Michael Giacchino's Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016) - 2022 Expanded Edition now available

[leeallen01 2,136]

I find that footage very encouraging. I can close my eyes and feel Star Wars well enough, so job done. It sounds exactly like the expectations; Giacchino doing his own Star Wars score. Just as Desplat or anyone else would have sounded like themselves doing Williams doing Star Wars.

 

No one can do entirely their own thing. It would have been interesting, which is why perhaps Desplat was let go, but it wouldn't have worked for the grand scheme of things. Essentially, without Williams, you are reduced to whomever composes it sounding like themselves, sounding like Williams, doing Star Wars.

 

The strings and brass had that perfect feeling for me, and sounded fun and energetic.

 

It may not be the score that some of Giacchino's detractors want, but it's the score the film needs.

[King Mark 3,631]

sounds ok

[crocodile 8,017]

Just watched it. It sounds Star Wars enough.

 

Karol

[King Mark 3,631]

who knows maybe he'll pull out a few cues as good  as Medal of Honor and we'll have a decent score

[artguy360 1,843]

The clip of the 2nd cue sounds like typical Gia music when he is trying to cover too much ground in different directions all at the same time. Maybe it will work perfectly in the film, but this clip makes the cue sound musically confused with itself.

[Saxman717 22]

17 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

The clip of the 2nd cue sounds like typical Gia music when he is trying to cover too much ground in different directions all at the same time. Maybe it will work perfectly in the film, but this clip makes the cue sound musically confused with itself.

 

couldn't have said it better, artguy.  The cues sound OK but reinforce the fears that someone on here had expressed earlier ---- that Giacchino just tries too damn hard and doesn't have the natural gift that JW has, so his cues just lack a certain something special.  

 

Sure, it sounds Star Wars-esque, but the cues feel woefully lacking in the complexity that we've been so spoiled with with JW's Star Wars scores and end up feeling like the music is tripping over itself, trying its best to emulate JW's style.

 

 I haven't heard giac's medal of honor music, but all of his scores for modern blockbuster movies have been terribly lacking for me ---- even Star Trek.  I am a life-long JW fan here, since age 3, and know his Star Wars music inside and out.  Personally, I don't think Giac should be given the "keys to the kingdom" for future Star Wars scores.  Maybe a score here or there, if the rest of this Rogue One score sounds better and more naturally Star Wars in nature.......but he really shouldn't be considered the go-to guy for the Star Wars saga movies once JW hands off the baton permanently.

 

Edit:  2nd listen yielded a little more enjoyment.  It still feels like it lacks the complexity of JW's classic form, but I'm interested in hearing the rest of the score.  There should be some good gems in there.  Still would like others to get their chance future Star Wars films.  i just want 1 score that rises to the satisfaction of the Empire Strikes Back score --- whomever accomplishes that, book him/her for all future saga films....

[Will 2,215]

@crumbs, where roughly in this week's Oxygen is the Rogue One discussion?

[crumbs 14,317]

1 hour ago, Will said:

@crumbs, where roughly in this week's Oxygen is the Rogue One discussion?

 

Brief discussion on the score is around 24:55; Jimmy Mac reports back on the music from his screening at Skywalker ranch. "It's definitely inspired by John Williams but it's definitely not John Williams at the same time."

 

Then a full preview of Giacchino's score from about 59:50 (mostly speculation) until the Marvel film scores discussion.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

leeallen01's post could almost be mistaken as wise, but for the fact that it's really bullshit.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

12 minutes ago, Prerecorded Briefing said:

leeallen01's post could almost be mistaken as wise, but for the fact that it's really bullshit.

 

You give too much credit. 

[curlytoot 97]

New clip.

 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

I don't think that's a very flattering clip for the film. 

[curlytoot 97]

Really? Feels like Star Wars to me.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

the music too

14 hours ago, Bespin said:

My Gad, this guy... doesn't even direct his own music?

Most composers today dont conduct their own music.

 

I dont think even old Danny Elfman does.

[crumbs 14,317]

It feels like every clip they release has some form of humour thrown in. Have to wonder how much was added in the reshoots and how much was in the original cut.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

8 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Most composers today dont conduct their own music.

 

Why would they? Most of it is performed on synths anyway!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It's not like composers have ever been required to also be conductors.  I hardly care about that.

