Star Wars Disenchantment

[rough cut 1,714]

Wow that sucked.

 

Music was bad too.

[Tallguy 3,402]

Gotta say the animated to live action cut of Ahsoka was pretty cool.

 

But Disney is now officially done paying John Williams when they don't have to.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

41 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

...Disney is now officially done paying John Williams when they don't have to.

 

I'm sure he'll get over it 😉

[Demodex 557]

[Tallguy 3,402]

51 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

I'm sure he'll get over it 😉

 

He will. We won't.

[Groovygoth666 672]

On 01/05/2023 at 10:41 AM, Brónach said:

 

yes

Have you watched it and if so is it any good? (Tend to stick to Universal Century mostly and haven't heard anything about this series)

[Brónach 1,302]

 

7 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Have you watched it and if so is it any good? (Tend to stick to Universal Century mostly and haven't heard anything about this series)

 

i've only seen the first season.  it's good so far. it's a bit uneven though. it's basically an eccentric mashup of Gundam things with Revolutionary Girl Utena (?!?) with Code Geass with The Tempest with typical cyberpunk corporate bs and so on.

[Groovygoth666 672]

17 hours ago, Brónach said:

 

 

i've only seen the first season.  it's good so far. it's a bit uneven though. it's basically an eccentric mashup of Gundam things with Revolutionary Girl Utena (?!?) with Code Geass with The Tempest with typical cyberpunk corporate bs and so on.

Of those series I've seen Code Geass. Watched (a possibly fan made) trailer for Revolutionary Girl Utena just now and that looks really interesting, especially for animation! Personally think 90's anime was the peak in terms of animation, once things went digital in the 2000's so much detail and style were lost. Is The Tempest an anime or the Shakespeare play? 

 

Might check it out after watching Revolutionary Girl Utena, as Witch of Mercury sounds like a bit of a more interesting mix.

 

Have you watched many of the Gundam shows?

 

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

The opening of The Last Jedi is so epic! Too bad it goes downhill from there. And I'm not sure I like the "can't hear you" prank.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The opening of The Last Jedi is so epic! Too bad it goes downhill from there. And I'm not sure I like the "can't hear you" prank.

 

The opening battle is about the only part of that movie I like. And I think the "I can't quite hear you prank" is actually sort of funny.  Well, I laughed anyway. But otherwise, you're quite right, it takes a most unfortunate downturn the second we get to Ach-To.

 

That final shot in Force Awakens was almost iconic, and set up incredible anticipation for what was going to happen next between Luke & Rey. What has Luke been up to? Who are Rey's parents? How will they join forces and fight the First Order? What will Luke's reunion with Han & Leia be like?

 

And then...nothing. Blue breast milk and, well, that’s pretty much it. I think maybe Rey force lifts some rocks. It's really quite impressive, what Rian Johnson was able to pull off. It takes a special kind of skill to create so much disappointment from such high expectations. To take a fan base that was generally pleased with TFA, and relatively united in their excitement for the return of Star Wars...and leave it utterly and bitterly divided, and, well, disenchanted. Not to mention damaging the franchise in a way that it still hasn't recovered from, and likely never will.

[HunterTech 994]

A fan base so broken that the same damn discussion is had basically every few months from the day TLJ released. Perhaps that's more a result of Disney and LF falling victim to the same issues with every new attempt to prolong the franchise, but perhaps it might be more productive for one to watch the Benoit Blanc movies so that this isn't your only impression of a man with a generally solid filmography.

 

I might be more inclined to revisit the movie if I didn't think so much about the reactionary industry it single handedly funded afterwards. I'm still surprised some blog doesn't exist about how it actually is the worst movie in all of cinema and that every bad movie it looks for doesn't compare.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

This is the Star Wars disenchantment thread.

 

What were you expecting…enchantment?

[Mr. Hooper 1,805]

38 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

That final shot in Force Awakens was almost iconic, and set up incredible anticipation for what was going to happen next between Luke & Rey.

In a single shot, Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder like a dolt was the beginning of the end, and I'd pay money to see a montage of reaction shots of fans in the theatres seeing it for the first time. Oh, the horror.

