Popular Post filmmusic 1,848 Posted March 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2022 I have listened to 20-30 drama scores for recent movies (last decade - and I don't mean only Hollywood ones) in the past few weeks, and whereas there is much care for orchestration and texture, I don't see any strong thematic identity, meaning easily remembered themes with a beginning a middle and an end, but not simplistic ones. If there are themes (and not small motifs or textures), they are very simple lines just being there for the sake of harmony. I guess Williams's and Goldsmith's excel in that field is not accidental. Maybe action and fantasy movies have one (a thematic identity I mean)? I don't know, I haven't listened to any. What are your thoughts on the matter? Am I the only one that doesn't see it? bored, Andy, Ricard and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bellosh 3,442 Posted March 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2022 one of the main reasons why I don't listen or even bother to check out newer scores. so many are just incredibly uninteresting to me, thematically. Manakin Skywalker, Fabulin, Andy and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,163 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I had only marginal interest in John Barry until recently. His long lined melodies are the exact opposite of what you're describing, and I'm enjoying his methods of doing his own thing rather than synch points in the action. I think the modern vacuum you're commenting on has made this type of melody even more appealing to me such that I am craving it and searching out past works I might have ignored. MikeH and 1977 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GerateWohl 4,412 Posted March 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2022 To bring a positive example, I found, when I listened to Agengers Endgame, that Alan Silvstri developed for the Avengers series a quite good repertoire of strong themes. Apart from that, this texture and sound over strong melodies and themes is a development that you can see as well in Pop and Rock music. Switch on the radio and look for a strong melody in a pop or rock song from the past ten years. Of course they exist, but you really have to search for it like for a needle in the haystack. Edmilson, JNHFan2000 and Andy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNHFan2000 2,974 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 I think it's not fair to say that score with thematic identities don't excist anymore. Just a few examples from the last 4 years: Masters Of The Universe: Revelation - Bear McCreary Jungle Cruise - James Newton Howard Venom: Let There Be Carnage - Marco Beltrami The Last Duel - Harry Gregson-Williams The King's Man - Matthew Margeson & Dominic Lewis Animal Crackers - Bear McCreary Enola Holmes - Daniel Pemberton Wonder Woman 1984 - Hans Zimmer How To Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World - John Powell Godzilla: King Of The Monsters - Bear McCreary Marriage Story - Randy Newman Black Panther - Ludwig Göransson The Mummy - Brian Tyler Outlander series - Bear McCreary I might have a different idea of scores with a thematic identity, but it is not gone in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,137 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 There were too many themes, they had to cut a few. enderdrag64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 " Where is the melody" - Richard Strauss upon hearing Claude Debussy's music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,492 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Not every movie needs 6 different themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Bespin said: Not every movie needs 6 different themes. Yeah , Johnny! 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,163 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Bespin said: Not every movie needs 6 different themes. No, but just one theme that goes somewhere and resolves in a satisfying way can work wonderfully, like the versatile Last Starfighter theme by Craig Safan. (Although there are a few other minor themes in that film) filmmusic and Ricard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,492 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 Some directors pay to have a "non-John Williams-like score". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,163 Posted March 5, 2022 Share Posted March 5, 2022 That's very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 " I'm the director! You will NOT upstage me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,163 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 How many themes in Superman The Movie? Whatever it is, that's how many themes every score should have. Bellosh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,510 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 2 hours ago, Bespin said: Some directors pay to have a "non-John Williams-like score". Nolan, Villeneuve, Snyder, Greengrass and a lot of indie directors prefer their scores as far from Williams as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bored 314 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 2 hours ago, bruce marshall said: " Where is the melody" - Richard Strauss upon hearing Claude Debussy's music You're going to find a way to sneak in a Debussy reference on every discussion about melody aren't you? bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 1 hour ago, superultramegaa said: You're going to find a way to sneak in a Debussy reference on every discussion about melody aren't you? If i can. 