[Will 2,215]

13 hours ago, Saxman717 said:

 

couldn't have said it better, artguy.  The cues sound OK but reinforce the fears that someone on here had expressed earlier ---- that Giacchino just tries too damn hard and doesn't have the natural gift that JW has, so his cues just lack a certain something special.  

 

Sure, it sounds Star Wars-esque, but the cues feel woefully lacking in the complexity that we've been so spoiled with with JW's Star Wars scores and end up feeling like the music is tripping over itself, trying its best to emulate JW's style.

 

I do agree with most of this. (But I still like the second cue quite a bit.)

 

29 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

It's not like composers have ever been required to also be conductors.  I hardly care about that.

 

I do think it's "cooler" when the composer conducts, though. 

 

Just like it's cooler to me when a composer writes everything by hand.

 

Are these thoughts somewhat irrational? Perhaps. But I don't think I'm the only one who has these biases anyway. 

 

-----------------

 

Pretty great new clip btw. 

 

Speaking of the music in it, I think the key is that we have to remember that a lot of action music these days can barely be heard in the film mix. Star Wars fans love the Williams "aesthetic," and in that clip you can just make out a few Williams-y brass flourishes, etc. 

 

Regardless of how it sounds on album, I think it's highly likely that Giacchino was the best choice for this film (from Lucasfilm's perspective, if not necessarily that of every film score fan). The fans will hear that it sounds vaguely like Williams and they'll feel at home. They might even like it more than TFA's score! 

 

Now, how more die hard film score fans react, particularly when listening outside of the film, remains to be seen. 

[Bespin 8,483]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Most composers today dont conduct their own music.

 

Well, "this explain that".

[Will 2,215]

The scoring sessions video is on YouTube now btw (so in higher resolution):

 

 

This is NOT a new video!!

 

-----------------------

 

Also, here's Jimmy Mac on Star Wars Oxygen around 24:55 (I didn't include some irrelevant sentences, irrelevant David W. Collins interjections, etc.)

 

Quote

It sounds like Star Wars music. I think Giacchino's done a really good job, based on what I've heard. It's definitely influenced by Williams. But it's definitely not John Williams at the same time. It's hard for me to really sum it all up after just seeing it for the first time, because there was just so much to absorb. Didn't here too many callbacks to Williams stuff, specifically note for note, any of the themes. Except I did here the main theme being referenced, a few times, most notably with the introduction of _____ (spoiler bleeped out of the show). But that's the only time any familiar themes registered in the half hour of material that I saw. 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

1 hour ago, Will said:

Regardless of how it sounds on album, I think it's highly likely that Giacchino was the best choice for this film (from Lucasfilm's perspective, if not necessarily that of every film score fan).

 

No.

[Bespin 8,483]

They should have chose a composer who can conduct his own music!

[Will 2,215]

More from Jimmy Mac:

 

Quote

I don't think he (Giacchino) is going to disappoint. I was really trying to keep my ear open for maybe a Jyn's theme, and just, it wasn't coming to me so fast. Of course a theme has to establish itself, so I didn't see enough to take note of any recurring music. But there was a battle sequence, and I was thinking that was fairly effective and exciting. 

 

Also, on September 23, Giacchino apparently told the crowd at a Q and A before or after a Lost concert, regarding what Rogue One would sound like, "I have no idea; I just started working on it," according to someone who was there who called in on the show. 

 

And of course he started recording November 1, finishing around November 9 (the EW article published November 23 said "two weeks ago"). For comparison in case anyone cares, TFA's last day of recording was November 14 -- but of course that was a culmination of a much more drawn out schedule. 

 

I know we already knew about the four and a half weeks he had, but I still thought I'd mention that. 

 

Thanks to @crumbs for pointing out where Rogue One was discussed!

 

17 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

No.

 

Who do you think would get better reactions from SW fandom and the public at large? (and don't say John Williams, he wasn't available)

 

I mean, it's possible Desplat would have, but let's just say it's no sure thing, which is probably why Lucasfilm was giving him trouble (which is what it sounds like happened). 

 

14 minutes ago, Bespin said:

They should have chose a composer who can conduct his own music!

 

I believe he CAN, he just usually chooses not to. 

 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Will 2,215]

6 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

It's not about which composer would have gotten better reactions from the SW fandom and the public at large (the public at large doesn't give a flying fuck about which composer scores the film, anyway), it's about which composer could have offered the best music for the film. And in that regard, Djiatchino simply isn't "the best choice for this film". At least, not in my not-so-humble opinion.

