Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom appreciation thread (film & score)

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Such a great film, with such a great score. Okay, the film may have untypical pacing, but that's part of its charm and uniqueness. When it fires, it fires on all cylinders. From the fantastic opening escape to the mine car chase and resolution on the bridge, it's pure fun.

 

I was thinking about perhaps the most implausible sequence - the falling raft - after reading some negative takes on it. And I have to say it's never bothered me. It's an exhilarating escape and I have no problem accepting the implausability of it, unlike the nuked fridge of Crystal Skull. 

 

[Holko 9,529]

I never understood the implausibility complaints - it's right there, caught on camera in one take!

[Andy 4,138]

If you’re preaching, I’m the choir. Kali Ma Shakti De. 
 

I fucking LOVE everything about this movie.  I love that it doesn’t try to be Raiders the way TLC does.   If you told me this is when Spielberg and Lucas were snorting a lot of coke, I’d believe you, because this movie is off the rails crazy and it just doesn’t care. 
 

Ford was at his peak here, both physically and coolness.  Short Round and Willie are us, the audience.  Shorty being the brave kid in us who would like to go on an adventure with Jones, Willie being the reality of how we’d actually react if we were there.  That’s why this dynamic never feels forced or bloated.  It’s a tight trio and we can identify with them. 
 

Happiest ending of any of them. Nice character arc for Jones, who starts off essentially as a bit of a Helena Shaw, seeking fortune and glory, but then coming around to understand the significance. He does indeed become a true believer. 
 

Love the contrast between the darkness of Pankot and the bright sunlight of the end act. The tension in the rope bridge scene… there’s just nothing like that in any of the other films. 

John Williams ended his era of perfection with this grand finale of musical fireworks. 

 

This movie is my happy place. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I was thinking about perhaps the most implausible sequence - the falling raft - after reading some negative takes on it. And I have to say it's never bothered me. It's an exhilarating escape and I have no problem accepting the implausability of it, unlike the nuked fridge of Crystal Skull. 

You can argue if this was more implausible than the jump of the lore or Indy stopping the lore just with his shue soles. But the scene with the falling raft came after we had a few years earlier that scene where Luke Skywalker falls into the abyss in Cloud City. And this was really comparably dumb.

 

This movie fell into Spieberg's early post E.T. phase were there always had to be these kids in his movies what I didn't like. And Willie is really annoying. Spielberg was in love.

 

Anyway, the movie was pleasantly different from the first one, the opening is the best of any Indy movie and the score is fantastic.

[Andy 4,138]

Parade of the Slave Children (Slave Children’s Crusade?) is perhaps the theme that best represents sweeping high adventure on an exotic global scale for the entire series. 
 

Anyone know why it has the two titles?

[Edmilson 7,466]

One thing is for sure: Kate Capshaw was already seeing Spielberg's "willie" when they were filming the movie 

[Andy 4,138]

He was still with Amy Irving at the time. 
 

Wonder if she was Fury-ous. 

[Bellosh 3,419]

A film that truly wouldn't be made today.

 

Back when you didn't have to cater to fan service with character references (ok minus the gun gag during the 'sword trick'

 

The film was never referenced again in the other sequels until Dial.  Which I was not a fan of....

 

Because ultimately...Temple of Doom is a day in the life of Indiana Jones. A weekend getaway.  And that's what it makes it so special.

 

The movie feels punk rock in that sense.  Doesn't care that it was so far removed from the formula Raiders set up with what a globe trotting adventure could be.  Which brings me to my next point...I love how it's not globetrotting.

 

So many franchise movies these days have to have an end of the world feeling to it if the hero doesn't save the day.  Not saying the other 4 films have that, but way more so than Temple.  No offense to Mola Ram....but the film and macguffin never gives off that vibe that they could take over the world, even though it's said.

 

Also the ending of the film is just a feel fucking good moment.  And that's it!  No ambiguity tied to it.  The adventure is over and that's okay!

 

And the score?  It's perfect.  The Raiders March is literally putty in JW hands. He molded it perfectly in every cue.  It's somber at the right times and has the perfect amount of heroic flourishes when needed.

 

People who don't like this film...I hope they realize this movie would never be made today and it should be appreciated more.

