Jay 37,373 Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 29 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: Oh I just made the thread. I thought it made sense to have two, one for Williams videos and one for non-Williams, being that this is JWFan. Might as well keep the Williams related videos together in one place. Wait a minute, you're back?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Brundlefly said: Wait a minute, you're back?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,373 Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 Just now, Brundlefly said: Wait a minute, you're back?! http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27948-john-powells-ferdinand-2017/&do=findComment&comment=1471794 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,359 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 59 minutes ago, Jay said: I dunno about that, are Bloodboal's or Faleel's or Mr. Breathmask's threads "professional"? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,018 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 I fucking love this set! There, my contribution to this discussion. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, crocodile said: I fucking love this set! There, my contribution to this discussion. Karol What was your listening experience tonight? Just disc 1? Just disc 2? Both discs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,018 Posted May 11, 2018 Share Posted May 11, 2018 Tonight it is disc 1 of the new set. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,530 Posted June 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2018 So, now after living with this set for 6 months, my thoughts are finally starting to take coherent form beside "this is very great". Please do correct me if I make mistakes or false assuptions in my effort to speak magnitudes about this score and release. If I copy others' thoughts, it's completely accidental, I made this all up here on the spot, my intent is not to plagiarise. Williams not only wrote some iconic motifs and setpieces to combine into a magnificent whole like with most of his other scores - here, he played around with and pushed the borders of (maybe reinvented?) how the orchestra can be used to tell a story. The motifs and their structure is actually quite simple and apparent, what's more interesting is how and when they're used in what surrounding soundscapes, but I'll list all my thoughts. Let's ignore Navy Planes and Lost Squadron, they're an introduction, a hook, not really a part of the main narrative. Music is only used in the movie when the visitors or their influence are directly or indirectly present. Williams uses both motivic and atmospheric writing, and both tonal and atonal music. The way I see it, tonal music and motifs represent knowledge, understanding, even the vaguest forms of them, or the active pursuit of them. Atonal is the unknown, the unsure, the non-understandable. A brilliant choice, since understanding and relating to tonal music comes much more easily to even those of us who are not exactly experts on the subject, less so with atonal. The score starts with atonality at the aliens' first appearance, then motifs start appearing as Roy knows he has to understand this and get to the bottom of it. The most famous atonal example could be Barry's Kidnapping - Jillian doesn't understand anything that's going on. The Mothership starts atonal, as it's a surprise and could still go both ways, but turns calming and tonal at the end, because they didn't come to fry us, they're peaceful and want to communicate. Also fitting into this is how the first understandable in-universe thing about the aliens is a little 5-tone musical motif - eventually the very important key in communication, the basis of understanding. Out of universe, in the score, another motif is the first bit of knowledge the aliens implant - the simple two-note Vision motif, nice, but not satisfying, incomplete. It develops in two ways: the first is the Obsession motif, which inverts the Vision and uses it in a Dies Irae-like rythm, signalling that this is not the main intended development, but Roy's frustration at not understanding The Vision at first, then his drive of getting there once he does (this has an accompaniment or two, sometimes giving the rythm, other times leading it in or enhancing it). Interestingly, Obsession appears much before the Vision - Roy is already entranced before he even realises what he witnessed. Interestingly, the removed first half of the cue (and scene) "Stars and Trucks" connects Roy and Lacombe in their vision and obsession, like the later cue "Dark Side of the Moon (also removed from the final film?). This is not exactly the place for my usual nitpicky bitchy side, but why the hell were those quick shots removed and why are they not present in any of the three goddnam versions? It's short but nice, and we already know Lacombe's not a bad guy, it's not spoiling anything. The main development of The Vision is, of course, the Mountain motif, which takes the two notes and makes them into three, and adds a winding down figure to make it complete. It already tries to break out in "Forming the Mountain", but ironically, it can't form fully and