SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Brónach 1,302]

4 hours ago, crocodile said:

Just seen the film. Haven't heard almost any of the music or seen any spoilers. It's a mixed bag. Some of it is quite fun actually, some of it I didn't care for. The main gripe really is that, once again, Indy is a secondary character that needs to be dragged everywhere. And, oddly, he's been once again investigated by authorities and, again, nothing comes of it. But at least some of the action and cinematography both feel more real and tactile. The main McGuffin I did not care for much. I wasn't following that too close, to be honest. The climax felt quite disjointed.

 

The music was good, although I struggled to hear it a lot of the time under the sound effects. The multiple musical easter eggs at the beginning might seem slightly frustrating at first but they also make some sense at least. Williams definitely doesn't sound his age. Thankfully, the film wasn’t too overspotted so music never feels as siffocating as in some recent blockbusters.

 

I have no strong feelings about this movie one way or another. There's just as much good stuff in it as there is not so good stuff. Neither a disaster nor a triumph, just "another one".

 

Just one more thing. Indy is sad a lot of the time and see him being dragged into endless chases feels bit cruel. He really is tired and something about this whole affair, especially next to over-enthusiastic Waller-Bridge, makes it all seem, I don't know, wrong? I'm not saying Ford can't pull it off physically but there's just this weird undignified feeling of trying to recapture certain feeling that is long gone. Even in the WWII sequence, the de-ageing doesn't look right. It feels off. Instead of being swept by adventures, I kept catching myself thinking about ageing and mortality... Not sure if it wouldn't be best to just leave it be.

 

Karol

 

to me, this review indicates that i may find the movie horrible.

[JNHFan2000 2,968]

I'm gonna go fully the otber way. Because I honestly don't get what everyone feel s is so wrong with this. Maybe it's just me, but I liked almost all of Kingdom Of The Crustal Skull as well. But I don't really care what otger people think. I jad a blast, as did my audience. Big reactions throughout.

 

Ford doesn't miss a beat and his chemistry with Waller-Bridge is great.
The opening sequence with young Indy is fantastic. As are all the action scenes!
I really enjoyed the ending and thought it was really beautiful. A fitting end to one of cinema's best characters.

And nice callback to the "where doesn't it hurt" scene. Got a bih reaction in my theatre.

 

Williams' score is incredible. There is quite some stuff missing. Especially the extended action scenes. So that is a bit of a shame (I could've gone without the violin cue). But what we got on the album is still wonderful.

[Damien F 1,742]

The sequel trilogy took the trio of heroes from the OT and made their lives after ROTJ miserable.

For all its faults, at least KOTCS gave Indy a happy ending with Marion. But then DOD undoes that happy ending to make Indy and (off screen) Marion miserable again. The problem is that Indy remains miserable for most of the film. He has little agency in the film and was often dragged along by Helena or having being kidnapped by the villains.

 

Undoing Indy's happy ending from KOTCS and making him a sad sack at the start of the film only to find some solace at the end just feels like cheap screenwriting basic box-ticking instead of giving fans what we actually want to see in an Indy movie. Indy could still have had an adventure with Helena even if he was still happily married to Marion at home. Mutt just needed a one line mention that he's off exploring somewhere.

 

I'm not surprised Helena's theme appears so much more than Indy's theme because she really drives the plot and provides much of the levity.

 

That being said, for what he is asked to do, I think Ford gave a great performance and he has good chemistry with Waller-Bridge.

[Edmilson 7,473]

1 hour ago, rough cut said:

 

 

"Assistant to William Ross"? Really? How come Ross gets an assistant and Williams doesn't? And what is their role exactly? If Ross indedd ghostwrote parts of this score (as a conspiracy theory that is running around the forum states), then did his assistants actually were the ones who ghostwrote the cues that Ross was supposed to ghostwrite (and are credited to Williams)? Geez...

[Brónach 1,302]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

"Assistant to William Ross"? Really? How come Ross gets an assistant and Williams doesn't? And what is their role exactly? If Ross indedd ghostwrote parts of this score (as a conspiracy theory that is running around the forum states), then did his assistants actually were the ones who ghostwrote the cues that Ross was supposed to ghostwrite (and are credited to Williams)? Geez...

