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Which adaptation of a previous Williams score (new question added)


1977

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42 members have voted

  1. 1. Which film score adapted from Williams material is your favourite, and why?

    • Superman II
    • Superman III
      0
    • Superman IV: The Quest for Peace
    • Superman Returns
    • Jaws 3-D
    • Jaws: The Revenge
    • Jurassic Park ///
    • Jurassic World
    • Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom
    • Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
    • Solo: A Star Wars Story
  2. 2. Which film score adapted from Williams material is your LEAST favourite, and why?

    • Superman II
    • Superman III
    • Superman IV: The Quest for Peace
    • Superman Returns
    • Jaws 3-D
    • Jaws: The Revenge
    • Jurassic Park ///
    • Jurassic World
    • Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom
    • Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
    • Solo: A Star Wars Story
  3. 3. Which film score with minimal quotes of Williams material handled his material best?

    • Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
    • Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
    • Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
    • Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part I
      0
    • Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part II
    • Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
    • Supergirl
    • Justice League
    • Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure (released theatrically outside North America)


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I have also ignored scores for other media, such as video games, television and park rides.

 

If you feel so inclined (or are bored enough) feel free to rank them in your post.

 

If you feel I have omitted something unfairly, or included something erroneously, please do let me know.

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It isn't really fair to lump Harry Potter 2 in with all these others; Williams wrote everything you hear in that score.  Ross just took Williams compositions and slightly tweaked them to fit the final cut.

 

In all your other poll options the new composer reworked his themes and wrote full scores using them.  

 

Apples and oranges.

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2 minutes ago, Jay said:

It isn't really fair to lump Harry Potter 2 in with all these others; Williams wrote everything you hear in that score.  Ross just took Williams compositions and slightly tweaked them to fit the final cut.

 

In all your other poll options the new composer reworked his themes and wrote full scores using them.  

 

Apples and oranges.

 

Ok I apologise Jay, I will remove HP2 shortly.

 

Edit: HP2 now removed as a voting option.

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I'm also not sure what qualifies Jurassic Park III on the poll but not Jurassic World and Fallen Kingdom.  All three scores similarly integrate Williams themes into otherwise original scores, so what's the difference?

 

Rogue One has less Williams material than any of the Jurassic Park sequels

 

Anyways, my pick is Solo, by far!  Powell did a great job, with Williams material and with his own material.  So many themes!

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4 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm also not sure what qualifies Jurassic Park III on the poll but not Jurassic World and Fallen Kingdom.  All three scores similarly integrate Williams themes into otherwise original scores, so what's the difference?

 

Rogue One has less Williams material than any of the Jurassic Park sequels.

 

I apologise once again Jay, I will include JW and it's sequel. Please don't shoot me @Thor

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Why aren't the 5 Harry Potter sequels and Fantastic Beasts scores included here? They all used Williams material!

 

And why isn't Shadows of the Empire represented here? I love that score! Do you have some type of personal issue with Joel McNeely?

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31 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Why aren't the 5 Harry Potter sequels and Fantastic Beasts scores included here? They all used Williams material!

 

And why isn't Shadows of the Empire represented here? I love that score! Do you have some type of personal issue with Joel McNeely?

 

As I said, I decided to not include scores that only present cursory usage of Williams material. Otherwise by rights I should have included Supergirl for that quote of the Superman theme in "Superman Poster".

 

Shadows of the Empire is not a film score. I do love McNeely's music though.

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What about all the adapted music for the Star Wars video games by Kevin Kiner and Gordy Haab?!

 

And why isn't Supergirl included for including the Superman theme?

 

Or Airplane! That contains some crucial quotes of the theme from Jaws!

 

 

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Solo's the favourite for sure.

RO the least partly because it's the only other one I've heard, but I'm quite sure it'd beat out some of the others even if I have heard them.

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On a serious note, there's really not much Williams material in Fallen Kingdom, it's almost entirely all Giacchino (save for 2 or 3 requisite appearances of Williams music, which is taken verbatim from what Williams wrote for the first score). Jurassic World and Rogue One are a very different story, not a big fan of those scores (if only for how godawful they sound).

 

I only remember fragments of Jaws: The Revenge but the music was borderline parody by the 4th film (especially with the hilariously bad visual effects and fake looking shark).

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I have admittedly not listened to any of these scores, maybe a few cues from Jaws 3-D, Jurassic World, and Rogue One but never a full listen through.  I've also not seen any of the movies, except for Jurassic Park III and Jurassic World.  And both stunk.

 

A couple adaptations not listed (because they're video games) that I always listen to are Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, and Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb.  But that's mostly because I love Indiana Jones related stuff.

 

It seems Solo: A Star Wars Story gets a lot of love around here, so maybe I'll finally give it a listen/watch.

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23 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

so maybe I'll finally give it a listen/watch.

Movie's eh, just listen to the score!

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25 minutes ago, Holko said:

Movie's eh, just listen to the score!

 

No, no. The movie is great, one of the best that year. The score is just icing on the cake (great icing, though).

