Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

Yoda does mention that he is sick.  

So he just randomly caught a fatal bug just before Luke returns? It’s even sillier then… but I think he just says he’s “grown old and weak”… I don’t remember him saying he had an illness.

 

Yavar

[Faleel 5,348]

2 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

So he just randomly caught a fatal bug just before Luke returns? It’s even sillier then… but I think he just says he’s “grown old and weak”… I don’t remember him saying he had an illness.

 

Yavar

"Sick have I become. hmm. old and weak."

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Yodas death is of natural causes. Not silly at all. Its convenient story wise, but it is completely feasible. 

 
In terms of plot, it’s a sillier contrivance than what does Luke in, IMO.

 

Would you really have preferred if Old Luke had died of “natural causes” (a silly catch all term for when old people pass away, when there usually IS an actual reason, even if it’s just the common cold or something) similarly to Yoda, in The Last Jedi? I think that would have sucked, frankly.

 

Yavar

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

7 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

So he just randomly caught a fatal bug just before Luke returns? It’s even sillier then… but I think he just says he’s “grown old and weak”… I don’t remember him saying he had an illness.

 

Yavar

 

Coincidences happen all the time.

[Faleel 5,348]

I feel it would probably be hated less, if the old EU stories had never existed.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

35 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 
In terms of plot, it’s a sillier contrivance than what does Luke in, IMO.

 

Would you really have preferred if Old Luke had died of “natural causes” (a silly catch all term for when old people pass away, when there usually IS an actual reason, even if it’s just the common cold or something) similarly to Yoda, in The Last Jedi? I think that would have sucked, frankly.

 

Yavar

I would have prefered they let him live, at least to the last film. Not kill one of the big three in each film.

[Tom 4,658]

33 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Coincidences happen all the time.

I was about to write that.  What a co....

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

Just now, Tom said:

I was about to write that.  What a co....

 

I was about to write that!

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Coincidence is The Force's way of remaining anonymous.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

57 minutes ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

I feel it would probably be hated less, if the old EU stories had never existed.

 

I think there's some truth to that, but personally, I hated it because I found no way to connect to it emotionally. I guess other people did, but I find damn near everything in TLJ stupid and unrelateable and it's shocking because there are very few movies I have ever felt that way about.

[Faleel 5,348]

Just now, A. A. Ron said:

 

I think there's some truth to that, but personally, I hated it because I found no way to connect to it emotionally. I guess other people did, but I find damn near everything in TLJ stupid and unrelateable and it's shocking because there are very few movies I have ever felt that way about.

I dunno, I can relate to wanting to die because of hard work.

[Brando 1,863]

4 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

Yeah I hear you, but how do you explain the people who are upset/up in arms about Luke's "silly" death, but are seemingly okay with the deaths of Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda?

 

Yavar

Oh no I agree, I was always of the opinion that if Luke were to die, he should die like Yoda, so seeing him become one with the Force made me very happy.

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Coincidence is The Force's way of remaining anonymous.

I thought we established that the Force was diarrhea?

[DarthDementous 1,059]

5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

Yeah I hear you, but how do you explain the people who are upset/up in arms about Luke's "silly" death, but are seemingly okay with the deaths of Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda?

 

Yavar

The issue for me isn't that Luke dies, it's everything leading up to the confrontation and death

Thanks to the original canon I know what Luke post-ROTJ looked like, I know what he struggled with and what bad choices he made that lead to some pretty dire consequences. Despite that he was still a good person that tried to do his best and live up to the ideals of what he thinks a Jedi is, he didn't give up once because that's the kind of person he is. Luke does not give up on people, even when they are trying to kill him, if he believes there's even a glimmer of hope. He's an idealist and an incredibly loyal friend, especially under pressure, and he's also very humble. Honestly, all in all a really good role model.

