Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (James Mangold, June 30 2023)

[oierem 152]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

What do you mean? Spielberg is still on board. 

 

What does that mean, exactly? Being a "producer" or "executive producer" means anything nowadays. And without knowing how much direct imput he's had, my bet is closer to none.

 

I'm sure he's been consulted, and that he's read the script, seen conceptual art, visited the set and watched a rough cut. And I'm sure he offered some advice. But that's pretty much it. He isn't in charge of anything, and is basically letting the new director do his thing (again, this is speculation on my part).

 

Spielberg is a director. He doesn't create stories. He isn't a showrunner/producer (the way Lucas used to work). His imput comes when he takes on a project as a director. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

 

Look, I don't take what Kurtz says as gospel truth. He could well be a liar. It's easy to dismiss everything he says as the disgruntled ramblings of a bitter old man. Personally, I don't think it's only that, but perhaps more importantly there's only one person in this whole saga that I know is a habitual liar and that person isn't Gary Kurtz. It's George Lucas.

 

I don't think someone's statements can be dismissed or not based on whether you think he is a "liar". "Lies" and "truths" are not absolute categories, historical research is based on sources and on facts.

In this case, the timeline doesn't check out: Kurtz wasn't working with Lucas by the time Raiders was in production.

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

 

21 minutes ago, oierem said:

Spielberg is a director. He doesn't create stories. He isn't a showrunner/producer (the way Lucas used to work). His imput comes when he takes on a project as a director. 

 

Spielberg has produced a lot of stuff.

[Edmilson 7,472]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

how come they didn't get to do episode I after VI then?

I imagined how people felt back in the early 80s when they discovered that the so called second movie in the Star Wars franchise was actually the fifth one. Since there was no internet at the time to clarify what Lucas meant, I imagine a lot of people thought there were four SW movies between ANH and TESB that they couldn't remember 

 

12 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Spielberg has produced a lot of stuff.

Yeah, and some (most?) of it is shite. I still don't know how Spielberg put his name in those atrocious Transformers movies.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

3 hours ago, oierem said:

 

Kurtz wasn't even around Lucas at that time, he had been replaced by Kazanjian long before any early ROTJ discussions happened. 

Those claims were made years later, and are clouded by his subjective opinion and bitter memories. 

 

1 hour ago, oierem said:

 

In this case, the timeline doesn't check out: Kurtz wasn't working with Lucas by the time Raiders was in production.

 

Well, all opinions are subjective. That's why they're opinions.

 

And none of this necessarily contradicts anything Kurtz says. His memory may be a little hazy on the timing, but frankly we don't know how often he and Lucas talked circa 1981, or about what. Kurtz was there, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

11 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Well, all opinions are subjective. That's why they're opinions.

 

That's your opinion, man.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

 

4 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Well, all opinions are subjective. That's why they're opinions.

4 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's your opinion, man.

 

 

[Tallguy 3,401]

43 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I imagined how people felt back in the early 80s when they discovered that the so called second movie in the Star Wars franchise was actually the fifth one. Since there was no internet at the time to clarify what Lucas meant, I imagine a lot of people thought there were four SW movies between ANH and TESB that they couldn't remember 

 

There was Time magazine and there were newspapers. If you cared even a little bit you knew even before the film started that it was going to say Episode V. And you had had it explained what that meant.

 

Kind of in the same vein, when Jedi came out it was made very clear that this was going to be it. At least for a good long while. Lucas was going to do other things. His divorce wasn't quite as public and certainly wasn't part of the publicity for Jedi, so that took a little longer to become part of the narrative.

[Brando 1,864]

2 hours ago, oierem said:

I'm sure he's been consulted, and that he's read the script, seen conceptual art, visited the set and watched a rough cut. And I'm sure he offered some advice

I can't find it but about a year ago I think, he said he got to watch the opening and said it was cool. He said his advice to Mangold was to keep the movie running like a trailer.

