The Phantom Menace vs. Attack of the Clones vs. Revenge of the Sith

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

The whole arena sequence is marvellous.

 

Yeah, that was pretty cool. Well, at least when the Jedi first intervene: I don't much care for the John Carter-meets-Gladiator part. There's a shot, after the Banth scratches Padme, of the Viceroy grinning like a schoolboy and its absolutely unforgivable. C3PO's antics throughout the sequence are likewise painful, and then when the clones comes-in it becomes a muddle.

 

I actually think the success of the film is early on, in quieter scenes on Curoscant. I do like the stark difference of epic cityscapes of the prequel trilogy, and the more claustrophic sets of the classic trilogy: it makes you kinda miss Coruscant, and so to have gotten a good dollop of it here was really important. You want to get a feel for what the republic is like before its lost.

[BB-8 3,480]

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but is anyone considering the Episode I rescreening early May 2024 (25th Anniversary)?

 

 

[Smeltington 1,440]

I might go. But is this the only film you can see on its own, apart from the upcoming theatrical Star Wars marathon? I'd probably go see all the prequels, but I don't want to see the current editions of the OT, and probably not enough time has passed to bother seeing the ST.

[Bellosh 3,419]

TPM is my favorite Prequel movie.

 

First SW movie I saw in theaters.

 

I didn't give a shit about SW at the time, but I loved that movie so much.  Sure I didn't understand a lick of the politics, but it had Anakin and Darth Maul.  I remember loving the concept of Darth Vader as a kid (stay mad Prequel haters) It kinda blew my brain.

 

also Star Wars Episode 1: Pod Racer for N64 was rented and re-rented from Blockbuster so many times they might as well let me own it.

 

That said....haven't seen this movie in forever...but the Prequels are so fun to go back to, unlike the DT.  Wanna know why? Cause ultimately, even with all the warts, they are a labor of love.

[Schilkeman 964]

On 26/03/2024 at 7:43 PM, Bellosh said:

I remember loving the concept of Darth Vader as a kid

The older I get, and the older my kids get, I am more and more appreciative of the decision to start with kid Anakin, and of the fact that Jake Loyd did not act like a precocious child actor. His delivery is equal parts imitative, genuine, and clueless, just like the nine-year-olds I know in real life.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I don't have a problem conceptually with setting the film as early in Anakin's life as Lucas had: I think it would have worked better if Anakin were that little bit older: maybe eleven like Harry Potter? Twelve?

 

Since the film is so removed from the rest, it functions more as a prelude than as an episode, which is fine...except at 132 minutes its a little on the long side for a prelude: Lucas should have tightened it to a brisk 90-something minutes for it to function in that way.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,544]

On 26/03/2024 at 3:54 PM, BB-8 said:

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but is anyone considering the Episode I rescreening early May 2024 (25th Anniversary)?

 

 

 

If it comes to where I live, then definitely.

I've heard that the OT, and the PT are getting rereleased.

[Trent B 337]

I just wish we'd get complete score releases for the Prequels already. Disney must know by now that there's pretty much a huge demand for them.

[Smaug The Iron 516]

I know it is probably not likely but I have a feeling that the John Williams release from Intrada will be The Phantom Menace for its 25th anniversary in May. They just did Solo so who knows. But it is probably a fools hope. 

[Schilkeman 964]

On 28/03/2024 at 9:05 PM, Trent B said:

I just wish we'd get complete score releases for the Prequels already. Disney must know by now that there's pretty much a huge demand for them

I don't envy anyone who would have to put this together. The prequel scores are so chopped up in some of the action scenes. How do you present that? And, as always, I think the super fans on JWFan over-estimate the general desire for really long deluxe expansions. I'd love to be wrong, but I think if it doesn't happen in the next three years, it probably never will.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

42 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

The prequel scores are so chopped up in some of the action scenes. How do you present that?

