What happened to the sound on the 1997 SW 2-CD sets, and how did it happen?

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

I mean, with both Redman and Matessino credited as producers, how could the scores end up sounding increasingly pinched?

[crumbs 14,696]

I believe Matessino's only involvement in the release was providing an editing reference for which cues to use from the sessions, and how to assemble the scores across two CDs (essentially an assembly guide for the cue list).

 

Supposedly it resulted from some poorly calibrated noise reduction process that happened towards the end of production. Clearly this process must have happened extremely late, to the point no engineers or producers bothered checking the results before sending the masters to manufacture.

 

Perplexingly, this was never resolved in the 20 years following its release. Surely it wouldn't be hard to find a copy of the masters pre-noise reduction and reissue the set? I refuse to believe the raw masters sounded anything like the final product, considering the AQ of ROTJ gets progressively worse as the score goes on, implying  human error.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

4 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Perplexingly, this was never resolved in the 20 years following its release. Surely it wouldn't be hard to find a copy of the masters pre-noise reduction and reissue the set?

 

[crumbs 14,696]

Bit pointless now though, as modern scans of the analogue scoring tapes will sound vastly superior to scans done in 1997 (as evidenced by Disney's OST remasters, despite some mishandled mastering in places).

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

It's just interesting to know how good it could have sounded in '97. Someone who knows MM should ask if he's got copies of the masters before noise reduction was applied...

[Thor 8,191]

Yes, it's pretty amazing that the sound on those sets was inferior to the Arista box versions. One of the reasons why I sold them (in addition to the presentation, of course).

[Holko 10,086]

I would like to know how he reacted when he first heard RotJ.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

Yeah, we really need an interview with MM where he speaks with no filter.

 

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

Yes, it's pretty amazing that the sound on those sets was inferior to the Arista box versions. One of the reasons why I sold them (in addition to the presentation, of course).

 

The MM essays are great, though!

[crumbs 14,696]

I don't think Mike has ever publicly addressed or spoken about it, which is probably no coincidence. Same story with the botched Disney OST remasters. I'm a bit surprised the question didn't come up during his London chats, considering what happened with the SEs has been shrouded in such mystery for decades.

 

At least we know the ROTJ masters are properly digitised in high resolution and safe. They sound better in the Disney remasters than I've ever heard that score sound before -- even better than Sony's scans from 2015 (which weren't first generation scans).

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

7 minutes ago, Thor said:

I sold them

 

Now I know what to get you for christmas!

[Alan 697]

I never really heard much of a problem with ANH and Empire "back in the day". I do now of course, but only because of experience and getting used to hearing high quality audio. The SE Jedi release however always sounded awful to me and sticks with me as two of the worst sounding CDs I own. I don't know whether that's technically true or not but I can't think of anything else in my collection that sounds as compromised.

I'd also love to hear Mike talk about these sets freely but I totally get why he hasn't done so far, other than saying that they were frustrating for him on a personal process sort of level. I'd rather he gets the chance to work on them again than hear him criticise previous releases

[Holko 10,086]

Unfortunately he's professional enough not to surpass "No Comment".

[Matt S. 552]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

I believe Matessino's only involvement in the release was providing an editing reference for which cues to use from the sessions, and how to assemble the scores across two CDs (essentially an assembly guide for the cue list).

 

 

I'm pretty sure Mike also wrote the liner notes for the three booklets.

[Eplicon 53]

Part of the issue is that Mike and Nick had a relatively short window to get it edited, mixed, and mastered to coincide with the special edition release of the trilogy.  I've tended to prefer the RCA 2-CD set, at least in the case of Empire, because of the sound quality.  The Arista set, which adhered to Eric Tomilson's stellar mix, had quite a few dropouts and other anomalies as the tapes used at the time was the only available source.

 

If anyone hasn't read it before, check out the Jan/Feb 1997 issue of Film Score Monthly (available in the "print backissues" section as a PDF); Mike wrote some really good articles about it not covered in the RCA liner notes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,377]

Simple, these releases were done on the quick by Lucasfilm/RCA and because of that they arent quite what they should have been. 

