Rey Skywalker Star Wars movie (Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy directing, Stephen Knight writing)

[Edmilson 7,473]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

If we cut through the vitriol and noise and take the time to listen to the fans, they're mostly saying that Rey, for example, is a poorly developed character with no real arc or "Hero's Journey", and that in their view, male characters were disrespected to make her look good and put her front and centre. And this is coming from female fans as well.

 

The stoic, strong female character that aims to show that women can do it as well as—if not better than—the men, is simply not that interesting, and it's a tired trope at this point. And again, there are female fans that share in this viewpoint.

 

These, I think, are legitimate complaints which Disney/Lucasfilm should listen to instead of taking a standoffish stance...especially when they're voiced by a considerable part of their audience.

 

But then you have all-but-confirmed Disney shills attempting to smear the fan base in hit piece articles or YouTube videos by calling them "misogynists" for disliking Rey or other female characters. And, well, it's become the usual shouting match online of "I'm right and you're wrong."

 

You said it better than I ever could.

 

To say that all fans who don't care about Rey and don't care about Disney Star Wars are "sexist misogynist dinosaurs" (to quote GoldenEye) is simply plain wrong. 

 

Most of them are normal people who love a franchise but don't like to see it becoming victim to poor storytelling and, especially, the destruction and demoralization of their favorite characters. 

 

I really don't understand this tendency of making male heroes to look like imbeciles, jerks and assholes while the female heroes are the pinnacle of human perfection, without a single flaw on their bodies. Why humiliate one gender only to (try to) make the other one feel better about themselves? Why continue to bet on confrontation, throwing fire in the culture wars and angering people whose only crime was to like older movies?

 

Disney doesn't seem to care about hurting their own movies if that what it takes to "promote social change" (that won't happen because of Star Wars, I'm sure about that).

 

Just look at their other franchise: Marvel. The female Avengers assembling during the Endgame final battle makes no logical sense. Why only the female heroes helped Captain Marvel's charge against Thanos' army? Is it because literally all of the male heroes are busy with other stuff and not paying attention to the thing (the Infinity Gauntlet) the two armies were actually fighting for? Every single person (Earthling or otherwise) with a penis couldn't help their team, then led by Captain Marvel, to make for a final push towards victory? What is the logic behind that?

 

Answer: none. It doesn't make sense within what was established for that movie, but Disney and the filmmakers and producers don't care. They want to be praised on social media and by media outlets by promoting female empowerment. They want to see their fans spreading gifs of that scene on Twitter with hashtags like #FightLikeaGirl or something. They want that dopamine rush, that pleasant feeling on their bodies. Even if it hurts the most important scene and makes it worse that it otherwise would've been of their biggest movie ever.

 

Just for the record: the "female heroes doing badass stuff while a battle rages on" was done much better on Infinity War. Or Return of the King, for that matter. Everyone, men and women, cheered when Éowyn destroyed the Witch King.

 

But no one cares about that. In the age of social media (one of the worst inventions, if not the very worst, in the history of mankind), no one wants to debate, to reach a common sense. Everyone just wants to insulte their adversaries with gifs, memes, videos, etc. Everyone just wants to look awesome on the internet and receive that sweet feeling of seeing their posts "destroying the haters" and "cancelling" people who they happen to disagree with receiving likes. There's a slang in Brazil for that: lacrar.

 

Both sides have valid points (that the other doesn't want to hear at any costs), and both sides have despicable people on a shouting match all over the internet that is dragging people's lives, careers and health through the mud.

 

And that goes not only for Star Wars. Or Marvel. Or pop culture in general. It's also true for politics, sports, children education, every single aspect of human life. And it's not getting better, on the contrary: every year the hatred gets worse.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

19 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I really don't understand this tendency of making male heroes to look like imbeciles, jerks and assholes while the female heroes are the pinnacle of human perfection

Yeah, both males and females can happily coexist in a movie, with all of their strengths and flaws, and one doesn't have to be diminished to raise the other.

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Just look at their other franchise: Marvel. The female Avengers assembling during the Endgame final battle makes no logical sense. Why only the female heroes helped Captain Marvel's charge against Thanos' army? Is it because literally all of the male heroes are busy with other stuff and not paying attention to the thing (the Infinity Gauntlet) the two armies were actually fighting for? Every single person (Earthling or otherwise) with a penis couldn't help their team, then led by Captain Marvel, to make for a final push towards victory? What is the logic behind that?