 

You don't. The handful of folks that like "film edits" for whatever reason would inevitably be a bit disappointed, but editing together the music as-recorded is quite simple actually, and still provides a relatively good listening experience. It's the sequel scores that I'd be more concerned with.

[Datameister 2,044]

57 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

You don't. The handful of folks that like "film edits" for whatever reason would inevitably be a bit disappointed, but editing together the music as-recorded is quite simple actually, and still provides a relatively good listening experience. It's the sequel scores that I'd be more concerned with.

 

Yep. Complete programs for the prequels would be pretty easy. Complete programs for the sequels … oof. Nightmare. (But one I still fervently hope happens during my lifetime!)

[crumbs 14,317]

Wouldn't it be nice if an expanded version of The Phantom Menace just appeared out of nowhere alongside the theatrical re-release? Won't happen of course, seeing as Disney seem desperate to do nothing with these scores, while preventing anyone else from touching them either.

 

I wonder if Mondo would have more luck triggering expansions than Intrada? Disney seem happy to take their bucketloads of cash in exchange for limited edition vinyl pressings, which seems to be what happened with Rogue One. And Mondo hired Mike to assemble the Hook vinyl, so presumably he'd be hired for expanded SW vinyls...

 

WDR just seem totally uninterested in pursuing this themselves, but Mondo might have more luck?

[enderdrag64 624]

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

Wouldn't it be nice if an expanded version of The Phantom Menace just appeared out of nowhere alongside the theatrical re-release? Won't happen of course, seeing as Disney seem desperate to do nothing with these scores, while preventing anyone else from touching them either.

 

I wonder if Mondo would have more luck triggering expansions than Intrada? Disney seem happy to take their bucketloads of cash in exchange for limited edition vinyl pressings, which seems to be what happened with Rogue One. And Mondo hired Mike to assemble the Hook vinyl, so presumably he'd be hired for expanded SW vinyls...

 

WDR just seem totally uninterested in pursuing this themselves, but Mondo might have more luck?

Rogue One also happened due to the theatrical rerelease iirc, at least they both came out around the same time

[Edmilson 7,466]

On 28/03/2024 at 7:16 AM, Chen G. said:

Lucas should have tightened it to a brisk 90-something minutes for it to function in that way.

Agreed. It doesn't even need to be just a 90-minute movie, I think at 105-110 minutes (without credits) would make the movie more enjoyable and efficient - especially for kids, who were (part of) the target audience. But yeah, a lot of people who saw this at ages 6/7/8 etc loved the experience, so anyway.

 

TPM and AOTC are the two Prequels that I think could've been slightly shorter. Either way, I'm not complaining they're over 2 hours long - more John Williams music!

[crumbs 14,317]

9 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Rogue One also happened due to the theatrical rerelease iirc, at least they both came out around the same time

 

Maybe pitching to Mondo to approach Disney about a tie-in vinyl expansion of TPM is an easier sell for the bean counters at WDR. They'd sell like hot cakes even at a stupid price.

 

Pitching WDR directly about expansions seems like a dead end, for whatever reason. I've come to the conclusion there's no other explanation, considering they own 14 JW scores and not a single one has been expanded. No other studio holds such an embarrassing record.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

On 09/04/2024 at 3:53 AM, Schilkeman said:

I don't envy anyone who would have to put this together. The prequel scores are so chopped up in some of the action scenes. How do you present that? And, as always, I think the super fans on JWFan over-estimate the general desire for really long deluxe expansions. I'd love to be wrong, but I think if it doesn't happen in the next three years, it probably never will.

 

As far as chopped up sequences: largely irrelevant - you generally don't present tracking/editing/etc in these sets. Only if a prominent sequence were created using stem elements would I expect there to be some consideration over whether to recreate or use the film stem to include it. (i.e. I don't agree with a blanket 'no tracking' rule - you have to consider prominent cues on individual basis)

 

I suspect that the desire to have super-deluxe all encompassing sets is probably limited to communities like this, but I'd say that only goes as far as how wide ranging the bonus section is. There's a difference between presenting all major alternates, and presenting every single variation Williams recorded, catering for different inserts and refining orchestration. I don't for one second envy the task ahead of a producer when deciding what and how to include.