So for the Sequel Trilogy to go 'no, actually even all those years ago before now he betrayed everything he stood for' doesn't sit right with me. I can't reconcile that with being the same character, and that goes beyond a 'is it realistic for something like this to happen' into more of a 'why would you obliterate this character defined by these set of ideals instead of doing this with someone else'. It retroactively weakens the Original Trilogy too since so much of it is built on Luke's character and perseverance

TLDR I love to see Luke struggling with things and facing the consequences of his actions, provided it doesn't blow apart the character he has been established to be. This was done expertly already in the original canon so as a result I look at the new canon with far more scrutiny because I know what the successful version of this looks like

Addendum: The new canon has done this well once:

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Yep. I think the idea of Luke in exile is fascinating, especially if it was only for say, the first movie in a trilogy. But to have that be his whole story in the sequels? To include him in exactly zero adventures? To never show him on screen with Han, Leia and Chewie on the Falcon, not even for a quick scene that you can stick in the trailer? It's shortsighted at best.

[Andy 4,128]

I’m probably the biggest defender of the sequels, and yet I must agree with @A. A. Ron  .  I still enjoy them, but it’s heartbreaking that the Big Three didn’t get together. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

3 minutes ago, Andy said:

I’m probably the biggest defender of the sequels, and yet I must agree with @A. A. Ron  .  I still enjoy them, but it’s heartbreaking that the Big Three didn’t get together. 

Yeah I agree on that much, for sure. But again JJ Abrams was responsible for leaving Rian Johnson with that situation — Han already dead before Luke appeared on screen, and Luke having somehow ignored everything that had been happening. The Last Jedi explained it in the only way that made sense. Unless someone wants to tell me a different way he should have used the prompt he was handed?

 

I wish Johnson had been able to plan and write the whole sequel trilogy on his own. It would have been better. Abrams is good at setting things up and creating characters you care about. He’s not very good at planning a story.

 

Yavar

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

There could be dozens of reasons Luke is hanging out alone that aren't "He tried to kill his own nephew after he had an intrusive thought for a few seconds." The man who wrote that idiotic plot point and thought it was good is not someone I would trust with a trilogy in ANY franchise.

[Bellosh 3,419]

It's this forums destiny to always bring up the sequels. So let's dial it back or go to the star wars is better than everything thread (hint: it's not 😏, Indy is (see the Indiana Jones is better than everything thread for proof)

 

(Kylo should have been the only villain in TROS and TLJ was actually awesome)

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

1 minute ago, Bellosh said:

(Kylo should have been the only villain in TROS and TLJ was actually awesome)

agreed!

 

Yavar

[GerateWohl 4,369]

4 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I wish Johnson had been able to plan and write the whole sequel trilogy on his own. It would have been better. Abrams is good at setting things up and creating characters you care about. He’s not very good at planning a story.

I agree with the Rey/Kylo/Luke part of The Last Jedi being good. But everything else is a mess. Finn and Rose affair and mission, Canto Bight, that senseless spaceship chase, Holdo annoying by just not talking to anyone. Only good thing about Holdo was her last action destroying the star destroyer.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Luke’s exile was treated way better in the old canon. (Fate of the jedi series)

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

Guys, the books were never “canon”. “Book canon” maybe, in that they tried to build a continuity *between* the books so they didn’t contradict each other. But it was always the case that a new Star Wars film could come out and supersede the book(s). That didn’t remotely start with Disney. That started with The Empire Strikes back and continued through the prequels. (Yes, I’m still sore about Boba Fett’s stupid new backstory about being a clone of his “father” who was also the template for all the “clone troopers”, the obvious stormtrooper predecessors. Just bizarre.)

 

Name me a single Star Wars film which ever cared about contradicting the Star Wars books written before it.

 

Yavar

[Tallguy 3,389]

9 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

To never show him on screen with Han, Leia and Chewie on the Falcon, not even for a quick scene that you can stick in the trailer? It's shortsighted at best.

 

And that's not Johnson's fault. It's Abrams. And you're absolutely right. Add in Fisher's death (recast Leia!) and it becomes a more tragic mistake.