 

i've wondered about this. if a score says "Hans Zimmer and John Powell" or "Hans Zimmer and JNH" who is ghostwriting each? do they have separate ghostwriting teams? does anybody ghostwrite for the ghostwriting teams?

[Holko 9,531]

Well this is definitely a movie that exists.

[Jay 37,373]

No spoiler blocks are needed in this thread 

[Edmilson 7,473]

14 minutes ago, Brónach said:

i've wondered about this. if a score says "Hans Zimmer and John Powell" or "Hans Zimmer and JNH" who is ghostwriting each? do they have separate ghostwriting teams? does anybody ghostwrite for the ghostwriting teams?

The funniest part is that scores like Batman Begins and TDK (where every single cue is credited to HZ and JNH) and Kung Fu Panda 1 and 2 (everything credited to HZ and JP) were also ghostwritten by Lorne Balfe, Ramin Djawadi and the whole RC gang. But this is another rabbit hole...

 

In JW's case, if he used assistants Zimmer-style, that could explain the short OST album (which would only contain what he wrote).

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Indiana Jones is my #1 favourite series.

I just watched the movie and I like it!

Looking forward to seeing it many more times, along the other ones.

 

I don't know why anyone would have major gripes with it.

But my friend who was with me didn't like it much either.

 

Well, you can all be crazy for all I care!

I'm just grateful we got another fun adventure!

[oierem 152]

Just saw the movie. Some quick thoughts:

(and as a disclaimer, I'm one of the weirdos who liked Crystal Skull)

-Overall, the movie improved as it went on, Maybe because the first half is heavily featured in trailers, I enjoyed the second half more.

-No paramount dissolve! No "Germany 1944" (IIRC). No opening credits montague!!

-Prologue: too dark, too confusing to follow. The music was very distracting, as every single second was reused from another film. It took me out of the film.

-NY: the music was very cool, very different from usual Indy films. 

-Morocco: this is were the fun begins! I really liked both Helena and Teddy. The auction scene and the subsequent accion sequence were great fun.

-Coast of Athens: there were some nice scenes focusing on the characters. But I do feel that this segment could've been shortened/cut.

-Sicily: great locations, great suspence, great action. I definitely enjoyed this part.

-Climax: veeeery surprising, I didn't expect how it played out. I loved how crazy it was, and how it dared to do something different. I still do't know if it was brilliant or stupid.

-As I said, Helena was a great character (and her theme is brilliantly used). And I liked Teddy a lot too (and, despite the billing order, he is clearly one of the leading characters).

-I felt Indy's arc was a bit pointless, since it's exactly the same arc as in KOTCS. He is old, he feels he doesn't belong anywhere anymore, he gets dragged into an adventure, and gets a family. 

 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

25 minutes ago, oierem said:

every single second was reused from another film.

Not EVERY second.

I definitely heard original material too.

[oierem 152]

12 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Not EVERY second.

I definitely heard original material too.

 

Probably, yeah. But mostly it was reused music. Or so it seems to me.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

1 minute ago, oierem said:

 

Probably, yeah. But mostly it was reused music. Or so it seems to me.

It did indeed make a lot of references in a short time.

In a way, I enjoyed it. And was happy to hear Temple of Doom wasn't left out either.

The complete edition will have to teach us how much original music there was.

I couldn't quite tell in my one viewing so far.

 

I'm glad I knew what to expect before going in.

Otherwise might've been distracted too.

[Holko 9,531]

Overall probably my biggest problem is that while the ideas are there, they don't seem to really truly assemble into a coherent satisfying whole that feels like it had to be made or was that worth making. Some are done well enough, some are underdeveloped, some things are just ignored or change offscreen. Some get way too convoluted and confusing.

 

I did not loathe it though by any means. But I really did not love it either.

[1977 1,743]

For those that have seen it, is this more TFA or more TLJ in terms of tone/style/approach versus the originals? Greatest hits or bold risk taking/subversion of expectations?

 

I may decide to go and see this on my birthday next week depending on the feedback to above. If I skip it, it will be the only Indy film I don't see on release in a cinema.