 

Well, I was indeed talking about what composer would get better reactions from larger SW fandom! (i.e. who would Disney execs who want the company to make as much money as possible want as composer?)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

OK, then sure, fine, you're right.

[Will 2,215]

I mean, I do understand that I basically stated the obvious. But I think it's true. 

 

Depending on your thoughts on Giacchino, that fact can either be good or bad, of course.

 

And again, my excitement over Giacchino's score is not rooted in any great Giacchino and Desplat knowledge. 

 

It was just that, based on what I'd heard from the two composers (which, admittedly, included more Giacchino than Desplat, clearly biasing me), I became much more excited for the score when Giacchino was announced. 

 

Perhaps my opinions on the two will shift over time.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

19 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 (the public at large doesn't give a flying fuck about which composer scores the film, anyway)

 

They, the cinema-going public, do. And Giacchino has been the favorite. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

OK.

[KK 3,307]

The cinema-going public knows who Giacchino is?

[Will 2,215]

One interesting thing from the latest Star Wars Oxygen was a woman calling from Chicagoland who said she and her teenage son were Giacchino super fans. 

 

Wonder if either of them (particularly the son, of course) are on the forums here. 

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

3 minutes ago, Will said:

(...) she and her teenage son were Giacchino super fans. 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

42 minutes ago, KK said:

The cinema-going public knows who Giacchino is?

 

In Blumeland, it does, apparently.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

1 hour ago, KK said:

The cinema-going public knows who Giacchino is?

 

You know, now that I think about it, you're right. Studios spend millions of dollars marketing film scores, creating score featurettes, release score samples, have their composers give interviews to the press, help nominate them for awards, use music as a pillar of pre-release buzz and marketing, getting press releases about composers out, all for the 200 or so aspergers-ridden colonies of film music analysts at JWFan and FSM.

 

Giacchino has more marketing clout than Gareth Edwards on this film. Only the top-billed cast are probably more well known. 

 

[Will 2,215]

Well, yeah, @Blumenkohl, that's the thing.

 

I always think, "Why do studios often hire an accomplished composer and book a full orchestra?" 

 

This is a great expense -- why don't they use classical music? 

 

Or why don't they just have some college student write a score and the mock-ups be the final version?

 

Why don't they just score the film with old scores that the studio still owns the rights to?

 

And, however crazy it seems to me -- I still can't figure it out -- the answer must be that, overall, people do care about this stuff. 

 

(Or am I wrong? Is it just that film studios are so tied to the "old ways" that they'll make non-profit-enhancing moves in order to keep traditions strong?)

 

But, anyway, particularly when you're dealing with Star Wars, which has a large fanbase. Many of these fans, it seems, view the music as an important part of Star Wars, even if they're not film score fans overall. Many of these fans are also nostalgic for the OT.

 

Therefore, at the very least they'll likely want a score in the Williams aesthetic, and to hear some of his famous themes. 

 

Now, the non-SW super fans (i.e. regular movie goers who are more casually interested in SW as a fun little film) -- do they really care about the music? I don't know. As I said above, this whole thing baffles me. 

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Of course movie-goers care about the music. Even if they don't know Giacchino off the top of their heads, Disney knows that they will have different reactions to a Star Wars movie with a Daft Punk score and a Star Wars movie with a Giacchino score or some driving synth bass rhythm by Desplat. 

 

Hollywood has been tinkering with music for as long as they've been making films. Through over a century of empiricism they've come to the conclusion that most people are aware of and care about film music, even if they are not fapping to complete editions. 

 

Next time you see Gabriel Yared, tell him how most movie-goers probably don't even notice the score.

[publicist 4,643]

25 minutes ago, Will said:

I always think, "Why do studios often hire an accomplished composer and book a full orchestra?" 

 

This is a great expense -- why don't they use classical music? 

 

Or why don't they just have some college student write a score and the mock-ups be the final version?

 

Why don't they just score the film with old scores that the studio still owns the rights to?

 

And, however crazy it seems to me -- I still can't figure it out -- the answer must be that, overall, people do care about this stuff. 

 

This isn't done so much because anyone 'cares' about music but just because Hollywood since ages marshalled huge forces to bring out the 'best' product (read: most shinily packaged, above competition) - it's what they do and what they are good at. To infere from the fact that they spend a lot of money that anyone at Disney or indeed any other place there cares about good movie scores (or 'good' music) is loudly proven wrong by the many patently mediocre or bad scores of the last decades.