 

Abrams would have (might have?) made a more satisfying movie if he had been able to pick what toys he wanted from the toy box. Obviously he wanted to do the story of Luke, Rey, and Kylo. Everything else was keeping everyone busy.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Guys, the books were never “canon”. “Book canon” maybe, in that they tried to build a continuity *between* the books so they didn’t contradict each other. But it was always the case that a new Star Wars film could come out and supersede the book(s). That didn’t remotely start with Disney. That started with The Empire Strikes back and continued through the prequels. (Yes, I’m still sore about Boba Fett’s stupid new backstory about being a clone of his “father” who was also the template for all the “clone troopers”, the obvious stormtrooper predecessors. Just bizarre.)

 

Name me a single Star Wars film which ever cared about contradicting the Star Wars books written before it.

 

Yavar

Who cares? They were well-written stories that had coordination between other authors writing in that space so they formed an interconnected and cohesive universe. The label or tier ascribed to them is meaningless in this regard. They still existed, and they still filled in a part of the universe that is now being redone in a less thoughtful way.

To engage in the semantic argument though, Pre-Disney used a formal tiered canon system, even if something was in a tier below the movies (usually what was called 'C' canon for continuity), they're still canon until shown otherwise, which in the case we're talking about was not contradicted by any movies because nothing touched the post-ROTJ era.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

 

Name me a single Star Wars film which ever cared about contradicting the Star Wars books written before it.

 

Yavar

Well, they didnt dare to name the capital planet other than Coruscant.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

And apparently Thrawn exists in the live action Star Wars universe now, but I don’t think they’re going to worry about doing an exact adaptation of the original Timothy Zahn trilogy on the new Ahsoka show. They’ll keep what bits they like and won’t have *any* problem disregarding the rest.

 

Not all of the EU books were great by any means, either. It seems like some people just wanted/expected the new sequel trilogy to be beholden to storylines cooked up by Kevin J. Anderson. And that’s just not reasonable.

 

Yavar

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The old eu was killed just at the same point story-wise as the new rey film. In the end what is the point of rewriting the whole story between rotj and that, if they are still picking characters, situations and the like from the EU.

 

im sure they could have cococted a satisfactory resume story based on the old eu and have everyone happy

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

The point was not to be constrained by decades and decades of book continuity, much of which wasn’t great and all of which couldn’t be cared less about by the general public. With Ford and Hamill in their 70s, what EU books did you want them to adapt for the big screen? The Yuuzhan Vong stuff? Chewbacca’s death on Sernpidal when the moon crashes into the planet? Good grief. Fanboy expectations are often so unreasonable, and I say that as a fanboy.

 

In the 1990s maybe they could have adapted the Thrawn trilogy. When they didn’t, that ship sailed. Just enjoy the books you like as a separate mental timeline.

 

There was EU stuff that got outright contradicted by the terrible prequels too. And Alan Dean Foster’s 1978 book Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was an official Star Wars novel sequel which they felt free to completely ignore with The Empire Strikes Back. Disney Star Wars is nothing new in this regard. Why should the film series have to worry about aligning itself with books that only a small fragment of the Star Wars-watching public cares about or is even aware of?

 

What next? All newly produced Star Trek on screen has to make sure it’s consistent with a half century of written Star Trek books and comics? Lol.

 

Yavar

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

55 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

What next? All newly produced Star Trek on screen has to make sure it’s consistent with a half century of written Star Trek books and comics? Lol.

 

While I sympathize somewhat with this perspective, I have to point out that it's just as hard for new Trek writers these days to make sure their work is consistent with a half century of Trek shows and movies, yet none of us thinks that's an unreasonable request.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

The point was not to be constrained by decades and decades of book continuity, much of which wasn’t great and all of which couldn’t be cared less about by the general public. With Ford and Hamill in their 70s, what EU books did you want them to adapt for the big screen? The Yuuzhan Vong stuff? Chewbacca’s death on Sernpidal when the moon crashes into the planet? Good grief. Fanboy expectations are often so unreasonable, and I say that as a fanboy.

 

In the 1990s maybe they could have adapted the Thrawn trilogy. When they didn’t, that ship sailed. Just enjoy the books you like as a separate mental timeline.