I still consider them vital because there hasnt been any legit release after that wholly replaces them.

 

ANH and TESB sound fine, imo.

 

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,357]

Agreed. ANH and ESB sound fine. ROTJ is the drop-off point.

 

Didn't Matessino also write the liner notes?

[1977 1,745]

Didn't Chris Malone write a lengthy essay about the various SW releases over the years? I think it covers this issue at length. I'll see if I can find a copy.

 

Edit: here is the link:

 

http://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.htm#.XJJfxx66J-E

 

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

At least we know the ROTJ masters are properly digitised in high resolution and safe. They sound better in the Disney remasters than I've ever heard that score sound before

 

I wonder why they released that feeble ROTJ album presentation if all the masters were digitised. It's a serious oddball between the 70 minute plus albums of the other five scores.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

It's the OST!

[Naïve Old Fart 10,305]

We need the STAR WARS Corrected Polarity Editions 

[1977 1,745]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's the OST!

 

It's a baaaad OST!

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

13 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

 

It's a baaaadaaaaas OST!

 

Fixed!

[The Train Station 8,566]

They weren't THX certified.

[The Five Tones 303]

The SEs were incredibly important to me when they came out... not least for the presentation and annotation. Even then, it was clear one should hold onto the 4-CD Anthology set, but not necessarily because of the sound. The audio was fine for my mid-range system back then, and although time has moved on and our ears have gotten used to noiseless high res digital recordings and restorations, and more listeners are headphone listeners or own desktop audio software and we expect more (i.e. the number of owners of the SE who say "it always sounded bad" mysteriously multiplies), I'm good for now. Until Matessino finally gets his chance to create a CC restoration, I will purchase no other releases... even if tempted by the promise of marginally better sound. It will be worth the wait.

[The Train Station 8,566]

Nothing beats a great hi-fi!

[John Dutton 7,259]

Three reasons why they invented stereos.

[The Train Station 8,566]

In Dolby Surround, where available.

[Marian Schedenig 8,892]

7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Yeah, we really need an interview with MM where he speaks with no filter.

 

No. We really need MM to get an opportunity to revisit them, and the chances for that are much better if he doesn't start bitching about the old production process in public.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

18 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

No. We really need MM to get an opportunity to revisit them, and the chances for that are much better if he doesn't start bitching about the old production process in public.

 

Of course, we need that interview after he's gifted the world complete editions of all nine scores!

[phbart 623]

Some two years ago I made a thread comparing the sound quality of the Main Titles (track 2) from the 97 CD against a reconstruction I made myself from the Main Title using the raw takes from the bonus tracks of the same CD.

 

The 97 release doesn't sound bad to me, but it could've sounded a whole lot better.

 

Here's the thread:

 

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,393]

The most annoying thing is that this issue hasn't been fixed yet. I mean the distance between the SEs and now is longer than the distance between the movies' releases and and the SEs.

 

1977: Star Wars

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1980: The Empire Strikes Back

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1983: Return of the Jedi

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1993: Anthology Box Set

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1997: Special Editions

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2004: Special Editions Reissues

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2016: OST Master Rescans for Digital Platforms

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2018: Disney's Demastered OSTs

2019: still nothing

[Holko 10,086]

2016 was the OST master rescans for digital platforms, the demasters were last year.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

Too bad they didn't release the 2016 remasters on CD.

[Amer 2,210]

The problem with EMPIRE and JEDI in particular is that the Sound mixing engineer (Dan Hersch) when remixing decided to enhance the center channel thereby robbing the entire equalisation of the original sound stage and reducing the brightness, EMPIRE isn't half bad but its been remixed wrong. Original Sound recording engineer Eric Tomlinson was so horrified that he asked Restoration engineer Chris Malone to shut down the cd. LOL. To make matters worse, on the JEDI disc 2 they had to use certain poor quality reels and in order to streamline the quality they decided to re-equalise and reduce the overall brightness- resulting in an abysmal sound. The only redeeming element being the the revised Ewok Celebration- where the new modern mix and brightness becomes even more jarring!