 

"Subverting expectations" are two words I hate to hear together now thanks to Rian's toying with Star Wars.

 

 

 

[HunterTech 994]

54 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

This is the Star Wars disenchantment thread.

 

What were you expecting…enchantment?

 

When there's no Mattris around to play, I forget this spot even exists 

 

With how much other threads get hijacked by SW talk, maybe it's about time someone diverted this thread in a different manner

[A. A. Ron 1,744]

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The opening of The Last Jedi is so epic!

 

Wait.... Really?

 

The only action scene I like in this movie is Luke vs Kylo at the end. I thought the beginning was boring as hell.

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

6 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

opening battle is about the only part of that movie I like. And I think the "I can't quite hear you prank" is actually sort of funny.  Well, I laughed anyway. But otherwise, you're quite right, it takes a most unfortunate downturn the second we get to Ach-To.

 

My problem is partially that it contrasts badly with the seriousness of Rose's sister's death.

[Giftheck 917]

6 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I might be more inclined to revisit the movie if I didn't think so much about the reactionary industry it single handedly funded afterwards. I'm still surprised some blog doesn't exist about how it actually is the worst movie in all of cinema and that every bad movie it looks for doesn't compare.

 

There most likely is, TBH.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

My problem is partially that it contrasts badly with the seriousness of Rose's sister's death.

Yeah that scene was the bomb.

[Brónach 1,302]

"THE RISE OF SKYWALKER" is the best fucking thing, since bread came sliced.

[Chen G. 3,951]

While on the subject, a followup on Chen's continuing lookout for Lucas' sources:

 

Quote

That really comes from a traditional in mythological storytelling - fairytales - of the hero finding an old creature on the side of the road that seems very insignificant and not very important, who comes out to be the master wizard, the master thing or, the guide, the main guide of the movie for the hero. And so I wanted him to be a little insignificant character, something that...like a frog, or something that you just didn't pay any attention to, and he turns out to be the most powerful Jedi in the universe. And so that was why he started out being very small and green, and then we wanted to make him attractive but strange and...so, he's actually got proportions very much like a baby.

 

Bruno Bettelheim, October 1981: 

 

Quote

There is good reason that Yoda appears in George Lucas's film: he is but a reincarnation of the teddy bear of infancy, to which we turn for solace; and the Yedi Knight is the wise old man, or the helpful animal, of the fairy tale, the promise from our distant past that we shall be able to rise to meet the most difficult tasks life can present Us with.

 

Also Bruno Bettelheim, 1976, in a passage quoted verbatim in Lucas' notes circa April 1978:

 

Quote

“A repulsive, threatening figure can magically change into a most helpful friend.”

 

Also, from before Lucas knew of Bettelheim's existence (December 1975), he already had R2D2 (January 1975) then Old Ben (circa April 1975) and indeed Luke himself (August) all embody this (really very banal) "fairytale" lesson of "Don't judge a book by its cover." A lesson also repeated later in the Ewoks (both in Return of the Jedi, but also the Ewok films, surely inspired by Bettelheim's teddybear remark) and in Jar Jar and the Gungans.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

35 minutes ago, Brónach said:

"THE RISE OF SKYWALKER" is the best fucking thing, since bread came sliced.

 

This is a common misconception. Bread doesn't come sliced. People have to slice it. 

 

In the future, robots will perform this task.

[Brónach 1,302]

8 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

In a single shot, Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder like a dolt was the beginning of the end, and I'd pay money to see a montage of reaction shots of fans in the theatres seeing it for the first time. Oh, the horror.

 

i actually don't understand why this shot creates such an emotional reaction in people. are they expecting luke to start crying or something, what ARE the expectations in the first place?

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

18 minutes ago, Brónach said:

 

i actually don't understand why this shot creates such an emotional reaction in people. are they expecting luke to start crying or something, what ARE the expectations in the first place?

 

I was personally hoping he'd ignite it, shove the blade into the first stone he could find, and say that only a worthy Jedi can retrieve it.

 

Then sit back and watch calamity ensue.