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16 minutes ago, igger6 said:

Solo for sure.  It's not just the new themes, but the way Powell takes apart every measure of "The Adventures of Han," lovingly polishes it, and re-inserts it into the vast clockwork of his musical architecture.  I'm still noticing little details or re-dressings of melodic fragments in various cues that go back to Williams' theme.  The level of humility (making JW's theme the true, unquestionable centerpiece of the score) but not obsequiousness (having the guts to deploy it in so many different ways) that Powell displayed in that score is so perfect to the occasion.  It's honestly some of the most impressive music of the Disney era, and I don't feel like a traitor for saying that because Williams wrote the original tune fresh.

 

So perfectly said! When I first heard the score I couldn't believe how much Powell used the main theme despite it not being "his" theme. And how well he used it. And on repeat listens I discovered he had written a lot of really nice themes of his own. Everyone needs to hear Solo, though NOT everyone needs to see the movie, unless you have a Star Wars problem.

 

Rogue One is my least fav on the list. My sensibilities, indeed, they were offended. This quote totally applies to Rogue One:

 

18 minutes ago, igger6 said:

its deployment of the Williams material was both hamfisted and awkward

 

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I dislike Rogue One AND Giacchino's other blockbuster scores. It's just something about his style that I find grating, or less nuanced, or something. It's hard to articulate. 

 

"Quality is something very difficult to define", says noted composer John Williams, "but I know it when I hear it."

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1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

Can someone explain to me why there's all that hatred towards Rogue One?

 

 

That butchery of the Force Theme, for one, it's pretty much unforgivable

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The transition in Jurassic World's end credits, from Williams' JP theme on piano to Giacchino's theme, is one of the most awkward transitions I've ever heard.

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2 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Can someone explain to me why there's all that hatred towards Rogue One?

 

Whenever I get the chance to voice my opinion on Rogue One, I love just playing the first minute of The Master Switch for them. 30 seconds of the exact same sound followed by another 30 seconds of a slightly denser version of that same sound. Can you imagine somebody like Williams or Powell ever doing something like this?

 

There are still parts of the score that I like, but it's something that is far too grating to listen to in full. 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

For example?

 

This is the kinda crappy one, mainly 0:48-49. It's whatever but I definitely remember going euhhh the very first time I heard it. Just....choppy and unmusical.

 

 

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Just now, mrbellamy said:

 

This is the kinda crappy one, mainly 0:48-49. It's whatever but I definitely remember going euhhh the very first time I heard it. Just....choppy and unmusical.

 

 

haha

as if someone grabbed a cartoon elephant by his nose

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I'll have to give that a listen in the morning then.

 

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Haven't heard the non-Williams Jaws scores.

 

Jaws 3-D is terrific, like a 70s Williams/Goldsmith disaster score featuring the shark motif!

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5 hours ago, Jay said:

I don't hate it, I just find it boring.  I and I love all of Giaccino's other big blockbustery scores


It doesn't help that 2016 also saw us getting scores like Doctor Strange and Star Trek Beyond from Giacchino, both of which I find to be far superior. 

 

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2 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

 

This is the kinda crappy one, mainly 0:48-49. It's whatever but I definitely remember going euhhh the very first time I heard it. Just....choppy and unmusical.

 

 

 

That's exactly the passage I meant

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3 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

30 seconds of the exact same sound followed by another 30 seconds of a slightly denser version of that same sound. Can you imagine somebody like Williams or Powell ever doing something like this?

What about The Interrogation from Logan's Run by Jerry Goldsmith?

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Superman is the only form of Williams I know particularly well, so I'll fill that void.

I picked II as my least favorite because it literally is just the first score, but cheaper. Not to say its bad, since Thorne did a fine job adapting the music for the film. But there's little here to make it its own distinct entry outside of using some of the alts from the original to make it feel a bit newer. In contrast, his work on III (for as disliked as it apparently is) does much more to stand itself apart and has a few really good cues, even if some moments are fairly weak. Courage's IV manages to be a good merging both previous entries strong points.

I picked Returns as my favorite because it's the most successful entry in my eyes in expanding upon the first one. There can be arguments made about whether it really meshes well with Williams original themes, but the new thematic material works to really elevate the character of Superman in a way the previous sequels couldn't manage, likely as a result of the campier direction those took. The film itself may have diminished in quality overtime, and it's not always the easiest thing to listen to, but it remains one of those scores that have a special place in my heart.

 

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I would have preferred Richard Donner to return for this one, and perhaps bring Williams along with him. I seem to recall Donner was approached but declined (probably out of respect for Christopher Reeve). Bryan Singer clearly did not understand the character at all. Routh did a good job with what he was given, but Kate Bosworth was miscast as Lois. Spacey is, well...creepy Spacey. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing for the character. At least we got more Brando as Jor-El.

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From what I remember, Williams was actually asked to return, but alas was too busy to do so. While I do love Return's music, being more acquainted with the original score these days certainly has had me curious about what a proper 2nd entry from him would've been like.

