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John Powell's SOLO: A STAR WARS STORY (2018) - Deluxe Edition 2020 / Intrada 2-CD edition October 31, 2023


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8 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

I sincerely doubt Williams would ever say something like that. He's too much of a professional.

Hasn't he always been respectful of his fellow composers?

 

So according to you he should be lying when asked what he thought of this particular score? (which really is rather poor, especially when it plays to picture)

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I am sure when he was sitting with Newman, Goldsmith, Jones, Schifrin and so on in the old Fox bungalows, there were some juicy choice words about other colleague's work, especially the less-than-thrilling ones.

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2 hours ago, Bilbo said:

Some people on here have this weird image of Williams that he must be a kind of saint who wouldn’t dare say a bad word about anybody. 

I have this image that Williams is a genuinely good person first and foremost and an incredibly gifted composer second.

There are plenty of composers who have rather colourful personalities and can be harsh in their opinions at times.

I'm thinking Bernard Hermann, Danny Elfman and to some extent Jerry Goldsmith, Hans Zimmer and James Horner.

However, as far as I have ever been able to tell, Williams is different there.

And I respect him even more because of that!

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1 hour ago, publicist said:

Cop-out. 

You're welcome to believe what you want to. You may even be right.

Would you do me the same courtesy and let me believe what I want? :)

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

But really, does anyone really care?

I sure don't!

Thanks for the entertaining discussion.

It's been fun. :lol:

 

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

That's being complimentary, all things considered. ;)

 

It's bizarre that people believe Williams is incapable of passing criticism about other composer's works. He might indulge in platitudes for the cameras but behind closed doors his finger is on the pulse of modern sensibilities and, to close friends and collaborators, he'd say exactly how he feels (especially on other composers interpreting his work -- especially if he didn't like the results).

 

We also know he's very involved with Star Wars music beyond his scores and we know from Giacchino that he's heard Rogue One. If he wasn't a fan of the score then he did the sensible thing: told Kennedy his honest thoughts (which were probably solicited), why he felt that way, and recommended another composer he believed would better reflect the musical sensibilities of the series. What is disrespectful about that? Should he only lavish effusive praise, regardless of his actual opinion, just so people don't get their feelings hurt? Ridiculous and unrealistic, especially in Hollywood (doubly so with a ruthless operator like Kennedy in charge, who clearly wouldn't appreciate such nonsense).

 

It's also perfectly likely he wrote to Gia and told him the things he liked about his score, glossing over the things he didn't.

Could be.

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Very interesting story. Like Peter, I'll admit I'm rather bothered by it.

 

From reading through that FSM thread I'd imagine that this is less about Giacchino in particular and more about Williams having trouble watching someone use his themes in a major film. It's like how George Lucas was sore about TFA (and perhaps about the later films, too). 

 

I don't think anyone, even Williams, can truly judge the quality of a score from one viewing of the film. Perhaps he listened to the OST afterwards as well, but if not that's a pretty weak basis to give an honest analysis. Thus, I can only conclude that Williams would likely have criticized the score no matter who did it (although that doesn't rule out him finding less to criticize if Desplat had done it!) 

 

Williams reportedly barely listens to music or watches movies these days, much less contemporary films and film music, so I'd be very surprised if he'd heard enough Desplat, Powell, and Giacchino to think that the former two were significantly more nuanced and skilled than the latter. 

 

I suppose we've always known that Williams can have negative emotions (e.g. the brief Boston Pops disrespect debacle) but I'd been hopeful he'd gotten over them in his old age. :lol:

 

As I said yesterday, I still think it's exciting to see Williams engaging with the next generation of composers. But it's also a little disturbing that he's allowed himself to be bothered enough by a score after, apparently, only one viewing of the film, that he recommended a different composer for the next one. Of course, I suppose I can't really complain, since I want to hear as many different composers get their shot at SW as possible. ;)

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50 minutes ago, Will said:

I suppose we've always known that Williams can have negative emotions (e.g. the brief Boston Pops disrespect debacle) but I'd been hopeful he'd gotten over them in his old age. :lol:

What is this debacle you speak of?