[Brónach 1,302]

well it's a lightsaber so that's really easy

[Demodex 557]

I loved The Last Jedi.  It's TROS that was a real disappointment.  

[mstrox 6,651]

My disenchantment take is that I agree with the post above me, but my main disappointment in TROS was just being let-down after I thought TFA and TLJ were so strong.  All Star Wars disappointment is absolutely minor compared to the prequels and it’s to Disney’s credit that they even got me interested in Star Wars movies at all again after those three pieces of absolute garbage.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

8 hours ago, HunterTech said:

 

When there's no Mattris around to play, I forget this spot even exists 

 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

7 hours ago, HunterTech said:

 

When there's no Mattris around to play, I forget this spot even exists 

 

Aw, man.  I was saving this image for December, and now it's not relevant anymore:

 

 

Oh, well.  I'm not really sure who I would've put over the other four characters anyway.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

22 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

 

 

Is this AI?

 

It's virtually seamless. Whoever...or whatever, did this is an artiste'. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

1 minute ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Is this AI?

 

Nope, I did it by hand.  Just a simple, low-effort meme post using a transparent background C-3PO image.  An AI would've tried to make it look "cleaner", with much, much worse results.

[Giftheck 917]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

I was personally hoping he'd ignite it, shove the blade into the first stone he could find, and say that only a worthy Jedi can retrieve it.

 

Then sit back and watch calamity ensue.

 

"Whosoever wields this lightsaber, shall they be worthy, will possess the power of Skywalker."

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

I loved The Last Jedi.  It's TROS that was a real disappointment.  

I have my misgivings with TLJ, but I am overall okay with the idea of a disillusioned Luke though. It was quite clear he had not done what Yoda had instructed him to do (and Yoda reminds him later) and had fallen into the same trap as a consequence.

 

The only reason I watch TROS, though, is to see Ian McDiarmid chew the scenery. If he wasn't in it, it wouldn't be worth watching.

[Mr. Hooper 1,805]

There's "disillusionment," and then there's Luke acting completely out of character...

 

We go from an optimistic guy who wouldn't fight his father (until his sister was threatened) because he believed he was redeemable, to one ready to kill his nephew—in his sleep, no less—because of some vague premonition he had.

 

As Mark Hamill said: "He's not my Luke Skywalker. Maybe he's "Jake Skywalker"?"

 

As for Luke tossing the lightsaber, the dramatic buildup of The Force Awakens was defused for a cheap laugh... Ha.

 

There's "subverting expectations," then there's thumbing your nose at them because you think you're cleverer than everyone else.

 

 

 

[Giftheck 917]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

There's "disillusionment," and then there's Luke acting completely out of character...

 

We go from an optimistic guy who wouldn't fight his father (until his sister was threatened) because he believed he was redeemable, to one ready to kill his nephew—in his sleep, no less—because of some vague premonition he had.

 

As Mark Hamill said: "He's not my Luke Skywalker. Maybe he's "Jake Skywalker"?"

 

As for Luke tossing the lightsaber, the dramatic buildup of The Force Awakens was defused for a cheap laugh... Ha.

 

There's "subverting expectations," then there's thumbing your nose at them because you think you're cleverer than everyone else.

 

 

 

 

If you're going to mention that, it should also be acknowledged that Mark Hamill has also admitted he was wrong about it, having seen the finished film. His stance appears to have not changed either - long after the Sequels have been completed and you've had Oscar Isaac and John Boyega state just how poor their experiences on the films were.

 

I'm not defending the execution, by the way. If they wanted Luke to be disillusioned there were far better ways of pulling it off and revealing it than the 'chuck the lightsaber over the shoulder' gag, which I will agree was very cheap, especially since it goes right off the ending of The Force Awakens. In any case they had to have some sort of explanation for his absence. Whether that was a fundamental flaw of the Sequels to begin with, I will leave up for discussion.

 

I should also mention Lucas was also alleged to have had a disillusioned Luke in his Sequel Trilogy. What shape that would have taken, how it would have unfolded, we'll likely never know.

[Gabriel Bezerra 303]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

to one ready to kill his nephew—in his sleep, no less—because of some vague premonition he had.

