The Most Meh/Average Film that JW Turns Into a Blockbuster/Classic With His Music Alone?

[Mr. Gitz 85]

So we all know every film is instantly improved when the maestro works his magic.

 

But what film in his filmography does he take from a middling, average film into a blockbuster/classic with his music alone? 

 

My vote might be controversial but I’m thinking of what the alternative would’ve been, because the director has mentioned it, and JW’s score elevates this movie so much there’s no way it would’ve been as huge of a hit. No way. And it’s easy to forget now just how big this movie was at the time. 

 

I'm talking, of course, about Home Alone. And it’s sequel.

 

Now I’m not saying it’s his best score. That would be insane. But it certainly takes what easily could’ve, would’ve and was suppose to be, a standard Bruce Boughton score, and elevates it into an all time holiday classic. That main title? Like…how does he manage to get it perfect every friggin time?

 

“Oh you need a theme for a shark that’s barely in the movie? Sure no prob.”
“Oh you need an Alien to fly a bike? I can help with that.”

“Oh you want to do a sci fi fairy tale with space wizards? John’s got you covered, baby.”

“You want me to help make sure the audience believes Superman can fly? Psscht. I thought you had a challenge for me”

“Dinosaurs in a theme park? Hey, just give me a scene with a helicopter & I’ll do the rest.”

“You need a theme for the Harry Potter trailer? How about I give you a theme for the owl instead”

“You want this laser sword fight to feel as if destiny hangs in the balance, and you want me to give it a kick ass name too? Sure. But only if I can make it the most epic fuckin choral chant ever recorded by a human being” 

 

Now don’t get me wrong I’m not saying Home Alone is bad. It’s got John Hughes, Joe Pesci, Catherine O’Hara and John Candy for Christ sakes but there is no way, and I mean NO WAY, in hell that Home Alome makes almost 300 million at the box office without JW’s magic. 

 

[Bespin 8,483]

Hook

The Lost World

The Terminal

 

[Brónach 1,302]

no mediocrity can be fixed with music

[bollemanneke 3,349]

I really don't know about Home Alone. I know CC has said it and all, but honestly... how many casual filmgoers would actually agree with that statement? It's not like we all watch it every year because of the score. I think. As for the sequel, it has many problems that the score can't begin to compensate. One of the problems IS the score's underused but brilliant new material.

[Smeltington 1,440]

There are probably going to be some controversial opinions in this thread, and mine is that Close Encounters wouldn't really have enough going for it if it didn't have Williams' score.

 

1 minute ago, bollemanneke said:

One of the problems IS the score's underused but brilliant new material.

 

You mean one of the problems is the amount of rehashed material?

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

There was a similar thread recently, about movies being "saved" by the score. I don't know if we agreed on much.

 

As far as 'Home Alone', I doubt that the average moviegoer paid much attention to the music. Macaulay Culkin's cuteness was the magic ingredient.

[Thor 7,508]

HOME ALONE? CLOSE ENCOUNTERS? In what universe are these considered "meh/average" movies? They're CLASSICS, and would have worked perfectly fine without John Williams too, even if his scores obviously lift them even further.

 

For better examples of poor or mediocre films that John Williams lifts considerably with his music, look to titles like FITZWILLY, JANE EYRE, NOT WITH MY WIFE YOU DON'T, HEIDI, BLACK SUNDAY, DRACULA, THE FURY, HEARTBEEPS, SPACE CAMP, FAR & AWAY, ANGELA'S ASHES and several more. None are lifted to blockbuster/classic status, probably (I don't think a musical score is able to do that), but enough to be decent viewing experiences.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

I understand the question rather in the direction "movies nobody would talk about today anymore if the wouldn't have a score by John Williams".

 

And into that category falls most of his work in the 1960s, I would say.

 

But none of his Spielberg scores. Spielberg is a trademark of itself.

 

27 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Hook

The Lost World

The Terminal

Still I subscribe to these as in these cases the music is the strongest element and the movies would probably at least try to be forgotten.

 

And I am not sure, if people would still remember Superman the motion picture, if it hadn't a score by Williams.

Also "Dracula" and "Monsigniore" would probably vanished form our conciousness, if it hadn't that superb score by Williams.

[Edmilson 7,466]

The only people who actually remember movies like Jane Eyre, The Fury, Dracula, Monsignor, Far & Away, Spacecamp and such are us Williams fans. Otherwise, had they had a mediocre score by some unknown composer, no one would talk about them in 2023 (unless those people obssessed with oddities from the past).

 

And I guess this is more true for the older movies in his filmography than the new ones. Despite stuff like The Patriot, Stepmom, The Terminal, etc., not being classics, some people still have fond memories about catching them on cable or DVD or whatever. It will take a little while before they fade out from public consciousness like 78 Dracula or The Eiger Sanction.

