SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Edmilson 7,473]

5 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

one thing about killing off Mutt, at least to me, it comes off too 'meta'

 

its like hey, you know that character/actor that nobody seemed to agree on?

 

let's kill him for Indy's arc in DoD.

 

I'm sure there's precedent for this (can't think of any off the top of my head), and I'm not even trying to say I'm feeling this because i didn't mind Mutt, it just seemed like low-effort, low-hanging fruit.  And purposely treating KOTCS like a poor entry in the franchise.  Too meta.

 

What's worse (KOTCS's fault, ultimately) is that we barely see Indy and Mutt establish a good father/son relationship.

 

Something about killing him off comes off as lazy, even if it does work for DoD's story.

 

If you're going to make a 'pointless' character, atleast don't make him a family member.

 

 

I guess one of the reasons Mutt died (and offscreen) was because Shia got metoo-ed a while ago. Disney, being the Magical Kingdom for families with children, doesn't want anything to do with someone accused of sex crimes.

 

4 hours ago, Brónach said:

half of KIngdom should have taken place in Kuzkotopia or whatever

I'd love an Indiana Jones/The Emperor's New Groove crossover!

[Bellosh 3,419]

1 minute ago, Edmilson said:

I guess one of the reasons Mutt died (and offscreen) was because Shia got metoo-ed a while ago. Disney, being the Magical Kingdom for families with children, doesn't want anything to do with someone accused of sex crimes.

 

this i did NOT know. well....

 

i just remember his "just do it" yelling video lol and was like oh dude must be nuts now or some shit.

[Edmilson 7,473]

3 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

this i did NOT know. well....

 

i just remember his "just do it" yelling video lol and was like oh dude must be nuts now or some shit.

You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_LaBeouf#Abuse_allegations

 

But yeah, even before that, he had gone pretty crazy for a while ago.

[Bellosh 3,419]

well disney either brings you back or kills you off i guess.

 

making Indy miserable with a death of a family member is lazy.

 

his mother died when he was very young, horrible relationship with his father and he's experienced both world wars. 

 

but now all of a sudden, for a son he never knew about for 19 years, it's the straw that broke the camels back between him and marion? 

 

it's like faux-dark for the sakeness of dark.

 

 

 

[HunterTech 994]

No one remembers Spielberg getting pissed off over Shia disparaging KotCS? I honestly believe his death was probably the one holdover from when it was just Steven and Koepp on the project, if he apparently had enough power to get rid of Megan Fox in the third Transformers movie.

 

I did see the movie this weekend alongside the rerun of Pirates 1, but my thoughts about it have been spiraling so much that I think I want to make a full fledged review on that section of the website.

[TolkienSS 407]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I guess one of the reasons Mutt died (and offscreen) was because Shia got metoo-ed a while ago. Disney, being the Magical Kingdom for families with children, 

 

😂😂😂

 

Is this 1990?

That ship has sailed.

[karelm 2,915]

7 hours ago, Bellosh said:

one thing about killing off Mutt, at least to me, it comes off too 'meta'

 

its like hey, you know that character/actor that nobody seemed to agree on?

 

let's kill him for Indy's arc in DoD.

 

I'm sure there's precedent for this (can't think of any off the top of my head), and I'm not even trying to say I'm feeling this because i didn't mind Mutt, it just seemed like low-effort, low-hanging fruit.  And purposely treating KOTCS like a poor entry in the franchise.  Too meta.

 

What's worse (KOTCS's fault, ultimately) is that we barely see Indy and Mutt establish a good father/son relationship.

 

Something about killing him off comes off as lazy, even if it does work for DoD's story.

 

If you're going to make a 'pointless' character, atleast don't make him a family member.

 

 

You are hinting at the obvious flaw in the film.  Story telling by committee.  AKA Disney interference. "It rated poorly with fans so get rid of that thing they hated.  Oh, wait...we need to explain why a major plot point/character isn't around now...so then kill that character/plot off" type of thing.  That's what doomed Star Wars sequel trilogy too.  It's a tricky balance.  A major part of what makes Star Wars and early Indy great is Lucas was the story teller and hated story telling by committee AKA studio interference but that was also one of the criticisms of prequel trilogy, he needed more restraint. Ultimately it needs to be balanced.  So I would argue what made TOS so great was Lucas had balance with sympathetic story tellers in his editor (Marcia Lucas) and producer (the late Gary Kurtz). Too much one way or the other is a failure. 