[mstrox 6,651]

23 minutes ago, Brando said:

I can't find it but about a year ago I think, he said he got to watch the opening and said it was cool. He said his advice to Mangold was to keep the movie running like a trailer.

That advice came from Spielberg -

https://www.slashfilm.com/1129942/steven-spielberg-had-specific-advice-for-indiana-jones-5-director-james-mangold/
 

Mangold has mentioned that he’s had Lucas’s input, but what that is has never been clarified I don’t think.

[Brando 1,864]

12 minutes ago, mstrox said:

That advice came from Spielberg -

https://www.slashfilm.com/1129942/steven-spielberg-had-specific-advice-for-indiana-jones-5-director-james-mangold/
 

Mangold has mentioned that he’s had Lucas’s input, but what that is has never been clarified I don’t think.

Theres that article. Couldn't find the other one though for my first point

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

Quote

That advice came from Spielberg -

 

"Steven said to me, It's a movie that's a trailer from beginning to end — always be moving.'"

 

Soooooo….like a rollercoaster?

 

Sounds about right.

[Chen G. 3,950]

It'd be hard to make the case that Indiana Jones is not a roller-coaster-type movie.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

Raiders feels to me like something of a transition between an old style Hollywood action movie and a modern, non-stop thrills action blockbuster. 

 

Temple of Doom is definitely the rollercoaster film, however. Occasionally quite literally. The film is driven by sheer inertia, and obviously has a more pure kinetic drive than Raiders.
 

Last Crusade falls somewhere in between, though probably closer to Raiders. Let's call it Raiders with a more modern sensibility. 

 

I rewatched Last Crusade recently. While not quite the breath of fresh air, instant classic that Raiders was (how could it be?) nor quite as courageous a departure as Temple of Doom, I decided it has the best final act of the three. It’s a (mostly) excellent film throughout, but everything from the moment they enter Petra is just brilliant. The father/son stuff between Sean & Harrison is phenomenal. So perfectly realised it's just amazing Lucas and Spielberg stumbled on it. IMO it ranks fairly close to Raiders in being the second best of the trilogy. 

[Tom 4,670]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Raiders feels to me like something of a transition between an old style Hollywood action movie and a modern, non-stop thrills action blockbuster. 

 

Temple of Doom is definitely the rollercoaster film, however. Occasionally quite literally. Last Crusade falls somewhere in between, though probably closer to Raiders. Let's call it Raiders with a more modern sensibility. 

 

I rewatched Last Crusade recently. While not the breath of fresh air, instant classic that Raiders was (how could it be?) nor quite as courageous a departure as Temple of Doom, I realised it has the best final act of the three. Everything from the moment they enter Petra is just brilliant. The father/son stuff between Sean & Harrison is phenomenal. So perfectly realised it's just amazing Lucas and Spielberg stumbled on it. IMO it ranks fairly close to Raiders in being the second best of the trilogy. 

Lucas's idea was Indiana Jones in a haunted house, which sounds both stupid and somewhat redundant with a scary temple.  

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

11 hours ago, Tom said:

Lucas's idea was Indiana Jones in a haunted house, which sounds both stupid and somewhat redundant with a scary temple.  

But a real missed opportunity for a tie-in to the Magic Kingdom’s Haunted Mansion.

[Edmilson 7,472]

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Everything from the moment they enter Petra is just brilliant. The father/son stuff between Sean & Harrison is phenomenal. So perfectly realised it's just amazing Lucas and Spielberg stumbled on it.

Indeed. But I also love the tank battle that precedes it. One of my favorite action scenes in the franchise alongside the desert chase on ROTLA.

