Then again, I believe it closed out the first LP on the original OST program, so it kind of feels like a bonus track in that regard.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

And Williams is member of the same generation of film composers from the 60s like Henry Mancini, where it was quite common that the composer also writes the source music for the movie, like music for party scenes or even the songs performed in the picture. And Banning Back Home isn't even source music.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Cantina sounds more fitting as it's source within the SW world whereas Banning is within the real world. I think that's the key difference. The latter may not technically function as source but it has that effect for me.

 

Also get a general sense that Williams likes writing source/related pieces, or at least arranging/conducting them himself, and therefore he's far more likely to choose to put them on his album, regardless of whether it works, cinematically. A bit like the national anthem in The Terminal - it's got bugger all to do with his score but he wrote it instead of SS using a library piece, so he puts it on.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

My solution would be that the OST should be a concept album for Neverland, and all the real world adult material would find a home on the expanded release. I don't think there's a way to include it amongst the fantasy music without sticking out like a sore thumb.

 

I first heard the OST decades ago and, not being very familiar with the film (I've seen it once probably), did what you just described; heard the wonderful prologue, skimmed past 'We Don't Wanna Grow Up' (school play at the start... not my thing but fair enough), then came to track 3 and thought... what on earth is this?

 

I get what Williams wanted to do with including that track, but when removed from the context of the film I don't think it comes across well.

Prologue and then Granny Wendy music would have been a nice start for the OST.