[crocodile 8,019]

12 minutes ago, Holko said:

Overall probably my biggest problem is that while the ideas are there, they don't seem to really truly assemble into a coherent satisfying whole that feels like it had to be made or was that worth making. Some are done well enough, some are underdeveloped, some things are just ignored or change offscreen. Some get way too convoluted and confusing.

Yes, precisely. In its smaller moments, the film does a lot of the stuff right. To be honest, I mostly like the character interactions, the locations, some setpieces and what era thry explore. The main premise is interesting and there's a lot of cool stuff in it. But, you're right, it doesn't quite convince as a whole film. Felt really long as well. The third act feels like a letdown, not because of the central idea behind it, but because Indy has no impact whatsoever on the outcome and neither does the villain. It's very unsatisfying, sort of like Crystal Skull. That segment also ends quite abruptly (also literally). If I watch it again, it would be to hear more music.

 

Oh they shouldn't have used the word "fissures" to describe anything of mystique, ever. 😆

 

1 minute ago, JTWfan77 said:

For those that have sent it, is this more TFA or more TLJ in terms of tone/style/approach versus the originals? Greatest hits or bold risk taking/subversion of expectations?

 

I may decide to go and see this on my birthday next week depending on the feedback to above. If I skip it, it will be the only Indy film I don't see on release in a cinema.

It's more Crystal Skull 2.0. Better in some respects, worse in others. Overall, about the same level.

 

Karol

[1977 1,743]

I see the rating here is 16LPV moderate violence, threat, injury detail, that seems a bit intense for an Indy film. Surely this isn't TOD level stuff, and even that I got to see on release when I was 12.

[crocodile 8,019]

3 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

I see the rating here is 16LPV moderate violence, threat, injury detail, that seems a bit intense for an Indy film. Surely this isn't TOD level stuff, and even that I got to see on release when I was 12.

It is more violent than KOTCS, for sure. While not shockingly gory or anything, I was surprised by what they were able to show in this Disney movie.

 

Karol

[Holko 9,531]

It gets more graphic at one point than ToD and people get shot dead left and right, not just faceless goons either.

 

 

Ford was great in it for sure.

 

10 minutes ago, crocodile said:

 

Oh they shouldn't have used the word "fissures" to describe anything of mystique, ever. 😆

One thing: In the first 4, the objects and their powers are all explained. Even if it's just "god cursed it", "you know it from mythology" or "it's aliens", that's something.

Here, the object is just a calculator/compass, and the time fissures it points to are just... accepted to exist out of nowhere?

 

Time travel would be a good tool to fit with the theme of old age, wanting to revisit the past, return to old glories, or make things right (or "right"), well here's the tool to do it now, would you truly do it? Hell Indy literally wants to keep living in the past at the end! But I just didn't feel it was executed all that well.

[HunterTech 994]

55 minutes ago, Holko said:

Overall probably my biggest problem is that while the ideas are there, they don't seem to really truly assemble into a coherent satisfying whole that feels like it had to be made or was that worth making. Some are done well enough, some are underdeveloped, some things are just ignored or change offscreen. Some get way too convoluted and confusing.

 

I did not loathe it though by any means. But I really did not love it either.

This in a way manages to sum up my feelings on KotCS lol. A film that I certainly think presented me with a lot to potentially grab onto, yet ultimately resulting in something that was a clear result of ideas being thrown around that didn't manage to stick. I guess it shouldn't be that surprising that the follow up with a sort of similar history would wind up similarly, but with that modern Lucasfilm sheen instead of a mostly disinterested Spielberg.

 

33 minutes ago, Holko said:

One thing: In the first 4, the objects and their powers are all explained. Even if it's just "god cursed it", "you know it from mythology" or "it's aliens", that's something.

Here, the object is just a calculator/compass, and the time fissures it points to are just... accepted to exist out of nowhere?

 

Time travel would be a good tool to fit with the theme of old age, wanting to revisit the past, return to old glories, or make things right (or "right"), well here's the tool to do it now, would you truly do it? Hell Indy literally wants to keep living in the past at the end! But I just didn't feel it was executed all that well.