 

I'm honestly not sure what to think of it.

On the one hand, your story makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, I think even Williams himself would want to be above such negative emotions.

 

But I suppose, as much as he is a genuine hero to me, both in what he accomplishes in his music and as a human being, he is still a human being.

As such, not even the great John Williams is perfect.

 

But I strongly believe that he does aim for it, on both the musical and personal front.

I know how tough that is and, for that, he has my everlasting respect.

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17 hours ago, crocodile said:

Or Ahch-To. ;)

 

In any case, it's his right. He created the SW sound and it makes sense for him to call what is and what isn't right for the series. Maybe he sees more versatility in composers like Desplat, Powell or Newman. They clearly at least attempt to reach beyond the film music tropes whereas Giacchino seems to be more of a "film music" educated crowd. Hard to say really. Or maybe he simply wants artists to find their own voice and reinterpret certain ideas in unique ways. Many artists tend to get offended by emulations and pastiches of their own work. After all inspiring the creativity is way more rewarding rather than someone merely approximating certain style. Just like imitating someone's accent, it simply isn't terribly flattering.

 

Karol

 

Lol, bullshit. 

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5 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

You're welcome to believe what you want to. You may even be right.

Would you do me the same courtesy and let me believe what I want? :)

 

Again, read what me and others wrote to clarify the situation whereas you muddy the waters with even more broad beside-the-points that are either by poor wording or just plain misconception of the situation at hand blown out of any sensible proportion. Nobody dissed anyone publicly - you just heard some inside gossip, which spread every day on thousands of subjects. Is that so hard to understand/accept?

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30 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Again, read what me and others wrote to clarify the situation whereas you muddy the waters with even more broad beside-the-points that are either by poor wording or just plain misconception of the situation at hand blown out of any sensible proportion. Nobody dissed anyone publicly - you just heard some inside gossip, which spread every day on thousands of subjects. Is that so hard to understand/accept?

I muddy nothing. Or at least, I am specifically trying not to!

I say we are dealing with rumours and conjecture that suggest a theory.

I have done so in a respectful way that acknowledges the theory may be accurate.

I have seen no proof to the contrary, nor have I seen proof in support.

It's as simple as that.

 

Edit: Re-reading your posts above, aren't you saying exactly the same thing?

It seems we agree more than we think! :lol:

 

Edit 2: To clarify even further, I disagree with the theory being proposed.

I do not believe it is true as it doesn't fit with the public facts that I know.

I also do not want it to be true, because I would be a bit disappointed in Williams as a person if it were.

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On 2/10/2013 at 7:16 PM, Blumenkohl said:

I do want to express my direct reaction to Williams' comments, unpopular as it might be:

It completely rubs me the wrong way.

The entire focus of the new Star Wars trilogy is to transition the franchise into the hands of a new generation. Even George "IT'S MINE, ALL MINE, I CAN DO WITH IT WHAT I CHOOSE" Lucas has stepped back and is handing it off to relatively younger people.

And here is John going "OH I CAN'T WAIT TO WORK ON IT!"

It just doesn't strike me as particularly classy, on several levels. Chiefly, he's not elegantly handing off a torch to future generations, he's not saying "I've done my bit for king and country, I'll let rising talent take a shot at it." He's basically muscling his way into screwing over anyone that may or may not be selected to score the film after him. Because now we know the old lovely man wanted to score it, and some youngin stole it from him.

Second the assumption that he will be involved comes off as arrogant. Yes, you are Star Wars John, but being a little modest about it would be so much more likable. Feign it, say "I'd love to work on it if I am invited to do so, but I'm also interested in hearing what fresh talent could do with Star Wars."

All in all It's a bit cringe worthy. It's like that stalker ex that just doesn't know when to quit. Everyone else is looking forward to the fresh direction, and he's still like "I'm gonna score it!"