😎 I.miss James Horner. Even if ' his' themes weren't always HIS😣 they were memorable. For Superultra: Bernard Herrmann was criticized for not writing themes or melodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 699 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Was thinking about this the other day, outside of Marvel and Star Wars stuff Disney has been pumping out, there doesn't seem to be a lot of movies from the last few years with a stand out theme. Not every film needs multiple themes but the majority of non franchise film's really seem to be lacking any thematic music, or at least anything that really gets discussed. But then again I haven't seen many non franchise film's from the last few years so could just be projecting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bored 314 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 1 hour ago, bruce marshall said: For Superultra: Bernard Herrmann was criticized for not writing themes or melodies. Those critics must have had lunch with the same people who nominated The Shining (1980) for razzies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 2 hours ago, bruce marshall said: I.miss James Horner. Even if ' his' themes weren't always HIS 😣 they were memorable. 10 hours ago, Hedji said: I had only marginal interest in John Barry until recently. His long lined melodies are the exact opposite of what you're describing, and I'm enjoying his methods of doing his own thing rather than synch points in the action. I think the modern vacuum you're commenting on has made this type of melody even more appealing to me such that I am craving it and searching out past works I might have ignored. I'm a member a little more extreme into melody than most. Got to love Uematsu, Kondo, narrative settings that are just begging for long characteristic melodies. It's harder to find this in movies. Not much of a gamer either, just always listen to game music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I still can't believe adults ask for autographs! " Oh Mr Horner, I'm you're biggest fan! Will you please sign my LLL limited edition TITANIC box set"? 😒 Jurassic Shark and GerateWohl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,137 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Bespin said: Not every movie needs 6 different themes. Sometimes, five is sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,357 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 New generations, different tastes. Themes or melodies are associated with "That's the old school music my parents like." Each generation needs its own identity. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jurassic Shark 12,137 Posted March 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2022 Soon, they'll drop harmony and rhythm as well. filmmusic, enderdrag64, bored and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oomoog the Ecstatic 314 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothless 964 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 A ton of reasons: • More directors like when the music is barely there. Their movie should work without it. • Sound design-y scores are way easier to cut, past (and butcher) as the movie is getting re cut infinitely. • There is a trend of such scores. • It sometimes requires less musicians in an orchestra. •etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,412 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I heard this multiple times before. Modern composers would be able to write brillant remarkable themes instantly, but they are asked by directors and producers not to do so. That is why they don't. Something in me resists to believe that. I would rather believe a statement like "Under these lousy working conditions with that little payment I am not willing to waste my best musical ideas." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Elfman probably saves his best themes for his concert works..... GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephariel 453 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: I heard this multiple times before. Modern composers would be able to write brillant remarkable themes instantly, but they are asked by directors and producers not to do so. That is why they don't. Something in me resists to believe that. I would rather believe a statement like "Under these lousy working conditions with that little payment I am not willing to waste my best musical ideas." Neither one is true. I don't think there are that many composers who can write brilliant themes and I don't think conditions has anything to do with it. I think: 1. Art directors prefer their movies to ooze intellectualism and that means unconventional music. 