 

 

I have to say, all these comparisons to Marvel as a kind of more favourable example, are kind of panging at me. Yes, Star Wars is very uneven, unbalanced and, especially under Disney, suffers the most terrible inflation of content.

 

But - a few flourishes from Rian Johnson notwithstanding - at least Star Wars is always earnest. Its not very serious a lot of the time, but at least its played straight, which is more than could be said for the Cutesie Kiddie Crap^TM known as Marvel... Those movies have all the intensity of watching Teletubbies on the big-screen.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Yeah Star Wars is played somewhat more straight, but TLJ and TROS aren’t that much more serious or “intense” than what Marvel is putting out. As far as I’m concerned, they’re cut from the same cloth and share all of the same weaknesses.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Look, I hate, loath, despise The Rise of Skywalker. Its a comic-book movie in the worst possible sense without being based on a comic-book.

 

But it has A LOT less of the kind of winking-and-nodding to the camera that Marvel movies practically live on. I'm developing a topical allergy to that kind of cinema.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

That’s fair, but talk about your small mercies.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

40 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

But - a few flourishes from Rian Johnson notwithstanding - at least Star Wars is always earnest. Its not very serious a lot of the time, but at least its played straight, which is more than could be said for the Cutesie Kiddie Crap^TM known as Marvel... Those movies have all the intensity of watching Teletubbies on the big-screen.

 

You know we agree in wanting more earnestness in movies. But in this case, it's not about earnestness vs. irony, or playing it "straight" vs. tongue in cheek. Both approaches have their place. It's about, whichever way you play it, how well you do it.  However you personally feel about MCU humour, there's no question Marvel plays irony much better than Star Wars is playing earnestness, and as a result the irony's been (mostly) more entertaining to more people, and certainly more successful. Or, at least it was. The MCU humour is obviously wearing thin.

 

But I'm only willing to give Star Wars so much credit for trying to be earnest until they start doing it better.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 minute ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

It's about, whichever way you play it, how well you do it.

 

Sure, but its also a matter of taste. I've developed an extreme distaste for this kind of filmmaking, and honestly can't wait for it to go the way of the dodo.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Sure, but its also a matter of taste. I've developed an extreme distaste for this kind of filmmaking, and honestly can't wait for it to go the way of the dodo.

 

I agree with you. I'm just not willing to cut Star Wars any slack simply because they're being earnest, because they're not doing it well.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

I mentioned YouTubers who I think are reasonable and don't get carried away by emotions, and this guy is one of them. He gives his thoughts here on how the hiring of Obaid-Chinoy could be seen as a questionable move in view of how things stand now in 'Star Wars' and the fandom.

 

 

[Edmilson 7,473]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I have to say, all these comparisons to Marvel as a kind of more favourable example, are kind of panging at me. Yes, Star Wars is very uneven, unbalanced and, especially under Disney, suffers the most terrible inflation of content.

 

But - a few flourishes from Rian Johnson notwithstanding - at least Star Wars is always earnest. Its not very serious a lot of the time, but at least its played straight, which is more than could be said for the Cutesie Kiddie Crap^TM known as Marvel... Those movies have all the intensity of watching Teletubbies on the big-screen.

That wasn't my point at all. It's not a Marvel vs Star Wars debate. Please read my comment again (and start to finish).

 

My point was: two big brands owned by Disney are having female characters propelled up by their filmmakers and producers, no matter if that demoralizes male and/or classic characters and even if that hurts the movie, like it did with Endgame (a movie I otherwise like better than most SW stuff).

 

It doesn't matter that it is the MCU, it could've been literally any other franchise if they were owned by Disney*. It could've been Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Jurassic Park, Jaws, Power Rangers, Godzilla, Dragonball Z, DC Comics, Asterix & Obelix. It happens to be Marvel because Disney bought them in 2009 and since the mid-2010s used it in the culture wars that plague the internet.

 

Your tirade against the MCU, while not completely without merit (believe me, I agree with some of your points, but not to the point of completely hating superheroes, something I liked more and for longer than Star Wars) was entirely unnecessary. Though I guess it was irresistible given your hatred and contempt for the genre.

