Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[Groovygoth666 672]

52 minutes ago, StarFox said:

I definitely don’t disagree with that. I mentioned that the writers are to blame.

I was just defending Ford’s acting. He nailed what the writers came up with…it’s just not what it should have been.

Ah sorry I misunderstood you, Ford definitely gives a solid performance with the material at hand. And yeah it's not what it should have been. 

 

1 hour ago, StarFox said:

Weak writing, AMAZING acting. If anything KOTCS hits those “Maverick” vibes. You know what that means? Top Gun 3 is going to open with a drunk, depressed Maverick because Rooster was shot down and KIA over enemy lines. Rooster’s son will have to save Maverick from giving up on life….are you reading this Hollywood?!! You’re welcome for this completely original sequel idea!!!!

That's a good point, KOTCS almost comes close to hitting those Maverick vibes but it definitely misses the mark. If there was a Top Gun 3 and Tom Cruise was involved it definitely won't have him drunk and depressed over anyone's death. Regardless of what people think of him Cruise always wants to entertain an audience and knows this would be a bad idea. 

[Bespin 8,484]

I have some sequel projects to propose to Mr. Ford, I'm sure he'll like them:

• "Blade Runner: Retirement" - A take on the 'Blade Runner' series where Deckard (portrayed by Harrison Ford) has retired but struggles to find peace in his golden years. He's fed up with replicants and just wants to live out his days peacefully, yet circumstances repeatedly draw him back into a world entangled with a mysterious new AI Chat entity. Deckard dies at the end.
• "Air Force Two: Grounded" - A sequel to the 'Air Force One' movie where the retired President (played by Harrison Ford) is weary of politics and longs for a peaceful life. However, due to a series of comedic mishaps involving an orange-haired enemy, he inadvertently becomes entangled in a political conspiracy once again. Both dies at the end.
• "Patriot Games: Retirement Home" - A light-hearted continuation of the Jack Ryan series where Jack (played by Harrison Ford in one installment) has retired from the CIA and just wants a peaceful life. However, he keeps finding himself drawn into espionage and intrigue (yes, involving Russians, yet again), much to his dismay. He dies at the end, but not the Russian President.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

I have some sequels project to propose to Mr. Ford, I'm sure he'll like them:

• "Blade Runner: Retirement" - A take on the "Blade Runner" series where Deckard (Harrison Ford's character) has retired but can't seem to enjoy his golden years. He's fed up with replicants and just wants to live out his days peacefully, but circumstances keep pulling him back into the world of replicant hunting. He dies at the end.
• "Air Force Two: Grounded" - A sequel to the 'Air Force One' movie where the retired President (played by Harrison Ford) is weary of politics and longs for a peaceful life. However, due to a series of comedic mishaps involving an orange-haired enemy, he inadvertently becomes entangled in a political conspiracy once again. He dies at the end.
• "Patriot Games: Retirement Home" - A light-hearted continuation of the Jack Ryan series where Jack (played by Harrison Ford in one installment) has retired from the CIA and just wants a peaceful life. However, he keeps finding himself drawn into espionage and intrigue, much to his dismay. He dies at the end.

 

• "The Fugitive 2: Overdue" - In this taut action thriller, Dr. Richard Kimball (Morning Glory's Harrison Ford), now semi-retired and leading a quiet life as a professor of medicine, is forced to go on the run again when unpaid library fines from overdue books lost during his time in prison finally catch up to him. U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard (Batman Forever's Tommy Lee Jones), now head of the Chicago Public Library, reassembles his old team for one last hunt of the fugitive Kimball. Who dies at the end.

[Faleel 5,365]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

• "The Fugitive 2: Overdue" - In this taut action thriller, Dr. Richard Kimball (Morning Glory's Harrison Ford), now semi-retired and leading a quiet life as a professor of medicine, is forced to go on the run again when unpaid library fines from overdue books lost during his time in prison finally catch up to him. U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard (Batman Forever's Tommy Lee Jones), now head of the Chicago Public Library, reassembles his old team for one last hunt for the fugitive Kimball. Who dies at the end.

Of a heart attack. From running. to the bathroom.

[Mr. Hooper 1,806]

These all sound good. An old protagonist wanting a peaceful life, and then dying, is a proven formula.

 

8 minutes ago, Presto said:

Of a heart attack. From running. to the bathroom.

While yelling "I didn't do it!"

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

17 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

While yelling "I didn't do it!"

 

Sir this is an Applebee's.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

18 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

• "The Fugitive 2: Overdue" - In this taut action thriller, Dr. Richard Kimball (Morning Glory's Harrison Ford), now semi-retired and leading a quiet life as a professor of medicine, is forced to go on the run again when unpaid library fines from overdue books lost during his time in prison finally catch up to him. U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard (Batman Forever's Tommy Lee Jones), now head of the Chicago Public Library, reassembles his old team for one last hunt of the fugitive Kimball. Who dies at the end.