[Thor 7,513]

It's a fantastic film.

 

It received a lot of flack for being too all-over-the-place and cartoonish, due to (if memory serves) Chuck Jones' involvement on storyboards (in part). And the whole violence angle. But I think everything comes together well. I first saw it at an acquaintance's place in Denmark, on VHS, in the late 80s.

 

The score is equally great, and for the longest time I had desired an expanded release (believe it or not). I managed to get hold of the OST through a Japanese trade connection in the late 90s, and the album was great, but I always believed it could sustain more minutes. Well, fastforward a few years and I got hold of the expanded boot, and subsequently the expanded Concorde release. Well, they both deflated my initial feeling. It did NOT stand up to an expanded presentation. It was simply too mickey-mousey and perfunctory, a lot of it. So the the OST was the ultimate presentation of the score, after all.

 

But it stands the test of time, all the themes and setpieces in the score, as beautifully curated on the rare OST.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

58 minutes ago, Thor said:

I always believed it could sustain more minutes. Well, fastforward a few years and I got hold of the expanded boot, and subsequently the expanded Concorde release. Well, they both deflated my initial feeling. It did NOT stand up to an expanded presentation.

 

Expectations subverted!

 

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

The film was never referenced again in the other sequels until Dial.  Which I was not a fan of....

 

What do you mean - you're not a fan of the reference in DoD, or you're not a fan of this being the only reference?

 

58 minutes ago, Thor said:

So the the OST was the ultimate presentation of the score, after all.

 

I find the OST too short, and something between the OST and the Concord would probably be a sweet point to me.

[Bellosh 3,419]

36 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

What do you mean - you're not a fan of the reference in DoD, or you're not a fan of this being the only reference?

 

I'm simply not a fan of it being referenced at all.  Since TLC and KOTCS did not, Dial felt like the writers going "HEY GUYS WE REMEMBER TEMPLE OF DOOM!!"

 

A movie that wants to be taken seriously but Indy talking about the blood of Kali which was a blip of his life on adventures felt cheesy to me.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Indy almost died, so it's completely natural it stuck with him. Almost dying is ofen a blip of a person's life.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

They never bothered making movies of his other adventures so obviously Pankot stuck out

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

I wonder why Lucas made so many Young Indy episodes instead of more movies. If Ford wasn't interested, they could have made proper Young Indy movies instead. 

[Andy 4,138]

Probably to experiment with quantity on a budget with new technologies. 
 

I can’t get over that they stopped after Last Crusade.   Everyone gushes over riding into the sunset. Bah!!! I wanted to see more adventures every few years.   Fer Chrissakes, we missed Jones in World War II !!

 

However we may feel about the 4th and 5th installments, the biggest mistake was George and Steven giving up on Indiana Jones after 1989. 

7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Goddam look at that beautiful frame.  It makes me smile.   Of course it’s believable, the Slalom on Mt Humol tells us it is!

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

11 minutes ago, Andy said:

Fer Chrissakes, we missed Jones in World War II !!

 

We finally got that in DoD and I love it!

[JTN 2,033]

29 minutes ago, Andy said:

Fer Chrissakes, we missed Jones in World War II !!

 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom OST plus To Pancot Palace would have been perfect. 

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

21 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom OST plus To Pancot Palace would have been perfect. 

 

 

 

 

We need more exuberance towards the end, so Return to the Village has to be included. 

 

8 hours ago, Holko said:

I never understood the

implausibility complaints - it's right there, caught on camera in one take!

 

Looks real to me.

 

[Damien F 1,742]

There is something about JW's approach to Temple that fascinates me. I think unlike the proceeding movies in the genre he composed (Raiders / Empire / ET / ROTJ), there is something about Temple that feels less grand, less operatic, and less prestige. It feels like a B movie, not in budget but in the storytelling approach. And so if JW had matched that with a score of 50% less complexity and maybe one or two fewer themes than we actually got, it still would have been an amazing score. But I think more than any other scoring assignment, JW really went above and beyond with the score he wrote. I get the impression he just really enjoyed and had fun scoring this film.