 

*Disney may be considered the biggest "culprit" and the arch-nemesis of American conservatives, but they're not the only ones. From what I've been reading, every entertainment company in the USA and Europe have invested in culture wars and confrontations with the fans, some to even bigger degrees than Disney.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

From what I've been reading, every entertainment company in the USA and Europe have invested in culture wars

They're not seeing a great return on that investment...and the last time I checked, companies are in the business of making money, not losing it.

 

The needle should start moving back towards the centre when the investors become fed up. But Disney has deep pockets, so I expect them to continue in their folly for longer than other companies.

 

The comic book industry, after years of saying things were just fine, is starting to acknowledge the fallout. Let's hope sheer preservation instinct will be enough for some of these companies to change their approach.
 

[JTN 2,045]

9 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Yeah, both males and females can happily coexist in a movie, with all of their strengths and flaws, and one doesn't have to be diminished to raise the other.

It’s a trend that big companies use to get more viewership. They’re failing miserably and soon they will drop it and things will go back to normal where you don’t have to deconstruct and humiliate male heroes in order to depict female heroes. Wokeness is a failed experiment that corporations have already realized but don’t know how to stop. Losing tons of money will make them stop eventually. The sooner the better for everyone.

[Schilkeman 964]

Rey: Exists

Fans: "This is at the expense of all the male characters I love. Now I don't hate all women, just the ones I have to see. I'm sick of Disney's woke agenda."  

 

Look, I think Rey is a poorly written character, but I think all the characters in the ST are poorly written. This is not a male vs female character thing. This is a hire people who know how to write thing. 

15 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Kathy Kennedy planning the next Lucasfilm projects 

 

And we wonder why there aren't more women on the forum. 

[JTN 2,045]

Yeah sure, that is the reason. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Just like evil misogynistic men are the reason why there aren’t more women EVERYWHERE doing everything what men do, better than them. Riiiight. 

How long before all men AND women will have enough of this piss poor excuse and a free pass for mediocrity? 
 

NO ONE cares if you’re a woman or a man or a bicycle. All people care about is can you tell a f…g great Star Wars story without pushing modern day politics and forced agendas and quotas. 
If a monkey directed a great SW film, people wouldn’t care. All they want is to see relatable strong male AND female characters, not Mary-Sues or Gary-Stus and stories that a 5-year-old would be ashamed of.

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

7 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Your tirade against the MCU, while not completely without merit (believe me, I agree with some of your points, but not to the point of completely hating superheroes, something I liked more and for longer than Star Wars) was entirely unnecessary. Though I guess it was irresistible given your hatred and contempt for the genre.

 

Ironically, I think Star Wars is now the third big comic-book superhero franchise. Not because its literally based on a comic-book (although many of Star Wars' antecedents - John Carter and Lensmen, most notable - are very comic-book like, and certainly their heroes are kind of proto-superheroes) but because with all those spinoffs its gradually turning more quixotic and picaresque...like a comic book. And certainly the Jedi had been superheroes since 1999, if not since 1983.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

Rey: a Mary Sue

Fans: "This is at the expense of all the male characters I love."

The spin on what fans say: "Now I don't hate all women, just the ones I have to see."

[JTN 2,045]

1977.

 

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

18 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Yeah, both males and females can happily coexist in a movie, with all of their strengths and flaws, and one doesn't have to be diminished to raise the other

When exactly has that happened in Star Wars (in the way you're refering to)? I'm trying to remember a moment so out of left field to be out of character...

 

5 hours ago, JTW said:

1977.

 

Wouldn't that be regarded as a woman being better than the men? What exactly is the difference between this and what is being done now?

[JTN 2,045]

6 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

What exactly is the difference between this and what is being done now?

Nothing, except that Princess Leia is a much better executed character, and she’s not a Mary-Sue, she needs a man’s love and needs her friends’ help to defeat her enemies. 
And she was a strong female character back in 1977 without the producers having to yell to the world that she is a s•t•r•o•n•g female character. 
 

6 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

When exactly has that happened in Star Wars (in the way you're refering to)?

Basically in the entire Original Trilogy. 

[Edmilson 7,473]

7 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

And we wonder why there aren't more women on the forum. 

This is a quote from Panderverse, a South Park episode that satirizes two modern plagues: culture wars and AI. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't quoted much here.

 

7 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Rey: Exists

Fans: "This is at the expense of all the male characters I love. Now I don't hate all women, just the ones I have to see. I'm sick of Disney's woke agenda."  