[Smeltington 1,440]

12 minutes ago, Thor said:

HOME ALONE? CLOSE ENCOUNTERS? In what universe are these considered "meh/average" movies? They're CLASSICS, and would have worked perfectly fine without John Williams too, even if his scores obviously lift them even further.

 

I don't feel like Close Encounters has reached across generations in the same way as Jaws, ET, and Indy, regardless of its reception at the time, or its status among film buffs. Of course we can argue about what a "classic" is, but that's my perception. And the movie relies on the music in a very direct way, with the line blurring between score and diegetic music, so the success of the film owes even more to the success of the music than most films do.

 

13 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

And I am not sure, if people would still remember Superman the motion picture, if it hadn't a score by Williams.

 

 

This is a great point. The movie is probably too campy to have endured this long if it weren't for certain memorable elements like Williams' theme, and Reeve in the title role.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

The thing is, movies like The Patriot, Stepmom and The Terminal had stars. The Patriot will be remembered as a Mel Gibson movie. The Terminal was a Spielberg/Hanks vehicle. Seven Years in Tibet will be remembered as a Brad Pitt movie.

But Monsigniore? It had Christopher Reeve, but he was apart from Superman hardly recognized. And Dracula? It had Laurence Olivier as van Helsing, but who remembers that Dracula actor who was from Broadway?

[Tom 4,661]

44 minutes ago, Brónach said:

no mediocrity can be fixed with music

Cases in point: TLJ and TRoS.  

[Bellosh 3,419]

The Terminal

Dial of Destiny

[bollemanneke 3,349]

33 minutes ago, Thor said:

HOME ALONE? CLOSE ENCOUNTERS? In what universe are these considered "meh/average" movies? They're CLASSICS, and would have worked perfectly fine without John Williams too, even if his scores obviously lift them even further.

 

For better examples of poor or mediocre films that John Williams lifts considerably with his music, look to titles like FITZWILLY, JANE EYRE, NOT WITH MY WIFE YOU DON'T, HEIDI, BLACK SUNDAY, DRACULA, THE FURY, HEARTBEEPS, SPACE CAMP, FAR & AWAY, ANGELA'S ASHES and several more. None are lifted to blockbuster/classic status, probably (I don't think a musical score is able to do that), but enough to be decent viewing experiences.

To be fair, any score would have elevated Jane Eyre, regardless of how great JW's is. As for Far and Away... you're probably right. It's an okay movie that becomes good because of the music for me.

[BB-8 3,478]

Tempted to say the low-budget Star Wars 1977, because if that film would have received a thin unemotional percussive synth score it would never have had such an initial impact and lasting effect.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I remember watching The Patriot a few years ago on Netflix. After it finished I had two thoughts:

1. "Wow, that was pretty bad!"
2. "John Williams' music is AMAZING!"

I still think it's a crap movie that was given the gift of an astounding score that made it somewhat watchable. I love David Arnold but I don't think even he would've been capable of saving that movie. You needed a composer like Williams to make the movie, well, less laughable and cringeworthy.

 

People like Goldsmith, Horner, JNH, are also capable of saving shit movies. Dinosaur was one of my favorite movies growing up but as an adult I recognize that it doesn't exactly have memorable characters or an involving plot - just JNH's magnificent score.

[BB-8 3,478]

 

Would also like to suggest Space Camp.

[Thor 7,508]

11 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I remember watching The Patriot a few years ago on Netflix. After it finished I had two thoughts:

1. "Wow, that was pretty bad!"
2. "John Williams' music is AMAZING!"

I still think it's a crap movie that was given the gift of an astounding score that made it somewhat watchable. I love David Arnold but I don't think even he would've been capable of saving that movie. You needed a composer like Williams to make the movie, well, less laughable and cringeworthy.

 

People like Goldsmith, Horner, JNH, are also capable of saving shit movies. Dinosaur was one of my favorite movies growing up but as an adult I recognize that it doesn't exactly have memorable characters or an involving plot - just JNH's magnificent score.

 

I totally disagree. I think THE PATRIOT is an amazing film. Stupendously gorgeous cinematography by Caleb Deschanel, intense and viscerally raw performances by both Gibson and Ledger, a deliciously evil antagonist in Jason Isaacs, epic battle scenes, riveting storytelling. Williams' score is good (albeit slightly autopilot), but it does in no way lift the film. It stays there alongside it, adding to the generally high level of the film's components.

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

5 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

I don't feel like Close Encounters has reached across generations in the same way as Jaws, ET, and Indy, regardless of its reception at the time, or its status among film buffs.