2. Action movies are now dominated by CGI and superhuman feats and having music in action scenes are becoming less and less important to reel in the audience. I can't count how many of these superhero films and sci-fi epics where the music is buried in the mix. 3. Composers just want to do something different to create their own voice. With that said, there are still plenty of themes left in Hollywood and outside of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,318 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I predict a resurgence in interest of John Barry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,412 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 35 minutes ago, Mephariel said: 3. Composers just want to do something different to create their own voice. Yes. There are so many composers writing and having written good music. I do something different than that. Jurassic Shark and Fabulin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,137 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 29 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: Yes. There are so many composers writing and having written good music. I do something different than that. Nah, you didn't. GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephariel 453 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 43 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: Yes. There are so many composers writing and having written good music. I do something different than that. Yeah, that is how you break into the industry because "good" music is dictated by the market. You carve your own lane. Daniel Pemberton is a good example. I never understand his music and frankly, I rarely have any of his scores in the top 10 of my list each year. His music is so far from the 90s titans like Williams and Horner. But I understand why he has appeal. His music is very unique to him, but also doesn't have that conventional structure. He clearly has good musical foundation, so a prospect director wouldn't be stuck with a Mica Levi type score. Pemberton has the right combination of being eccentric, but accessible. That puts him in a great position to score all types of films. In the past five years, he worked with Ridley Scott, Aaron Sorkin, and done art films like Steve Jobs. But his also doing animated films like Spider-Man. Meanwhile, you have an artist like George Kallis, who can write a sweeping orchestral piece as good as anyone and yet, he is still waiting for his breakout moment. Film music no different than any other product. After decades and decades, everything is saturated. Everyone loves ramen, but what if your one is organic? Or Mexican inspired? There are a lot of traditionally "good" composers and "good" sound designers these days. Somewhere between those two pillars is probably where a new composer's lane resides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Steve Jobs is not an art film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 Well, whatever it is, it's clearly Pemberton's best score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I like several scores of him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,163 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 5 hours ago, bruce marshall said: I predict a resurgence in interest of John Barry! 20 hours ago, Hedji said: I had only marginal interest in John Barry until recently. His long lined melodies are the exact opposite of what you're describing, and I'm enjoying his methods of doing his own thing rather than synch points in the action. I think the modern vacuum you're commenting on has made this type of melody even more appealing to me such that I am craving it and searching out past works I might have ignored. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bored 314 Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 6 hours ago, GerateWohl said: I would rather believe a statement like "Under these lousy working conditions with that little payment I am not willing to waste my best musical ideas." I tend to believe this a bit more as well. You can kind of hear when a composer doesn't really give a shit about the project they're writing for at times. Examples that sound this way to me are Steve Jablonsky's score for Battleship, or Zimmer in Pirates 4, where his new material felt uninspired, and most of the score was a repeat of other tracks from the series. Though sometimes they do try hard despite their disinterest in the film. To go back to the previous two examples, Jablonsky turned in a fairly decent monster movie score for D-War / Dragon Wars, despite his hinting in interviews that he thought it was a bad movie, and I recall Zimmer encouraging his crew to have some fun with a score to a film none of them really believed in. It might have been King Arthur, but I don't know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,848 Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 On 05/03/2022 at 11:17 PM, JNHFan2000 said: I think it's not fair to say that score with thematic identities don't excist anymore. Just a few examples from the last 4 years: Masters Of The Universe: Revelation - Bear McCreary Jungle Cruise - James Newton Howard Venom: Let There Be Carnage - Marco Beltrami The Last Duel - Harry Gregson-Williams The King's Man - Matthew Margeson & Dominic Lewis Animal Crackers - Bear McCreary Enola Holmes - Daniel Pemberton Wonder Woman 1984 - Hans Zimmer How To Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World - John Powell Godzilla: King Of The Monsters - Bear McCreary Marriage Story - Randy Newman Black Panther - Ludwig Göransson The Mummy - Brian Tyler Outlander series - Bear McCreary I might have a different idea of scores with a thematic identity, but it is not gone in my opinion. So, continuing to listening to recent scores, even scores that are considered good, I still can't find any "strong" themes. I have not listened to ANY of the scores of the above list though. Could you possibly post a couple of youtube videos with timestamps, on where the themes are? I'm curious to see, if I can find that which I seek. Themes that can stand next to themes of Williams, Goldsmith, Barry etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,559 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 It depends on how extensive you search. Every year, I sample/listen to between 1500-2000 new scores, and find plenty of scores that would fit your