[Andy 4,141]

For me Temple has the best last act. From the release of the Slave children, the fist fight, mine car, and unforgettable rope bridge scene, it’s all pure excitement. And not just empty adrenaline either. It’s fun, emotionally satisfying as a liberation from Hell, and Indy persevering with that last stone on the top of the bridge makes me smile every time.  And then the cherry on top is the glorious return to the village and character arc “I understand its power now. “

[Faleel 5,359]

5 minutes ago, Andy said:

“I understand its power now. “

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

https://ew.com/movies/mads-mikkelsen-indiana-jones-dial-of-destiny-villain-preview/

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

11 hours ago, mstrox said:

When George created Jar Jar Binks in 1975, technology had to catch up.

 

This is worded like I went into ChatGPT and asked it to give me a joke about George Lucas in the style of a Chuck Norris joke, and I love it.

[oierem 152]

6 hours ago, Andy said:

For me Temple has the best last act. From the release of the Slave children, the fist fight, mine car, and unforgettable rope bridge scene, it’s all pure excitement. And not just empty adrenaline either. It’s fun, emotionally satisfying as a liberation from Hell, and Indy persevering with that last stone on the top of the bridge makes me smile every time.  And then the cherry on top is the glorious return to the village and character arc “I understand its power now. “

 

Agreed. Crusade is indeed the second best of the trilogy just behind Raiders.... but Temple of Doom is even better than the best! 

[Chen G. 3,950]

10 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I rewatched Last Crusade recently. While not the breath of fresh air, instant classic that Raiders was (how could it be?) nor quite as courageous a departure as Temple of Doom, I decided it has the best final act of the three. It’s an (mostly) excellent film throughout, but everything from the moment they enter Petra is just brilliant. The father/son stuff between Sean & Harrison is phenomenal. So perfectly realised it's just amazing Lucas and Spielberg stumbled on it. IMO it ranks fairly close to Raiders in being the second best of the trilogy. 

 

I think its by far the best through and through, precisely because of the father-son dynamic. There's just way more at stake there for the characters.

[Brónach 1,302]

i'm in love with that movie

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

43 minutes ago, Brónach said:

i'm in love with that movie

 

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

For a lot of years, The Last Crusade was not only my favorite Indiana Jones movie, but my favorite movie period. Everything about it works for me. The action is great, the girl is sexy, the humor lands, the pacing is perfect and I genuinely connect with the emotions at play between father and son. It has its tongue firmly planted in its cheek at all times, but in spite of that, I find the film emotionally engaging over its entire length. It also has one of the first John Williams soundtracks that I really attached to as a teenager. I played that OST endlessly in high school.

[Alex 2,835]

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

For a lot of years, The Last Crusade was not only my favorite Indiana Jones movie, but my favorite movie period. Everything about it works for me. The action is great, the girl is sexy, the humor lands, the pacing is perfect and I genuinely connect with the emotions at play between father and son. It has its tongue firmly planted in its cheek at all times, but in spite of that, I find the film emotionally engaging over its entire length. It also has one of the first John Williams soundtracks that I really attached to as a teenager. I played that OST endlessly in high school.

I rewatched it recently for the first time in years and I agree 100%

[Chen G. 3,950]

13 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

It has its tongue firmly planted in its cheek at all times, but in spite of that, I find the film emotionally engaging over its entire length.

 

Its basically a father-son comedy.

 

I actually think Indiana Jones works better as a comedy than as a straight-faced adventure. Even when it is played straight-faced (as in Raiders of the Lost Ark) its still self-consciously ridiculous. Its not so much about having the audience in on the joke so much as channeling it into laughs.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

19 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

The action is great, the girl is sexy, the humor lands, the pacing is perfect and I genuinely connect with the emotions at play between father and son.

Agree with all this. I’ll just add that while I do agree Alison Doody is damn sexy, she really doesn’t bring much to the role beyond that. Which is probably intentional, since the witty reportoire was rightly reserved for Henries Sr. & Junior. Had she had a more defined role like Marion & Willy it would have been a distraction.

 

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I actually think Indiana Jones works better as a comedy than as a straight-faced adventure. Even when it is played straight-faced (as in Raiders of the Lost Ark) its still self-consciously ridiculous. Its not so much about having the audience in on the joke so much as channeling it into laughs.