To be fair, Close Encounters wasn't quite the phenomenon the others were, and quietly left the public imagination and cultural zeitgeist after the 1980 Special Edition release. No sequels or prequels, no new merch, no theme park ride, etc. It was just referenced on The Simpsons from time to time...

 

 

Yeah, it's mostly only people of a certain age who remember it, and it looks like they didn't sit their kids down to watch it the same way they did with Star Wars, Indy, and E.T.

[Bellosh 3,419]

Jaws 2 --- while I enjoy it, mostly because of Roy Scheider....

 

in no world does that film deserve a score that good

[King Mark 3,631]

Heartbeeps!

[Edmilson 7,466]

What about the prequels? Anakin and Padme's romance in Attack of the Clones would've been even harder to take seriously without Williams' Across the Stars.

 

He had to work extra hard to make people not to cringe even more with that movie.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'd argue it's his most prestigious and award winning  scores , like Star Wars, Close Encounters ,Jaws, Raiders of the Last Ark,Jurassic Park  and E.T. that saved these movies from being average at best and tanking at the box office.

 

Imagine any of these films without JW music and you haven't got much

[Thor 7,508]

14 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Imagine any of these films without JW music and you haven't got much

 

That's just the Williams fanboy in you talking. All of those films would be great even without Williams' scores. His music, however, was the icing on the cake.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

3 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said:

Now don’t get me wrong I’m not saying Home Alone is bad. It’s got John Hughes, Joe Pesci, Catherine O’Hara and John Candy for Christ sakes but there is no way, and I mean NO WAY, in hell that Home Alome makes almost 300 million at the box office without JW’s magic. 

 

Part-time bubble-burster here - I wouldn't agree with this. Home Alone is funny, heartwarming and just damn good comedy which got a very good score, but had John Debney provided his usual brand of generic, functional comedy music, I don't think the masses would've noticed.

 

I'm not dampening the stupendous impact JW has had on scoring, but I'd really push back at any idea that the BO of his films are notably improved because of his scores.

[Brónach 1,302]

24 minutes ago, King Mark said:

I'd argue it's his most prestigious and award winning  scores , like Star Wars, Close Encounters ,Jaws, Raiders of the Last Ark,Jurassic Park  and E.T. that saved these movies from being average at best and tanking at the box office.

 

Imagine any of these films without JW music and you haven't got much

 

average at best? close encounters? jaws? e.t.? what?

[Edmilson 7,466]

9 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Part-time bubble-burster here - I wouldn't agree with this. Home Alone is funny, heartwarming and just damn good comedy which got a very good score, but had John Debney provided his usual brand of generic, functional comedy music, I don't think the masses would've noticed.

 

I'm not dampening the stupendous impact JW has had on scoring, but I'd really push back at any idea that the BO of his films are notably improved because of his scores.

Home Alone with a generic comedy score by, say, John Debney, Bruce Broughton or Randy Edelman probably would've still been a box office hit. But it certainly wouldn't have been as good as it is.

 

And the same goes for E.T. Williams' music made it so much better than it would've been with a less iconic score, even though in 1982 the average quality of Hollywood composers was much higher than today (imagine E.T. with a Lorne Balfe score...)

[Mr. Gitz 85]

7 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Part-time bubble-burster here - I wouldn't agree with this. Home Alone is funny, heartwarming and just damn good comedy which got a very good score, but had John Debney provided his usual brand of generic, functional comedy music, I don't think the masses would've noticed.

 

I'm not dampening the stupendous impact JW has had on scoring, but I'd really push back at any idea that the BO of his films are notably improved because of his scores.

Huge disagree. 
 

How many Bruce Boughton movies are the top grossing movies of all time when they were released? 
 

Now let’s look at John Williams.

 

Word of mouth was a huge part of Home Alone’s success. And I think Williams music has a subconscious affect on audiences. It’s warm, inviting, loving. Playful. Memorable. 
 

This may seem controversial but, I mean, you can’t argue with the results. I think a lot of the success of Star Wars, Jaws, E.T. Is because of the music. 
 

People are humming those tunes when they leave the theatre. It makes everything memorable. Like a call and response. This isn’t to say these movies aren’t great on their own but anyone who thinks Star Wars becomes a pop culture phenomenon with a Synth score I don’t think is paying the proper due to the audiences relationship with film music. 
 

I don’t think it’s any accident that the top films of all time prior to 2008ish, They all had banger scores. And a lot of them, hell, most of them, are John Williams. 
 

Especially when it comes to whether or not a movie has staying power. The music is a massive part of the sense memory people have with movies. 
 

[Sandor 797]

Although I enjoy the topic, I honestly don't think any film was a blockbuster or classic just because of John Williams' score.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

At least I remember watching movies thinking, this movie deserved a better score. Never occured to me watching a movie scored by Williams. 