properly. Even TV Reveals doesn't present it completely, only when seeing it in person is the revelation complete. Another way to look at this is that The Vision is basically a stripped-down, basic, slightly incorrect version of The Mountain. Ever get an earworm you couldn't identify, it drove you mad, you tried to twist it to make sense of it and see where it's from, then it finally all made sense when you realised what it is? These 3 are exactly like that. The military also get a little motif related to Obsession, but only right after they understand the alien message - and since what they decide to do with it is to mislead and frighten the population, it's slightly sinister. Once the landing site is reached, Roy's Obsession, the irritating false lead disappears entirely and gives way to what's more a wink than a motif - his childlike wonder coming back through When You Wish Upon a Star. The Conversation is an ingenious realisation of an ingenious idea. The visitors gave us multiple clues, and have successfully led us to Devil's Tower, now comes the communication. They try to find out whether we're truly worthy of going interplanetary, but are frustrated at first with how we only seem to repeat the 5 tones, the "hello" motif, with seemingly no individual thought or understanding how it's kind of a language. They take a step back, and start teaching us the basics, and are surprised when we teach them something back. At the first sign of truly independent and intelligent life - a successful attempt at cooperation - , they start freaking out with excitement, repeating variants of their "hello" motif, then give a base rythm on which to variate and improvise together, creating the first interspecies jamming session, and deciding humanity is worth keeping around and being friends with. ALL THIS understandable just through 4 and a half minutes of instrumental music, as outright dialogue between two instruments (with a third one entering later to give a rythm as the common grounds). The finale, reaching its hight in the credits, pits all remaining motifs together in a joyous buildup - The Vision has turned into The Mountain, The Obsession has given way to When You Wish Upon a Star, the Military is not a factor anymore, but the Five Tones have entered as the key and proof of successful communication and mutual understanding. This was possibly the best purchase of my life, and if forced to choose only one set to keep from the expanded Williams releases I own so far (E.T, Jaws, this and soon Jurassic Park), there's absolutely no question this is the one I'd want to keep around forever. As much as I'm (mostly was, but still am) a C&C nut, this score has no Mickey Mousing or character-and-place-specific motifs, the narrative devices run deeper than that, so I have no problem with a little rearranging as long as the finale and the general shape is intact. With the LLL set, I can listen through both discs in one sitting, which sadly cannot be said for Jaws or E.T.- for them, both are good on their own (first disc is usually preferable), but overbearing and repetitive when listened consecutively. These discs are both fantastic on their own, and are fantastic together. Everyone involved has every right to be incredibly proud. OK, just to allow myself one teeny-tiny nitpick to make it through the day: Roy's face looks a little iffy on the first disc. A bit bigger problem is how the booklet refuses to tell you what is actually on the discs, what's what. That's it, now I'll survive. ChrisAfonso, The Illustrious Jerry, Incanus and 8 others 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Yeah it is a pretty neat score. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Now @Holko, you finally realise why CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND is the best fucking thing that JW has ever done. The Five Tones and Amer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,530 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 One of the, yes. Nothing is likely to top STAR WARS for me as my favourite score, but this is truly an incredible and special masterpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 One thing is likely to top STAR WARS: the score JW composed immediately afterwards - and to think that he nearly didn't work on the film... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,086 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Jaws 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 On 6/26/2018 at 5:14 AM, Holko said: The military also get a little motif, but only right after they understand the alien message - and since what they decide to do with it is to mislead and frighten the population, it's slightly sinister. The military motif itself comprises two phrase halves that are each a variation on the Dies Irae motif (Obsession), suggesting the military as a further extension of the red herring / paranoia, and is presented at one point in a fugal treatment (a la Jaws, Black Sunday, etc.) that contrasts the hyperrational, "advanced" counterpoint in The Conversation. On 6/26/2018 at 5:14 AM, Holko said: Let's ignore Navy Planes and Lost Squadron, they're an introduction, a hook, not really a part of the main narrative. I can see that, but I have also thought of them as occupying a hazy tonal space around the fracture point the Main Title big bang provides, and setting up the paranoia subject matter. Navy Planes presents an embryonic military motif, notes flipped for the objects from an earlier era on screen. Lost Squadron is a bit Scriabinesque, i.e. referencing the real world-meets-diegetic connection to the synaesthetic colour and pitch concept. More importantly, it hints at the Mountain theme in variation at the end; notes 2 and 3 intact, but 1 substituted by another note from the chord it belongs to. I would say the narrative begins somewhere here. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,018 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 I know I am committing a bit of a faux pas but sometimes when I try to hum Williams' military motifs from Close Encounters I somehow end up humming Giacchino's miliary motif from Super 8/Secret Weapons Over Normandy. I am a bad person, I know. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallguy 3,401 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 My son tries to hum Lost in Space and ends up with Jurassic Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,373 Posted June 27, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2018 On 6/26/2018 at 5:14 AM, Holko said: So, now after living with this set for 6 months, my thoughts are finally starting to take coherent form beside "this is very great". Please do correct me if I make mistakes or false assuptions in my effort to speak magnitudes about this score and release. If I copy others' thoughts, it's completely accidental, I made this all up here on the spot, my intent is not to plagiarise. Williams not only wrote some iconic motifs and setpieces to combine into a magnificent whole like with most of his other scores - here, he played around with and pushed the borders of (maybe reinvented?) how the orchestra can be used to tell a story. The motifs and their structure is actually quite simple and apparent, what's more interesting is how and when they're used in what surrounding soundscapes, but I'll list all my thoughts. Let's ignore Navy Planes and Lost Squadron, they're an introduction, a hook, not really a part of the main narrative. Music is only used in the movie when the visitors or their influence are directly or indirectly present. Williams uses both motivic and atmospheric writing, and both tonal and atonal music. The way I see it, tonal music and motifs represent knowledge, understanding, even the vaguest forms of them, or the active pursuit of them. Atonal is the unknown, the unsure, the non-understandable. A brilliant choice, since understanding and relating to tonal music comes much more easily to even those of us who are not exactly experts on the subject, less so with atonal. The score starts with atonality at the aliens' first appearance, then motifs start appearing as Roy knows he has to understand this and get to the bottom of it. The most famous atonal example could be Barry's Kidnapping - Jillian doesn't understand anything that's going on. The Mothership starts atonal, as it's a surprise and could still go both ways, but turns calming and tonal at the end, because they didn't come to fry us, they're peaceful and want to communicate. Also fitting into this is how the first understandable in-universe thing about the aliens is a little 5-tone musical motif - eventually the very important key in communication, the basis of understanding. Out of universe, in the score, another motif is the first bit of knowledge the aliens implant - the simple two-note Vision motif, nice, but not satisfying, incomplete. It develops in two ways: the first is the Obsession motif, which inverts the Vision and uses it in a Dies Irae-like rythm, signalling that this is not the main intended development, but Roy's frustration at not understanding The Vision at first, then his drive of getting there once he does (this has an accompaniment or two, sometimes giving the rythm, other times leading it in or enhancing it). Interestingly, Obsession appears much before the Vision - Roy is already entranced before he even realises what he witnessed. Interestingly, the removed first half of the cue (and scene) "Stars and Trucks" connects Roy and Lacombe in their vision and obsession, like the later cue "Dark Side of the Moon (also removed from the final film?). This is not exactly the place for my usual nitpicky bitchy side, but why the hell were those quick shots removed and why are they not present in any of the three goddnam versions? It's short but nice, and we already know Lacombe's not a bad guy, it's not spoiling anything. The main development of The Vision is, of course, the Mountain motif, which takes the two notes and makes them into three, and adds a winding down figure to make it complete. Another way to look at this is that The Vision is basically a stripped-down, basic, slightly incorrect version of The Mountain. Ever get an earworm you couldn't identify, it drove you mad, you tried to twist it to make sense of it and see where it's from, then it finally all made sense when you realised what it is? These 3 are exactly like that. The military also get a little motif, but only right after they understand the alien message - and