 

"Sabrina 3: Linus' Destiny" - Linus (Harrison Ford) is old and retired, having publicly handed the keys to his business to David.  He and Sabrina divorced offscreen, and now he longs only for a peaceful life in his private mansion.

 

He's then swept into an adventure involving plot elements originally introduced in Sabrina 2 (something about a courtroom drama, dinosaurs, and a teenage witch? And probably a few more things I'm forgetting) before the movie ends with Sabrina finally finding a perfect young man to fall in love with, while Linus dies of a broken heart without ever seeing her again blissfully reuniting with Linus in a hastily put-together ending that was added in reshoots after poor test audience results.

[crocodile 8,020]

Yeah, but he's terminally ill and dies 2 minutes later, right? Right!?

 

Karol

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

1 hour ago, crocodile said:

Yeah, but he's terminally ill and dies 2 minutes later, right? Right!?

 

Karol

 

That was the second version of the ending during the first reshoot.  The test audiences didn't like that one either.

 

The ending was reshot five or six more times before it was finally decided that when the test audiences said they didn't want Linus to die, they actually meant that they didn't want Linus to die.

[Gabriel Bezerra 303]

On 09/12/2023 at 1:46 AM, HunterTech said:

That implies either lead character actually learned anything in DoD

Helena learns from Indy to care again about history and the artifacts. 

 

Saw some comments on the final punch, it got a lot of laughs in the theater I was in, I think I was the youngest one there.

[Mr. Hooper 1,806]

5 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

Helena learns from Indy to care again about history and the artifacts.

Yes, and she also learned to care a little about human suffering, when she made a sad face after Indy told her of his son's death, and also after he reminded her that his friend, Renaldo, had just been killed.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Yes, and she also learned to care a little about human suffering

 

If she thinks being in that movie is human suffering, she should try watching it.

[Mr. Hooper 1,806]

4 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

If she thinks being in that movie is human suffering, she should try watching it.

It was like having your heart ripped out, and being left alive to talk about it.

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

It was like having your heart ripped out, and being left alive to talk about it.

 

 

You'd like that, wouldn't you? Get your face on the cover of National Geographic.

[Mr. Hooper 1,806]

3 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

You'd like that, wouldn't you? Get your face on the cover of National Geographic.

It would be my second time.

 

[Brónach 1,302]

now disney also owns you

[Mr. Hooper 1,806]

5 hours ago, Brónach said:

now disney also owns you

I wonder when they're going to rein me in for all the disparaging comments I've made about them lately...

[GerateWohl 4,382]

I watched about half of the movie again, not too entertained. And I found one thing, that I really miss in this Indiana Jones movie: Humor.

Seems the movie want to show us, that old age is a miserable place. But the spice in the Indiana Jones movies, including Crystal Skull always was the humor. Waller-Bridges has some few lines and moments. But not funny enough to give that tragic cruel and deadly body count story the required lightness, that all the previous movies had.

[Bespin 8,484]

I read a tweet from a French critic describing Mangold as a predominantly mainstream 'heterosexual' director who crafts somewhat 'basic' films targeting a rather homogeneous audience. Undoubtedly, there exists an audience appreciative of this type of movie. Occasionally, one simply craves a grand, uncomplicated action film replete with action sequences, violence, and recurring instances of killing. Mangold has consistently stated his intention to deconstruct the character of Indiana Jones, and in my view, he has indeed achieved this goal.

 

Personally, I've always been somewhat drawn to directors with a strong artistic sensibility, those who can infuse their films with elements of dream, magic, and mystery. Mangold does not fall into that category. I'm concerned that if he directs a Star Wars movie, it will also be a 'deconstruction'.

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

4 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

Personally, I've always been somewhat drawn to directors with a strong artistic sensibility, those who can infuse their films with elements of dream, magic, and mystery.

 

Just like Mangold did.

[JTN 2,048]

I will never watch Dial of Destiny. Without Lucas and Spielberg there is no Indiana Jones film for me. 

 

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, JTW said:

I will never watch Dial of Destiny. Without Lucas and Spielberg there is no Indiana Jones film for me. 

 

 

Well this one is at least better than KOTCS. 

[Edmilson 7,474]

Indeed, but that's not really that much of an accomplishment. It's like saying "Well, at the very least the movie is better than The Last Airbender".

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Wish Giacchino scored this instead. Would’ve made for hilarious enraged reactions whenever he tries to score any of the action set pieces.

[JTN 2,048]

12 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Indeed, but that's not really that much of an accomplishment. It's like saying "Well, at the very least the movie is better than The Last Airbender".

