motelseti35 1 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I would rank John Williams among my favourite composers of all time, film or otherwise. He has written more unforgettable melodies than any other composer I have heard, and I was recently playing the Harry Potter theme, when I noticed that the first 16 Bars contain every note of the chromatic scale. He writes melodies like no other (in my opinion) and I guess the question is, how does he do it? And can I learn to Mobdro write truly great melodies (if so how), or is it something that cannot be learnt? VidMate Hristo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,515 Posted November 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 . KK, Marc, GerateWohl and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 I don't know. He just... does it. 🤷♂️ Hristo, Loert and Kasey Kockroach 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GerateWohl 4,383 Posted November 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 Maybe to that a quote from John Williams himself from an interview where he was asked where he takes the ideas from to write hundreds of hours of movie music: Writing a tune is like sculpturing. You get four or five notes, you take one out and move one around, and you do a bit more and eventually as the sculpturor says "In that rock there is a statue, we have to go find it." There's a story that says it all. Paul Hindemith, the brillant German composer, was offered the chair at Yale University as Professor of Composition. He turned it down. Then they offered him the chair as Professor of Music Theory, which he took. So they asked him why, and he said: "I can teach music theory. But only God teaches composition." Fabulin, Hristo, Marc and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,556 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 How does he do it? A lot of hard work, training, and then more hard work, honing his craft. Look upon him as an author, who "writes" with music, instead of words. I regard JW as fucking good, at his job, and that's why he is where he is, today. Hristo and Bayesian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,515 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Talent + hard work. On 03/11/2020 at 5:12 AM, motelseti35 said: And can I learn to write truly great melodies (if so how), or is it something that cannot be learnt? The only way to find out is by trying to write melodies. Studying other music + reading books on music theory helps, but only to an extent. It's just like anything else really - you can't become an Olympic runner just from watching other runners + reading books on running technique (though they help). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,915 Posted November 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 To add to what Loert said: Talent + hard work + craftsmanship + experience. He's been doing this a very long time. He kind of knows what's going to work without struggling with the notes anymore. The craftsmanship comes in the form of he's just really good at developing an idea. He says he came up with hundreds of ideas for the 5 note CEOTTK hello melody and they kept coming back to the one used in the film. With good craftsmanship, the odds are pretty good any of those other ones could been used too, he would have developed them appropriately and dramatically...he knew what he needs to do to those notes to make them most effective. Hristo, SteveMc, Loert and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,383 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, Loert said: Talent + hard work. + good education + taste Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: + good education + taste + genes His father was a musician, all his brothers, grandfather, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Above all else I'd say it is pure natural talent. Look how far Danny Elfman got without all the other prerequisites. Williams is just a very gifted melodist on some sort of innate tribal level. Technical explanations can only account for a small percentage of that kind of natural ability. We could have the same conversation about the likes of Elton John and Andrew Lloyd Webber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,642 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 He eats a heaping bowl of awesomesauce every morning!! Smeltington and Jurassic Shark 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,383 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 45 minutes ago, karelm said: + genes His father was a musician, all his brothers, grandfather, etc. Thank you. Now I have an excuse. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Not Mr. Big 4,642 Posted November 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 It's his epic SWAG BAG!!!!1 crlbrg, Giftheck and SteveMc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,529 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 It's like those eternal questions posed by fans in Q&As....i.e. "what inspires you"? I always found that a bit annoying, but I guess it's even moreso for the artist in question, as there is no real answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,094 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thor said: It's like those eternal questions posed by fans in Q&As....i.e. "what inspires you"? Well, we do know JW as a ladies' man, and who inspired him to write Rey's theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,556 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,094 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 3 hours ago, GerateWohl said: + good education + taste + William Ross crlbrg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,211 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 3 hours ago, karelm said: + genes His father was a musician, all his brothers, grandfather, etc. But is that genes or social upbringing? Anyway: Quote How Does John Williams Do It? With great skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,094 Posted November 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2020 He writes hundreds of versions of a theme and then asks Steven to pick out the best. So Steven's the real genius here. michael_grig, Smeltington and GerateWohl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Respect for his craft, his significant predecessors, and good taste. All 3 of which modern film composers lack. Just look at Giacchino, Mr. "Joker is an