since what they decide to do with it is to mislead and frighten the population, it's slightly sinister. Once the landing site is reached, Roy's Obsession, the irritating false lead disappears entirely and gives way to what's more a wink than a motif - his childlike wonder coming back through When You Wish Upon a Star. The Conversation is an ingenious realisation of an ingenious idea. The visitors gave us multiple clues, and have successfully led us to Devil's Tower, now comes the communication. They try to find out whether we're truly worthy of going interplanetary, but are frustrated at first with how we only seem to repeat the 5 tones, the "hello" motif with seemingly no individual thought or understanding how it's kind of a language. They take a step back, and start teaching us the basics, and are surprised when we teach them something back. At the first sign of truly independent and intellignet life - a successful attempt at cooperation - , they start spazzing out with excitement, repeating variants of their "hello" motif, then give a base rythm on which to variate and improvise together, creating the first interspecies jamming session, and deciding humanity is worth keeping around and being friends with. ALL THIS understandable just through 4 and a half minutes of instrumental music, as outright dialogue between two instruments (with a third one entering later to give a rythm as the common grounds). The finale, reaching its hight in the credits pits all remaining motifs together in a joyous buildup - The Vision has turned into The Mountain, The Obsession has given way to When You Wish Upon a Star, the Military is not a factor anymore, but the Five Tones have entered as the key and proof of successful communication and mutual understanding. This was possibly the best purchase of my life, and if forced to choose only one set to keep from the expanded Williams releases I own so far (E.T, Jaws, this and soon Jurassic Park), there's absolutely no question this is the one I'd want to keep around forever. As much as I'm (mostly was, but still am) a C&C nut, this score has no Mickey Mousing or character-and-place-specific motifs, the narrative devices run deeper than that, so I have no problem with a little rearranging as long as the finale and the general shape is intact. With the LLL set, I can listen through both discs in one sitting, which sadly cannot be said for Jaws or E.T.- for them, both are good on their own (first disc is usually preferable), but overbearing and repetitive when listened consecutively. These discs are both fantastic on their own, and are fantastic together. Everyone involved has every right to be incredibly proud. OK, just to allow myself one teeny-tiny nitpick to make it through the day: Roy's face looks a little iffy on the first disc. A bit bigger problem is how the booklet refuses to tell you what is actually on the discs, what's what. That's it, now I'll survive. QUALITY POST RIGHT HERE. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, I really, REALLY enjoyed reading this! The Illustrious Jerry, The Five Tones and Holko 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,018 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tallguy said: My son tries to hum Lost in Space and ends up with Jurassic Park. Yes, but your son at least fails upwards! Karol Holko and rough cut 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 57 minutes ago, Jay said: QUALITY POST RIGHT HERE. Yep. So much so that it's going to be posted as a review of the set for the main page. Even though I disagree on the sequencing and will post my detailed thoughts about it one of these days. Incanus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,530 Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 WHAT? If that's true, I did a tiny bit of cleanup, and I request my two sentences of bitching about Stars and Trucks being deleted, and the set nitpicks at the end to be removed from the main page version. This turned out to be way more formal than anticipated and these are the last reminders that this is just a personal forum post - I think they'd have absolutely no place in a main page review. Also, maybe my "Let's ignore Navy Planes and Lost Squadron" sentence is useless or wrong, since I just learned yesterday that there's more to them than I previously thought, perhaps that can be taken out also. The Five Tones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,359 Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 22 hours ago, Holko said: Also, maybe my "Let's ignore Navy Planes and Lost Squadron" sentence is useless or wrong, since I just learned yesterday that there's more to them than I previously thought. Doesn't Barnstorming (or whatever) kind of have a short section that kind of sounds like the Navy Planes cue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Ware 526 Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 11 hours ago, Fal said: Doesn't Barnstorming (or whatever) kind of have a short section that kind of sounds like the Navy Planes cue? Navy Planes does subtly prefigure elements of the finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 On 6/26/2018 at 5:14 AM, Holko said: The main development of The Vision is, of course, the Mountain