This is where I end up starting to wonder what the original Koepp draft was, since based on the information given, I could almost pick up on what might've been an idea for the finale. Particularly with the mention of Mutt's passing, which could've been set up for Indy instead wanting to go to the point where he could've prevented it. Seems like it could parallel Voller in what he wanted to accomplish, plus (this sounds like a stretch, but I'm sure Steven might've thought about it over the years) going back to an idea War of the Worlds posed regarding a dad letting his son risk his life for a greater cause. And yet what happens? The status quo remains largely unchanged, so I guess that's mighty fine.

[Holko 9,531]

In the time travel sequence I also couldn't help but wonder how Steven would've approached this - a younger Steven maybe. Surely more interestingly than the bomber just flying around and the crazy guy shooting all over randomly for minutes, and then they just get shot enough that they finally crash?

 

I dunno, the whole sequence was too much for an Indy "macguffin gets used, bad guys die from misusing it, good guy resists it" sequence, but too little happens for a proper time travel sequence. The abrupt ending and Archimedes just standing there doing nothing, not even trying to talk to them or learn from them or help them doesn't help with that.

[Brónach 1,302]

I wrote a post frustrated at a movie I haven't been able to see but then i felt bad about that. It was, however, similar to my comments on Kingdom.
 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

6 hours ago, Holko said:

feels like it had to be made or was that worth making.

In a way, I can see what you mean.

The story is nothing earth-shattering.

It's really "just" one other adventure for our hero.

But that's exactly what I wanted out of it, so I'm happy.

It didn't need to reinvent the wheel for me.

 

6 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

For those that have seen it, is this more TFA or more TLJ in terms of tone/style/approach versus the originals? Greatest hits or bold risk taking/subversion of expectations?

Not much subverting.

It's just a straight adventure.

I recommendb watching it.

This is our last chance and I reckon it's worth making the most of it.

 

6 hours ago, crocodile said:

Indy has no impact whatsoever on the outcome and neither does the villain.

I can see that too.

I was quite surprised to see the main villain for once did NOT have a gruesome mythical death.

In fact, I don't even remember how he died.

It was wholly forgettable.

But that's not what this movie is about.

I liked seeing Ancient Greece.

And meeting Archimedes was SO COOL!

 

6 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

I see the rating here is 16LPV moderate violence, threat, injury detail, that seems a bit intense for an Indy film. Surely this isn't TOD level stuff, and even that I got to see on release when I was 12.

My friend did notice it's on the more violent side.

Certainly compared to Skull.

 

6 hours ago, Holko said:

Here, the object is just a calculator/compass, and the time fissures it points to are just... accepted to exist out of nowhere?

That's indeed a bit of a plot hole.

But I guess in the world of Indy, they could exist?

Certainly not so crazy if you consider the types of things that happen in the Novels as well.

[HB Potlood 33]

In the film, just after they arrive in Athens, there appears to be a large group of tourists standing behind Indy. Did I spot Steven Spielberg just over his shoulder or was that my imagination? And if it was Spielberg, were Lucas, Kennedy and Marshall there too just like in Temple of Doom?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

10 minutes ago, HB Potlood said:

In the film, just after they arrive in Athens, there appears to be a large group of tourists standing behind Indy. Did I spot Steven Spielberg just over his shoulder or was that my imagination? And if it was Spielberg, were Lucas, Kennedy and Marshall there too just like in Temple of Doom?

Someone I was talking to on Facebook yesterday thought he saw the same thing.

It'd only make sense to put a nice cameo in there.

Why hire random extras when you can put a bit more meaning into things?

[HB Potlood 33]

3 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Someone I was talking to on Facebook yesterday thought he saw the same thing.

It'd only make sense to put a nice cameo in there.

Why hire random extras when you can put a bit more meaning into things?

That, and Spielberg seems to prefer making cameos in other people's films rather than his own (Blues Brothers, Gremlins). The exception being Temple of Doom, but he's not really identifiable in that one. 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

1 hour ago, HB Potlood said:

That, and Spielberg seems to prefer making cameos in other people's films rather than his own (Blues Brothers, Gremlins). The exception being Temple of Doom, but he's not really identifiable in that one. 

Indeed I didn't even know about his Doom cameo until yesterday.

Fun nod though!

[crumbs 14,319]

13 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

My friend did notice it's on the more violent side.

Certainly compared to Skull.

 

Felt like an overcorrection to the bloodless, Looney Tunes-esque "violence" in Crystal Skull.