[Bellosh 3,419]

20 minutes ago, karelm said:

You are hinting at the obvious flaw in the film.  Story telling by committee.  AKA Disney interference. "It rated poorly with fans so get rid of that thing they hated.  Oh, wait...we need to explain why a major plot point/character isn't around now...so then kill that character/plot off" type of thing.  That's what doomed Star Wars sequel trilogy too.  It's a tricky balance.  A major part of what makes Star Wars and early Indy great is Lucas was the story teller and hated story telling by committee AKA studio interference but that was also one of the criticisms of prequel trilogy, he needed more restraint. Ultimately it needs to be balanced.  So I would argue what made TOS so great was Lucas had balance with sympathetic story tellers in his editor (Marcia Lucas) and producer (the late Gary Kurtz). Too much one way or the other is a failure. 

 

apparently this movie had 4 writers..including Mangold

 

does Indy 5 really need that many hands on deck, even if they are just small credits to the non-major contributors?

 

Isn't this why KOTCS sucked.  They peeled too many ideas from horrible scripts?

 

but yes, i understand complaining about Disney's bureaucracy is the equivalent of screaming into the void.  but LLL or Intrada haven't released Stepmom 2CD so I got nothing else to talk about besides 'To Athens' which is probably my favorite cue since Plowing.

[HunterTech 994]

Yeah, didn't they like straight up throw out whole scripts prior to KotCS? Cause I know TLC had a completely different idea originally before shifting to what it did (which still necessitated a whole rewrite from a different writer than the one that is credited).

 

That being said, I would love to know the whole writing process behind DoD, especially now having watched it. Particularly with Koepp retaining a credit, which calls into question how much they did start from scratch once the other writers came in with Mangold. The manner in which a lot of ideas are brought up, but never really followed up on is something that warrants a whole study in my opinion.

 

It's less that there being many writers is the issue (the original Spider-Man technically had the same amount before sole credit landed on Koepp), but more that they did not have a proper focus on what the film actually is about in its heart. It's left me more mesmerized than I think it reasonably should, really.

[Tom 4,672]

It felt like they did not start from scratch.  In fact, to me, it felt like a Koepp movie with maybe 20% massaging over his usual weaknesses by the other three.  It boggles my mind that a tight script is so freaking elusive for a near $300 million dollar movie.  

[crumbs 14,319]

13 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

That being said, I would love to know the whole writing process behind DoD, especially now having watched it. Particularly with Koepp retaining a credit, which calls into question how much they did start from scratch once the other writers came in with Mangold. The manner in which a lot of ideas are brought up, but never really followed up on is something that warrants a whole study in my opinion.

 

Well the KOCS making-of documentary was pretty comprehensive about that film's development hell. Somehow I don't see this film getting the same treatment (especially with Disney in charge, who sanitize their PR material to within an inch of its life).

 

And from memory the KOCS doco glossed over (or totally ignored) the Darabont situation.

[HunterTech 994]

I think the reason I'm so curious is because the way Mangold talks about this particular movie is exactly how Zack Snyder has talked about his movies in the past. It might partially be PR speak, but the manner in which he mentions certain scenes and ideas are a lot more interesting and clearer than how it actually is depicted in the movie. Part of that might be that it throws so much on the screen that it never really ends up taking a central thing and running with it, which definitely was something Logan completely avoided. It is far from something like the theatrical cut of Batman v Superman, but it gets dangerously close to essentially feeling like things just happen because the script demands it to.

[Bellosh 3,419]

The two major things that create and resolve Indy's arc in DoD are both handled off screen.

 

Mutt's death: off screen

Helena telling Marion to get back with Indy: off screen.

 

 Doing that type of heavy shit feels hollow when you do it off screen. And even more so when KOTCS barely scratched the surface of Mutt and Indy appreciating one another.

 

Last Crusade works with his dad because the presumed horrible relationship growing up was resolved with plenty of screen time between both characters.  You can do anything off screen, as long you give us the reason why we should care ON SCREEN. 

DoD never does that.

 

also if you watch KOTCS, Marion is the last thing on Indys mind even when Mutt says 'Mary' 😂.

 

apparently Indy had a complete personality change after KOTCS 

 

They just defaulted to old = miserable, kill off characters to have an arc. Auto pilot type of shit.  

 

Movie is still decent though.

 

[Datameister 2,044]

49 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

also if you watch KOTCS, Marion is the last thing on Indys mind even when Mutt says 'Mary' 😂.

 

apparently Indy had a complete personality change after KOTCS 

 

I got the impression he didn't bump on it because she didn't start going by Mary till after they'd parted ways. He never knew her as a Mary—certainly not Mary Williams. And besides … "there were a lot of Marys, kid."

 

But the rest of your points stand, absolutely.

[Bellosh 3,419]

28 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

I got the impression he didn't bump on it because she didn't start going by Mary till after they'd parted ways. He never knew her as a Mary—certainly not Mary Williams. And besides … "there were a lot of Marys, kid."

 

But the rest of your points stand, absolutely.

 

Yeah you're absolutely right.

 

But to that line, there were a lot of Mary's (actually a funny line) Indy does not give a shit about being tied down. Even at that age lol

 

And KOTCS puts literally the shittiest bow on Indy and Marion's relationship. Happily ever after. Which is actually in line with how these movies should probably go.

 

DoD was just like "naaaah, it turned to shit and you're just gonna have to believe it."

 

Buuuuuut at the same time....wraps it up in another shitty bow!  And still says to you 'you just have to believe it'

 

Look im totally glad Indy and Marion are meant to be but I don't think that was ever in question to anyone.

 

It wasn't a surprise she was there.  If Marion isn't at the end of DoD they still have an ending to have Helena be in Indys life as a goddaughter so the old man doesn't die alone.  Which also works.

 

"Nah dude don't worry she'll be there for him, you won't see why she changed her mind other than the fact they're meant to be together." - scriptwriter

 

Go dark and depressing but resolve it with the typical "it's an Indy movie, lighten up" excuse.  It doesn't mesh well is all I'm saying.

 

[crocodile 8,019]

To be honest, I am not so sure I completely buy Indy as a family guy. You know, guy who goes around the world casually murdering people and seeking thrill but just longs for a settled life? It doesn't feel like it adds up.

 

Karol

[Romão 2,274]

So this a quick summary of Indy's and Marion's relationship:

 

• They get together when she was still underage. They break up some time after that.
• They get back together in Raiders. They break up some time after that.
• They get back together and marry in KOTCS. They break up some time after that.
• They get back together in DOD. Chances are, they'll break up some time after that.

Isn't this taking it s bit too far in a feel-good, adventure series? And they always break up off screen and get back together on screen 

[Edmilson 7,473]

They should adopt a puppy. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

5 hours ago, crocodile said:

To be honest, I am not so sure I completely buy Indy as a family guy. 

[Datameister 2,044]

5 hours ago, crocodile said:

To be honest, I am not so sure I completely buy Indy as a family guy. You know, guy who goes around the world casually murdering people and seeking thrill but just longs for a settled life? It doesn't feel like it adds up.

 

Karol

 

"Casually murdering people" is a rope bridge too far. Numerous rope bridges, really. The folks he kills are trying pretty hard to kill him first, typically.

[mrbellamy 6,293]

2 hours ago, Edmilson said:

They should adopt a puppy. 

 

And name it Indiana. Full circle. 

[TolkienSS 407]

1 hour ago, mrbellamy said:

 

And name it Indiana. Full circle. 

 

Literally a better ending.

[Andy 4,141]

On 12/7/2023 at 8:33 AM, Edmilson said:

They should adopt a puppy. 

 

On 12/7/2023 at 10:54 AM, mrbellamy said:

 

And name it Indiana. Full circle. 

 

On 12/7/2023 at 12:28 PM, TolkienSS said:

 

Literally a better ending.

Ahem. I’m just gonna leave this here. 

 

[TolkienSS 407]

5 hours ago, Andy said:

 

 

Ahem. I’m just gonna leave this here. 

 

 

A puppy isn't enough to save your terrible ending.

It reads like a 9-year old girl wrote it. 

All that's missing is Indy waking up in his bed going "... and YOU were there, and YOU were there, and YOU were there ..."

[Brónach 1,302]

i think this movie needs more gore and exploding heads, and should contain zero scenes in the USA or with old returning characters.

[JWilliamsFan1999 47]

 

 

For all you Indiana Jones fans, go follow Indiana Jones Nerd on YouTube, he has amazing videos and great content on Indy, I recommend him on YouTube.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

On 14/07/2023 at 11:11 AM, Brónach said:

i think this movie needs more gore and exploding heads, and should contain zero scenes in the USA or with old returning characters.

You are talking about a different movie.

 

What the movie showed to me, was, that Indiana Jones is a series, that you can't put easily into the hands of another director. You can say anything bad about KotCS what you want, but from the very beginning this looked and felt like an Indiana Jones movie. I felt at home from the very beginning. But DoD is obviously a James Mangold movie. I there wouldn't have been Williams' music, it probably wouldn't have worked as an Indy movie at all.

The movie really wasn't Bad at all. I liked Phoebe Waller-Bridge's character even though next time when she is going to play a part in an action movie she should take some exercises to appear a little bit more athletic to be more believable. And this mixture of I just care for money and take the easy way but on the other hand I have a degree in archeology that you do get thown after did Not always make sense to me.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

One more observation. Not only some of Williams' music in the movie reminded me of Tin Tin. As well Ford's animated face and the way the whole action sequence at the beginning reminded me of Tin Tin. It looked like an animated sequence anyway.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I think helena saying she has a degree in archaeology and doing a phD was fake, to make indy show her the dial. 
 

probably all she knows was learnt seeing her father or taught by him when she was young

[GerateWohl 4,373]

52 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I think helena saying she has a degree in archaeology and doing a phD was fake, to make indy show her the dial. 
 

probably all she knows was learnt seeing her father or taught by him when she was young

That's what I thought as well, but in many movie reviews she was described as studied archeologist, which made little sense to me in the actual context.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

On 14/07/2023 at 11:11 AM, Brónach said:

I think this movie needs more gore and exploding heads

 

Like a cross between An Inconvenient Truth and Bad Taste?

[Bellosh 3,419]

They should have talked about how Mutt grew up during the second red scare and couldn't wait to go fight communism. Totally believing the domino theory.

 

He would have hated anything having to do with communism.

 

DoD did get the dates right though. 1969 was the second deadliest year in Vietnam for U.S. troops.

[Andy 4,141]

Right. I was trying in my head to reconcile Mutt the non conformist 50s rebel putting on a uniform.  I love your anti-communist angle, because if he simply wanted to piss of his father he would likely turn to drugs and counterculture instead of enlisting. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Also he said his father was "war hero, not some teacher" so he seems pretty pro war

[Brónach 1,302]

mutt from the extremely lean pieces of characterization one gets may make sense.

 

Indiana as a sad old passive anticommunist feels strange, although it's hard to explain why. what happens if i drop indy in the war in spain, like other known characters real and imagined from the time?

[TolkienSS 407]

3 hours ago, Brónach said:

mutt from the extremely lean pieces of characterization one gets may make sense.

 

Indiana as a sad old passive anticommunist feels strange, although it's hard to explain why. what happens if i drop indy in the war in spain, like other known characters real and imagined from the time?

 

You find it hard to explain why Indy would be anticommunist in the 60s? 😂😂😂

[Brónach 1,302]

not hard, lengthy. he wasn't raised in the sixties and it was less common with his background. it could go either way. he's prime witchhunt material though.

 

and so was part of hollywood. and in that case they weren't chasing ghosts. their intelligence services couldn't be that dumb.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Communists kidnapped marion and oxley… i think mutt has enough to dislike them.

 

as for indy…may he could have some russian friends or allies during wwii. That could go downhill after the war… just like it happened between the countries themselves.

 

i can see young indy following some revolutions (he did after all didnt he?) but insee grown up indy seeing everything for what it really is…

[crumbs 14,319]

Another missed opportunity the film never explored was after the flashback where Basil pleaded with Indy to destroy the Dial, Indy explicitly promises he will. He then leaves with the Dial and ... does nothing except hide it. This betrayal of their friendship seems like a significant character moment that is never addressed or explored, not even with Helena (you'd think this might tie into their antagonism towards each other).

 

So why didn't he destroy it? Did he secretly want to unlock its power? It would've made for a stronger plot if Indy spent years studying the Dial in secret. Perhaps Mutt's death drove him mad and he was looking for a way to change the past, falling victim to the Dial's corruption much like Basil.

 

Yeah, it's reminiscent of the One Ring, but at least Indy wouldn't have been as passive in the narrative if he had a clearer motivation for why he was seeking the McGuffin.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I had a lot of fun watching it, like when I saw KOTCS in the cinemas (it was my first Indy movie) but I think the main problem is that it's like three or four movies crammed in one -and they're all fighting each other for the spotlight.

 

As many have said, the prologue should have been shorter: For example, I don't know what the point was of Indy and that long sequence of him hanging by the neck -that should have been cut altogether. Start at the train and that's it -it should be like the opening from Last Crusade, 10 minutes tops and then get back to present day.

 

Then there's the 60's part of the movie with all the space stuff, which is just kinda... there. The parade sequence is fun but they don't do much with it either.

 

I found myself really enjoying the part at the caves, particularly when they discover Archimedes' tomb. The discovery of the strange drawings on the tomb and the clock felt chilling.

 

And then when they get to ancient Greece. It was so stupid and so clever at the same time. I felt like that should have been the main focus of the movie: Indy trying to get back to the present and avoiding doing any major changes to history -with Archimedes help, perhaps; Voller changing his mind and instead of killing Hitler, deciding to conquer Greece! And Indy and Helena have to stop him.

 

After that, when they get the chance to return, Indy wants to stay as there's nothing for him to go back to; until he realizes by his own means that he must get back to his real life.

 

---On a side note: Didn't Indy know how speak German? I seem to recall he did. That felt weird.

 

Overall, like I said, I had a lot of fun -and the potential was there, all the right elements seem to be right there... But somehow the film didn't quite know what to do with them.

[crumbs 14,319]

40 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

After that, when they get the chance to return, Indy wants to stay as there's nothing for him to go back to; until he realizes by his own means that he must get back to his real life.

 

This is the film's most egregious flaw, IMO. Indy is the protagonist and he needed to choose his destiny.

 

Having another character knock him out and make the decision for him robs him of a satisfying arc, having agency in the narrative, and it doesn't feel earned when his strained relationship with said character is never repaired in the second or third acts. Motivations are unclear or left for audiences to fill gaps.

 

It's confounding how many leaps of character logic are present in the final cut and makes me wonder if the film was heavily trimmed down from earlier cuts.

[Brónach 1,302]

they should have let him live in antiquity

[Bellosh 3,419]

4 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

i can see young indy following some revolutions (he did after all didnt he?) but insee grown up indy seeing everything for what it really is…

 

actually for what it's worth, in the young indy episode where he befriends the bolsheviks to spy on them, the one girl who's interested in him, he turns down lol.  he literally has a different girlfriend almost every episode. guess Lucas didn't want Indy to ever date a commie. 

[Brónach 1,302]

12 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

the one girl who's interested in him, he turns down lol.

 

coward!

[Bellosh 3,419]

my man is a capitalist.  can't blame him 

[Brónach 1,302]

would Indy put Trumbo in jail?

[Bellosh 3,419]

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

This is the film's most egregious flaw, IMO. Indy is the protagonist and he needed to choose his destiny.

 

Having another character knock him out and make the decision for him robs him of a satisfying arc, having agency in the narrative, and it doesn't feel earned when his strained relationship with said character is never repaired in the second or third acts. Motivations are unclear or left for audiences to fill gaps.

 

It's confounding how many leaps of character logic are present in the final cut and makes me wonder if the film was heavily trimmed down from earlier cuts.

 

Yeah I thought about this some more.  And I don't hate or love the punch...

 

But the punch exists because of Marion's 'surprise' appearance.

 

If they just both leave ancient Greece all willy nilly, the surprise of her there isn't as strong I don't think.  Because the punch/cut to NYC is pretty much Helena saving him and then eventually his marriage.

 

Something I wondered the plot should have been focused more on was Indy and Helena both reluctantly going on this adventure for her father. with one another kinda not enjoying each other's company but eventually becoming close with one another as they begin to develop a friendship and respect each other.  Just basically already what DoD was but in a much stronger way. Like maybe make them really dislike each other in the beginning or something.

 

Helena going after Indy when he's captured is basically her character finally being there for Indy.  Remember how she bailed on him earlier in the movie?

 

Anyways...you still could have killed off Mutt, maybe Marion is removed from it entirely (divorced or dead).  And at the end we see an Indy who realizes he has someone new in his life. Who's there to be with him both as a "family member" and sidekick for future adventures. Is that ending strong enough? No clue. Always easy to backseat.

 

Marion was again just "fan service" in this film.

 

I dunno just some things I've been thinking about in how they could have left Greece without the punch.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

I haven't been following this discussion.

 

What's the general board consensus on the film, who hates it, who loves it, etc?

[Andy 4,141]

We love it.  And so do you. 

[HunterTech 994]

A lot more positive than I honestly expected. There's of course those who didn't care for it, but evidently it must've done something right if even some of the folks who are burnt out on modern Hollywood didn't mind it.

 

I personally remain perplexed on the film. It's so hard to judge something that throws in so many compelling ideas that really didn't get much follow up on. I sure as hell don't know how to compare it with KotCS.