 

Look, I think Rey is a poorly written character, but I think all the characters in the ST are poorly written. This is not a male vs female character thing. This is a hire people who know how to write thing. 

Mad Max: Fury Road has Max's name on the title but it is really Furiosa's movie. And everyone across the board, left and right, really loved that movie. Because it's a great movie and Furiosa is a great character that we can root for. 

 

That's not the case with Disney's movies.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

59 minutes ago, JTW said:

Nothing, except that Princess Leia is a much better executed character, and she’s not a Mary-Sue, she needs a man’s love and needs her friends’ help to defeat her enemies. 
And she was a strong female character back in 1977 without the producers having to yell to the world that she is a s•t•r•o•n•g female character. 

Besides that last part, that isn't exclusive to Lucasfilm/Star Wars, I don't really see in the sequel trilogy an opposite of what you describe, neither in every show on Disney+. I know Rey is called a Mary-Sue, but I don't see anyone else being called one, since we are talking about Star Wars as is, and not exclusively on the sequel trilogy.

 

59 minutes ago, JTW said:

Basically in the entire Original Trilogy. 

I should have highlighted or picked a different comment from page 6, but that question was refering to "have to be diminished to raise the other".

The only character I could see other thinking that is Finn... that wasn't diminished to raise anyone... he was just diminished (even in TFA with the janitor joke)

[HunterTech 994]

Well, I always occasionally hear about Fury Road naysayers who hate it for that exact reason, but they're so small that I wonder if they're even worth mentioning in the equation.

 

Disney really loves wanting to pull shortcuts in order to get praised for being socially conscious, never bothering to consider what the hell one does to actually do that. It's a consistent failing of their remakes, since there's stuff thrown in that's supposed to placate audiences, yet because they refuse to budge from the template of the original story (or in other cases, like Mulan, really spit in the face of them), they do absolutely nothing with it. The ideas are easy to hate if the stories have no place for them.

 

The only reason I might seem particularly defensive is because this often feels like legitimately the only example people past a certain age have of a big company trying to inject their properties with sociopolitical ideas, which I find incredibly unfair. I know full well that there is a place for them that can feel natural, as I've seen media elsewhere that have proven resonant to the audiences that Disney desperately try to court. I absolutely reject the premise that this is a fatal failing of these projects in particular because there are too many other moving, more prevalent parts for that to be true.

[Schilkeman 964]

59 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

This is a quote from Panderverse, a South Park episode that satirizes two modern plagues: culture wars and AI. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't quoted much here.

i know where it comes from. I just outgrew South Park 15 years ago, and I think the world did, too.

 

59 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Mad Max: Fury Road has Max's name on the title but it is really Furiosa's movie. And everyone across the board, left and right, really loved that movie. Because it's a great movie and Furiosa is a great character that we can root for. 

 

That's not the case with Disney's movies.

I don't see that this contradicts anything I said. Rey is poorly written, but there is an undercurrent to the arguments being made that she can't be well written, because having female leads in Star Wars "at the expense of the male characters*" is detrimental to the property. *(Whatever the fuck that means. I don't think I've ever heard Rain Johnson say he made Luke a sad, tired old man to make Rey look cool)

 

7 hours ago, JTW said:

Just like evil misogynistic men are the reason why there aren’t more women EVERYWHERE doing everything what men do, better than them.

When you're right and you don't even know it. 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Alien and Terminator had strong female characters, I thought.

CutThroat Island even flipped the gender dynamics all the way, even if it unfortunately wasn't well received.

And I'm watching Stargate SG-1 again lately, where I'd say the relation between the male and female protagonists is perfectly okay.

They even toned it down from the very first episode, where they originally really pointed it out.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

I don't get that Mary Sue complaint. In the 80s nobody complained about those Chuck Norris / Jean-Claude van Damme / Schwarzenegger / Sly super macho (I can do anything) characters. Heroes have been such stereotyped in movies for decades. Ok. These were not really good movies. And you might expect more from a franchise like Star Wars. But this is not a women issue. This is just a ambitionless character writing thing. 

 

Apart from that, I found Rey charming. And she was almost the best thing about the sequel trilogy.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

2 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Apart from that, I found Rey charming. And she was almost the best thing about the sequel trilogy.

I like Rey fine enough.

The background novels even explain some things on why she's so good at things at the start.

In a novel written even before TFA was released.