Yeah I think I disagree with this. While all three films have comedic elements (admittedly none more so than the third), I wouldn’t call any of them comedies. Sure, Last Crusade has some father/son humour, but Indy & Henry aren’t quite the Marx Brothers. I’m not sure I’d push it much more than what they did in terms of laughs lest you start getting into The Mummy territory…which I think does tend to fall into the more “self-consciously ridiculous” category.

 

I think it would be more apt to call recent MCU movies comedies rather than any of the Indy films.

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I think it would be more apt to call recent MCU movies comedies

 

They're more like tragedies.

 

8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Indy & Henry aren’t quite the Marx Brothers.

 

Yeah, they're missing two.

[Chen G. 3,950]

4 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I think it would be more apt to call recent MCU movies comedies rather than any of the Indy films.

 

Marvel films (all throughout, not just recently) are certainly comedies. Actually, farces.

[Brónach 1,302]

a lot of the beats in Temple and Crusade (an arguably some in Raiders) don't make sense to me outside of a comedy context.

[Obi 404]

First Clip with new John Williams music !!

 

https://www.festival-cannes.com/en/medialibrary/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-by-james-mangold-clip-1/

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

3 hours ago, Obi said:

First Clip with new John Williams music !!

 

https://www.festival-cannes.com/en/medialibrary/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-by-james-mangold-clip-1/

Good grief. 
 

People think this looks good?

[mstrox 6,651]

I think it looks a heck of a lot better than the muddy green screen jungle chase in the fourth one, and frankly that’s as high as the bar has been set for me since 2008.

[Holko 9,531]

I don't think this muddy green screen chase looks much better at all, with the fake cars in the fake environment and the fake lighting with the entire sky being a Kaminski window giving everything a dull gold brown wash.

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

30 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I think it looks a heck of a lot better than the muddy green screen jungle chase in the fourth one, and frankly that’s as high as the bar has been set for me since 2008.

 

Finally, those years of limbo training pays off.

[Tallguy 3,401]

It feels rather Tintin. It also feels about the same as I felt about the mine car chase in Temple.

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

People think this looks good?

 

I didn't want to say anything to rain on people's parade, but yeah.

 

Sad old Emeritus Jones is sad.

[Andy 4,141]

16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I didn't want to say anything to rain on people's parade.

I didn’t watch the clip because spoilers, but your raining on my Parade of the Slave Children. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

Looks good to me. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

7 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Looks good to me. 

Dude….

[Brónach 1,302]

i'm more annoyed by the famously unfinished effects in The Last Crusade because i like that one

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

i'm more annoyed by the famously unfinished effects in The Last Crusade because i like that one

 

Unfinished effects? Which?

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

7 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Unfinished effects? Which?

 

They didn't finish deaging Donovan in this scene:

 

 

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

8 hours ago, Obi said:

First Clip with new John Williams music !!

 

https://www.festival-cannes.com/en/medialibrary/indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny-by-james-mangold-clip-1/

The music was... familiar. I think it had a lot from Kingdom with a bit of Cusade. Interesting.

 

Regarding the looks of it... I've seen worse.

[scallenger 483]

It actually looked better to me than I had expected from the scene as it was shown in the trailer. Of course, the trailer cut its moments in a certain way that seemed far less appealing than they do in this full clip.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,552]

I thought that the editing was a trifle off, in places. Other than that, it looks promising.

[Tallguy 3,401]

I actually didn't mind the banter and character interaction. But it didn't have the immediacy and reality of Desert Chase or the motorcycles in Last Crusade. It felt more like the speeder bikes in Jedi.

 

Are there any terrific real car chases that have people having conversations?

[Andy 4,141]

But… but what about Star Wars??!??

[Tallguy 3,401]

8 minutes ago, Andy said:

But… but what about Star Wars??!??

 

Hey, I mentioned the speeder bike chase in Jedi.