I never got this, as Luke tells Rey he basically just ignited by instinct, and that 0.2 seconds were enough for Ben to spiral

[Chen G. 3,951]

54 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

If they wanted Luke to be disillusioned there were far better ways of pulling it off and revealing it than the 'chuck the lightsaber over the shoulder' gag, which I will agree was very cheap, especially since it goes right off the ending of The Force Awakens.

 

Its funny: if Luke had dropped the sabre at his feet, rather than behind his back, the effect would have been totally different, and much more appropriate.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

6 hours ago, Giftheck said:

f you're going to mention that, it should also be acknowledged that Mark Hamill has also admitted he was wrong about it, having seen the finished film. 

 

Yeah, sorry but I just don't buy this (does anyone?) I think his initial, unscripted reaction was the honest one (they usually are). IMO later he's just following the studio line and being a team player...like most actors do when they're in a film they don't like.

 

What made Hamill's initial comments so startling (and refreshing) was how unusual it was for an actor to speak so frankly, so soon, about a film they're in.  

 

That said, I do agree that the problem wasn't a disillusioned Luke, but rather the execution.

[Mr. Hooper 1,805]

4 hours ago, Giftheck said:

If they wanted Luke to be disillusioned there were far better ways of pulling it off

That's it. I'm not one of those fans who needed Luke to be perfect and an unshakable pillar of Jedi virtue. Go ahead and give him a new arc with self-doubt or whatever to overcome. But what Rian cooked up I just couldn't swallow. I couldn't buy Luke's motivation, and I couldn't imagine him selfishly abandoning Leia and the others through self-exile to drink milk from a tit.

 

But explaining such an extreme shift in character is not an easy thing to pull off... Lucas took his precious time to show Anakin's shift to the Dark Side, and I still found it jarring and not quite believable when he suddenly turned on Padmé—the one he was trying to save—at the end of Episode III.

 

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Yeah, sorry but I just don't buy this (does anyone?) I think his initial, unscripted reaction was the honest one (they usually are). IMO later he's just following the studio line and being a team player...like most actors do when they're in a film they don't like.

 

What made Hamill's initial comments so starting was how unusual it was for an actor to speak so frankly, so soon, about a film they're in.

100%

 

Just look at the YouTube video that compiled all the interview bits of Hamill voicing his true, unfiltered opinion, before Lucasfilm must've told him what Spielberg said to Shia LaBeouf when he criticized Crystal Skull: "There's a time to have an opinion, and there's a time to sell cars."

 

If Hamill hasn't said anything else since, it's probably because he knows his true feelings are well known to the fans. That, and he doesn't want to burn any bridges with Lucasfilm.

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its funny: if Luke had dropped the sabre at his feet, rather than behind his back, the effect would have been totally different, and much more appropriate.

 

Absolutely. It would have been a very dramatic moment, and much more respectful to the character.

[A. A. Ron 1,744]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its funny: if Luke had dropped the sabre at his feet, rather than behind his back, the effect would have been totally different, and much more appropriate.

I still think disillusioned Luke is a fundamental mistake, but I could at least accept this execution.

[Bespin 8,484]

I know I'm part of a minority who thinks that Luke's role in the last trilogy was perfect. Personally, I've never been very 'Team-Luke,' I've never considered him a hero (well, he's not MY hero!), but rather a useful pawn. In the last trilogy, he messed up so much, missing his attack against Ben Solo, that I understand why he wanted to isolate himself for a while! Then, his reaction towards Rey is spot on, he couldn't care less.

 

Then I think I had guessed before everyone else that the 'end' of the Skywalker saga implied the death of ALL the remaining Skywalkers. Anakin, being created by the Force itself, all his descendants had to return to the Force for the 'mission' to be completed. And well, they gave Luke a nice farewell scene.

 

Moreover, like Luke, I believe that creating a new Jedi Order is a bad idea—unless it is intended to establish a kind of monastery with monks engaging in agriculture or making cheese  . It would only create a new imbalance in the Force. Anyway, I wish them good luck with Rey Skywalker's new trilogy. The plot might end up being repetitive and predictable.