 

The body count is probably on par with the earlier films but the violence feels nastier – Indy's work colleagues getting murdered sets the tone early.

 

Very different to Spielberg's "fun" violence from the earlier films (people being shot in the chest isn't comparable to being impaled by a flaming shish kabob).

[Pieter Boelen 740]

21 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Felt like an overcorrection to the bloodless, Looney Tunes-esque "violence" in Crystal Skull.

 

The body count is probably on par with the earlier films but the violence feels nastier – Indy's work colleagues getting murdered sets the tone early.

 

Very different to Spielberg's "fun" violence from the earlier films (people being shot in the chest isn't comparable to being impaled by a flaming shish kabob).

Have to say, I agree.

The villains really had NO scrupules!

I'd have liked some more characterization though.

They felt like fairly blank nasty pieces of work.

[crumbs 14,319]

9 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Have to say, I agree.

The villains really had NO scrupules!

I'd have liked some more characterization though.

They felt like fairly blank nasty pieces of work.

 

They all felt underdeveloped and I never really got the sense of who was who or what their allegiances were. Who was the older guy who vanishes halfway into the New York scenes?! Did he get crushed by the falling shelves?

 

The concept of Nazis working on Operation Paperclip was ripe to explore, but I don't think the film did a good job explaining Voller/Schmitt's involvement in that program.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Just got back from seeing this. I spent the first hour and forty-five minutes or so wondering why everyone hated this movie as I was very much enjoying the action and how grounded the characters felt. Then the time travel sequence came along and suddenly I understood. It’s like the whole movie jumped the shark in a matter of seconds.

[Holko 9,531]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

They all felt underdeveloped and I never really got the sense of who was who or what their allegiances were. Who was the older guy who vanishes halfway into the New York scenes?! Did he get crushed by the falling shelves?

 

The concept of Nazis working on Operation Paperclip was ripe to explore, but I don't think the film did a good job explaining Voller/Schmitt's involvement in that program.

The Pat Roach guy was pretty unmemorable. And who was the american henchman? He said he wasn't CIA, is he just some random neonazi Vollner found?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I assumed all the bad guys were either OG Nazis or their children, with the exception of the black lady who was apparently CIA.

[Hurmm 91]

The opening 40 minutes of action were pretty damn good, save for it being a little dark visually and Ford's de-aging still firmly in uncanny valley. 

 

The tuk-tuk chase was really fun, and reminded me of the falcon chase in the Adventures or Tintin. Those are some of the speediest and most manoeuvrable tuk-tuks ever. 

 

I liked the music. 

 

The rest was very meh. As someone pointed out above, Indy is sad throughout the whole movie and Helena being so chirpy and perky the entire time became irksome. 

 

When the twist in the finale happened what came to mind was the end of Evil Dead II...and that crossed over the overtly campy Army of Darkness but I don't think it works here. 

[King Mark 3,631]

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Just got back from seeing this. I spent the first hour and forty-five minutes or so wondering why everyone hated this movie as I was very much enjoying the action and how grounded the characters felt. Then the time travel sequence came along and suddenly I understood. It’s like the whole movie jumped the shark in a matter of seconds.

 Actually for me it was the opposite,. I didn't like the stuff happening in New York after the prologue (the horse riding sequence especially) and it got better when they started to go into tombs and stuff

11 minutes ago, Hurmm said:

 

 

The rest was very meh. As someone pointed out above, Indy is sad throughout the whole movie and Helena being so chirpy and perky the entire time became irksome. 

 

 She wasn't as bad as I thought she'd be and I thought Ford played Indy appropriately for the whole movie

[Andy 4,141]

Pic for attention. 
my review is below. 
 

 

 

I liked it, but wanted to love it more.   It’s very good, and Harrison Ford is amazing. 

 

I’m still processing it and am seeing it again tomorrow.  Because I really haven’t reconciled what I liked with what I didn’t. 

 

The action is good, but I don’t care for modern camerawork and CG stunts. 

 

The prologue was cool but, somehow I was expecting de-aged Indy to be flawless, as it was built up. He wasn’t.  And the direct quotes to other scores in the prologue were quite distracting for a film score fan.  I do NOT like when Williams does a “greatest hits” piece like this when we could’ve had an Indy’s First Adventure train motif, but more gripping and grown up. 
 