Exactly. Plus Ford was already too old to play Indy in KotCS at 66. 
An 80-year-old Indiana Jones is simply not what the character is about. Heck, he was almost too old in TLC. 
This type of an action-adventure films need to have a young guy in the lead. Ford was 38-39 when he made Raiders and 41-42 when he made Temple. That was the ideal age for Indy’s character, and Ford was at the peak of his physical shape and his acting abilities. He still was at 46-47 when making Last Crusade, but his face already started to look more mature, a little bit older. 
But Indiana Jones as a bitter 80-year-old man getting knocked out by his own goddaughter less than half his age is something I never want to see. And I guess most of the audience didn’t, either, since it became one of the biggest flops in Disney and film history. 

[GerateWohl 4,382]

Maybe it is also Ford's fault. His word seems to have a lot of weight in the making of these movies. And he probably takes everything and his character so seriously recently. And he didn't want to play some kind of comic relief. 

And to be honest, wandering through that plot, where all people around him, who he knows, get murdered, except his god daughter, which betrayes him permanently, I would be miserable, too.

After all one can state, this is the darkest Indy movie ever. I like this one least.

But still the score is great.

[ddddeeee 259]

I rewatched it for the first time since seeing it in cinema. I liked it before, but I really like it now.

 

I do still hate the opening. The deaging CGI is gross and having such a Spielberg-inspired opening really exposes how Berg runs rings around...everyone...when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

But once it settles into its own thing after the prologue, I really dig it. The idea that one of these things commits to a message of 'Stop living in the past' is genuinely interesting, and, yes, more than a little hypocritical - but still. I find the ending really moving.

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

8 hours ago, JTW said:

An 80-year-old Indiana Jones is simply not what the character is about. 

 

I don't see the problem of adding new layers to the story, and not making the movie a copy of the previous ones.

 

8 hours ago, JTW said:

Heck, he was almost too old in TLC. 

 

What the heck?

 

6 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

except his god daughter, which betrayes him permanently

 

What?

 

12 minutes ago, ddddeeee said:

I do still hate the opening. The deaging CGI is gross and having such a Spielberg-inspired opening really exposes how Berg runs rings around...everyone...when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

I love the opening! I think the deaging was performed very well. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,806]

 

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I think the deaging was performed very well. 

 

There's a reason this shot was featured so prominently in the previews. It's one of the only convincing ones. And it helps a lot that he doesn't talk.

 

12 hours ago, JTW said:

Ford was already too old to play Indy in KotCS at 66. 
An 80-year-old Indiana Jones is simply not what the character is about.

Heroes can age too, but I prefer to see them do so gracefully, and don't appreciate the current trend of turning them into sad, pathetic versions of their former selves. Nobody wanted Indy "deconstructed", and the box office numbers prove it. People turned out once for curiosity, but how many, aside from the diehards, went back multiple times?

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

There's a reason this shot was featured so prominently in the previews. It's one of the only convincing ones. And it helps a lot that he doesn't talk.

 

I agree that his aged voice was a giveaway, but I was talking about the CGI deaging, which I found convincing. 

 

12 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

don't appreciate the current trend of turning them into sad, pathetic versions of their former selves.

 

I think the old, disillusioned angle can give lots of fun moments, like in this film. Besides, I've always seen Indy as a bit of a grumpster, so it makes sense that this trait has become stronger with age.

 

12 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Heroes can age too

 

Indeed. I'm still around. 😎

[JTN 2,048]

2 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

People turned out once for curiosity, but how many, aside from the diehards, went back multiple times?

0.

[Alex 2,835]

I have ended up seeing this film four times (not necessarily by choice), and I am satisfied that it’s absolutely fine. Harrison Ford is great and has plenty to do, PWB is no more annoying than Kate Capshaw in ToD and the de-aging is great in some cases (the inside of the train mainly) but is pretty jarring in others. Mads Mikkelsen, of course, is super as Classic Mads Mikkelsen Villain.

 

The only real problem I had was the end of the Syracuse battle was clearly either shot on the two different days, in front of a green screen or completely reshot, because Harrison Ford and PWB are either not outside or not together for a lot of that scene (when they’re talking to __________) and it’s obvious.

[Tom 4,673]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

 PWB is no more annoying than Kate Capshaw in ToD

The difference is that one movie treats her as annoying and the other doesn't seem to realize that she is annoying.  

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

20 minutes ago, Alex said:

I have ended up seeing this film four times (not necessarily by choice), and I am satisfied that it’s absolutely fine. Harrison Ford is great and has plenty to do, PWB is no more annoying than Kate Capshaw in ToD and the de-aging is great in some cases (the inside of the train mainly) but is pretty jarring in others. Mads Mikkelsen, of course, is super as Classic Mads Mikkelsen Villain.

 

The only real problem I had was the end of the Syracuse battle was clearly either shot on the two different days, in front of a green screen or completely reshot, because Harrison Ford and PWB are either not outside or not together for a lot of that scene (when they’re talking to __________) and it’s obvious.