 

There was EU stuff that got outright contradicted by the terrible prequels too. And Alan Dean Foster’s 1978 book Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was an official Star Wars novel sequel which they felt free to completely ignore with The Empire Strikes Back. Disney Star Wars is nothing new in this regard. Why should the film series have to worry about aligning itself with books that only a small fragment of the Star Wars-watching public cares about or is even aware of?

 

What next? All newly produced Star Trek on screen has to make sure it’s consistent with a half century of written Star Trek books and comics? Lol.

 

Yavar

This argument defending erasing the entire previous canon makes no sense. If it was already the precedent that the movies could overwrite the books/comics/games then what's the point of discontinuing them entirely? The movies already weren't beholden to them as you pointed out before. The thing you said in a previous comment about how now Ahsoka doesn't have to adapt Heir to the Empire directly would've been the case if it was a movie before the Disney take-over. It was a very deliberate decision to erase and discontinue any expanded universe works because they wanted to take control of Star Wars in every way and revise what the universe was supposed to be. You're essentially parroting the reasoning they used to justify this decision and defending something that was done for the sake of business instead of creativity

It's also a terrible argument to say 'well only people who read the expanded universe would care' because no, especially when it comes to the Thrawn Trilogy, the whole point of adapting them would be to shine a spotlight on that story in another more accessible medium. The stories are strong enough on their own for people to care and be interested in seeing them in live action without needing to be familiar with them. Especially since that book trilogy doesn't rely on any previous stories other than the movies themselves

Ultimately I'm not opposed to the movies going in a completely different direction to the expanded material as long as it still makes sense with what the movies themselves established, especially thematically. It's that things went off in a different direction and then fundamentally off the deep end that makes me wish they had followed material that didn't do that

[Tom 4,658]

They had to move away from big parts, at least, of the established canon.  I think the bigger issue is that the sequels were worse than the best parts of the EU, beginning with the villain.  Thrawn was very compelling and in no way a rehash of the Emperor/Vader.  Snoke/Ren was the opposite--a rehash and a stupid one at that.  Mara Jade was awesome.  They could have had her in the sequels or maybe even dead (a better reason for Luke to be depressed).  Etc., etc. 

[Faleel 5,348]

9 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Just enjoy the books you like as a separate mental timeline.

 

Yavar

An unfinished cliffhanger mental timeline at that!

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

indiana jones

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

and the

[Brónach 1,302]

dial

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

of density

 

[Tom 4,658]

A Mangold quote from Screenrant.  Nothing dramatic--just nice to see JW counted among the inner-circle:

You're walking among legends, and you're aware of it. The only wonderful thing on this project is that all the legends are embracing you and are happy to be there with you. Whether you're talking about Harrison or Steven or Kathy or George or John Williams. What an opportunity. It's like being on an all-star baseball team. You just hope you rise to the occasion.

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

21 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

The point was not to be constrained by decades and decades of book continuity, much of which wasn’t great and all of which couldn’t be cared less about by the general public. With Ford and Hamill in their 70s, what EU books did you want them to adapt for the big screen? The Yuuzhan Vong stuff? Chewbacca’s death on Sernpidal when the moon crashes into the planet? Good grief. Fanboy expectations are often so unreasonable, and I say that as a fanboy.

 

In the 1990s maybe they could have adapted the Thrawn trilogy. When they didn’t, that ship sailed. Just enjoy the books you like as a separate mental timeline.

 

There was EU stuff that got outright contradicted by the terrible prequels too. And Alan Dean Foster’s 1978 book Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was an official Star Wars novel sequel which they felt free to completely ignore with The Empire Strikes Back. Disney Star Wars is nothing new in this regard. Why should the film series have to worry about aligning itself with books that only a small fragment of the Star Wars-watching public cares about or is even aware of?

 

What next? All newly produced Star Trek on screen has to make sure it’s consistent with a half century of written Star Trek books and comics? Lol.

 

Yavar

You didnt understand me i think.