[bored 309]

On 09/04/2024 at 10:20 AM, Edmilson said:

Agreed. It doesn't even need to be just a 90-minute movie, I think at 105-110 minutes (without credits) would make the movie more enjoyable and efficient

 

I think cutting out TPM movie would have made the series more efficient.

[Schilkeman 964]

On 10/04/2024 at 3:07 PM, bored said:

I think cutting out TPM movie would have made the series more efficient.

The part of my brain that is a (maybe) broken media purist says just watch Star Wars. It's all you need.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

On 10/04/2024 at 12:07 PM, bored said:

 

I think cutting out TPM movie would have made the series more efficient.

 

Time to plug Machete Order again!

 

IV -> V -> II-> III -> VI -> Everything Else

 

I also just read this article on it; I love the way it explains things!

 

Quote

What I really like about omitting Episode I is the fact that instead of showing us the early days of Anakin, and the battle with the Trade Federation, they are simply alluded to. It's not that we don't need to know that story, but think about the first time you watched A New Hope. You immediately knew that there was a great backstory, but it didn't need to be told in order for you to enjoy it. When you get to Episode II, you have that same feeling.

 

Read More: https://www.slashgear.com/why-star-wars-machete-order-is-the-definitive-way-to-view-the-films-16418673

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

By that logic, you could cut the original and just watch The Empire Strikes Back...

 

The plot of the classic trilogy doesn't really start until a good halfway into Empire. Its only there that a bigger conflict with the Emperor is set-up: "Only a fully-trained Jedi knight, with the Force as his ally, could conquer Vader and his Emperor."

 

Both trilogies, to varying extent, have this presentation of a prelude, plus a more closely-knit duology of films. In both cases, its probably the result of a lack of forethought on the part of Lucas, although for different reasons.

[bored 309]

I would say one of my biggest issues with the prequels is how disconnected each of them feel. There is a disconnect between A New Hope and Empire, but there's still a strong connection in that our characters are more or less the same people as they were from the last film (their introduction), and A New Hope sets up Luke's hatred for Vader in Empire, his connection to Obi-Wan, and how he already knows of the force and the Jedi. 

 

Whereas you don't need TPM as Maul is barely (if ever) mentioned again, Qui-Gon is only alluded to in the latter two, and even then Yoda was originally written as Obi-Wan's only master anyway, and Anakin (and even Obi-Wan to a certain extent) is a completely different person by the second movie so his introduction was worthless. All it showed that sets up the second film is Anakin's connection with his mother which isn't even that convincing in my eyes anyway in TPM. Plus everyone's kind of introduced in the second film anyway. 

 

Even the third film has the same problem. It has a bit more connection to the previous with the same villain (dying immediately), and Anakin being more similar than from 1 to 2, but considering how the context from the second film makes the third film worse, the movie works better overall as its own thing, separated from the other two. 

[Schilkeman 964]

8 hours ago, bored said:

I would say one of my biggest issues with the prequels is how disconnected each of them feel. There is a disconnect between A New Hope and Empire, but there's still a strong connection in that our characters are more or less the same people as they were from the last film

I don't know. Luke in RotJ has clearly matured from the previous film, about on par with Anakin from II to III. I always saw the space between episodes as a feature, not a bug. The whole idea of Star Wars was that it was part of serial you were coming into having missed a few episodes. The sense of not fully grasping what is going on is part of the flavor of the series, and having the jumps of time and character development between episodes is a way of maintaining that feeling. It also, if I'm arguing in good faith, gave George more space for his jazzman tendencies. 