 

In fact, they just ousted a highly capable composer at the last minute forcing replacement Giacchino (leaving his musical credentials aside for a moment) to produce a 2-hour score in just a few weeks. Go figure.

 

 

 

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Ah yes, the old: what I don't like is bad music, I don't like a lot of film music, therefore a lot of film music is bad, thus the public doesn't care about music in movies. 

 

Impeccable continental rationalist logic there! This place really has dropped in brain power in recent years. 

[publicist 4,643]

No, it's just your pitiful begging for attention with sad kindergarten arguments as usual. 

 

Who the fuck cares if the public cares about anything if it results in a whole lot of mediocre stuff? What's next? Blumenkohl gives scientific proof that Fantastic Four sequels are good because they draw huge numbers? I mean, seriously.

[Will 2,215]

46 minutes ago, publicist said:

Who the fuck cares if the public cares about anything if it results in a whole lot of mediocre stuff? What's next? Blumenkohl gives scientific proof that Fantastic Four sequels are good because they draw huge numbers? I mean, seriously.

 

Well, at least from my point of view I'd simply be interested at the moment in figuring out the basic question of, "Why do movie studios even bother to pay lots of money for composers and orchestras to produce film scores?" 

 

At least to me, this discussion today really wasn't about whether modern film music is good or not; it was about why there is so much money put into creating modern film scores at all.

 

Just because there are low quality film scores produced does not necessary mean that the public doesn't care about music in film (although it could serve as evidence of that). 

 

First, it may be that the public cares more about the general aesthetic of music in film and not on the specific "quality" as judged by an experienced score fanatic. 

 

Second, modern pop music is, obviously, extremely popular, yet often not of particularly high quality -- does that serve as evidence that no one cares about pop music? 

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

 

This isn't done so much because anyone 'cares' about music but just because Hollywood since ages marshalled huge forces to bring out the 'best' product (read: most shinily packaged, above competition) - it's what they do and what they are good at.

 

Ah, now this is an interesting point and this may well be the key. Perhaps Hollywood has big score budgets simply because they want to make their work the best it can be, even going beyond what's necessary to make lots of money (i.e. their motivation in producing expensive scores is not really related so much to getting more profit). 

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

In fact, they just ousted a highly capable composer at the last minute forcing replacement Giacchino (leaving his musical credentials aside for a moment) to produce a 2-hour score in just a few weeks. Go figure.

 

Well, if they did indeed oust Desplat intentionally, or even if they just gave him a lot of trouble over his musical vision, that shows they DO care about the score, right? 

 

If not, then they would have of course just taken whatever Desplat gave them initially without giving him any trouble, and certainly never even thought of hiring another composer, since they would know that no matter what they did most people wouldn't care. 

 

Anyway, I suppose my question of "Why do movie studios even bother to pay lots of money for composers and orchestras to produce film scores?" has no clear answer. I'd be interested in hearing more from posters here though. 

 

------------------------

New clip with more music:

 

 

Nice clip! And music sounds Star Wars-y, at least for most of the time. 

 

This action music, like all the music in the clips we've seen so far I think, is strong in context. But some of it, perhaps including this cue, will probably be rather boring on album (assuming it's on the album). 

[KK 3,307]

13 minutes ago, Will said:

Anyway, I suppose my question of "Why do movie studios even bother to pay lots of money for composers and orchestras to produce film scores?" has no clear answer. I'd be interested in hearing more from posters here though. 

 

Because the product demands it. A Star Wars film works and resonates best with a traditional, full-blown orchestral score. A Batman film seems to work better nowadays with a Zimmer-style score. That doesn't mean studios truly care about the quality of the music itself. They don't so exclusively about that detail. Film-making is a more hollistic process than that.

 

Of course, the general public still likes film music. But let's not really kid ourselves that outside of select niche crowds, there are masses of the cinema-going public, eager to hear Giacchino's SW score, or his next work.

 

Giacchino's most lasting work in the public-consciousness will be the Up theme. But I doubt people came out of Doctor Strange, Star Trek Beyond or Zootopia effusing praise in Giacchino'sname. There aren't many films that have that kind of direct impact with its audiences.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Will 2,215]

On another note, it seems like one of those clips (the one with the ship trying to land on the dark planet) may have been scored at least partially with the "Approach on Eadu" music that we heard in the scoring session video. 

[Jay 37,369]

44 minutes ago, Will said:

New clip with more music:

 

 

 

Woah!  That's the best music yet! 