 

Of course they had to use a green screen as Arkimedes lived 2000 years ago.

[mstrox 6,651]

They time traveled to ancient Syracuse for production, but couldn’t afford to for the reshoots.

[Alex 2,835]

 

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Of course they had to use a green screen as Arkimedes lived 2000 years ago.

What I meant is that there were actual set photos of PWB and Harrison Ford on that hill, but there were shots in that scene where they didn’t even look like they were outside, or even next to each other.

 

2 hours ago, Tom said:

The difference is that one movie treats her as annoying and the other doesn't seem to realize that she is annoying.  

Is she really that annoying though? I mean, really? She’s certainly not the most complex or interesting character, sure, but I didn’t find myself irritated by her. Maybe it’s because I was a fan of PWB before, I don’t know. Fleabag is great.

 

 

[Bespin 8,484]

The de-aging on Arkimedes was astonishing.

[Edmilson 7,474]

On 10/12/2023 at 1:49 AM, ThePenitentMan1 said:

the movie ends with Sabrina finally finding a perfect young woman to fall in love with, while Linus dies of a broken heart without ever seeing her again blissfully reuniting with Linus in a hastily put-together ending that was added in reshoots after poor test audience results.

Fixed. The studio will try to make it "appeal to current sensibilities" to "attract a younger audience" but it'll be so poorly received on social media that they'll have to quickly re-shoot the ending.

 

4 minutes ago, Bespin said:

The de-aging on Arkimedes was astonishing.

I know, right? They literally dug Archimedes' grave, wherever that is, and used artificial intelligence to turn his centuries-old remains into his younger self. 

 

If this movie doesn't get the Oscar for Best Visual Effects I'll be pissed.

[JTN 2,048]

On 19/12/2023 at 9:55 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

People turned out once for curiosity

Apparently not many of them did once, either. 

[Tom 4,673]

4 hours ago, Tom said:

The difference is that one movie treats her as annoying and the other doesn't seem to realize that she is annoying.  

Perhaps annoying is not the best word.  Whatever the word is for someone who laughs when an innocent person, who is also friends with the person standing next to her, is killed--she is that.  

[Faleel 5,365]

52 minutes ago, Tom said:

Perhaps annoying is not the best word.  Whatever the word is for someone who laughs when an innocent person, who is also friends with the person standing next to her, is killed--she is that.  

Tone-deaf, flippant?

 

Superficial?

Shallow?

Flighty?

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Of course they had to use a green screen as Arkimedes lived 2000 years ago.

 

Don't be an idiot. They didn't have green screens 2000 years ago. Everyone knows that.

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

I meant blue screens.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

19 hours ago, Alex said:

 Mads Mikkelsen, of course, is super as Classic Mads Mikkelsen Villain.

 

Hard disagree. I love Mads, but thought he was completely wasted in this. Excellent casting that nonetheless represents the biggest lost opportunity since Christoph Waltz was equally and criminally wasted as Blofeld.

 

17 hours ago, Alex said:

Is she really that annoying though? I mean, really?

 

Yeah. Yeah, she really is. If for no other reason than the "I'm Daring, beautiful & self-sufficient" line.

 

Punching Indy and dragging him back to the future, thus robbing him of his own agency, didn't help. No one will ever convince me that ending didn't undergo significant revisions.

 

13 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I meant blue screens.

 

Ah, well OK then. That's different. Older tech.

[Haasch 9]

You know what really robbed him of his agency? The bloke who shot him in the chest.

[Alex 2,835]

14 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Punching Indy and dragging him back to the future, thus robbing him of his own agency, didn't help. No one will ever convince me that ending didn't undergo significant revisions.

 

Now this I do agree with to some extent. I definitely think he stays in early cuts of the film.

[greenturnedblue 372]

You guys think Indy was going to stay in the past, but they were able to bring Marion's actress back last minute. So Indy had to come back to the present for them to share a scene together? Remember JW said he had to score "a new ending"

[TolkienSS 407]

1 hour ago, greenturnedblue said:

You guys think Indy was going to stay in the past, but they were able to bring Marion's actress back last minute. So Indy had to come back to the present for them to share a scene together? Remember JW said he had to score "a new ending"

 

They had to bring her back to shoot a slightly less terrible ending.

They didn't do massive reshoots because they weren't able to get Karen Allen 🤣

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

It was never the plan to let Indy stay in the past. That would mean he ran away from his problems, unacceptably tainting his character. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It was never the plan to let Indy stay in the past. That would mean he ran away from his problems, unacceptably tainting his character. 

Well, he was going to do that anyways..

 

It's like a damned if you do damned if you don't. Stay in the past, and he is running away from his problems. Helena knocks him out and brings him back, and he is robbed of his agency and free will