8 hours ago, bored said:

All it showed that sets up the second film is Anakin's connection with his mother

It sets up the entire state of the galaxy, brings Palpatine to power, shows the corruption of the Senate, sets up the Sith/Jedi conflict, leads directly to the Clone Wars, the end of the Republic and the Jedi, and is overall an expository thesis statement on the entire philosophy of Star Wars, but sure, cut it, whatever. It's got Jar Jar. It sucks. Who's got time for exposition? I'm on that grind. /s

[bored 309]

26 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

It sets up the entire state of the galaxy, brings Palpatine to power, shows the corruption of the Senate, sets up the Sith/Jedi conflict, leads directly to the Clone Wars, the end of the Republic and the Jedi, and is overall an expository thesis statement on the entire philosophy of Star Wars, but sure, cut it, whatever. It's got Jar Jar. It sucks. Who's got time for exposition? I'm on that grind. /s

 

I knew this would come. The old cop-out. "It's too smart for you. You just want action. You hate exposition." This could not be further from the truth. My favorite Star Wars story by far, is Knights of the Old Republic 2. And I hate the action gameplay of the game. But I love the story, the exposition, the characters, the acting, the music, the atmosphere, and above all, the philosophy and the gorgeous dialogue. And that game is at least 15 times the length of The Phantom Menace. If anyone's got time for exposition when it comes to Star Wars, it's me.

 

My problems with the TPM, is it doesn't delve into any of what you speak of. It doesn't set up the state of the galaxy. It's called the Republic but it seems to function more like the UN. I don't know what the Trade Federation want besides something about taxation that is never specified in favor of action. I don't know what threat the Trade Federation pose because we never see or hear of them doing anything truly horrific. Yes they unlawfully invade, and they say Naboo's people are dying, but we don't know why or how, besides some vague notion of a blockade maybe causing starvation, or maybe the droids are murdering citizens. 

 

It doesn't set up the Sith/Jedi conflict. Palpatine and Maul talk about wanting revenge but we are never told what the revenge is for. We don't even know if the revenge is history related or personal for Palpatine and Maul. We don't even know what the Sith are besides an assumption that they're the Jedi but bad! Oh and they were extinct for whatever reason. It doesn't lead directly into the clone wars, end of the Republic (whatever the Republic actually is) and the Jedi. It takes 10 years of set up and events off-screen that set up all of that. It's as much a philosophical thesis as Batman v. Superman is. Ideas are hinted at but never explored. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

12 hours ago, bored said:

Whereas you don't need TPM as Maul is barely (if ever) mentioned again, Qui-Gon is only alluded to in the latter two, and even then Yoda was originally written as Obi-Wan's only master anyway, and Anakin (and even Obi-Wan to a certain extent) is a completely different person by the second movie so his introduction was worthless. All it showed that sets up the second film is Anakin's connection with his mother which isn't even that convincing in my eyes anyway in TPM. Plus everyone's kind of introduced in the second film anyway. 

 

Correct. The prequel trilogy is often given as the most planned of the trilogies, but your critique exposes the flaw in that outlook: in some (not all) ways it is, in fact, the most episodic. Another aspect is that the three films look almost nothing alike: Episode I having been shot on 35mm anamorphic, Episode II on 960p anamorphic, and Episode III on 1080p spherical. Baffling.

 

Add to that dropped plot threads like Boba (in any other trilogy, you'd surely have an older Boba in Episode III, something Lucas pondered), the whole Sifo-Dyas mystery, and the rather housewife-y role that Padme is reduced to in Episode III. Its also clear that rather than have a clear hamartia for Anakin's fall in mind since Episode I, Lucas had multiple possible avenues open and didn't decide on one until he was editing Episode III, although he gets away with that much better.

[Schilkeman 964]

4 hours ago, bored said:

It's called the Republic but it seems to function more like the UN

You've never watched C-Span? That's not a dig on the movie, but talking about stuff and doing little is pretty much how these things work.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

something about taxation that is never specified

They want to tax trade routes. That's in the crawl.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

I don't know what threat the Trade Federation pose

They're blockading the planet Naboo. That's in the crawl.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

see or hear of them doing anything truly horrific

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

Yes they unlawfully invade

Seems pretty bad to me. If Amazon invaded my country, I think it would go poorly...wait.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

We don't even know what the Sith are besides an assumption that they're the Jedi but bad!

They're working with the Trade Federation, an organization of sail boat captains who are invading and subjugating an entire planet for money. It's safe to assume they're the bad guys, but sure, we aren't given all the details.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

whatever the Republic actually is

Again, I don't know what's hard to grasp. They have a Chancellor, and senators who represent people debating things. That's a capital R Republic, however

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

It doesn't lead directly into the clone wars, end of the Republic

It does show that the Republic is deeply corrupt. Said sail boat captains have their own representatives in the senate, have paid off many senators, and have effectively neutered the Chancellor's power so they can do whatever they want. This level of corruption, shown clearly throughout the film, leads directly to the Separatist movement, and the Clone Wars, a war orchestrated by Palpatine, which leads to the fall of the Republic and the extermination of the Jedi. The Phantom Menace is the start of the series. They even have numbers for easy consumption.

 

4 hours ago, bored said:

It's too smart for you. You just want action. You hate exposition.

I didn't say that. I did argue against this statement

 

14 hours ago, bored said:

All it showed that sets up the second film is Anakin's connection with his mother which isn't even that convincing in my eyes anyway in TPM

which makes even less sense now that I look at it again. What is not "convincing" about their connection?

 

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Its also clear that rather than have a clear hamartia for Anakin's fall in mind since Episode I, Lucas had multiple possible avenues open and didn't decide on one until he was editing Episode III, although he gets away with that much better.

I think what we got is what Lucas wanted. The bet he was hedging was the meta narrative that people might not buy that Anakin "did it for love." That he wasn't betrayed, or driven through deceit or violence to the dark side. I think he chose wisely in the end. The choice had to be Anakin's.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

(in any other trilogy, you'd surely have an older Boba in Episode III, something Lucas pondered

To be fair, he does show up in three "later" movies.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

the whole Sifo-Dyas mystery

I think the only legitimately unanswered question in the films, though it does get resolved in TCW, but one that isn't all that important in the end, I think.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

I think what we got is what Lucas wanted. The bet he was hedging was the meta narrative that people might not buy that Anakin "did it for love." That he wasn't betrayed, or driven through deceit or violence to the dark side. I think he chose wisely in the end. The choice had to be Anakin's.

 

My understanding is Lucas considered all sorts of motivations all throughout: early drafts of Episode I seem to set-up a romantice triangle with Obi Wan, which would no doubt drive Anakin to jealousy and treachery, an idea hinted to in Episode III ("Obi wan was here? What did he want?") but mercifully kept at bay. There's the Dark Side as an external force compelling the individual like a drug, an obsession with artificially preserving life ("I will even learn to stop people from dying"), thirst for power, possessivenss over Padme and so on.

 

Lucas was still experimenting with a great many of those as far as some of the very last pickups of Episode III, but I do agree he gets away with it because the kind of clutter of the different motivations is very psychology compelling (even though I still think the actual turn is still that bit too abrupt). I actually think that, of what we are presented with in Episode III, by far the most compelling motivation for Anakin is not the "official" reason of safeguarding Padme but rather the very credible fatherly relationship he develops with Palpatine, a notion that was particularly late in coming to Lucas but which works very well.

[Schilkeman 964]

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

an obsession with artificially preserving life ("I will even learn to stop people from dying"), thirst for power, possessivenss over Padme and so on.

These are all the same thing...

 

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

but rather the very credible fatherly relationship he develops with Palpatine,

Used in Palpatine's favor by this. It all ties together. Having it just be Palpatine poisoning his mind, so to speak, would be the same as "he made me do it," which would be significantly less compelling. The jealousy thing would have sucked, but sometimes you shoot stuff just in case.