I loved the dial itself. I loved the Archimedean displacement device.  Thanks, 6th grade science class!    I like that as before with the grail and the Ark and the Skull (and I guess the Sankara Stone), the artifact didn’t really work the way the villains hoped it would.
 

I liked Helena just fine , but was confused as to what really changed her character arc. Her motives were cash and she took advantage Indy to go after the Dial simply for money. I suppose she has some Daddy Issues too. But then she changed and decided she wanted to help piece Indy’s life back together. Why?

 

Teddy was fun, but did they have to have Helena pick him up with a backstory identical to Short Round’s?  Because Shorty he ain’t. 
 

The villains were all great but ultimately unfulfilling in their destinies.  These were really nasty Nazis. I appreciated Mangold getting in a trigger happy American becoming a Nazi as commentary that not all of them are German. @Holko I think that was the point of him being an American henchman. 
 

But… he and Voller both deserved a better comeuppance than simply dying in the plane crash.  I mean how many people did that asshole shoot??? He should have had a gory Spielberg style death.  The brute Giant… well how in the world do they have 80 year old Ford fist fight him?  The answer is, they simply couldn’t.  And that made me sad, because the fights with Dovchenko 15 years ago were superb. 
 

The ending in Sicily… meeting Archimedes reminded me a little of when Bill and Ted met Socrates. I expected Indy to quote “Dust in the Wind” 🤣

 

I have to listen to the soundtrack on its own. My initial impressions were that it was somewhat buried, but had some nice bits. Not spectacular like Rise of Skywalker for me. It could’ve used one more emotional “Older Indy” theme, like the Rise of Skywalker theme to give the film a little more charm, heart, and soothing the audience that this is indeed the last time with Dr. Jones. 
 

And here’s my biggest criticism that I hope my next viewing will change my mind.   I think having Indy be simply old and grumpy would’ve been enough to give him an arc.  Killing off his son really hurt to hear.  It was heartbreaking for me personally, which I can get into another time.  And Ford acted it fabulously when he told Helena what he’d do if he could go back in time.  But there was a STRONG undercurrent of grief and sadness that pulled everything down from being as much fun as it could be.  I couldn’t shake it that this hero was truly a broken man throughout most of the movie.  And even reconciliation with Marion won’t bring back their son. 

 

I know everyone hated Shia. I did not. I think the actor is whacko, but he delivered a fine performance. And last we saw the Joneses, they were quite happy.  This movie ALIEN³’d the characters, which never works well for me. 
 

I don’t know if killing Mutt was some sort of filmmaker apology to the fans, but I felt it hurt the movie in a way I didn’t see coming. Who’d have thought that the vine swinging greaser would have such a profound impact on this entire film?

 

I have to accept that Ford is 81 and can’t do his own stunts.  He can barely run and you can see it in the film.  It made me sad. 

I also missed some of the Spielbergian touches. Mangold is not Spielberg.   This is a film made for adults, not all ages.  But, again that is partially due to the titular hero being an old man.    I did however loved him griping about being old while climbing and his reference to drinking the blood of Kali!  But for a character that can’t run and punch, they could’ve had him use his goddam BULLWHIP a little more!!!!  Seriously, why do the writers hate the whip so much?  Ever since Temple of Doom he barely uses it!!  It’s part of the character’s DNA, not a costume accessory. 
 

It’s a great story, a good adventure, a bit too long, and one I hope to come to respect and maybe one day adore with repeated viewings. I’ve warmed to Crystal Skull, but I remember walking out of the theater not knowing how I felt about it.  Same with DoD.   I like this movie, but it’s complicated.

[TolkienSS 407]

The more I read about this film, the more I realize I really don't want to see it.

[Andy 4,141]

You should make up your own mind.  It's got a lot of good in it.  I hope to grow around it and learn to love it, but my initial feelings for it are complex.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

5 hours ago, King Mark said:

 Actually for me it was the opposite,. I didn't like the stuff happening in New York after the prologue (the horse riding sequence especially) and it got better when they started to go into tombs and stuff

Erm… I liked the tombs too. As I said, it only stopped working for me at the end when the characters reached Ancient Syracuse. The rest of the movie I liked quite a lot, especially the tuk tuk chase and the eel sequence.

