Ridley Scott's NAPOLEON (Martin Phipps, 2023)

[Bespin 8,487]

56 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

So, let's say Amadeus, which isn't historically accurate, is a bad film?

 

In fact, the way I see Amadeus is that it's a portrait of Mozart... through the eyes of Antonio Salieri, a fellow composer and contemporary of Mozart who becomes consumed by jealousy over Mozart's extraordinary talent. It's like a caricature.

[Jurassic Shark 12,106]

52 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

So, let's say Amadeus, which isn't historically accurate, is a bad film?

 

That's not a historical epic. It's based on a fiction play with a historical setting. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

2 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Historical accuracy is maybe the least important thing in a historical epic.  If I wanted historical accuracy I'd read a textbook

 

In general, I agree. I wouldn't say it's the least important thing, but complete accuracy is certainly not crucial to making an entertaining and authentic historical epic.

 

And let's be real. There's never been a single historical epic that was 100% accurate. So we're just talking about a sliding scale of accuracy here. Even ones that strive to be accurate take liberties for the sake of the story. They have to. 

 

The historical epic is my favourite genre in film, I wish they made more of them. Would I prefer they be as accurate as possible? Sure. But that said, my personal standard is that the film feels authentic and more or less gets the broad strokes right. I don't get worked up if the movie doesn't nail every fact.

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,964]

I mean, Gladiator is stretching historical accuracy so far its basically historical fiction.

 

But damned if it doesn't just suck you into the world of ancient Rome! For almost three hours, you're not just an onlooker: you take part.

[Edmilson 7,491]

Just saw the clip on the last page. It's well shot and directed, but regarding Phipps' score, I have a feeling that it'll be buried beneath sound effects. 

[A24 4,351]

8 hours ago, Edmilson said:

It's well shot and directed, but regarding Phipps' score, I have a feeling that it'll be buried beneath sound effects. 

 

To let the score compete with the sound effects is often a directorial decision. 

[JNHFan2000 2,971]

Jon Broxton posted about this score (and a few other) some days ago.

 

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02Gft1AoGWCTx2mwceZkMPKjoZov9M1pgxg1f7oYWqScVCfPY4PjvdK2TVeKLEwKTLl&id=594746804

 

Spoiler

Holly and I went to a concert at UCLA last night organized by the industry magazine Deadline where several composers and songwriters showcased songs and scores that are being pushed for the upcoming Oscars. It was a really excellent concert with a wide variety of styles and genres. From the score side they performed suites from Barbie (Mark Ronson and Andrew Wyatt), Killers of the Flower Moon (Robbie Robertson, conducted by Mark Graham), Creed III (Joseph Shirley), Saltburn (Anthony Willis), American Fiction (Laura Karpman), Society of the Snow (Michael Giacchino), Napoleon (Martin Phipps), and The Peasants (Lukasz Rostkowski).

 

Saltburn was really good, very classical, very English, and reminded me very much of classic George Fenton in places, with lots of slow elegant strings. American Fiction had some really creative writing for jazz flute, and lots of stylistic references to Theolonious Monk; jazz lovers will REALLY love it. Society of the Snow was slow, reverent, emotional, and heavy on the strings, with gorgeous ethnic vocal work, classical guitar, and ethnic woodwinds - if the film is a success this is a real contender.

 

Napoleon was very classical, very French inspired as one might expect, with lots of waltzes and period instruments. The theme for Napoleon has a really dramatic weight to it, and the action music is intense, heraldic horns, tumultuous drums. However, The Peasants - which is an animated film, Poland's foreign language film entry - brought the house down. It's a huge celebratory dance of Slavic folk music, raucous, joyful, but also really well-done orchestrally, some really creative and challenging stuff for solo violin. At one point they brought out a troupe of folk dancers to dance in the aisles to the music, which everyone loved.

 

Ronson and Wyatt performed "I'm Just Ken" from Barbie, which everyone loved and is absolutely getting nominated. Diane Warren performed two songs, one from the movie Flamin Hot and one from 80 for Brady, the latter of which had an all-star lineup of vocalists including Dolly Parton, Belinda Carlisle, Cyndi Lauper, and Gloria Estefan (they were not there, but their performances were shown on video). Damian Kulash from OK Go performed an original song from The Beanie Bubble, plus some of the score he wrote with Nathan Barr, and Gary Clark from the band Danny Wilson performed his original songs from Flora & Son which stars Eve Hewson, the daughter of Bono from U2.

 

Unfortunately we got caught in awful traffic prior to the concert so we missed the reception entirely, which meant I didn't get to talk to many of the people I wanted to (I especially wanted to tell Gary Clark how obsessed I was with his song "Mary's Prayer" back in the day!), but I was able to say quick hellos to Brianne-Adette Bogle, Thomas Mikusz, and Robert Townson, and have a very quick chat with Martin Phipps. Anthony Willis, I was especially disappointed we didn't get to chat - your Saltburn suite was excellent!

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

Too many fantastic bits of info to mention here, but Deadline has an absolutely phenomenal interview with Ridley Scott, covering everything from Napoleon to Gladiator 2 to Kingdom of Heaven to Blade Runner to Kubrick, Cameron, Goldsmith & Alien, and that's just scratching the surface. Guy does not hold anything back and I have an amazing amount of respect for him.

 

Not a puff piece. Well worth the read. 

 

 

[thestat 352]

Is Broxton a source, after that Balfe-fest? I don't read his work anymore as it's basically corporate PR excusing violators of creative sanctity like balfe to appear okay?

Just to say. I used to love Broxton's work. Am a bit sceptical nowadays.

[A24 4,351]

9 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Too many fantastic bits of info to mention here, but Deadline has an absolutely phenomenal interview with Ridley Scott, covering everything from Napoleon to Gladiator 2 to Kingdom of Heaven to Blade Runner to Kubrick, Cameron, Goldsmith & Alien, and that's just scratching the surface. Guy does not hold anything back and I have an amazing amount of respect for him.

 

Not a puff piece. Well worth the read. 

 

 

 

Clearly the interviewer never heard of Brigitte Bardot.

 

 

Quote

 

DEADLINE: Joaquin played your villain in Gladiator, and then he went on to win an Oscar playing Joker. What made you see him as your Napoleon?

 

SCOTT: I’m going to correct you. I saw him as the most sympathetic character of all, in Gladiator. He was a product of neglect, total neglect of a father that he adored. Then finally in the film, the father would say, I’m going to neglect you even further. You will not be the prince of Rome. And then the father realizes in his old age that he needs some form of absolute. So he does something fatal. He kneels before the boy asking for forgiveness. That was fatal because the boy has never seen his father ask for that kind of close discussion. So he suffocates him. So from that moment on, I thought Joaquin was the most sympathetic person during the movie. What he did and what followed, what came out of it, the nature of it had been created by his father.

 

DEADLINE: I’m going to have to watch that movie again…

 

SCOTT: You f*cking well better. 

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

Scott has reached the no fucks given stage of his career. Not that he ever gave many in the first place. Love it. My most anticipated film of the year.

 

His answer on why he's making Gladiator 2 (paraphrased): "For the money, of course".

 

[Knight of Ren 789]

As we all know, Ridley Scott loves to butcher the scores for his movies and apparently, he has done it again, according to this Indiewire review:

Quote

...making his Napoleon a natural accompaniment to Martin Phipps’ free-reed score, which Scott often ditches in favor of repurposing the music that Dario Marianelli wrote for Joe Wright’s “Pride & Prejudice”

 

We know by now this is way of working, but I wonder how much of Phipp's music has been replaced in the final movie, and if this replacements will also remain in the 4-hour cut that will be released on Apple TV+.

[Richard Penna 3,704]

I respect Scott for the aspect of his musical treatment where he just keeps the temp track. (not so much for putting his composers through hell, though)

 

Sometimes a pre-existing piece of music just turns out to be perfect for a particular moment, and I think that's vastly preferable to asking the composer to clone the cue, deny them artistic freedom and also incur the wrath of soundtrack fans later on.

[JNHFan2000 2,971]

Samples below on itunes nz

 

Release tomorrow

 

https://music.apple.com/nz/album/napoleon-soundtrack-from-the-apple-original-film/1715501941

 

I love Waterloo Requiem. Great cue

[MedigoScan 325]

Heh, 40 minutes for 4 hours.

What is this the 70s?

[Richard Penna 3,704]

Had a quick listen to the samples, probably not my thing.

 

But I share the above observation. If the film is anywhere near traditionally scored then it means an absolute mountain of unreleased music. Or Scott's used an absolute ton of source music.

[A24 4,351]

The music isn't going to give us anything else but to confirm what we already see on the screen: Napoleon is engaged in battle, we hear battle music. Napoleon makes passionate love to Josephine, we hear romantic love music, and so on, and so on. So just forget about the music and just enjoy the movie.

[Not Mr. Big 4,644]

Samples sound interesting 

[thestat 352]

Yeah, Phipps was not hired to do a Balfe. His score for The Crown sis unusual, especially the Diana music, and I am sure Scott hired him on that basis.

 

Have a go at his War and Peace score for the BBC, totally not what you expect. This actually sounds relatively sensible but still strange, in the way that early Desplat for Hollywood sounded strange. Great to hear different music in a big production - when was the last time you heard something like this?

 

His stuff for War and Peace is....different but also amazing. He uses drones but not in the Bertelmann way of doing away with melody, for Phipps there is a constant melodic core to his work, even in the weirdest stuff he does, and he takes some massive risks in his music which is frankly fucking amazing. 

 

Listen to the end:

 

Napoleon seems very much a continuation of this work, and great work it is!

 

[Mephariel 451]

Just got done listening to this the first time. The score certainly surprised me. Parts of it are unsettling, almost psychological horror like. There is no large scale orchestra anywhere, and no action cues at all. Either Scott took out a bunch of music or he used a lot more existing music than I thought. The vocals are the most interesting part...although they are also a bit strange I would say. Reminds me a little of Arrival. 

[JTN 2,077]

3 hours ago, Mephariel said:

Just got done listening to this the first time. The score certainly surprised me. Parts of it are unsettling, almost psychological horror like. There is no large scale orchestra anywhere, and no action cues at all. Either Scott took out a bunch of music or he used a lot more existing music than I thought. The vocals are the most interesting part...although they are also a bit strange I would say. Reminds me a little of Arrival. 

Thanks, then it’s a big no no for me. 

[iamleyeti 114]

3 hours ago, Mephariel said:

Just got done listening to this the first time. The score certainly surprised me. Parts of it are unsettling, almost psychological horror like. There is no large scale orchestra anywhere, and no action cues at all. Either Scott took out a bunch of music or he used a lot more existing music than I thought. The vocals are the most interesting part...although they are also a bit strange I would say. Reminds me a little of Arrival.

100% agree <3

[Thor 7,546]

I like this!

It's not KINGDOM OF HEAVEN or anything; it's more "Napoleon on the prowl"-type moods. But always with sophistication from Phipps. Melody, interesting textures, nice use of chorus. I can see myself getting properly into this.

[Stark 317]

Wow, this is really good, and not a very common sound to work.

[filmmusic 1,844]

I liked the melodic stuff, but not the "action" cues..

[Edmilson 7,491]

Me too. The melodic parts are great, but overall this is very experimental and weird. It's well done, but not exactly the kind of music I'd like to hear. 

 

And parts of it reminded me of the Joker score. Was it Scott falling in love with the temp track again?

[iamleyeti 114]

I always am a bit sad when a composer works on a Ridley Scott or a Michael Mann movie, tho. They do their best and end up replaced by songs, temp track, or both

 

The music is actually pretty solid, love the electronic stuff. It's clearly an upped version of The Crown especially, but most of the work Phipps as done since 6-8 years. I like it a lot. 

[Romão 2,274]

I still haven't heard this score, but this remains one of my favorite musical depictions of the man:

 

 

[Stark 317]

7 hours ago, iamleyeti said:

I always am a bit sad when a composer works on a Ridley Scott or a Michael Mann movie, tho. They do their best and end up replaced by songs, temp track, or both

 

The music is actually pretty solid, love the electronic stuff. It's clearly an upped version of The Crown especially, but most of the work Phipps as done since 6-8 years. I like it a lot. 

At least Ridley’s scores usually get to be heard despite replacing some cues - with a Michael Mann movie there’s a 80% chance the score gets replaced by a new one!

[iamleyeti 114]

17 hours ago, Stark said:

At least Ridley’s scores usually get to be heard despite replacing some cues - with a Michael Mann movie there’s a 80% chance the score gets replaced by a new one!

Before being replaced again by another score

[A24 4,351]

[Edmilson 7,491]

Ridley Scott’s Napoleon through Thursday has grossed an estimated $21M worldwide. The Apple Original Films and Sony Pictures action epic is now eyeing a $70M-$73M five-day global opening, including $40M from the international box office. Should those numbers hold, this will be well ahead of pre-weekend projections.

 

https://deadline.com/2023/11/napoleon-wish-opening-weekend-global-international-box-office-1235637258/

[Thor 7,546]

Saw the film on Thursday, writing a review that I hope to publish early next week. It has issues, but Phipps' score is not one of them. Both that and the existing music were great in it.

[MedigoScan 325]

Any notable tracks that the soundtrack cruelly ignored?

[Thor 7,546]

I wrote a review of the film a couple of days ago. Here it is, as run through Google Translate, for anyone interested:

 

https://montages-no.translate.goog/2023/11/matte-overflater-i-ridley-scotts-napoleon/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true

 

The score is strong in the film, on album it's a bit more uneven. Love some parts (esp. how Phipps deconstructs certain period-specific tropes, and layers them with contemporary string harmonies), less enthused with the rather stale and generic action/war music.

[A24 4,351]

The all-knowing critics and the unenlightened audience are in agreement!

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

I generally ignore review "scores" on sites like Rotten Tomatoes. And bad reviews won't deter me from seeing a film I'm otherwise very interested in. And as a fan of historical epics, who wants to see more of them, I'll see this film no matter what.

 

But I do look for specific things when I read reviews, and some of what I'm reading about this film, and its portrayal of Napoleon in yet another tired (if not predictable) attempt at deconstructing a historical figure, has me concerned, and I'm preparing myself for likely disappointment.

 

[A24 4,351]

You rebel!

[Edmilson 7,491]

16 minutes ago, A24 said:

You rebel!

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

EDIT: Damn you @Edmilson! Beat me to it! 😂

 

Curse you! Curse you forever!!!!

 

44 minutes ago, A24 said:

You rebel!

 

So was Napoleon.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

I will pay this complement to the film - there are very few scores these days - almost none - where a few days after watching the film I can hum a theme from it. 

 

I had this experience with Napolean. The main theme is so peculiar, so unusual and so different that it stuck with me. I found myself thinking about it randomly today, 3-4 days after seeing the film. I heard some cues on the album and am now convinced that this is a memorable theme.

 

Besides Williams, only the second memorable theme in movies to me. The other is Finding Ruth in Barbie - also known to the world as What Was I Made For.

[JNHFan2000 2,971]

 

[Imperivm 147]

It was a pleasant surprise to find out that there is a FYC score for the film, around 50 minutes of music, most of which absent from the OST! You can find it here: 

 

 

I'd also love if anyone here could help making a chronological list of the two releases, possibly including also some of the source music.

[Bayesian 1,365]

I love this film. Seen it twice already in theaters and I'm front row center for the 4-hr director's cut when it hits Apple TV+ (and, please please please God, 4K blu-ray). The soundtrack has similarly impressed me -- Borodino is a goddamned masterpiece, for instance, and I hope Phipps gets recognized for his work by the Academy. I'm so happy this FYC exists!

 

What I've come to learn to appreciate about Phipps' approach to scoring this film (after my second viewing and, now, after listening to the FYC) is that he managed to create an epic sound that is truly different from the epic sound of Zimmer and his factory-farm clones. It's a considerably more intelligent sound, one that rewards close listening, one that has range and multivariate character. And it's an up-to-date sound -- you couldn't mistake it for any other decade than the present one. No pastiche (except perhaps the diagetic stuff). No overprocessed synth instruments or overpowering synth drums. And no one-trick-pony shtick like, say, Goransson and his violin that sounds like a cat being tortured.

 

[Stark 317]

I generally agree, but without the dissing of Zimmer and Ludwig!

[Jurassic Shark 12,106]

I agree, with the dissing of Zimmer and Göransson.

[JTN 2,077]

I saw the film yesterday. I liked it. A little too long, would’ve worked better as a 6-part miniseries. 
 

BUT. Hearing Dario Marianelli’s score to PRIDE AND PREJUDICE in several scenes really took me out of the picture. Others who aren’t

familiar with film music won’t even notice it and that makes it even worse because the filmmakers did it probably thinking no one’s going to notice it, let’s do it, who cares. 
Well I care. Dario Marianelli and Joe Wright should care. Other people with ears care. It’s a lousy, lazy, “cheap” and unnecessary trick that made me mad while watching the film. I’m sure Martin Phipps was perfectly capable of composing a piano piece that would suit that scene. Maybe he did. And Scott threw it out and put in a cue from another film. Not even a piece of Beethoven or Mozart or Bach. From another film score. And he did this kind of tampering back in 1979 with Alien and Goldsmith. Scott has no shame. Awful decision.

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

14 minutes ago, JTW said:

I saw the film yesterday.

 

Always find it interesting when reviews come in of films just made available from...alternate sources.

 

14 minutes ago, JTW said:

I liked it. A little too long, would’ve worked better as a 6-part miniseries. 

 

Will be interesting to see if Scott goes that direction for the 4+ hour cut, which is the one I'm waiting for.

[JTN 2,077]

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Always find it interesting when reviews come in of films just made available from...alternate sources.

?

 

 

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Will be interesting to see if Scott goes that direction for the 4+ hour cut, which is the one I'm waiting for.

I think that will be a much better cut, with much more emphasis on the Napoleon-Joséphine relationship.

[greenturnedblue 372]

12 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Always find it interesting when reviews come in of films just made available from...alternate sources.

 

Speak for yourself mate, I also saw it recently in theaters