all time great", or Hans Zimmer, Mr. Happy Jolly "orchestras don't need conductors". Jurassic Shark and JTN 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 Talent, opportunity, and insane work ethic - plus staff paper, a mechanical pencil, and a piano. It is possible to learn a great deal from studying his work and his methods, but ultimately, if just anyone could learn to write like Williams, a lot more people would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 On 11/3/2020 at 8:05 AM, Quintus said: Look how far Danny Elfman got without all the other prerequisites. Williams is just a very gifted melodist on some sort of innate tribal level. Technical explanations can only account for a small percentage of that kind of natural ability. We could have the same conversation about the likes of Elton John and Andrew Lloyd Webber. Not really. Elfman isn't a great example because he requires an extensive team of producers and talented orchestrators. Scott Smalley showed the before and after of what he got on Mission Impossible 1 and what he produced. They're completely different. I've proof read the before and after from JW and Conrad Pope. Your comparison is poor and I'll bet the first person to agree with me is Elfman. JW cannot honestly be put in the same category. He even goes into this in his masterclass. I do grant that Elfman is talented and very good at what he does but you must acknowledge he has a huge debt to his team and it's just silly to equate him to JW. Elfman is great at knowing how to leverage his team to supplement his weaknesses to deliver his unique and creative vision. That is fine, but not the same level of talent. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,515 Posted November 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2020 22 minutes ago, karelm said: Not really. Elfman isn't a great example because he requires an extensive team of producers and talented orchestrators. Scott Smalley showed the before and after of what he got on Mission Impossible 1 and what he produced. They're completely different. I've proof read the before and after from JW and Conrad Pope. Your comparison is poor and I'll bet the first person to agree with me is Elfman. JW cannot honestly be put in the same category. He even goes into this in his masterclass. I do grant that Elfman is talented and very good at what he does but you must acknowledge he has a huge debt to his team and it's just silly to equate him to JW. Elfman is great at knowing how to leverage his team to supplement his weaknesses to deliver his unique and creative vision. That is fine, but not the same level of talent. That may be the case now, but at the very least in his Batman score, he seems to have really composed the music... [here: a quote from a letter written by Danny Elfman in 1990] Quote (...) On Batman, as on many films, there was a team effort to pull it all together on time, and I'm fortunate to have very talented people on my team. Yes, my orchestrator, Steve Bartek, is very gifted, and did a great job, as did my conductor, Shirley Walker, and the music editor, Bob Badami. Their help was invaluable to me, especially on a difficult job like Batman. Whether I achieved good, bad, or mediocre results with the music is not the issue here. As with any art, that's a subjective point which will always be up for lively debate and scrutiny. But, having worked my ass off for 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week, for a month and a half to write that score and yes, you dumb fuck, I actually wrote it down-I will not sit back passively and allow myself to be discredited for the work I did by an idiot who mistakenly thinks that I lazily hire people to do it for me, or that only a conservatory can produce a real film composer. I am self-taught, and although that's not something I'm proud of, neither am I ashamed of it. While you, Mr. Rubenstein are incorrect in stating that I studied with Christopher Young or anyone else, you are absolutely presumptuous in assuming that Mr. Bartek and Ms. Walker are conservatory-trained. In fact, Mr. Bartek never attended a conservatory, and Ms. Walker, who in addition to being a great conductor and orchestrator is a fine composer in her own right, never finished college, and considers herself to be primarily self-taught as well. Furthermore, and more to the point, composers, like writers, painters, or film directors, are able to create their art from their instincts, their into ition-their "soul," for lack of a better word something that has never been easily taught. Imagination, our most valuable tool, is not, unfortunately, conferred by a degree. A musical education, although I never had one, is something for which I have great respect. It can, I'm sure, be a wonderful thing, and provide all kinds of invaluable tools with which to work. It is not, however, the only way to acquire tools, or to learn. I would guess that it wouldn't surprise you terribly to find out that a respected author may not have had six years of formal English literature, but learned by doing-that is, by sit ting down at a typewriter and writing, day after day. Certainly, you must be aware that there are many film directors -Batman's Tim Burton, for one example -who never attended any film school. Why, then, is it so hard to accept the possibility that someone who works hard can learn to write film music from hands-on experience? In the past five years, I've had the good fortune of being able to write, and have performed, more than 600 minutes of orchestra music. This probably involved writing some where in the neighborhood of 20,000 bars of music. I know I'm not the greatest film composer in the land--something that I couldn't care less about--and I'm more than aware of my many shortcomings. But after all this, I have learned just a few little things --perhaps even a thing or two not taught in your illustrious music class. I will admit to getting tongue twisted and saying some pretty incomprehensible things more than once in my Keyboard interview. But I feel that my work, of which I'm proud, speaks for me much better than I can. (...) http://oingoboingouk.tripod.com/openletter.html Of course he is not JW level, but at the very least in 1989, putting more effort than ever before or after, he wrote some great film music... Bayesian, karelm and JTN 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skelly 261 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 58 minutes ago, karelm said: Elfman