bill, Konstantinos. But oftentimes, you have to look beyond the true and tired, i.e. the big blockbusters or the big "talking point" scores. I know, it's a lot of work, but it can ultimately be quite rewarding. Right now, for example, I'm listening to one of my runner-ups for the 2022 'best of' list, Manuel Riveiro's LIVE IS LIFE, which sounds like a blast from the melodic 90s. Stark and 1977 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,441 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 You don't heard big strong themes in the How To Train Your Dragon scores? LSH and ThePenitentMan1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNHFan2000 2,974 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 This is a playlist with suites of dkfferent themes from Masters Of The Universe. Just one example. I don't really have the time right now to do a more exstensive search. But How To Train Your Dragon 3 has a suite called "The Hidden World Suite" with the 3 new primary themes for the film. Or go listen to the theme suites from The Rings Of Power. Just a few options. And if you can't find any memorable or strong themes in there, I guess that is kinda on you and you should stick with score from the 20th century. filmmusic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,848 Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 19 minutes ago, Jay said: You don't heard big strong themes in the How To Train Your Dragon scores? I have seen only the first movie, and I haven't heard the score (or the sequels scores) outside of that. I don't remember anything though... 25 minutes ago, Thor said: and find plenty of scores that would fit your bill, Konstantinos Really? I'm listening to scores too outside of the Hollywood blockbusters (after all, I'm mostly interested in dramas), but I hear more minimalistic thematic ideas, not themes based on the classical form. Anyway, the last strong theme I can remember is the Korzeniowski theme for A Single Man (2009). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,559 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 8 minutes ago, filmmusic said: Really? I'm listening to scores too outside of the Hollywood blockbusters (after all, I'm mostly interested in dramas), but I hear more minimalistic thematic ideas, not themes based on the classical form. Anyway, the last strong theme I can remember is the Korzeniowski theme for A Single Man (2009). I can give you many examples. Take a listen to the score I mentioned in my last post, for example. But first, I need to chart exactly what your preferences are; I've been wanting to do that for a while. And then I can recommend from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,441 Posted February 4, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 4, 2023 11 minutes ago, filmmusic said: I have seen only the first movie, and I haven't heard the score (or the sequels scores) outside of that. I don't remember anything though... The opening cue from the first film alone is full of strong memorable themes LSH, filmmusic and toothless 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,848 Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 39 minutes ago, Thor said: Take a listen to the score I mentioned in my last post, for example. I listened to the whole score. I didn't find what I was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNHFan2000 2,974 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 If you name A Single Man as the last score with a strong theme for you, you might want to check out otger scores by Korzeniowski. Romeo & Juliet & Penny Dreadful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,848 Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 A just quick very basic list of 80s-90s themes that I consider great: John Williams: 90% of his themes (and I don't mean only main themes) Jerry Goldsmith: main themes from Supergirl, Star Trek, Russia House, First Blood, Poltergeist, Omen (Ave Satani)(Oops, this is a 70s film), King Solomon's Mines, Basic instinct, Chinatown (same here, 70s film), Total Recall James Horner: Love theme from Braveheart, American Tail theme, Willow theme, Krull I'm sure there are others, can't pinpoint them right now John Barry: John Dunbar theme, Out of Africa Elmer Bernstein: Age of Innocence Alan Silvestri: Who framed Roger Rabbit (Valiant & Valiant), Back to the future, The Bodyguard theme Patrick Doyle: Love theme from Frankenstein, Estella's theme from Great Expectations George Fenton: Shadowlands theme Randy Newman: Avalon theme Danny Elfman: Batman theme, Catwoman theme, Penguin's theme, Sommersby, Edward Scissorshands Basil Poledouris: Conan the barbarian love theme, Riders of Doom Andrea Morricone: Love theme from Cinema Paradiso Ennio Morricone: Cinema Paradiso theme, Sicilian Clan theme, Metello, Gabriel's oboe from The Mission Vangelis: 1492 theme Gabriel Yared: English Patient theme, Camile Claudel love theme Jean Claude Petit: Cyrano theme Ryuichi Sakamoto: Sheltering Sky theme, Wuthering Heights theme, Last Emperor theme, Little Buddha main theme Christopher Young: Murder in the First theme Joe Hisaishi: Princess Mononoke theme I hope you can get an idea what I'm looking for in recent film scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSH 969 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Jay said: You don't heard big strong themes in the How To Train Your Dragon scores? Let's face it, pretty much everything Powell does is very strong thematically. Gabriel Bezerra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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