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13 hours ago, DrTenma said:

For the least favourite I went with Superman II. Why? Because is essentially a copy-paste of the original one and, for me, that's not to adapt, is just a re-recording.

 

There are some very lovely adaptations of existing Williams material though, my favourites being the Trip to Earth that seques into a variation of the love them before sequing back, the fun variations on Luthor's theme, and the absolutely heartbreaking piece for Supes and Lois's flight home and break up. Thorne did a fantastic job on both scores.

 

On 4/7/2020 at 8:03 AM, HunterTech said:

From what I remember, Williams was actually asked to return, but alas was too busy to do so.

 

Per the liner notes on the LLL (and probably the Blue Box too, I can't recall), Williams told Ilya Salkind that he absolutely could not work with Richard Lester. It had nothing to do with being too busy. Makes sense as Lester clearly did not understand the character at all.

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Oh I need to choose my favourite to be able to vote for the least favourite. 

 

That bad is solo. J. Bond in space. Sad. Bad. 

 

Even Gia with Rogue is better, expect that pop song ending. Sad again. 

Happy Easter. 

 

Edit: They added more optios, Caravan of courage it is 

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I got around to answering my own poll.

 

i chose Superman IV as my favourite, partly due to the large number of statements of Williams themes (old and new) and the way Courage reverse engineered the themes and presented them in interesting and unusual ways.

 

Jurassic World is my least favourite adaptation due to the cut/paste nature of the thematic statements, although I very much enjoy the score on it's own merits. With Fallen Kingdom, Giacchino did a much better job in applying Williams' themes and restating them as dictated by the scenes.

 

I love the Superman thematic statement in Supergirl so chose that one for q3. Jerry quotes John, can't get much better than that.

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By expanding the original query, you're opening up a whole new can of worms. What about the SMALLVILLE TV series, for example? I'm sure there are a ton of other examples.

 

But yeah, for the third category, I chose GOBLET OF FIRE. Doyle manages to be Doyle beautifully, while only occasionally incorporating "Hedwig" in an organic manner. I can't say the same for the Hoopers and Desplats. The SUPERGIRL quote is too tiny to be counted, IMO, just as with Elfman's JUSTICE LEAGUE. CARAVAN OF COURAGE (and BATTLE OF ENDOR, for that matter) are cute scores where Peter Bernstein gets to play around with the Williams idiom a bit, but it lacks the focus and stylistic consistency of the Doyle, IMO.

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7 hours ago, Thor said:

What about the SMALLVILLE TV series, for example? I'm sure there are a ton of other examples.

 

Wait, Smallville quotes Williams? I did not know that.

 

7 hours ago, Thor said:

just as with Elfman's JUSTICE LEAGUE. CARAVAN OF COURAGE (and BATTLE OF ENDOR, for that matter) are cute scores where Peter Bernstein gets to play around with the Williams idiom a bit, but it lacks the focus and stylistic consistency of the Doyle, IMO.

 

Ooh, I forgot about Justice League, let me fix that quickly.

 

7 hours ago, Thor said:

But yeah, for the third category, I chose GOBLET OF FIRE. Doyle manages to be Doyle beautifully, while only occasionally incorporating "Hedwig" in an organic manner. I can't say the same for the Hoopers and Desplats.

 

I like the Hedwig statement in the opening cue, but find the other one rather meandering and uninspired. Hooper's Hedwig statement in the train travelling sequence is much better IMHO.

 

7 hours ago, Thor said:

The SUPERGIRL quote is too tiny to be counted

 

Nope, it's not. The album credits even tell us so ;)

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2 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Wait, Smallville quotes Williams? I did not know that.

 

Yes. When Chris Reeve guest starred on the show:

 

 

Same applies to the "Mystery of the Blues" episode of YOUNG INDIANA JONES, which starred Harrison Ford, and had a couple of appearances of "Raiders", if memory serves. Can't remember if LOIS & CLARK ever referenced Williams. It would make sense, though, since the show's composer Jay Gruska was Williams' son-in-law at the time (or shortly before).

 

But I just now noticed that you don't count TV, so the point is moot, I guess.

 

Quote

Nope, it's not. The album credits even tell us so ;)

 

Yes, it technically qualifies, but I don't count it among the others that use the themes more than once, and in various permutations.

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On 4/8/2020 at 2:33 AM, DrTenma said:

I went with Superman: Returns as my favourite. Solo is close, but I feel Ottman deserves more credit for that great score and I absolutely love every single track there. He took Williams themes and created something almost as great as the original score.

 

I really should revisit that score. Haven't heard it in years, but I remember loving it.

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1 minute ago, moi said:

 

More homophonic action writing? So he is better than John?

 

I remember you don't read music/scores? Real expert. 

 

It is actually bad/sad Bond music, ruined the magic mr. John Towner Williams for the Star Wars universe. 

 

I love the Solo theme John composed, that is it. 

giphy.webp

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