 

There is hope that JEDI will sound beyond terrific when its redone again (whenever) because far better quality tapes exist and stand preserved.

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 5,221]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Too bad they didn't release the 2016 remasters on CD.

At least they're available in HiFi. Or at least they were, until last year's release.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

CD quality is good enough if done right.

[rough cut 1,740]

For sure.

 

But leaving the CD vs Hi-Res debate, I used to be super into compiling lists with the best sounding versions of each track, from each release, including re-recordings. But after the Ultimate Collection it was too much, I just had too much Star Wars.

 

I’d still buy a MM produced set of the OT - in a heartbeat! - but I’ve stopped fussing over trying to find the “optimal” sound.

 

However, I did buy the Dudamel 2CD Celebrating John Williams after hearing his recording of The Throne Room. That one sounded too good to pass up!

 

Oh, JWfaners, what peculiar breed are we.

[The Train Station 8,566]

I have my doubts MM will be allowed anywhere near SW or Indy. Disney/LFL are probably aware of his relationship with Williams' people, so they're waiting for him to die, at which time they'll suddenly yank it away from MM and hand the project over to someone else in their own internal hierarchy who's probably already been selected. Someone who'll just brickwall the whole thing and make every fuck up King Mark ever feared.

[Bayesian 1,427]

2 hours ago, dougie said:

I have my doubts MM will be allowed anywhere near SW or Indy. Disney/LFL are probably aware of his relationship with Williams' people, so they're waiting for him to die, at which time they'll suddenly yank it away from MM and hand the project over to someone else in their own internal hierarchy who's probably already been selected. Someone who'll just brickwall the whole thing and make every fuck up King Mark ever feared.

That is literally a nightmare scenario. No, surely Disney understands how important it is to give this project to MM. Someone somewhere in that vast empire (that now officially includes most of Fox) is aware that SW is just too important a cultural touchstone to hand over to just anyone. They’ll see to it that Disney does right by these scores. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

All that is needed is for JW to phone Kathy and make a request.

[crumbs 14,696]

It would take literally two phone calls for it to happen. Williams' management to Kathleen Kennedy. KK to the head of Disney Records. End of discussion.

 

[Balahkay 629]

I have a feeling it's already in the works, at least the OT.

[The Train Station 8,566]

4 hours ago, Iron_Giant said:

That is literally a nightmare scenario. No, surely Disney understands how important it is to give this project to MM. Someone somewhere in that vast empire (that now officially includes most of Fox) is aware that SW is just too important a cultural touchstone to hand over to just anyone. They’ll see to it that Disney does right by these scores. 

 

I'm sure they'll just get Laurent Bouzereau to finish it off.

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

With Sean Murphy. Dream team!

[Amer 2,210]

The good thing is we know that Williams management will only allow Matessino to handle Williams related projects particularly those concerned with restoration and expansions. Tom Sawyer (Quartet) was the last time anyone else other than Matessino who was allowed to work on that.

 

As for Lucasfilm, Matessino has already indicated he has been talking to them on SW related projects and Iam hoping that a carefully planned timeline will eventually indicate his full involvement once the stars are properly aligned. (Hopefully in the not so distant future) 

[The Train Station 8,566]

Disney will probably insist that the artwork be as modern and generic as possible, probably with about 3,000 floating heads squeezed onto the front cover.

[Holko 10,086]

 

If Mike is requested, who's to say Titus won't be?

[Jurassic Shark 12,887]

Sean "Titus" Murphy?

[The Train Station 8,566]

[John Dutton 7,259]

For an entire generation, people have experienced the Star Wars soundtracks the only way it's been possible: on the 2CD sets. But if you've only heard it this way, you haven't heard it at all.

 

[The Train Station 8,566]

Hear it again... for the first time.