[Edmilson 7,466]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I wonder why Lucas made so many Young Indy episodes instead of more movies. If Ford wasn't interested, they could have made proper Young Indy movies instead. 

 

2 hours ago, Andy said:

Probably to experiment with quantity on a budget with new technologies. 

Lucas was too busy studying philosophy, history, politics, religion and the great tales and myths in order to prepare himself for the prequels 

 

Speaking seriously now, I think some of the fault of why we didn't get Indy movies in the 90s or early 2000s lies in Spielberg. He spent most of the 90s doing "serious and adult" cinema (Schindler's List, Amistad, Saving Private Ryan), with only JP and TLW giving his "blockbuster" fix. Then in the 2000s even his blockbusters became "serious and adult" (AI, MR, WOW). 

 

It's a shame... I'd love to have seen an alternate universe where Indy became kinda like Bond, with the exception that it was only the same guy playing the part.

[Andy 4,138]

YES! I couldn’t agree more. 

On topic: it’s the little moments too. Indy’s voice when he says “Don’t come up here” makes this scene.  He means it. It’s freaking scary in a dread filled way. 
 

[Haasch 9]

The score for this feels like a constant stream of interconnected tracks. Where Raiders is spotted more sparsely in comparison, I can think of maybe four scenes in this sans-music. I read somewhere that it's like a ballet, and I really like that description for it, especially in the final third of the film.

[Datameister 2,044]

The movie is a bizarre mixture of things that work spectacularly and things that emphatically don't. I enjoy it and I genuinely respect it not being a retread of its superior predecessor. But I wish it wasn't so flawed.

 

The score is also a big change of direction, but a more successful one. It sounds very different from Raiders but still gives that top-notch score a run for its money.

[Brando 1,864]

My earliest Indy memory is being at my grandmas house while my mom and dad were out, and my aunt and grandma were watching TOD on tv (not the best way to watch this movie but that's not important to the story) and I had to have been 2-3, and I feel like I remember seeing the 'Fortune and Glory' moment on the tv but I might be remembering wrong, I was little, but anyways, the I was hooked because my aunt had told there was alligators at the end and as a Florida boy, that's all I needed to hear. I never ended up finish the movie that night, but I remember watching it years later for the first time and thought that the rope bridge sequence is the most balls off the wall thing Indy has ever done, and my opinion to this day has not changed. Mola Ram drips with evil and is stupidly cool. His entrance is perfect because he doesn't interact with the heroes, he's just doing his thing as if they're not there, and that's what makes him terrifying. He steals the show (and our hearts) from that first moment. Also, the cinematography and the shots of the bridge breaking at the end are perfectly done, I could watch it over and over and not get enough of it: 

 

Also, I love that JW had fun writing the score, it is such a delight to listen to, the Eastern influences in the opening cues to the jungle percussion are exquisite. 

[Groovygoth666 670]

This was easily my least favourite of the trilogy when I was younger. With the falling raft, the dinner scene and Willie being my biggest problems with the film. But the score (that's the Concord and leaks) was always a close second to Last Crusade for me.

 

But several years ago I watched it in the cinema with an audience and the laughter at how over the top Willie was and the jokes during the dinner scene kind of made me give it a second chance. 

 

Something I've come to love is how different it is following Raiders, that Willie isn't just a copy of Marion, that she's her own character and arguably the only Indy girl to have a arc. Short Round has always been great and I love how much Ke Huy Quan and Harrison Ford play off each other, their chemistry is just fun to watch. Mola Ram is also a great villain, while maybe not quite as threatening as the Nazis, Amrish Puri plays him perfectly as a villain of the week. 

 

And the opening sequence, say what you will about Raiders being iconic and Crusade giving us an origin for Indy, but everything here is just perfect, the homage to musicals with Anything Goes, the tension back and forth with Lao Che, the chaos trying to get the antidote and the chase through Shanghai and the reveal Indy is on a plane owned by Lao is just a fantastic opening of a film and is definitely my favourite of the first three. 