isn't a great example because he requires an extensive team of producers and talented orchestrators. Scott Smalley showed the before and after of what he got on Mission Impossible 1 and what he produced. Is that something you can see online or was it from one of the seminars Smalley sometimes does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 6 hours ago, karelm said: Not really. Elfman isn't a great example because he requires an extensive team of producers and talented orchestrators. Scott Smalley showed the before and after of what he got on Mission Impossible 1 and what he produced. They're completely different. I've proof read the before and after from JW and Conrad Pope. Your comparison is poor and I'll bet the first person to agree with me is Elfman. JW cannot honestly be put in the same category. He even goes into this in his masterclass. I do grant that Elfman is talented and very good at what he does but you must acknowledge he has a huge debt to his team and it's just silly to equate him to JW. Elfman is great at knowing how to leverage his team to supplement his weaknesses to deliver his unique and creative vision. That is fine, but not the same level of talent. You seem to have completely misinterpreted my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,529 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 6 hours ago, karelm said: Not really. Elfman isn't a great example because he requires an extensive team of producers and talented orchestrators. The 80s called. They want you back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,094 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 On 11/3/2020 at 7:56 PM, Marian Schedenig said: But is that genes or social upbringing? His genes had a good upbringing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,378 Posted November 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2020 The main post of this thread is a copy and paste of this 5 year old reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36l371/how_does_john_williams_do_it/ Jurassic Shark, Fabulin and Holko 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 12 hours ago, Skelly said: Is that something you can see online or was it from one of the seminars Smalley sometimes does? It was from Smalley's seminar. He showed a before and after. They are nothing alike. One had a line with a "whoosh!" description and the finish version was an expertly crafted score with full orchestra. They were nothing alike. Anyway, it's not a big deal because I do think he's gifted, just not a good example for comparison of someone who succeeded without all those prerequisites. 1 hour ago, Jay said: The main post of this thread is a copy and paste of this 4 year old reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/36l371/how_does_john_williams_do_it/ What the!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,378 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 It's either the same person 5 years later deciding to ask the same question on a different place on the internet Or some kind of new bot that copies reddit posts and pastes them in to IPBoard forums that some algorithm tells them it would fit in I suspect the latter is the case, of course; Probably in a few days their post or "About Me" section of their profile (or both) will be edited to contain a spam link - that's how the new bots have been doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,094 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 I guess @bruce marshall is one of the old bots. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,378 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 The main poster was a bot after all, they've now inserted links into the text that was originally there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 39 minutes ago, Jay said: The main poster was a bot after all, they've now inserted links into the text that was originally there Wow, that's sophisticated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,378 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 It's been happening on this board pretty frequently lately. Usually I just delete them out, but they're also usually done as replies to existing thread s- in this case it would delete the entire thread were I to delete the spam account, and there was an actual conversation that developed from the spambot so I guess its worth keeping Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,094 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 On 03/11/2020 at 7:56 PM, Marian Schedenig said: How Does John Williams Do It? With pencil and paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pando 143 Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 On 03/11/2020 at 7:31 AM, karelm said: + genes His father was a musician, all his brothers, grandfather, etc. The music is strong in his family. His father had it, his grandfather had it, he has it, and his... brothers have it. karelm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,915 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 On 27/06/2022 at 12:41 PM, Pando said: The music is strong in his family. His father had it, his grandfather had it, he has it, and his... brothers have it. ...his son has it...his grandkids have it but they're all more in pop music. I believe they consider the surname to be a curse of sorts. There are many precedents for this. Richard Wagner's son, Sigfried struggled to find his voice without being compared to his far superior father. None of Russian/Ukranian composer Prokofiev's children were composers but his grandson is Gabriel Prokofiev (b. 1975) who is also a DJ and sound world has no connection to his grandfather's distinctive sound seeming to have abandoned expectation. None of Dmitri Shostakovich's children are composers though they're musicians of other disciplines (conducting or pianist) however his grandson (Dmitri Jr) might be...I once heard he was studying composition but nothing original of his has surfaced other than a Chandos album where he performs the piano concerto his father premiered. It seems like when someone has achieved genius level talent, the talent ends with them. Einstein had children and none of them were exceptionally bright. It seems they collapse under expectation until they abandon their legacy and surname (like Nicholas Cage changing his surname from Coppola). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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