motif, which takes the two notes and makes them into three, and adds a winding down figure to make it complete. It already tries to break out in "Forming the Mountain", but ironically, it can't form fully and properly On 6/27/2018 at 3:59 PM, The Five Tones said: Lost Squadron is a bit Scriabinesque, i.e. referencing the real world-meets-diegetic connection to the synaesthetic colour and pitch concept. More importantly, it hints at the Mountain theme in variation at the end; notes 2 and 3 intact, but 1 substituted by another note from the chord it belongs to. I would say the narrative begins somewhere here. The same three-note hint/variation of the Mountain theme in Lost Squadron recurs in Forming the Mountain, which adds the "wind down" notes, also in variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theMaestraX 106 Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 A fabulous/superb masterpiece of a score - cannot get enough play time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,350 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Question about the score, not the set itself, which I hope hasn't been answered yet. I'm loving that weird 'ying ying ying' sound in tracks like Chasing UFOs. Is that a real choir or synthesizers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Real choir. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted December 3, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 3, 2018 Far be it from me to complain about anything with this wonderful release, I've listened to it so much this year, but the more I think about it the more I'm a bit annoyed that Disc 2 was presented with so little explanation beyond "here's a bunch of stuff, figure it out." I shouldn't have to use a (very good) spreadsheet on a forum to understand what it is I'm even listening to. bollemanneke, Smeltington and Holko 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,530 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 You're like Roy trying to make sense of the Vision and the spreadsheet is TV Reveals, which allows you to proceed to The Mountain and beyond! Smeltington and Disco Stu 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 To be clear, I think the experimentation with more "listening experience" focus is fantastic. I'm not complaining about the presentation of the music. Just the lack of context for the "Alternates and Additional Music" disc. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: To be clear, I think the experimentation with more "listening experience" focus is fantastic. I'm not complaining about the presentation of the music. Just the lack of context for the "Alternates and Additional Music" disc. Justified. We JWFans have JWFan to figure that out, but the rest... I listened to this and to E.T. approximately twice. Haven't got time so far, was busy listening to much Goldsmith stuff, I guess. But the CD is in my shelf and won't decompose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan 689 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Brundlefly said: Justified. We JWFans have JWFan to figure that out, but the rest... True! But would the rest even notice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 22 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: I listened to this and to E.T. approximately twice. About the same. I do like the track arrangement for listening value of this release. But CE3K and ET both existed in near-complete form for decades now, so these releases didn't offer so significantly much that I fixated on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkraly2004 27 Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Close Encounters of The Third Kind 40th Anniversary Remastered Edition : 2-CD Set Limited Edition from La Land Records I got in the mail awhile back. Great score and amazing soundtrack and I'm happy to have this in my CD Soundtracks Collection !!! The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 22, 2019 Today's lunchtime reading (from The Musical Quarterly) I'm not sure I've read an analysis before that connects the mountain vision theme to the "When You Wish Upon a Star" bridge, musically. I definitely hear it, and maybe I'd read it before but I don't remember. This article is very good. The writer calls it "Fate is Kind" Here's the two examples he compares in audio form (0:41 - 0:53) (1:07 - 1:16) Datameister, Nick Parker, BrotherSound and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Wow, I never made that connection, but there definitely is some shared intervallic DNA. No wonder I like both so much... Nick Parker and Disco Stu 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Me neither, and it's one of my favorite Williams themes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 That's ok, guys. For the longest time, I didn't realise that THE ALLIANCE ASSEMBLES (or whatever it's called) is a variation on THE THRONE ROOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Me neither, and Return of the Jedi is my favorite Star Wars score! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherSound 2,242 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Richard said: That's ok, guys. For the longest time, I didn't realise that THE ALLIANCE ASSEMBLES (or whatever it's called) is a variation on THE THRONE ROOM Are you thinking of 'The Fleet Enters Hyperspace'? ('The Fleet Goes Into Hyperspace' for those of us who grew up with the anthology box set.) Same key, even! Enharmonically, that is. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 9 hours ago, Disco Stu said: I'm not sure I've read an analysis before that connects the mountain vision theme to the "When You Wish Upon a Star" bridge, musically. I definitely hear it, and maybe I'd read it before but I don't remember. It is true. I first noticed it on the 1998 CD, which was my first exposure to it. You hear the cellos play the first three* notes of the mountain theme exactly as they have in earlier readings of the theme during the finale, expecting another reading, then that fourth note catches your attention as... a "variation" of the theme? No, it's a different tune altogether! And there is even a harmony present in the When You Wish bridge that pre/echoes the half-diminished chord in the mountain theme (discussed in the favourite JW harmonies thread). *I'm counting the pickup note that isn't shown in the score example in your comment. (at 3:50) 2 hours ago, BrotherSound said: Are you thinking of 'The Fleet Enters Hyperspace'? ('The Fleet Goes Into Hyperspace' for those of us who grew up with the anthology box set.) Same key, even! Enharmonically, that is. Yes. Also, here's a quote from @Falstaft's latest edition of his leitmotif catalogue, to that point: "In a few cases, One-Scene-Wonders may even be promoted to leitmotivic status through repetition and variation in later films (ex. "Throne Room" in ANH being transformed in ROTJ..." BrotherSound 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 The article I spoke of yesterday really is fascinating. The bulk of it is devoted to how Williams lays the groundwork for the Mountain theme, pieces it together slowly until its truly grand debut when Roy and Jillian arrive at Devil's Tower, followed by the theme's culmination in "The Visitors." This gradual emergence of a theme is the teleological genesis in the article's title. For instance, in the Lost Squadron cue at the very beginning of the film, the author identifies two places where Williams begins to hint at the theme. He notes that the music is first introduced around the interview with the old man, also laying the unconscious groundwork that this music is associated with the overwhelming impact contact with the aliens has on a person. First, when the scientist asks the old man what he saw. (1:08 - 1:15) The top stave is the music in the cue, the bottom is the "definitive" interval spacing of the theme. Then a different hint of the theme later in the same cue, after the man's story is done. (1:53 - end) This one is more obviously related to the final theme to my ears. It sounds like it, but just darker and more ominous than the beautifully transcendent version we get in the contact scene. Or, as the author puts it: Quote The intervallic pattern here is descending minor second/ascending perfect fourth, instead of the definitive form, which is ascending major second/ascending perfect fourth. Retrospectively, we understand that the B-flat is “wrong” (it should be a G). The first half of the motive is still embryonic—its intervallic structure has not yet been locked into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,530 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 So... a more fancypants version of my silly little writeup? Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Holko said: So... a more fancypants version of my silly little writeup? Let me know when you start using terms like "musico-dramatic sensitivity." Yeah, this is mostly stuff that true Williams obsessives have taken note of for years and are more and more starting to make their way into music scholarship. For real, though, it's a very well-written article, I like the conclusion a lot. Quote Of course, the opportunity to use sophisticated formal strategies like teleological genesis in film music is entirely dependent on the structure of the narrative. Williams has remarked that “[Spielberg's] subjects and way of directing are very compatible with a sense of musical development”37—no doubt one important reason for the close professional bond between the two artists, who have collaborated on twenty-five films. But it takes a composer of particular musico-dramatic sensitivity and skill to recognize the potential for employing such a structural approach. Gail Kubik (who, like Williams, was active in both film and concert music) describes the peculiar formal challenge of film composing in a 1945 essay on music in documentaries: Most film music problems … pose this question: Can the composer discover the architectural form which the film itself takes and, assuming that he has the instinctive dramatic talent which enables him to perceive this form, can he then translate his reactions to the film's structure into sounds which are musically satisfactory and convincing, yet which also supplement the dramatic impact of the film itself?38 Few composers have been as consistently adept as Williams at negotiating this delicate balance between musical and filmic form. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Spielberg was confused about how and why to reference Pinocchio. I think discussing it with JW was the right idea so it could be subtly infused in the scores DNA but it seems Spielberg continued to wrestle with it. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 How brilliant to take Spielberg's concept of playing the song in the final contact sequence and subtly prepare the audience for that musically throughout the score. Even if Spielberg ended up dropping that the actual song, it totally adds to the ambivalent beauty of the aliens/UFOs. Or as Williams puts it: Quote “When You Wish Upon a Star” was in Close Encounters, disguised, for the sense of mystique. It is a beautiful song and it meant a lot to Steven, and there are strong associations, fantastic associations with it. Most people don't even notice it, and that's all right, too. It may be just a kind of artistic conceit, I suppose, but it has some meaning to us. That should be enough of a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 And as Spielberg put it: "On Close Encounters, I had a very important decision to make: whether or not to use the Walt Disney song, "When You Wish Upon a Star" at the end of the movie, with Jiminy Cricket's actual voice performing it. And the only way I could tell was to have two different previews, on two different nights: one night with the song, one night without it. I then analyzed the preview cards very carefully, interviewed the people who left the theater, and made a determination that the audience wanted to be transported into another world along with Richard Dreyfuss as he walked aboard the mothership. They didn't want to be told the film was a fantasy, and this song seemed to belie some of the authenticity and to bespeak fantasy and fairy tale. And I didn't want Close Encounters to end just in a dream." So what Williams did was infuse that magic and nostalgia subtly. Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,530 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 His overreaction to this (tracking over the Williams credits with kinda unfitting music to get rid of all traced of the song) was pretty wrong. How the hell did he even get to the point where he put the song in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 CE3K is in some ways a very frustrating score for me. As heard on album, I hold it right alongside ET as the pinnacle of Williams' achievements. In terms of absolutely perfectly supporting and enhancing both the story, and the underlying themes (the meat on the bones of the story). But then I rewatch the film (either the theatrical or the '98) and so much of his original intentions are microedited and tracked to hell. It's still BRILLIANT in the film.... but not quite as brilliant as it could have been (in my opinion). This is in opposition to ET, one of his least edited Spielberg scores, which shows I think the incredible confidence both Spielberg and Williams had with ET, whereas you can tell that Spielberg was doing a lot more second- and third-guessing on CE3K. Holko and The Five Tones 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: CE3K is in some ways a very frustrating score for me. As heard on album, I hold it right alongside ET as the pinnacle of Williams' achievements. In terms of absolutely perfectly supporting and enhancing both the story, and the underlying themes (the meat on the bones of the story). But then I rewatch the film (either the theatrical or the '98) and so much of his original intentions are microedited and tracked to hell. It's still BRILLIANT in the film.... but not quite as brilliant as it could have been (in my opinion). This is in opposition to ET, one of his least edited Spielberg scores, which shows I think the incredible confidence both Spielberg and Williams had with ET, whereas you can tell that Spielberg was doing a lot more second- and third-guessing on CE3K. I think what you just complained about is that CE3K movie is a frustrating FILM because it was microedited and had an uncertain narrative thread unlike E.T. But somehow you said the "CE3K is in some ways a very frustrating SCORE..." CE3K is a frustrating film with a very, very gorgeous score. The score is hampered by the micro edits and multiple versions of the film that confuse the plot and added new score (mothership, when you wish upon a star in the special edition). As far as I understand (and this is unclear to me), the Pinocchio subtext is that Roy didn't want to grow up? He had child like wonder and this resulted in him leaving adult responsibilities of fatherhood and husband behind to have his wishes fulfilled? Very confused plot because that is NOT what Pinocchio is at all about but Roy references how he enjoyed it as a kid early in the film. Pinocchiois about the toy who wishes to be a real boy when he sees a falling star at all costs and that was his non stop wish (A.I.). In reading the old interviews from Spielberg, it is pretty clear, he didn't have a very strong sense for what the story meant either other than he wanted to evoke a nostalgia mood for Disney wonder which is even worse as a story subtext. Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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