 

Spoiler

 

[Chen G. 3,951]

29 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

I still think disillusioned Luke is a fundamental mistake

 

I don't.

 

I mean, what did people expect? Rey to show up and Luke to just go "Oh yeah, lets go tear some Stormtrooper posteriors?" So undramatic. I think between Abrams and Johnson they gave Luke sufficient trauma and sense of culpability to make him be the way we see him in the film, and while some of the choices don't make sense when you REALLY sit down and think about Luke's character, in the heat of the moment they work.

 

I have many issues with this film. The handling of Luke - Johnson's kooky humour notwithstanding - is by and large not one of them.

[Faleel 5,363]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its funny: if Luke had dropped the sabre at his feet, rather than behind his back, the effect would have been totally different, and much more appropriate.

[TolkienSS 407]

29 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I don't.

 

I mean, what did people expect? Rey to show up and Luke to just go "Oh yeah, lets go tear some Stormtrooper posteriors?" So undramatic. 

 

How about Luke laying a series of puzzles and mysteries and trials leading to him, that only the real heir to Skywalker would pass?

 

And that took me two seconds to come up with instead of a contrieved bullshit plot intended to revise Luke's impact in Star Wars.

[Mr. Hooper 1,805]

41 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I think between Abrams and Johnson they gave Luke sufficient trauma and sense of culpability to make him be the way we see him in the film, and while some of the choices don't make sense when you REALLY sit down and think about Luke's character, in the heat of the moment they work.

I'd argue that Luke choosing to kill his nephew in cold blood has to make sense for the rest to. The motivation's just weak, and again, it's totally out of character. I was left wondering what happened since Episode VI that could've led him to draw his lightsaber on Ben in that savage way.

 

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

Moreover, like Luke, I believe that creating a new Jedi Order is a bad idea—unless it is intended to establish a kind of monastery with monks engaging in agriculture or making cheese 

 

Then the Sith rise again, and the Jedi drop their hoes and get the dusty lightsabers out from behind a loose stone in the monastery wall...

 

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

Anyway, I wish them good luck with Rey Skywalker's new trilogy. The plot might end up being repetitive and predictable.

Maybe there are no real "new" stories to tell. It's already become repetitive and predictable. Maybe the saga of the Skywalkers is all that "Star Wars" could and should be.

[Faleel 5,363]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I'd argue that Luke choosing to kill his nephew in cold blood has to make sense for the rest to. The motivation's just weak, and again, it's totally out of character. I was left wondering what happened since Episode VI that could've led him to draw his lightsaber on Ben in that savage way.

 

Being possessed isn't enough?

[mrbellamy 6,296]

It's the debate that will never end lol but I always liked that Luke chooses not to kill his nephew in cold blood despite what he might do, while Ben commits a massacre because of what Luke might have done. 

[Bespin 8,484]

47 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Then the Sith rise again.

 

The Sith doesn't exist anymore.

 

Did you watch the same movies as me? 

[Groovygoth666 672]

10 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

The Sith doesn't exist anymore.

 

Did you watch the same movies as me? 

[Bespin 8,484]

Zero now they are. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,805]

33 minutes ago, Presto said:

Being possessed isn't enough?

 

I could understand him giving in to fear-anger-aggression when Vader threatened his sister, maybe also because he was a young Jedi...but thought he would've mastered his feelings and the Force enough since then to not let himself become possessed like that again—especially with his nephew, which wasn't the same as Vader, who was already a bad dude. Maybe his Jedi training let him down there. But yeah, "possessed" is the word, and I guess will have to suffice as an explanation.

 

1 minute ago, Bespin said:

 

The Sith doesn't exist anymore.

 

Did you watch the same movies as me? 

 

This is Disney Star Wars, in which the Sith "somehow returned"!!

 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

3 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

The Sith doesn't exist anymore.

 

Did you watch the same movies as me? 

 

It's incredibly naive to believe that good guys/protectors need to stop existing just because evil was defeated one time.

 

All that means is that evil will come up again with nobody to fight it off.