 

i said they could have written a resumed backstory not shown on screen with the best story situations from the EU and make that canon, then create a new trilogy continuing that. That in the end that is where the universe was cancelled and current canon is now. The big three had just passed on the new generation and jaina was the new jedi grand master. Now the big three have passed (literally) and rey is the new jedi master.

 

would people be outraged if chewie didnt appear but had adventures with han, leia and luke together instead of killing them and make chewie the only survivor?

 

and now they could be creating tv shows after return of the jedi fleshing out that backstory.

 

another point is that the old canon is legends, as if the evens told there are romantical ideal exxagerations of the truth, but in the new canon the similarities are superficial so it is impossible to create legends like that about characters that dont exist with the true story.

 

in dragonlance novels, the weis and hickman novels were considered the true canon, and the other authors novels, legends canon, that could be true or not. That was nice.

[Faleel 5,348]

Legends is the story as told by R2

 

Canon is as told by Threepio

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

Someone over on the Raider fan forums pointed out this little short promotional blurb for the trailer on the official Instagram account that has a new shot of Indy, at least to my eyes:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Cool to see Indy using a gun again. Not his revolver, perhaps a German gun he picks up?

[Brónach 1,302]

has he ever used the gloves again?

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

34 minutes ago, Brónach said:

has he ever used the gloves again?

 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

While we're on the subject, do you think Indy would keep using the Webley WG, or do you think perhaps this time he might go back to a Smith & Wesson?

[Brando 1,863]

3 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

Someone over on the Raider fan forums pointed out this little short promotional blurb for the trailer on the official Instagram account that has a new shot of Indy, at least to my eyes:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Cool to see Indy using a gun again. Not his revolver, perhaps a German gun he picks up?

I feel like we already saw this new image of him? At least I did a week or so ago, but I just now noticed the watch on his wrist. Nice little detail.

[Brónach 1,302]

13 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

While we're on the subject, do you think Indy would keep using the Webley WG, or do you think perhaps this time he might go back to a Smith & Wesson?

 

perhaps he has a more modern one for the time? this topic goes over my head

 

i like to imagine he has a couple at home and that he tends to lose things in adventures

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

2 hours ago, Brónach said:

 

perhaps he has a more modern one for the time? this topic goes over my head

 

i like to imagine he has a couple at home and that he tends to lose things in adventures

 

Webley WG (Last Crusade/Crystal Skull):

 

Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector 2 (Raiders, The "Bapty"):

 

 

...gosh, posting these is actually making me a little nostalgic for the days I was on IndyLounge, talking Indy Gear with fellow Indy fans.

[Brónach 1,302]

Oh, i don't know which one I would pick! I think i like the overall shape of the first one better.

[ThePenitentMan1 743]

On 17/04/2023 at 6:32 AM, Brónach said:

Oh, i don't know which one I would pick! I think i like the overall shape of the first one better.

 

Yeah, the Webley's definitely the most popular pick for Indy fans.   It's certainly become Indy's most iconic sidearm!  Of course, by the '60s it would definitely be more of an antique than it was in the '30s, which might be a bit of a problem, production-wise, depending on what they want to do with it.  It'd be great if they could still manage to pull it off, though!

 

On the other hand, the Bapty is actually strikingly similar to other N-frame Smiths that were still being sold in the 1960s, so even if an actual Hand Ejector would be off the table, it wouldn't be difficult at all to use a Smith that gives off the same kind of vibe.  Indy with a 4- or 6-inch M27 or even an M29...  Just imagine it!

[Brónach 1,302]

Perhaps they can choose a third one from the sixties that's similar to the Bapty.

[Tom 4,658]

Sometimes I hate journalists and their trap questions. 

 

Spoiler

Anyway, I take this as a near-confirmation:

https://journalnow.com/entertainment/will-karen-allen-appear-in-the-new-indiana-jones-film-her-lips-are-sealed-star/article_c9c252f8-dad1-11ed-87f9-c3a02a1277fc.html

 

[Brando 1,863]

At least they didn’t do it like with Skull, which they could’ve kept a surprise. But I agree, journalists questions are stupid sometimes.