You greedy son of a gun Johnny. I can see how you cleverly manipulated your way into screwing over Patrick Doyle with the whole Stepmom fiasco.

 

6 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

As much as I adore Williams and his Star Wars scores (they're the reason I got into film music), it might be heresy to say, but Star Wars does not belong to John Williams. If George Lucas could let it go, Williams certainly can.

 

Of course I think he should have first right of refusal on scoring any of these movies, no one will ever make Star Wars music like John Williams.  But otherwise I think he should step back and allow other composers to do as they will. I hope this report rumour unverified gossip isn't true, or if it is true I hope it's being mischaracterised. 

 

Fucking seriously? You got your knickers in a bunch over my post over 4 years ago!

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2 hours ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

 

Fucking seriously? You got your knickers in a bunch over my post over 4 years ago!

 

Huh?  I think what you said then and what I'm saying now are very different things.

 

But wait! Now that you bring it up, I remember! Didn't you insist that JJ Abrams had something in his contract that stipulated Gia had to score TFA?

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19 hours ago, MikeH said:

I'm sure he's just as opinionated as Goldsmith, Barry, Herrmann, and Horner were...

 

Hah, I don't see him being as opinionated as Herrmann. His level of disdain for certain things was unique.

 

Strikes me as unfair to judge Gia's abilities for a SW score based on something he only had a few weeks to write and was under who knows what instruction from the director. Williams had months and months for TFA and TLJ. It's really not a very fair comparison.

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15 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

Edit 2: To clarify even further, I disagree with the theory being proposed.

I do not believe it is true as it doesn't fit with the public facts that I know.

I also do not want it to be true, because I would be a bit disappointed in Williams as a person if it were.

 

There is no 'theory', just inside gossip, and your whole strange reasoning i singled out not because you have no right to be disappointed in JW but because the basis of this disappointment suggests that you demand Williams to be dishonest to his colleagues so that he can stay in your good graces. Which is rather weird, don't you think?

 

Again, and there is no way getting around this, if composer X is asked to informally give an opinion on composer Y's work - which is not 'highly unlikely' in this case - and he forms one, good, indifferent or bad - why do you insist that the opinion should only be voiced when positive?

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I have no reason to doubt SchiffyM over at FSM, as he seems to be one of the most well-industry-sourced (and reasonable) people on that board.

 

I wouldn't doubt that Williams wasn't bowled over by Rogue One.  I like the score a lot, but it doesn't have that certain oomph that Williams gives his Star Wars scores.  I'm not sure many COULD pull that off.  The movie is full of war setpieces, but there's not really anything in the score that bowls you over like TIE Fighter Attack, Asteroid Belt, Forest Battle, Escape from Naboo, Arena Battle, Scherzo for X-Wings, etc etc.

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3 hours ago, publicist said:

There is no 'theory', just inside gossip

Rumours, in any case. My point exactly.

 

3 hours ago, publicist said:

your whole strange reasoning i singled out not because you have no right to be disappointed in JW but because the basis of this disappointment suggests that you demand Williams to be dishonest to his colleagues so that he can stay in your good graces. Which is rather weird, don't you think?

We are only talking "very tiny disappointment" here and I have every right to feel that way.

My reasons are my own and they are valid for me.

I tried to explain them, but you don't need to understand them nor agree with them.

It is your right to feel the way you do for your reasons, just like it is my right to do the same for my own reasons.

 

This is all purely hypothetical anyway.

It only applies IF the rumour is true, which I do not believe for a second.

Nobody will convince me otherwise, unless there are verifiable facts that support it.

 

Either way, my opinion does nobody any harm.

 

4 hours ago, publicist said:

Again, and there is no way getting around this, if composer X is asked to informally give an opinion on composer Y's work - which is not 'highly unlikely' in this case - and he forms one, good, indifferent or bad - why do you insist that the opinion should only be voiced when positive?

Virtually anything can be voiced in a positive and constructive way.

And I believe John Williams is the kind of person who would aim to do so whenever possible.