[publicist 4,643]

17 minutes ago, Will said:

Well, at least from my point of view I'd simply be interested at the moment in figuring out the basic question of, "Why do movie studios even bother to pay lots of money for composers and orchestras to produce film scores?" 

 

To make splashy product (basically)

 

Quote

At least to me, this discussion today really wasn't about whether modern film music is good or not; it was about why there is so much money put into creating modern film scores at all.

 

Just because there are low quality film scores produced does not necessary mean that the public doesn't care about music in film (although it could serve as evidence of that). 

 

First, it may be that the public cares more about the general aesthetic of music in film and not on the specific "quality" as judged by an experienced score fanatic. 

 

Second, modern pop music is, obviously, extremely popular, yet often not of particularly high quality -- does that serve as evidence that no one cares about pop music? 

 

But that 'care' is basically a non-entity; as you said, too many factors that must be taken into account before we actually could make a point of a huge demographic that really takes notice or even demands music in film (of a certain kind). My experiences point to the contrary, even knowledgable people usually need some pummeling before realizing there is even music playing. They notice the cumulative effect, though.

 

As it is, the word 'care' seems a bit bombastic for the occasion (nerdy conventions aside)

 

Quote

Well, if they did indeed oust Desplat intentionally, or even if they just gave him a lot of trouble over his musical vision, that shows they DO care about the score, right? 

 

If not, then they would have of course just taken whatever Desplat gave them initially without giving him any trouble, and certainly never even thought of hiring another composer, since they would know that no matter what they did most people wouldn't care. 

 

This is all heavy assuming work - the reasons could be political and have nothing to do with the score altogether: basically you must shrink your argumentation to a workable level, ie. in case of SW (huge cash cow) there is heightened awareness of JW's musical legacy, but it's hard to determine if that is really proof that anyone outside of Los Angeles and the fan community actively scrutinizes the score for this movie to the point that it would matter in numbers, i. e. withdrawing support because of musical incongruencies or whatever.

 

The point i'm trying to make is that it's all good and well to argue that the music matters but when, in the end, the subject of much discussion here, the film score, is objectively in a rather bad shape regarding Hollywood product - for a variety of reasons - what good does it yield? It may even have worse effect on a purely musical level because what the layman actually likes and recognizes about such things has not a whole lot to do with the quality of a composition or the capability of the composer, ergo the quality of the music in absolute terms often is compromised by the way Hollywood produces these movies and when people fall in love with i. e. 'Gladiator' or 'He's a Pirate', it will be copied to the hilt and nobody in the general audience actually complains about how derivative scores have become (outside of film music circles).

[Will 2,215]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

What!  That's the best music yet! 

 

To each his own, I guess.

 

But I think the second cue from the sessions video, the "call sign" clip music, the "trust goes both ways" music, etc. were better. 

[Jay 37,369]

My phone autocorrected without me realizing it..... My fixed post is now above.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

So... much... trumpet... triplets...

[Will 2,215]

@publicist, so are you saying that studios "err on the side of caution" by spending lots of money on the score, even though it's unclear whether they'd actually lose much money in the short or long term if they spent way less? 

 

It still feels like a waste of money -- I mean, if for Rogue One they tracked in old Williams music rather than having an original score done and put the "Music by John Williams" credit in the film ... some would probably be happier! (Seems like half the fans are clamoring to hear Duel of the Fates again right now!) Some film score fans would be sad. And most people probably wouldn't notice, since if the tracking was done well everything would blend together nicely -- it would only be the general aesthetic that mattered. For action scenes where tracking would result in a total mess, they could hire a young composer on the cheap to compose little bits to fill in gaps. They could use their mock-ups in the final film and sound effects would cover up the fact that it wasn't a real orchestra. 

 

They could probably still sell an OST as well, since many fans would want to hear the exact sequence of tracked Williams music that accompanied their favorite scenes (just think of all the people clamoring for the Ways of the Force film version with the Burning Homestead tracking!) 

 

I believe that Kubrick's films have served as examples of how reusing old music can be very successful. 

 

I am not complaining about us getting original orchestral scores, of course!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

56 minutes ago, Will said:

 @publicist

I believe that Kubrick's films have served as examples of how reusing old music can be very successful. 

 

Very few films will accept that approach, and very few directors have the sensibility to do it well.

 

There's simply no reason to not invest in original scores.  This is Hollywood.  They make movies.  Not really seeing where the confusion could possibly come from.