[crumbs 14,319]

Can someone clarify what exactly the Dial's power is? Is it just a compass that guides people towards the time fissures, or does it create and open the fissures themselves based on coordinates entered into the Dial?

 

I found this aspect of the film very confusing.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Just now, crumbs said:

Can someone clarify what exactly the Dial's power is? Is it just a compass that guides people towards the time fissures, or does it create and open the fissures themselves?

 

I found this aspect of the film very convoluted.

 

Yeah the movie could have explained this part better, but what I got out of it is that the fissures in time are naturally occurring. The dial just tells you where they will be. At one point Indy suggests Voller has the wrong coordinates because Archimedes didn’t know about continental drift. Later, he suggests that Archimedes intentionally made the dial direct its users to Syracuse because he was hoping to save the city with help from the future. Then there’s never any follow up explanations after that.

[crumbs 14,319]

Kinda bizarre. Wouldn't modern airplanes be flying through these time fissures everywhere, ending up in random times and places?

 

5 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

Later, he suggests that Archimedes intentionally made the dial direct its users to Syracuse because he was hoping to save the city with help from the future. 

 

Then why was the Dial disassembled and hidden?

[Holko 9,531]

1 hour ago, Andy said:

 

I liked Helena just fine , but was confused as to what really changed her character arc. Her motives were cash and she took advantage Indy to go after the Dial simply for money. I suppose she has some Daddy Issues too. But then she changed and decided she wanted to help piece Indy’s life back together. Why?

I really think she should have had a heart to heart convo with Indy to sort out their shitty pasts and get closer together. Maybe after the boat escape, after the "that was fun!" "My friend is dead" exchange.

1 hour ago, Andy said:

I couldn’t shake it that this hero was truly a broken man throughout most of the movie.  And even reconciliation with Marion won’t bring back their son. 

And I think many people's problem with the ending is that he still remains broken. In fact he might break even more, wanting to give up and stay in the past, but is just forcibly brought back with zero agency.

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

Later, he suggests that Archimedes intentionally made the dial direct its users to Syracuse because he was hoping to save the city with help from the future.

In which case the continental drift stuff makes no difference. Or it does and Archimedes miscalculated too? It really overcomplicates itself.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

56 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Kinda bizarre. Wouldn't modern airplanes be flying through these time fissures everywhere, ending up in random times and places?

 

Yes, to say nothing of fissures that might appear on the ground, in the ocean, etc. These movies always steer closer to pseudoscience topics than to real archeology of course, but one would think that even in a universe where all ancient magical legends seem to be real something like this would have consequences. Seems like people would be finding anachronistic or out of place artifacts all the time.

 

56 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Then why was the Dial disassembled and hidden?

 

Easy. That's so the movie can happen!

 

54 minutes ago, Holko said:

I really think she should have had a heart to heart convo with Indy to sort out their shitty pasts and get closer together. Maybe after the boat escape, after the "that was fun!" "My friend is dead" exchange.

And I think many people's with the ending is that he still remains broken. In fact he might break even more, wanting to give up and stay in the past, but is brought back with zero agency.

 

I 100% agree.

 

54 minutes ago, Holko said:

In which case the continental drift stuff makes no difference. Or it does and Archimedes miscalculated too? It really overcomplicates itself.

 

Well either explanation works, but to include both in the finished film was a mistake. It's exactly the kind of detail that's made most of the Kennedy era Lucasfilms feel like like unpolished/unfinished rough drafts.

[Holko 9,531]

3 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

Well either explanation works, but to include both in the finished film was a mistake.

If we take only the miscalculation, it's a hell of a plot convenience that the miscalculation does lead to another fissure that happens to be open and happens to lead to Archimedes.

 

If we take only the "he wanted reinforcements", that just feels weak to me, and makes it weird too that he just stands there looking at them, no real conversation, no trying to learn something from them, nothing. And the fakeout that makes him in his tomb seem like a time traveller who's already been to the future really cheap.