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21 minutes ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

Virtually anything can be voiced in a positive and constructive way.

And I believe John Williams is the kind of person who would aim to do so whenever possible.

 

And? Nobody ever claimed JW said 'fuck the tosser' or anything. The 'positive and constructive' way of saying it is 'well, this sure was different than i would have done. Please hire Desplat or Powell if you want better*ahemm* different music'. Result? About the same.

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5 hours ago, publicist said:

 

Again, and there is no way getting around this, if composer X is asked to informally give an opinion on composer Y's work - which is not 'highly unlikely' in this case - and he forms one, good, indifferent or bad - why do you insist that the opinion should only be voiced when positive?

 

I don't know, politeness? If you can't say anything nice...etc. etc.

 

Yeah, yeah. I know, let's get real this is Hollywood, and even Williams is player and won't hesitate to speak his mind. I believe that. But I think even if this gossip is true, there is the possibility for nuance, and that whoever is reporting it wasn't privy to whatever was said in context.

 

"I enjoyed listening to Michael's score for Star Wars. He made some choices I would not have and maybe used my themes in ways I didn't intend, but it's difficult to build on someone else's work, especially on a tight schedule. I'm sure given another chance he'll do better"

 

vs.

 

"I didn't appreciate what Giacchino did with my music in that film. It's as if he doesn't understand it at all. Do what you wish, Kathy, but I think he may be unsuited for Star Wars."

 

In one case he's a nice person using some discretion, in another he's a prick throwing a colleague under the bus (if not blackballing him). Who knows what Williams actually said, if anything. Two people could have heard the exact same conversation and came away with different impressions. And if the information is coming second hand, all bets are off.

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See above. No one except some touchy people here ever suggested Williams expressed himself in an unpolite or uncollegial way. But if the score didn't sit too well with him, what people expect him to do? 

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509983ca499cd-education-through-music-s-

 

Perhaps they met at this function?

 

Education Through Music had its 7th Annual Benefit Gala honoring composer John Williams and music teacherLinda Mouradian at the Skirball Cultural Center which helped to raise more than $150,000 for music education in the Los Angeles Unified School District.  After theShining Star Awards were presented and a live auction with Michael Giacchino, special guests artists Lynn Harrell on cello, Joanne Pearce Martin on piano and Bing Wang on violin gave an incredible performance of music composed by John Williams.

 

http://www.lasplash.com/publish/Los_Angeles_Charities_188/education-through-music-s-7th-annual-benefit-gala-review.php

 

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55 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

I don't know, politeness? If you can't say anything nice...etc. etc.

 

Yeah, yeah. I know, let's get real this is Hollywood, and even Williams is player and won't hesitate to speak his mind. I believe that. But I think even if this gossip is true, there is the possibility for nuance, and that whoever is reporting it wasn't privy to whatever was said in context.

 

"I enjoyed listening to Michael's score for Star Wars. He made some choices I would not have and maybe used my themes in ways I didn't intend, but it's difficult to build on someone else's work, especially on a tight schedule. I'm sure given another chance he'll do better"

 

vs.

 

"I didn't appreciate what Giacchino did with my music in that film. It's as if he doesn't understand it at all. Do what you wish, Kathy, but I think he may be unsuited for Star Wars."

 

In one case he's a nice person using some discretion, in another he's a prick throwing a colleague under the bus (if not blackballing him). Who knows what Williams actually said, if anything. Two people could have heard the exact same conversation and came away with different impressions. And if the information is coming second hand, all bets are off.

He might have simply said "shall we try something/someone different for the next film?" for all we know. We don't even know if he said anything at all or whether the person who claims to have heard it simply interprets it as such and such. We really know nothing beyond the fact he recommended a couple of composers for the job.

 

Going back to Powell... almost finished listening to Ferdinand and can see why he's a good candidate to do the job. The score isn't one of his greatest works and doesn't necessarily establish any memorable thematic material as such (it's fine) but it's very solid piece of music nonetheless.

 

Karol

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