So it's not like it's retconning anything.

 

Shame she was turned into a Palps though.

I tend to just ignore TRoS in my opinions.

That one is...

NOT good!

[GerateWohl 4,373]

The Rise of Skywalker might be the worst blockbuster movie ever made. At least it is the worst, that I have ever seen. And I have watched a lot. I have hardly any words for that pile of shit of a story and movie.

[Edmilson 7,473]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

I just outgrew South Park 15 years ago

That doesn't make what the episode said any less true 

 

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

I don't see that this contradicts anything I said. Rey is poorly written, but there is an undercurrent to the arguments being made that she can't be well written, because having female leads in Star Wars "at the expense of the male characters*" is detrimental to the property.

From what I read on the internet (and, again, this is just anecdotal, not a study with academic rigor), even some people who hated the sequels are still able to point out that they liked and enjoyed Rogue One more than any other Disney Star Wars. These people chose Rogue One, a movie with probably an even more diverse cast than the sequels, as their favorite, and not Solo (a movie starring a white dude) for example.

 

As I said before, it's hard to find people who dislike Fury Road, and even harder those who hated just because of Furiosa. Wonder Woman received more love from fans than any movie starring Batman and Superman since 2013.

 

And that's just about movies that came out after the culture war began.

 

My point is: people don't like poorly told stories where, in order to fight a complex societal problem (something that, IMHO, will NEVER be achieved with Hollywood movies, no matter how much the industry likes to think they're changing the world, they're as delusional as M. Night Shyamalan when he did Lady in the Water, where he placed himself as a writer who was destined to save the world or whatever), poor quality characters from minorities are represented as flawless perfect human beings able to do just about anything while other characters from backgrounds that are considered "the enemy" (white males) are portrayed as idiots, morons, incompetents, etc. Especially if those characters are beloved figures from the past.

 

Top Gun: Maverick wouldn't have done half of its box office if Cruise's character was a bitter, miserable old man who is saved time and time again by his diverse apprentices or whatever.

 

The fans who are called by rich Hollywood artists sexist, misogynist, racist, worst than Hitler, etc., would have no problem seeing a good female character that is badass but also fights alongside males. Sure, there's a few actual crazy nazi creeps out there, but not to the degree that the media thinks. Remember when everyone in Hollywood was terrified of shootings in theaters when Joker came out? The incel menace or whatever is as insignificant as the plot of Planet of the Apes actually coming to pass.

 

Repeating what I said yesterday: both sides have good points, but no one wants to hear their enemy. It's a war, after all, a ridiculous one, but still.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

I quite like Rey, especially in TFA (Ridley's portrayal a big reason), and IMO they don't make her "strong" at the expense of the male characters. Poe and Finn are mostly brave, competent heroes. The only time I really saw this in the ST was when Rian Johnson dabbled with the "strong smart woman™ makes man look weak and stupid" bit in TLJ, with Holdo making Poe come across as an impulsive idiot. I do think Rey is poorly conceived, poorly developed and poorly written, but I don't think she's really a Mary Sue. A Chosen One? Sure. But that's Star Wars.

 

That said, I agree with the general sentiment that it's getting to be an all too common trope in film and TV for lazy writers to make their female characters strong women™ by either making the surrounding men look weak and stupid, or by turning them into action-hero badasses. Both are incredibly insulting to both men and women. The latter in particular to women because it's just plain sexist on the part of screenwriters to suggest that for a woman to be strong she has to act like a man. And the irony is not just that most of these screenwriters probably regard themselves as progressive, but many are women themselves.

 

As others have said, I think Ripley and Sarah Conner were much better strong women™, and it wasn't at the expense of the men around them. And I actually think Arwen and Eowyn in Lord of the Rings are two of the best examples of different kinds of strong women™. 

 

 

 

 

[HunterTech 994]

I didn't know @Holko was in TLJ!

[Edmilson 7,473]

He even got his own theme!

14 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I like Rey fine, and IMO they don't make her "strong" at the expense of the male characters. Poe and Finn are mostly brave, competent heroes. The only time I really saw this in the ST was when Rian Johnson dabbled with the "strong smart woman™ makes man look weak and stupid" bit in TLJ, with Holdo making Poe come across as an impulsive idiot.  I do think Rey is poorly conceived, poorly developed and poorly written, but I don't think she's really a Mary Sue. A Chosen One? Sure. But that's Star Wars.

 

That said, I agree with the general sentiment that it's getting to be an all too common trope in film and TV for lazy writers to make their female characters strong women™ by either making the surrounding men look weak and stupid, or by turning them into action-hero badasses. Both are incredibly insulting to both men and women. The latter in particular to women because it's just plain sexist on the part of screenwriters (most of whom I'd guess regard themselves as progressive) to suggest that for a woman to be strong she has to act like a man.

 

As others have said, I think Ripley and Sarah Conner were much better strong women™, and it wasn't at the expense of the men around them. And I actually think Arwen and Eowyn in Lord of the Rings excellent examples of two different kinds of strong women™. 

 

 

 

 

Indeed. Even if we forgive Star Wars, there are plenty of worse examples out there of "male characters are weak and stupid, white male characters are weak, stupid and evil and all women are strong, powerful and have no flaws". And that isn't fixing sexism, is just adding fire to the culture war and making the internet even more insufferable.

 

Hollywood (and the West in general) used to be better at writing female action (Ripley, Sarah Connor, Charlie's Angels) or fantasy heroes (Arwen, Éowyn, Hermione, Princess Leia) that everyone could root for. Japan remains good at that even today - just look at magical girl animes. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

20 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Hollywood (and the West in general) used to be better at writing female action (Ripley, Sarah Connor, Charlie's Angels) or fantasy heroes (Arwen, Éowyn, Hermione, Princess Leia) that everyone could root for.

 

Hermoine is another really good example. Though Harry Potter fans will complain that some of Harry & especially Ron's most heroic bits in the books were given to Hermoine in the film. For example, in the Deathly Hallows book it's Harry who came up with the clever idea of flying away on the dragon to escape Gringot's. In the film, it's Hermoine (of course).

 

 

[Edmilson 7,473]

Book Hermione was better than the movie version (even though I like Emma Watson). 

 

But to be fair, there are a few characters who were much better in the movies than the books. Sirius is great in the movies, not so much in the books. Snape is just a prick in the books, Alan Rickman's version is much more complex and tragic.

 

I imagine JKR wished she had a timeturner to go back in time and write this scene on Prisoner of Azkaban after watching the movie adaptation 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

Okay, rather than vainly engage in an unending back and forth, I'll just admit that I'm sore at having seen Luke and Han portrayed in such a pitiful way and ending with a whimper after many years of looking forward to their return...

 

That I think is a big source of the criticism, which has been unfairly levelled at Rey because, "Chosen One" or not, she's just so dang great at everything, and our pride was hurt for Han when she schooled him on how to fix the Falcon. lol

[JTN 2,045]

3 hours ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

I know Rey is called a Mary-Sue, but I don't see anyone else being called one

Because no one else is a Mary-Sue in Star Wars. Princess Leia definitely isn't. She is a strong, independent, badass character who is also fragile, a real woman who falls for the scoundrel bad boy, asks for help the very first scene she appears in, and isn't the bestest ever at everything, and isn't better than the men surrounding her. She can be a woman, a lover, a friend, a leader, a soldier, kind, gentle, caring, strong, wise at the same time without being arrogant and flawless. It's because she wasn't created with a political movement in mind, but as a great relatable character every man, woman and children of all race can identify with.  

2 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

The background novels even explain some things on why she's so good at things at the start.

In a novel written even before TFA was released.

You shouldn't need background novels to understand rey's character. It's the sign of a sloppy screenplay that doesn't establish the character. You didn't have to read anything to understand the character of Leia, because who she was was perfectly depicted in the films. 

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

That said, I agree with the general sentiment that it's getting to be an all too common trope in film and TV for lazy writers to make their female characters strong women™ by either making the surrounding men look weak and stupid, or by turning them into action-hero badasses. Both are incredibly insulting to both men and women. The latter in particular to women because it's just plain sexist on the part of screenwriters to suggest that for a woman to be strong she has to act like a man. And the irony is not just that most of these screenwriters probably regard themselves as progressive, but many are women themselves.

 

Not to hijack the thread at all, but...cough... Nevermind, what I was getting at is...cough...cough...Morfydd Clark's Galadriel...cough...

[Pieter Boelen 740]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The only time I really saw this in the ST was when Rian Johnson dabbled with the "strong smart woman™ makes man look weak and stupid" bit in TLJ, with Holdo making Poe come across as an impulsive idiot.

Well, I'd say part of the point was that Holdo's leadership style also wasn't particularly fitting.

Both were at fault. Not just Poe.

 

But I do like the idea of Poe being a hothead pilot.

It kind-of comes with the territory.

And gives him something for character growth.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Okay, rather than vainly engage in an unending back and forth, I'll just admit that I'm sore at having seen Luke and Han portrayed in such a pitiful way and ending with a whimper after many years of looking forward to their return...

That indeed irks me more than anything.

(Other than Palps' return. But that one, I just pretend never happened.)

 

2 hours ago, JTW said:

You shouldn't need background novels to understand rey's character. It's the sign of a sloppy screenplay that doesn't establish the character. You didn't have to read anything to understand the character of Leia, because who she was was perfectly depicted in the films. 

All I'm saying is it WAS thought about in advance.

They might've done a poor job explaining it in the film.

Either due to bad writing, or simply because there's only so much you can fit into two hours.

But it's not something they just ignored on purpose.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

30 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

That indeed irks me more than anything.

(Other than Palps' return. But that one, I just pretend never happened.)

By the third movie, I was so jaded that I actually thought "Oh goody!" when Palpatine's return was announced. At least I would get to see Ian McDiarmid chew up some more scenery. And when his fleet of Star Destroyers rose from beneath the crust of Exagol, I was like, "Cool." Yeah, I checked out, and fun was had.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

5 hours ago, Edmilson said:

That doesn't make what the episode said any less true 

You can always count on South Park to call things out. And it wasn't one-sided, as they also called out the more fervent fans for being "lazy" in their complaining about "woke stuff".

 

5 hours ago, Edmilson said:

These people chose Rogue One, a movie with probably an even more diverse cast than the sequels, as their favorite, and not Solo (a movie starring a white dude) for example.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

3 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

By the third movie, I was so jaded that I actually thought "Oh goody!" when Palpatine's return was announced. At least I would get to see Ian McDiarmid chew up some more scenery. And when his fleet of Star Destroyers rose from beneath the crust of Exagol, I was like, "Cool." Yeah, I checked out, and fun was had.

I love me some classic ISDs!

But that just looked like someone had gone mental with the Copy-Paste buttons.

No interesting composition of strategy whatsoever.

[Pellaeon 593]

On 06/01/2024 at 11:10 AM, Chen G. said:

A-propos the Rey film, which is clearly Episode X in all but name....

 

It may well will be Episode X in name, too, if the studio is at all confident in it.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

The "Skywalker Saga" is supposed to be concluded (yeah, never mind that Rey took the Skywalker name). So if they want to continue numbering the episodes, they could reset to "I" since we're embarking on a new saga.

 

@Nick1Ø66, don't snicker, this movie is happening! lol

[mstrox 6,651]

Episode IXa

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

1 minute ago, mstrox said:

Episode IXa

Boy, if Williams scores it, he's gonna have a hard time remembering that one when introducing it at concerts!

[mrbellamy 6,291]

On 08/01/2024 at 11:27 AM, Nick1Ø66 said:

Hermoine is another really good example. Though Harry Potter fans will complain that some of Harry & especially Ron's most heroic bits in the books were given to Hermoine in the film. For example, in the Deathly Hallows book it's Harry who came up with the clever idea of flying away on the dragon to escape Gringot's. In the film, it's Hermoine (of course).

 

Hermione is also terrified of getting on the dragon in the book, which is another thing the movies never really captured and part of this struggle Hollywood has with giving strong girls or women vulnerabilities. She was more athletic in the movies but no less capable in the books. Even though she could be a bit of a wuss about the action, she got through it because the books often pointed out that bravery didn't mean being unafraid. 

 

Which isn't to say Rey shouldn't be a natural athlete, necessarily, and I do think people overexaggerate that Rey doesn't have any humanity. She's scared through a lot of Force Awakens, naive through much of Last Jedi, she can be impetuous in how she runs away from her problems in TFA and TROS or gets crazy ideas that backfire like saving Ren in TLJ. She won't accept emotional support from Finn when he's trying to be there in TROS. She's prone to crying way more than most action-adventure heroes, except maybe Samwise Gamgee lmao. There's a character in there but some of this ends up coming off contrived.