[mrbellamy 6,291]

I think it got better as it went along (whereas Crystal Skull got worse) but it did feel superfluous and makes the already superfluous Crystal Skull feel even more superfluous. Especially with Mutt and Marion, like Indy rides into the sunset and these are the two stories you guys just HAVE to tell? 

 

I was initially defensive of the Star Wars heroes being old and depressed in the sequels but now it's such a Lucasfilm cliche that I'm convinced everybody over there is telling on themselves. They all either must hate being old or they're terrified of becoming old.

 

I'd still give both Indy 4 and 5 like 6/10, not sure which one I prefer. They just feel like twin case studies in leaving things alone. 

 

I really could not get into the prologue at all, idk...I thought it looked pretty bad and the action immediately kind of zoned me out. Helena, I liked fine, I found the early scenes with her especially charming. I appreciated overall how this movie is more violent than Crystal Skull, whenever the bad guys murder someone it feels shocking. Once the airport scene kicks in, I did really enjoy that, I felt the buildup of all that and then Syracuse is just bananas, it's really fun and it felt like a "fuck it, this is Indy 5" decision in a good way.

 

But then it does just end and the Marion scene, idk. It was okay, it was sweet, but I just wasn't invested. They didn't convince me that I needed to know any of this. 

 

The music did really stand out to me throughout, I'm happy about that. Again especially the airport, he's such a big part of ratcheting up all the tension, I think that was my favorite piece of score. 

[crumbs 14,319]

My biggest criticism of the film is that Indy doesn't make the choice to go home, Helena makes it for him.

 

That's... a bold choice to make for your protagonist 5 minutes before the credits roll, robbing them of their agency. There needed to be a moment of self-reflection where Indy realised, as a man of science, he couldn't stay in the past without consequences for the future. All the film needed was a few shots of cowering families huddled together while the battle raged around them. A mother and father consoling a scared child, which provides Indy the epiphany he needed to return home and repair his life with Marion.

 

There's stronger characterization they could've explored with the Dial. Voller has a very clear motivation for wanting the Dial. Indy... doesn't really have any? Which is very strange, because it seems like the film was setting this up when Basil pleaded with him to destroy the Dial but Indy just kept it? What if he's obsessed with the Dial's power and wanted to use it to save Mutt?

 

That story might have been stronger, creating parallel objectives for Voller and Indy. Voller wants to kill Hitler. Indy wants to save his son. In true Indiana Jones style, neither get what they want, but the lesson Indy learns is that repairing his life with Marion is more important than changing history to save his son, with all the consequences that would wrought. Maybe the film's emotional climax is Indy having a moral dilemma where he can save Mutt but Voller changes the outcome of WWII, so he has to let Mutt go in order to stop Voller?

 

I think all this would've landed much more satisfyingly than Voller just dying in a plane crash and Indy getting knocked out and their subsequent return trip happening off-screen.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,552]

The endings of all four previous IJ films, show Indy gaining something, unexpectedly (a former girlfriend; enlightenment; his father; the former girlfriend - again).

This film promises more of the same.

 

[Holko 9,531]

11 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I really could not get into the prologue at all, idk...I thought it looked pretty bad and the action immediately kind of zoned me out.

In general most of the chase scenes were a bit too hectic and long to me, with some unclear geography and not many creative gags. Compare the tuktuk chase through random streets with them accidentally finding the already completely gone Vollner multiple times to Tintin's Bagghar chase!

But the Prologue especially was a but too long, I almost groaned the third time Indy entered a carriage and had to quietly evade mazis, stopping the momentum dead yet again.

[Edmilson 7,473]

16 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I was initially defensive of the Star Wars heroes being old and depressed in the sequels but now it's such a Lucasfilm cliche that I'm convinced everybody over there is telling on themselves. They all either must hate being old or they're terrified of becoming old.

 

Initially I used to think Hollywood screenwriters are just lazy and think making old heroes depressed and miserable is the easiest way to bring them back, but... A few days ago, I posted a New Yorker article on the MCU, and at some point the screenwriters being interviewed said that parts of those movies were inspired on their own personal lives, even if unconsciously (one of them found out through therapy sessions years after the fact that the relationship he wrote between Thor and Odin is based on his own relationship with his father).

 

So yeah, I think you might be onto something here.

 

You can find the article here: