Are There Any Film Composers Working Who Can’t Read/Write Music?

[Mr. Gitz 85]

The question may sound ridiculous but when you sit and think about it, yeah okay, it still sounds ridiculous.

 

But hear me out. Today with all the various ways one can make music electronically, are there any composers working who can’t actually read/write the notes? 

 

For example, Trent Reznor, does he compose or just mess around until he has something?

 

The Guys who did the score for Tron Legacy. Same thing. Did they compose notes or just press some buttons until it sounded right?

 

I can’t read/write music but I often think, damn, if there was a program that could turn my humming into notes? I’m the Mozart of humming. I came up with an awesome Batman theme once in the shower. Then I lost it. All because I can’t write music. You all have lost out on some amazing music due to my music illiteracy. 
 

I wonder if that’s the future of film music. One simply hums a tune and A/I does the rest. I say “make my humming sound like John Williams” and then the A.I. obeys & does just that. Then it launches all the worlds nuclear weapons in shame. 

[Thor 7,508]

I don't think there are many composers who can't read any music at all, even if they're self-taught and learned it early on in their careers.

 

That being said, in this day and age, it isn't really necessary to be able to read music fluently. Vangelis didn't read music, as far as I remember, but still composed some of the greatest scores of all time. The tools by which to compose don't really matter; it's the end result that matters. The most important thing for a composer is to have dramatic flair.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I remember reading somewhere that Hans Zimmer couldn't read music... But that probably was just his haters. I mean, one of his cues is named "Too Many Notes, Not Enough Rests", so he must know what a rest is and why there's too few of them, right? Right?

[GerateWohl 4,370]

This questions answer has many levels.

 

With the basic knowlege, that there are 12 notes in an octave and how they are named and a notation software you can write notes.

But who can write notes just with paper and pencil and piano?

 

And I guess, each of the menitioned composers can read notes. But who of them can actually play pieces by directly reading from the sheet?

And who can conduct an orchestra?

 

And knowing notes and reading notes is one thing. Knowing all the additional signatures for expression, how to play, how to phrase etc. is much much more.

 

So, I guess, there are many different levels of skills out there with people who create film music.

 

[Brónach 1,302]

reading music is easy. sight reading difficult things or knowing what that harmony is supposed to sound like is seems harder to me.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,537]

26 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I remember reading somewhere that Hans Zimmer couldn't read music... But that probably was just his haters. I mean, one of his cues is named "Too Many Notes, Not Enough Rests", so he must know what a rest is and why there's too few of them, right? Right?

 

It's not his haters. Zimmer cannot read music.

Vangelis couldn't read music, either.

[Edmilson 7,466]

13 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It's not his haters. Zimmer cannot read music.

 

Really? Do you have a source for that? 

 

So if I show him something like this...

 

 

... and ask him to play in a piano or anything, he'll be like "duuuuhhh..."?

 

Is this why he has so many assistants? People who translate his synth demos into actual sheet music for the orchestra to perform?

[Richard Penna 3,694]

2 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said:

I can’t read/write music but I often think, damn, if there was a program that could turn my humming into notes? I’m the Mozart of humming. I came up with an awesome Batman theme once in the shower. Then I lost it. All because I can’t write music. You all have lost out on some amazing music due to my music illiteracy.

 

I've had any moments like that when a theme or melody comes into my head for a few minutes, then it's gone. I have a very basic knowledge of musical staves from school, but nothing more than knowing how notes are put on or between the lines, so if you showed me the piano sheet of a classic theme, I'd be able to mostly follow it. But come to any other aspects like temp, pitch, etc, not a clue.

[Mr. Gitz 85]

2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

It's not his haters. Zimmer cannot read music.

Vangelis couldn't read music, either.

That can’t be true 

[Thor 7,508]

For Vangelis, it is. For many composers working primarily in an electronic idiom, it isn't that important.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

It's not his haters. Zimmer cannot read music.

Vangelis couldn't read music, either.

 

Zimmer can't write music either.

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,537]

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Really? Do you have a source for that? 

There are plenty of sources, on the internet. Really; it's not the Zimmer-haters saying this. He can't read music.

Neither can Paul McCartney, nor Eric Clapton.

[Ollie 1,059]

It’s nice to know I have something in common with them.

[Mr. Who 919]

9 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

There are plenty of sources, on the internet. Really; it's not the Zimmer-haters saying this. He can't read music.

Neither can Paul McCartney, nor Eric Clapton.

It’s kind of a part of his self taught image, but it’s known that he reads music. He writes in Cubase but he obviously knows how to read music. A collaborator of his was once asked about it in an interview but can’t remember who it was but he set the record straight.
 

I’ve also seen multiple images of him reading and making notes with a pencil on the sheet music at recording sessions and rehearsals for the live shows.

 

Like Elfman (who was known as a whistler very early in his career if I’m not mistaken), I’m sure that when he started out he probably wasn’t very good at reading notation but that was in the 80s.

[LSH 969]

Understanding musical theory is certainly not a pre-requisite for writing music and I’m sure there are several gradations of skill in the industry.

 

Somebody with an inherent and intuitive flair for music will often know principles of music theory without even realising it.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I'd rather hear music from someone who doesn't really know what they're doing, theory-wise, but makes interesting and emotional music using whatever intuition they have, than someone who knows everything there is about theory (and makes academics excitedly study it) but writes music that's actually quite boring to listen to.

 

And as Zimmer has been mentioned, I've got Gladiator on now and am reminded why it's one of my top film scores of all time. I couldn't care less if the man can't read music, or not as well as fellow composers.

 

Actually, a quote comes to mind from Thomas Newman, possibly from one of those round table things, where he comments that of all the soloists he works with to produce his unusual sounds, if someone isn't very musically literate but is able to produce the sounds he wants, he's (exact words) 'grateful to have you'.

[Edmilson 7,466]

31 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

someone who knows everything there is about theory (and makes academics excitedly study it) but writes music that's actually quite boring to listen to.

That would be Brian Tyler, who's got a bachelor and a masters degree in music and yet his music is okay at best.

[LSH 969]

As has been said - in film music at least - you have to be an adept dramatist before you're a prodigy of musical 'discipline'.

[Schilkeman 964]

When I listen to Zimmer, I think, well, he knows what he's doing, he just doesn't know much. When I listen to Elfman, I legit don't know if he knows what he's doing. I think their lack of training is obvious, and limits their potential. But then, we have someone like Desplat who is trained, and clearly knows what he's doing, but is so boring I've fallen asleep trying to listen to his scores. I think Jerry and James and Johnny stick around because they had extensive education, and the spark of the Muse. I think you need both to be great. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

3 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

When I listen to Zimmer, I think, well, he knows what he's doing, he just doesn't know much. When I listen to Elfman, I legit don't know if he knows what he's doing. I think their lack of training is obvious, and limits their potential. But then, we have someone like Desplat who is trained, and clearly knows what he's doing, but is so boring I've fallen asleep trying to listen to his scores. I think Jerry and James and Johnny stick around because they had extensive training, and the spark of the Muse. I think you need both to be great. 

A hundred times this.

 

11 hours ago, LSH said:

Understanding musical theory is certainly not a pre-requisite for writing music and I’m sure there are several gradations of skill in the industry.

 

Somebody with an inherent and intuitive flair for music will often know principles of music theory without even realising it.

Like in other diciplines music isn't based on music theory (unless you look at something like twelve-tone music). People made music long before music theory existed. Music theory is just a construct to describe music and to define a common language for it. 

[Score 770]

I think it would be better to define what it means to "read music". I can see at least three possible definitions, corresponding to different levels of musical training (and I'm just thinking about "reading", not "writing" or "playing from a score").

 

1) Being able to identify the name of a note while reading a single staff in G clef. This is a basic ability that in some countries is taught in ordinary schools, and I will never believe that any serious professional musician is unable to do this, even if they say so themselves.

 

2) Being able to read written music on a single staff (say, a melody) and simultaneously imagining how the melody sounds, at least in terms of relative heights of the notes; possibly, being able to sing a previously unknown melody while reading it for the first time. This is a slightly more advanced ability, which requires a few years of musical training, and dedicated practice. Where I live, in the context of a formal musical education path, you are typically required to display such ability within the second year, and you must give an exam where said ability is tested (along with others) at the end of the third year. I can well imagine that the Beatles might not be able to do this, but I find it difficult to believe that people like Zimmer, Elfman etc. - who, after all, often deal with written music and musicians who play their compositions - cannot do it.

 

3) Being able to read a full multi-instrumental score (many staves aligned vertically, corresponding to different instruments playing simultaneously) of moderate complexity and simultaneously imagine how it sounds, at least in relative terms. This requires several years of training and practice specifically oriented to achieve this goal; it is the bread and butter of orchestra conductors, of those composers who write everything by themselves, and of orchestrators. So, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Ennio Morricone, Bernard Herrmann etc. etc. etc. are/were able to do it; people like Zimmer and Vangelis most likely not.   

 

 

 

9 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Like in other diciplines music isn't based on music theory (unless you look at something like twelve-tone music). People made music long before music theory existed. Music theory is just a construct to describe music and to define a common language for it. 

 

I have to disagree with this. Most of the music that most of us love would not exist without music theory; including that of John Williams. Of course, music theory evolved in time, and today's theory is different, say, from that of Mozart's times.  

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, Score said:

I have to disagree with this. Most of the music that most of us love would not exist without music theory; including that of John Williams. Of course, music theory evolved in time, and today's theory is different, say, from that of Mozart's times.

To be honest, I don't see a contradiction two what I wrote. But your comment is a good addition. 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

23 hours ago, Edmilson said:

That would be Brian Tyler, who's got a bachelor and a masters degree in music and yet his music is okay at best.

 

I like a handful of his scores the Yellowstone and 1883 shows, some of Terra Nova, and The Mummy and bits of Fast Five. That's about it. He does have a very, very generic sound and I definitely don't think he's talented at complex, memorable themes.

[Edmilson 7,466]

The Mummy was okay, even though the album was extremely long. This year's Super Mario Bros was funny. Overall I think his most entertaining action score is 2014 TMNT. 

 

Never connected to his F&F scores though despite a handful of decent cues.

[JTN 2,030]

On 13/12/2023 at 6:07 PM, Brónach said:

reading music is easy. sight reading difficult things or knowing what that harmony is supposed to sound like is seems harder to me.

To me counterpoint is the most difficult thing to learn. It probably isn't, but I'm self-taught and haven't had a teacher who could teach it to me properly, because I'm sure it can't be that hard once you get the hang of it. 

The other thing I have yet to learn is how to decide what key you want a piece of music to be in and how to determine the tempo. These are things any 6-year-old in music school knows btw.

 

18 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

When I listen to Zimmer, I think, well, he knows what he's doing, he just doesn't know much. When I listen to Elfman, I legit don't know if he knows what he's doing. I think their lack of training is obvious, and limits their potential. But then, we have someone like Desplat who is trained, and clearly knows what he's doing, but is so boring I've fallen asleep trying to listen to his scores. I think Jerry and James and Johnny stick around because they had extensive education, and the spark of the Muse. I think you need both to be great. 

Desplat has some good scores, but I agree that he has a certain style that can become boring after a while. But many film composers copy themselves that way, like Horner, Morricone, even Goldsmith and Williams. 

Elfman was self-taught, in the beginning of his career he didn't know how to write down music or how to express what he wanted to hear, and his orchestrators, mostly Steve Bartek, and Shirley Walker made his tunes, melodies and ideas into complex scores like Batman. He didn't have a formal musical training, but his raw talent shone through his lack of knowledge and gradually he learnt what he was lacking in composition, and all the things he didn't know wouldn't hold him back from composing music. Same with Zimmer, only his music is far less complex and imaginative. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

On 13/12/2023 at 10:49 AM, Edmilson said:

I remember reading somewhere that Hans Zimmer couldn't read music... But that probably was just his haters. I mean, one of his cues is named "Too Many Notes, Not Enough Rests", so he must know what a rest is and why there's too few of them, right? Right?

 

Maybe he meant rests for himself. Gotta go to the bathroom sometime 

[JTN 2,030]

On 14/12/2023 at 11:56 PM, Richard Penna said:

I'd rather hear music from someone who doesn't really know what they're doing, theory-wise, but makes interesting and emotional music using whatever intuition they have, than someone who knows everything there is about theory (and makes academics excitedly study it) but writes music that's actually quite boring to listen to.

True. It's basically knowledge vs. talent. Or knowing the craft vs. being a genius. 

There are many people who can learn to draw or paint or read and write music, the technical aspects of it, but will never in their life be able to compose one hummable melody, simply because they aren't truly talented. One can learn the craft but that alone won't make them great composers without that certain je ne sais quoi. 

Look how many film composers are out there, but how many have written a theme that people remember and hum? 

That is why JW is the greatest film composer of all time. He has written more memorable themes than almost all of the other film composers combined. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Close Encounters, E. T., Jurassic Park, Home Alone, Schindler's List, and the list goes on and on. 

If it were only about knowing musical theory, every composer would be Williams. But the real talent is when you put together a certain amount of notes in a way that will become instantly recognizable as if they were always there. That's probably the hardest part for a composer, and it certainly is for Williams as he has said it many times. Making something very hard seem easy is real talent.

 

 

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Overall I think his most entertaining action score is 2014 TMNT. 

 

I've read somewhere that it's basically a copy paste of his Thor: The Dark World score. Don't know if it's true, I'm not familiar with either score.

I remember enjoying his Eagle Eye score, though. The guy loves drums. 

[Edmilson 7,466]

35 minutes ago, JTW said:

've read somewhere that it's basically a copy paste of his Thor: The Dark World score. Don't know if it's true, I'm not familiar with either scor

These two scores are nothing alike. Thor TDW is more noble and epic while TMNT is more balls to the wall and explosive fun. Both contain a lot of Tyler-isms though.

 

If you feel inclined, just try these two cues below:

 

You can skip this one to 2:50, it's when it gets really entertaining:

 

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Fyi

Elfman knows/knew how to write music.He showed Lukas Kendall his PERSONAL,  handwritten score for BATMAN.

 

In classical music, a "self- taught" composer simply means one didn't attend a music college/conservatory; not that they didn't take instruction...

 

 

[Stark 316]

On 14/12/2023 at 5:29 PM, Edmilson said:

That would be Brian Tyler, who's got a bachelor and a masters degree in music and yet his music is okay at best.

He’s good when he tries! He just rarely tries.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

On 13/12/2023 at 5:18 PM, Mr. Gitz said:

I came up with an awesome Batman theme once in the shower. Then I lost it.

 

You could have recorded your ideas. 

[Mephariel 451]

For film composition, knowing music theory is nowhere near as important as knowing how to tell a story with music. When people say JW is the greatest of all time and talks about his melodies is because he is a great storyteller. When you listen to JW, you can hear the story being told even without the images. When people said Gladiator is great, it is because Zimmer understands drama. His music isn't complex, but it hits you when it counts. I honestly don't know how much music Randy Edelman knows, but in the 90s, he was one of my favorite composers because his peak melodic writing was unparallel. He just has the it factor when writing melodies. Dragonheart remains of the most memorable scores in my collection. Another example is Daft Punk. I doubt he knows that much music theory, and TRON wasn't even an orchestral score, but it created a soundscape perfect for the story. 

3 hours ago, Stark said:

He’s good when he tries! He just rarely tries.

 

I don't even think it has anything to do with him trying. Tyler's problem is that no amount of music theory or education can teach him to be emotional, or to let his emotions go. His music is cold, calculating, and just uninviting most of the time. He compose scores as if his college professor is standing 2 inches next to him monitoring his every move. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

5 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

Do does Daft Punk. I doubt he knows that much music theory, and TRON wasn't even an orchestral score, but it created a soundscape perfect for the story. 

 

Daft Punk consisted of two guys, and they worked with Joseph Trapanese who did the orchestral arrangements. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

These two scores are nothing alike. Thor TDW is more noble and epic while TMNT is more balls to the wall and explosive fun. Both contain a lot of Tyler-isms though.

 

If you feel inclined, just try these two cues below:

 

You can skip this one to 2:50, it's when it gets really entertaining:

 

 

 

You don’t need a degree in music theory to write any of the music heard in these two clips. 

By the way, two more ingrediences are part of Williams' compositional brillance. He is a very good performer and improvisor at the piano. That gives him the abbility to instantly try out and vary complex ideas. So, he is able to develop things further where technically less skilled performers already stop developing their music. Secondly his experience and knowlege of jazz and classical music. 

[Thor 7,508]

10 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Daft Punk consisted of two guys, and they worked with Joseph Trapanese who did the orchestral arrangements. 

 

Also, Bangalter has some classical training (don't know about Homem-Christo). Wiki:

 

Quote

He began playing the piano at the age of 6,[6] taking lessons from a music staff member of the Paris Opera.[7]

 

His concert work MYTHOLOGIES from last year is well worth checking out.

[JTN 2,030]

I don’t think even JW could write a more badass Batman theme than Danny Elfman’s. 
Shirley Walker’s to MotP and Goldenthal’s to BF come close, though.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

10 hours ago, JTW said:

That is why JW is the greatest film composer of all time. He has written more memorable themes than almost all of the other film composers combined. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Close Encounters, E. T., Jurassic Park, Home Alone, Schindler's List, and the list goes on and on. 

 

He may have been amongst the best during his peak period of the 80s to the 00s, but in terms of my criteria of writing interesting music I think that's mixed during the last couple of decades. There are many composers who have produced scores that I find more interesting, in the latter period, regardless of their musical acumen.

[karelm 2,914]

Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Mark Zuckerbeg are self-made billionaires who never got their college degrees.  Some successful composers don't read music.  They hire teams of musicians to make up for what they don't know but can be very good at what they do.  Some that are very good at reading and writing music are John Powell, James Horner, Goldsmith, Goldenthal, james newton howard, etc.  They have large teams too but usually more in the production side.  Basically, hiring whatever your weakness is to maintain high standard, polished, consistent output.

 

On 13/12/2023 at 9:12 AM, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

It's not his haters. Zimmer cannot read music.

Vangelis couldn't read music, either.

 

Zimmer brags about not reading music.  He says it in his masterclass.  He dropped out of piano lessons two weeks in too, being way too bored with playing scales rather than tunes.  The Beatles couldn't read music either.  George Harrison talked about not reading it on The Dick Clark show where he said he doesn't need to.  He writes the chord symbols and lyrics and that was all he needed.  They don't see it as a handicap.  

[Edmilson 7,466]

5 minutes ago, karelm said:

Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Walt Disney, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Mark Zuckerbeg are self-made billionaires who never got their college degrees.  Some successful composers don't read music.  They hire teams of musicians to make up for what they don't know but can be very good at what they do.  

 

Zimmer brags about not reading music.  He says it in his masterclass.  He dropped out of piano lessons two weeks in too, being way too bored with playing scales rather than tunes.  The Beatles couldn't read music either.  George Harrison talked about not reading it on The Dick Clark show where he said he doesn't need to.  He writes the chord symbols and lyrics and that was all he needed.  They don't see it as a handicap.  

The lesson here is: "don't worry, kids! You don't need to go to school! Why spend all those boring hours learning about mitochondrias, logarithms and sexual escapades of Henry VIII, then go home and, instead of having fun, just studying even more for the hellish tests you'll face on the other day? Why go to expensive colleges filled with even more boring tests, presentations, academic essays, etc., which, given the current economic situation, won't even guarantee a nice, steady job? All you need is to be a self made billionaire with a knack for business (and for fucking the competition)!

[1977 1,743]

This thread depresses me. I studied musical theory and piano for eight years at school and yet couldn't sight-read to save my life. I had to learn pieces through constant repetition. Music is one of the great joys of my life and yet I can't compose or play a thing.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,537]

@Edmilson, you shouldn't have crossed out the last five words of your last post, as it's true.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

20 hours ago, Edmilson said:

mitochondrias

 

Midichlorians, you mean?

[Richard Penna 3,694]

16 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

This thread depresses me. I studied musical theory and piano for eight years at school and yet couldn't sight-read to save my life. I had to learn pieces through constant repetition. Music is one of the great joys of my life and yet I can't compose or play a thing.

 

This is sad to read because I think there are some who believe that because you have trouble reading music, anything you would produce is going to be inferior to those who can because you can't do it 'properly'. And I'm passionately against that view - as I touched upon previously if someone has some great melodies, ideas for textures, action sequences, etc, but doesn't have a clue what that translates to in musical terms.... I couldn't give less of a shit if they are still able to somehow get their thoughts down. Talents come in so many forms.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

This thread depresses me. I studied musical theory and piano for eight years at school and yet couldn't sight-read to save my life. I had to learn pieces through constant repetition. Music is one of the great joys of my life and yet I can't compose or play a thing.

 

Don't be so hard to yourself. Reading music and sight-reading are two different leagues. Especially, if you're playing an instrument that requires sorting out fingering, there's a large gap between reading and sight-reading. You can still be a good instrumentalists without being able to sight-read. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

This thread depresses me. I studied musical theory and piano for eight years at school and yet couldn't sight-read to save my life. I had to learn pieces through constant repetition. Music is one of the great joys of my life and yet I can't compose or play a thing.

There is a good way out of this. At least for some time you should try to go more into the direction of improvisation. For an easy start you could use some blues patterns. If the notes refuse to be read by you, ignore them and do your own thing. Just a suggestion. 

 

[Brónach 1,302]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Don't be so hard to yourself. Reading music and sight-reading are two different leagues. Especially, if you're playing an instrument that requires sorting out fingering, there's a large gap between reading and sight-reading. You can still be a good instrumentalists without being able to sight-read. 

 

oh yeah good sight reading on some instruments seems like hell

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

10 minutes ago, Brónach said:

 

oh yeah good sight reading on some instruments seems like hell

 

Especially for kazoo.

[JTN 2,030]

4 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

This thread depresses me. I studied musical theory and piano for eight years at school and yet couldn't sight-read to save my life. I had to learn pieces through constant repetition. Music is one of the great joys of my life and yet I can't compose or play a thing.

Hey, what’s the worst thing that could happen? You won’t be a session musician on JW scores. ;-)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,537]

Recently, Mozart's grave was dug up. When the coffin was opened, people found Mozart erasing all his manuscripts. They asked him what he was doing, and he said: "I'm decomposing" 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

2 minutes ago, JTW said:

Hey, what’s the worst thing that could happen? You won’t be a session musician on JW scores. ;-)

 

He'll have to settle for Zimmer, who can't sight-read either.