 

I also get the "she's good at everything" complaint but I guess I felt like it was established fine enough for me that she knew a lot about space junk. And I'd seen enough REALLY invincible action heroines that I was sort of grateful she had some visible struggle while fighting the bandits on Jakku, and had to try at least a couple times firing a blaster or doing the Force memory trick lol. I understand that the acrobatics of the Falcon Chase are equivalent to a teenager without a license competing in Fast and Furious, but it's executed with enough pizzazz for me not to care. I honestly just accepted these things as dumb typical adventure movie shortcuts and was kinda stunned by the outrage.

 

But I probably should have known a lot of people sincerely hold The Force as a special exception to other kinds of movie magic and dumb luck. Perhaps I do too, but in the opposite way where I'm even more inclined to forgive a lot of bullshit in Star Wars because of The Force.

 

On 08/01/2024 at 9:45 AM, GerateWohl said:

The Rise of Skywalker might be the worst blockbuster movie ever made. At least it is the worst, that I have ever seen. And I have watched a lot. I have hardly any words for that pile of shit of a story and movie.

 

Rise of Skywalker has to be seen to be believed, but it's still not really among the worst big budget genre movies I've seen, because it's at least watchable for the most part. I didn't find it thoroughly dull or charmless, just confounding. I wouldn't give it less than a 4/10, which was still far below my lowest hopes for Star Wars Episode IX. I thought it'd be a 6 at worst. 

 

(Personally I don't even think it's the worst Disney release of 2019. The Lion King takes the cake for me.)

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:18 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

As well as being a money-making enterprise (allegedly, if we judge by 2023), Disney's in the business of making statements...so I don't see them walking back this big announcement to the press of shattering a glass ceiling.

 

 

Well, I'm maybe changing my mind about this in light of speculation that this media blitz was initiated by Obaid-Chinoy herself, who allegedly hired a publicist.

 

The thinking was that this big, progressive announcement would make Disney think twice about canceling the project, because of a likely backlash and bad press from the progressives.

 

With the firestorm online surrounding the announcement and its tone from the disenchanted fan base, it appears Disney has attempted to quell the furor by now suddenly announcing a Mandalorian & Grogu movie helmed by Jon Favreau, and there's also talk about the Rey movie being pushed back.

 

I think we're seeing some game pieces move here... Kathleen Kennedy is on her way out the door, and Bob Iger's looking to a post-Kennedy world that may see Favreau replace her.

 

The sequel trilogy is Iger's baby as well as Kennedy's, but as the CEO of Disney beholden to the shareholders and investors—and an ostensibly competent businessman—I think he's ready to leave it behind and move in another direction.

 

Kennedy, on the other hand—with one foot out the door and nothing to lose—would prefer to further the adventures of Rey to ensure her legacy, and make it harder for Disney to somehow retcon her and the trilogy by perhaps relegating it to some alternate timeline.

 

So yeah, I'm beginning to agree that the Rey movie will never get made.

 

 

 

 

[Bespin 8,484]

I believe that Disney should learn to wait until they have a strong script before announcing a Star Wars film. Everyone seems to have realized, except them, that many directors dream of making their Star Wars film, but when asked for a script, there's nothing. The biggest problem with Star Wars is that since Lucas stopped fueling his imagination, it's been a void in terms of ideas. We recycle and recycle and recycle, but we move away from anything that could be truly original.

 

One of the great strengths of Lucas's original trilogy was that we knew there were things hidden from us, references to hidden things, past events (the Clone Wars, the supposed murder of Luke's father by a young Jedi named Vader, who is this Emperor, why is he pulling the strings, etc.). I fear that if Disney eventually gets a solid script (and I doubt it) for Rey's first film, it will be a small film where everything is said, where there is no mystery, where the groundwork for a sequel has not already been laid.

 

They will do the Jaws trick, where they will make disjointed films, just adding a number to the title to mark the chronology. It's Disney's bankruptcy. They don't have a strong author to perpetuate the Star Wars Universe.

 

Great ambitions they have, but no means.

[greenturnedblue 372]

54 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Great ambitions they have, but no means

 

I would argue the opposite. Disney, the biggest entertainment conglomerate on the planet, surely has the means to procure a strong script. 

 

Why they do not is beyond me, a lack of ambition, perhaps 

[wtraversinc@gmail.com 2]

Can't wait to see Rey back in action building a new Jedi Order. Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy directing sounds like a fresh take.