 

These days my biggest problems are still the raft falling, had it began falling straight on to a slope instead of the big drop and then sliding down the mountain it might not have broken my suspension of disbelief. The dinner scene and how it's still culturally insensitive, there was an extra bit during the scene that was cut where Indy says to Captain Blumburtt about the choice of cuisine and how it's not normal and something is clearly wrong would certainly help make it clear that what was happening wasn't typical. And that Indy has the same arc as Raiders, someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural is convinced otherwise, with Temple being a prequel his conversation to Marcus in Raiders about superstition retroactively feels out of place.

 

TLDR didn't like it growing up but have come to love and appreciate it compared to Raiders and Crusade. 

 

[JTN 2,033]

Temple of Doom will always be my least favorite of the Trilogy, but only compared to the classic Raiders and the great Last Crusade. I’m glad ToD exists, because it shows how filmmakers like George Lucas dared taking risks and not just give the same successful formula over and over again.

Temple feels like a fever dream that Indy had to live through between his two great adventures for the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail. It’s dark and crazy, but has plenty to offer. And Williams’ score saves it yet again, like he did Jaws and Star Wars. So thank you, Maestro.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

32 minutes ago, JTW said:

it shows how filmmakers like George Lucas dared taking risks and not just give the same successful formula over and over again.

 

Just like he did with episode I.

[QuartalHarmony 543]

My mum took me to see Raiders with a school friend, but I don’t remember it much - I must only have been about seven.

 

Temple, on the other hand, came out when I was ten, which is probably the ideal age. I saw it countless times and, it being the mid-80s, saw no cultural issues in any of it. It’s a much less comfortable watch now, but I think it’s been long enough that I can now watch it with a certain distance and appreciate it for what it is.

 

And the score is still extraordinary. Yet another example of JW giving a film a far better score than it deserved (á la Hook, Far & Away)

 

Mark

[Thor 7,513]

22 hours ago, Bellosh said:

I'm simply not a fan of it being referenced at all.  Since TLC and KOTCS did not, Dial felt like the writers going "HEY GUYS WE REMEMBER TEMPLE OF DOOM!!"

 

A movie that wants to be taken seriously but Indy talking about the blood of Kali which was a blip of his life on adventures felt cheesy to me.

 

Sorry to hear it. That was one of my absolute favourite moments in DIAL OF DESTINY. I was both moved and got goosebumps at the same time when Indy uttered those lines; finally recognizing the greatness of the - over the years - much maligned TEMPLE OF DOOM. And also playing up his old and weary body and everything it's been through over the years. A war wound story, like the one they tell each other on the boat in JAWS.

 

18 hours ago, Edmilson said:

It's a shame... I'd love to have seen an alternate universe where Indy became kinda like Bond, with the exception that it was only the same guy playing the part.

 

Casting Connery in THE LAST CRUSADE was a deliberate "in-joke" suggesting that Indy was a sort "son of Bond" in a non-literal sense, i.e. an heir as a film action hero. It's recounted in Douglas Brode's ultimate Spielberg book.

 

14 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

And the opening sequence, say what you will about Raiders being iconic and Crusade giving us an origin for Indy, but everything here is just perfect, the homage to musicals with Anything Goes

 

It's a superb sequence, a straight-up tribute to Busby Berkeley and 42ND STREET, in particular.

[Andy 4,138]

55 minutes ago, Thor said:

Sorry to hear it. That was one of my absolute favourite moments in DIAL OF DESTINY. I was both moved and got goosebumps at the same time when Indy uttered those lines; finally recognizing the greatness of the - over the years - much maligned TEMPLE OF DOOM. And also playing up his old and weary body and everything it's been through over the years. A war wound story, like the one they tell each other on the boat in JAWS.

Same, one of my favorite moments. The Blood of Kali reference in DOD made me laugh out loud. It worked as comedy, reminding us all of the ridiculousness of the whole thing and adding much needed levity to the movie.   I too was pleased that it validated TOD. Of all the things that happened to Jones over the years, that was what he chose to bitch about to Helena.  Loved it. 
 

 No worse than the Ark of the covenant references in TLC and KOTCS.  In fact, I’d say I enjoyed this reference more. It was a bit of a deeper cut for fans of the series. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

The fall in the raft never bothered me as much as the shot they ran in reverse showing the dancing girls getting back up from the splits and doing a high kick! 
 

That opening, with Williams' glorious arrangement of "Anything Goes", is just so gonzo—and it's just the beginning! I'll second what @Andy said about the possibility of them being high on something while making this movie, and the fact that it would never be made like that today.

 

Amrish Puri as Mola Ram is as much a scene-stealer as Ian McDiarmid was as the Emperor in Star Wars, delivering his lines with such gleeful menace. I loved imitating him as a kid (Full disclosure: I still do), and could (can) do a mean "They will be found! You won't!!" (evil laughter)

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

17 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

My mum took me to see Raiders with a school friend, but I don’t remember it much - I must only have been about seven.

 

Isn't that waaay too young for such a film?

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Isn't that waaay too young for such a film?

Maybe if looked at today, but back then parents in general weren't as vigilant I think. And as a kid who loved horror and intense fantasy, I'm glad mine weren't and brought me to see whatever PG-rated film I saw advertised on the covers of Famous Monsters of Filmland and Fangoria magazines.

[Haasch 9]

Goofy question I couldn't find an answer to: was there any reason given why this one was recorded in L.A.? 

[Jay 37,369]

Not goofy at all.

 

It's more that Raiders was recorded in London that's the oddity.  Pretty much every Williams/Spielberg score is recorded in LA as the norm.

[Edmilson 7,466]

Apparently Raiders being recorded in London was more of a George Lucas thing. After that, every subsequent Indy score, as well as every Spielberg score, was done in the US.

 

It makes me wonder what a London Symphony Orchestra recording of ET would be like.

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

24 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

It makes me wonder what a London Symphony Orchestra recording of ET would be like.

It's funny because when I was young I just assumed it was the LSO for all of them. Was surprised to find out it was actually the Hollywood Studio Symphony performing the hell out of these scores. I'm content with the recordings and can't imagine the LSO bringing much more to the sound, so I don't wonder.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,547]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

It makes me wonder what a London Symphony Orchestra recording of ET would be like.

 

Around the time of E.T.'s release in the UK (December, 1982), there was a record by the LSO released (on, if memory serves, either the Pickwick, or the MFP label), where they perform a version of "Adventures On Earth".

It was bloody awful.

[QuartalHarmony 543]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:28 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

Isn't that waaay too young for such a film?

By 2023 standards, probably. By 1981 parenting standards? Absolutely fine.

 

In the UK, it was an A certificate in 1981 which meant it could be seen by children if accompanied by an adult. Since then, it’s been reclassified as PG and then re-reclassified as a 12A. Autre temps, autre moeurs, as we say in Wiltshire.

 

Personally, of all the things in my childhood that I look back on and think ‘that was a bit iffy’, this isn’t one of them.

 

Mark

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

 

[JTN 2,033]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:10 PM, Edmilson said:

It makes me wonder what a London Symphony Orchestra recording of ET would be like.

LEGENDARY.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Well actually...

 

 

 

[JTN 2,033]

Great album!

[Mr. Hooper 1,793]

8 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well actually...

 

 

I know you've said that you don't like this recording, but judging from this clip it sounds fine. Not better than the OST, but fine.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

I don't dislike this specific track, I just found the album a bit disappointing when I got it ages ago.

[JTN 2,033]

You should give it another try.

[pete 907]

The new documentary on Disney Plus "Timeless Heroes: Indiana Jones and Harrison Ford" shows how much fun the actors and Steven had on set. It's really quite touching hearing more about Harrison's relationship with little Key Huy Quan. And there's a little footage from the Dial of Destiny recording sessions with Harrison giving thanks to Williams. I really enjoyed the documentary, and it makes me more excited for the Williams doc.

[phbart 609]

On 04/12/2023 at 3:06 PM, Haasch said:

Goofy question I couldn't find an answer to: was there any reason given why this one was recorded in L.A.? 

If I read correctly somewhere, it's because, by 1984, recording engineer Eric Tomlinson wasn't working for Anvil Studios anymore (were they recorded the OT and Raiders as well). So maybe it was more "convenient" to stay in the US.

[Schilkeman 964]

A shame, as I'd take Maurice Murphy over Malcolm McNab (the rest of the brass, too) any day of the week, but it's still the best score in the series, to me at least.