[bored 309]

7 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I didn't say that. I did argue against this statement

 

 

13 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

but sure, cut it, whatever. It's got Jar Jar. It sucks. Who's got time for exposition? I'm on that grind. /s

 

You argued that I believed that. But besides that, my problems still remain. Yes, I literally know why things are happening, but again, there's no real depth, discussion, and further reasoning for it. Yes, trade routes are taxed, but why is that enough for them to invade Naboo in particular? It's not the Republic capital, so why not do this on Coruscant? Is Naboo rich in resources? Idk, but I guess the weird laser/plasma room in the Maul fight is supposed to imply this. If it is rich in resources, why is the blockade a problem? Most of the actual political intrigue is sidelined because Lucas seems to want to have it both ways.

 

Is the Republic corrupt? We're told that but never really shown it. Chancellor Volorum seemed fairly reasonable, merely wanting to assess the threat before acting on it. If anything Amidala was the unreasonable and corrupt one, bidding for removal immediately in favor of her senator rather than bring the Jedi in as witnesses (who the Chancellor sent btw), allow the committee to see what was happening, show the recordings from her ship of her advisor begging for her to bow down to the Federation, or argue her point better. All we ever get of the Republic's supposed corruption is someone will argue for an extreme move (Amidala in TPM and Jar Jar in AOTC), and everyone agrees with it besides the separatists who are also never specified for their reasons for leaving. No real discussion is ever really had on what is really going on. 

 

In terms of the Trade Federation, yes, invading a planet is not good, but that is not enough of a credible threat for the audience to care, because for all we know, they're holding the planet but doing nothing bad to the people, considering the message begging for Amidala to come back was implied to be set up by the Trade Federation, we don't even know if her people are being subjugated or tortured or killed. In contrast, the threat for every other Star Wars film, even the sequels, is very clear. This subjectively prevents many audiences from being engaged or caring because they don't know what they're supposed to be afraid of. Add to that the unclear reasons as to why they'd go as far to blockade and invade a planet over taxes, and you get a very muddled threat overall.

 

7 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

What is not "convincing" about their connection?

 

On a subjective level, the acting doesn't help, because Shmi seems bored, and obviously many child actors are fairly poor, unless you're an incredibly talented director which even Lucas himself has admitted to not being. Even the writing feels fairly generic, almost like a Disney original movie rather than a supposed space opera. It's all very surface level, like much of TPM. 

 

The Sith have the same problem. Yes, they're working with the invaders, but what are they? I know what they are because of The Old Republic games, but that's my problem. The movie gives nothing besides they're evil Jedi. Are they all ex-Jedi? Does the dark side automatically make them evil? Do they have their own philosophy? What do they want revenge for? These are not nitpicks, these are the main villains' main motivations. We need to know these things. Again, there's implications that the dark side automatically causes evil and the name itself is obvious, but if the prequels are supposed to be building on Star Wars, you would think this issue would be far more explored. 

 

6 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

The jealousy thing would have sucked, but sometimes you shoot stuff just in case.

 

That's the problem, it's still in the movie. "You're with him! You brought him here to kill me!" It's just that now all of the setup for that is gone, so now it comes out of nowhere besides "Obi-Wan's been here hasn't he?" That's my entire issue with Anakin's fall. All of the setup of Palpatine, Anakin's motivation to preserve Padme, and his want of power goes out the window in favor of "Dark side makes you insane and evil because Yoda said it forever dominates your destiny." It's so simplistic.

 

That's what bothers me about the prequels overall. Lucas said that the Clone Wars were barely a part of Anakin's fall. That's so much less interesting to me. The terrifying part of the Vader reveal is that this man who we were told was a good friend, was turned into this machine like monster, and as far as we knew at the time, was warped by war, being slowly chipped away at who he was until he became more machine than man, twisted and evil. Maybe he initially drew on the dark side to win the war, and it corrupted his mind over time, or he needed the dark side to survive his injuries of war, or even both. That's what would have really made Anakin a sympathetic and depth-filled character in my eyes. 

[Schilkeman 964]

19 minutes ago, bored said:

Is the Republic corrupt? We're told that but never really shown it. Chancellor Volorum seemed fairly reasonable, merely wanting to assess the threat before acting on it. If anything Amidala was the unreasonable and corrupt one, bidding for removal immediately in favor of her senator rather than bring the Jedi in as witnesses (who the Chancellor sent btw), allow the committee to see what was happening, show the recordings from her ship of her advisor begging for her to bow down to the Federation, or argue her point better. All we ever get of the Republic's supposed corruption is someone will argue for an extreme move (Amidala in TPM and Jar Jar in AOTC), and everyone agrees with it besides the separatists who are also never specified for their reasons for leaving. No real discussion is ever really had on what is really going on. 

I feel like I live in Bizarro world sometimes. 

[bored 309]

Me too.

[Faleel 5,356]

3 hours ago, bored said:

 

In terms of the Trade Federation, yes, invading a planet is not good, but that is not enough of a credible threat for the audience to care, because for all we know, they're holding the planet but doing nothing bad to the people, considering the message begging for Amidala to come back was implied to be set up by the Trade Federation, we don't even know if her people are being subjugated or tortured or killed.

They were sent to camps.

[bored 309]

Yeah, I guess I do remember that mentioned in one line of dialogue. Would've been nice if they'd shown the camps and how horrible they were. 

[Schilkeman 964]

8 hours ago, bored said:

Yeah, I guess I do remember that mentioned in one line of dialogue. Would've been nice if they'd shown the camps and how horrible they were. 

Showing the suffering of the people on Naboo was not the narrative goal of having the trade Federation invade the planet. It's the same reason we don't see anyone die on Alderaan. It's meant to show the state of a galaxy that would allow something like this to happen. A corporation invading a planet is bad (don't know why I have to keep saying this), but it's the ineffectiveness of the Senate to be able to do anything about it that is the real problem. I don't know how anyone can watch this movie and not come away with impression of a deeply corrupt government. We must be watching different movies, or have very different definitions of corruption.

 

Palpatine uses all of this to his advantage. He's orchestrated the invasion of Naboo to get sympathy in the Senate, because, while they can't do much about the Federation, they can kick Valorum out, and he can become Chancellor. It's a straight line from a corporation has a seat in a representational government to corporation invades a planet to new government is formed to fix the problems of the old one to civil war to Empire. If you're going to go past the OT at all, TPM is essential. Machete order is ridiculous for cutting it.

 

15 hours ago, bored said:

You're with him!

"Him" being a Jedi, the people I've convinced myself are trying to take over, not "him," who you're secretly in love with behind my back.

 

15 hours ago, bored said:

The movie gives nothing besides they're evil Jedi.

They are "trained in the Jedi arts." The movie never calls them Jedi, ex or otherwise.

 

15 hours ago, bored said:

Does the dark side automatically make them evil? Do they have their own philosophy?

"Fear is a path to the dark side." I think it's safe to assume that they use fear, and anger, and hate as the driving factors of their force usage. What is their motivation? What's the Empire's motivation? Power. The decisions we make on how to use what power we have is a theme throughout all the films.

 

15 hours ago, bored said:

What do they want revenge for?

"The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."

 

While I think TPM answers a lot more of the questions you have than you seem to be remembering, or are able to put together for yourself, I also think it's unfair to task that one film with answering every niggling detail we might have. It's doubly unfair to compare a two hour movie to a forty hour video game. Not all the answers are going to fit in one film. That's why he made three of them. But I still think it gives us plenty to build on, and solid foundation for the next films. I've watched these in order with people who've never seen them. They had no difficulty in parsing what was going on. TPM does a fine job as Episode one.

[artguy360 1,843]

You all are putting more thought into TPM than George Lucas did when he wrote the script.

[Schilkeman 964]

I had a response, but I stopped caring half way through.

 

Just like George.

 

Bazinga 

[Chen G. 3,949]

7 hours ago, bored said:

Would've been nice if they'd shown the camps and how horrible they were. 

 

I keep on going back-and-forth on that kind of stuff, both with regards to the occupation the Naboo are experiencing and the film's rather picture-postcard view of slavery. On the one hand, its cloying.

 

On the other hand, it is a film for younger audiences, which is both in-line with the rest of the series (with the slight exception of Revenge of the Sith) AND really works for the film as "Episode One" (and would have worked better still were it a prelude), so that audiences can "grow up" with the films, at least in theory.

[bored 309]

Yes, if you assume simple answers then yes, the film "works". But it makes the film as a whole feel shallow and lazy if it doesn't explain hardly anything that's going on. Yes, you can assume everything I pointed out, but you can do that for something like the Transformers films. Sure we never learn Megatron's backstory and motivations besides a basic "I want power", but you can assume with a few slight context clues here and there. Doesn't make him a well written villain. 

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

On the other hand, it is a film for younger audiences, which is both in-line with the rest of the series (with the slight exception of Revenge of the Sith) AND really works for the film as "Episode One" (and would have worked better still were it a prelude), so that audiences can "grow up" with the films, at least in theory.

 

This comes back to my main issue with the prequels. They want to have their cake and eat it too. I'm not saying something like the camps should have been Auschwitz-like, but showing them as prisons to demonstrate Naboo's subjugation would have added tangible stakes, and the fact that the prequels are both goofy, childlike, family fun, while also supposed to be a more complex, semi-political Star Trek like film doesn't work. The force is both magic that you can make up whatever you want about, and a definite, measurable, sci-fi concept. Those are contradictory. As far as I know, Gandalf's magic is not also a complex physics system.

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 hours ago, bored said:

This comes back to my main issue with the prequels. They want to have their cake and eat it too. I'm not saying something like the camps should have been Auschwitz-like, but showing them as prisons to demonstrate Naboo's subjugation would have added tangible stakes, and the fact that the prequels are both goofy, childlike, family fun, while also supposed to be a more complex, semi-political Star Trek like film doesn't work.

 

This problem is hardly unique to the prequel trilogy, having also plagued Return of the Jedi a great deal: the cutting from the gloomy Emperor scenes to the Ewok crap could not be more peculiar if Marquand, Lucas and Kasdan tried. The lesson here is NOT that Return of the Jedi is somekind of prelude to the prequel trilogy but just that, as I always say, it doesn't do to lump these films together in trilogies: its best to look at them as individual entries, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

I'd definitely agree there is a neither-fish-nor-fowl quality to Episode One, tonally-speaking. Its weird to see a film whose overall style is that of a children's film, but which ends with the death of the protagonist. I don't think Episode two has that in quite the same way: that movie is just goofy from start to finish, even if not entirely by design. Episode III has some of this inconsistency, too, but definitely lands harder on the more gloomy side of things.

 

Interesting you associate this more Machiavelian turn in the prequels with Star Trek. I tend to think it more in terms of Dune and, to a large extent, Lucas trying to one-up Coppola and his Godfather films: the structure of the prequel trilogy is suspiciously similar to the "prequel" parts of The Godfather: Part II, and all the Machiavelian atmosphere is very much in Coppola's wheelhouse.

[Schilkeman 964]

There are many "hard" magic systems in fantasy literature, and I think George did a pretty good job of not playing Calvinball with force powers. However, Midi-chlorians are not the Force, just a way of detecting potential force sensitivity. It's biology more than physics, and since "life creates" the force, and midi-chlorians are "microscopic lifeforms," they really don't go against anything from the later/earlier films.

 

On another point, the juxtaposition of serious and absurd is one of the things I love about Star Wars. It's also why I love Mahler, Star Trek, and the books of Herman Melville. "I was glad to have met you, Anakin." "I was glad to meet you, too." Jar Jar falls into some robots. It's good stuff.