Strangely happened to me multiple times watching movies scored by Hans Zimmer, for example Black Rain, Gladiator or Batman vs Superman. But that's probably just an accident. 

[Brónach 1,302]

Dune Part 1 would be elevated with a better score.

[Edmilson 7,466]

8 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Strangely happened to me multiple times watching movies scored by Hans Zimmer, for example Black Rain, Gladiator or Batman vs Superman. But that's probably just an accident. 

Zack Snyder movies deserve exactly the score they got.

[Tom 4,661]

Not a movie, but Amazing Stories: The Mission is pretty damn epic, and I think the music makes it so.  

[Mr. Gitz 85]

1 minute ago, Sandor said:

Although I enjoy the topic, I honestly don't any film was turned into a blockbuster or classic just because of John Williams' score.

I think you are underestimating the affect score can have on an audience. 
 

Let’s look at Home Alone. John Hughes had many films made, many of them were better reviewed, many of them holiday themed. None of them did Home Alone type business. 
 

You go down the line on that film and the only person that had that level of success? John Williams. Consistently. 
 

MC had many movies come out after Home Alone. None of them were majorly successes. 
 

Look at the relationship between music and movies in the 1970s/1980s. Most of the biggest movies have memorable scores or music. 
 

Star Wars, Indiana Jones, E.T. Ghostbusters(Ray Parker Jr theme song), Back to the Future, Batman. 
 Beverly Hills Cop is the only movie that doesn’t fit that pattern but that was big due to Eddie Murphy. 
 

I’m not suggesting those films were big simply because of the score, but that it plays are larger role than some seem to think. 
 

Look at Titanic. The theme song and the score were huge. Huge. 
 

Now as me move into the more modern era I think that becomes less and less of a phenomenon. But back in the day? I think it played a large role. Having a great movie too helps. But a great score is what seals the deal. 

 

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

3 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Star Wars

 

[Edmilson 7,466]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Gitz said:

 Beverly Hills Cop is the only movie that doesn’t fit that pattern but that was big due to Eddie Murphy. 

BHC did have a major musical hit:

 

 

[Jilal 569]

I'd say Beverly Hills Cop has a pretty iconic score, or main theme at least. Maybe that's because it was adapted into that obnoxious eurodance classic.

[Datameister 2,044]

A great score will elevate a mediocre film. A great film will elevate a mediocre score. Sometimes the effects are very significant. But I'm hard-pressed to think of a case where music has singlehandedly elevated a movie to being a classic.

 

Home Alone is vastly enriched by the genuine warmth, the melancholy touches, and the clever mickey mousing that JW brought to the table. It's absolutely a better film for it. But it would still be entertaining with a lesser score.

 

Star Wars reached mythic heights in '77 with the help of JW's exquisitely over-written score. It launched a love for movie music in countless viewers, myself included. But the film still would have been a hit with a small, non-descript score. And on the flip side, the prequels and sequels benefit enormously from JW's continuing excellence, but those films' flaws can never be truly masked by his writing.

[Edmilson 7,466]

3 minutes ago, Datameister said:

A great film will elevate a mediocre score.

Do you have an example of that? Because I don't think a movie, no matter how good it is, can make its shitty score great. Look at last year's Best Original Score Winner All Quiet on the Western Front. A good war movie whose qualities don't compensate the fact that its score is garbage. 

 

Actually, I think the opposite may be true. Look at the countless action movies that came out over the last few years with those abominable generic "Bourne + The Dark Knight + Inception" copycat scores.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

17 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Do you have an example of that? Because I don't think a movie, no matter how good it is, can make its shitty score great.

Gladiator 

[Bellosh 3,419]

i preface this with saying i absolutely love the film and don't truly believe it to be meh or average....

 

but in terms of how AMAZING the score is compared to what the film is on a critical level....

 

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom

[Bayesian 1,363]

2 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Do you have an example of that? Because I don't think a movie, no matter how good it is, can make its shitty score great. Look at last year's Best Original Score Winner All Quiet on the Western Front. A good war movie whose qualities don't compensate the fact that its score is garbage. 

Or look at the latest Mission Impossible, a very decent actioner whose score is a godawful abomination.

[Datameister 2,044]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Do you have an example of that? Because I don't think a movie, no matter how good it is, can make its shitty score great. Look at last year's Best Original Score Winner All Quiet on the Western Front. A good war movie whose qualities don't compensate the fact that its score is garbage. 

 

Actually, I think the opposite may be true. Look at the countless action movies that came out over the last few years with those abominable generic "Bourne + The Dark Knight + Inception" copycat scores.

 

I really like The Prestige as a film. I consider the score pretty dull; I would never listen to it on its own. But in the context of the film, I start to get some positive feelings about it. Sorta.

 

At the same time, yes, I'm sure a better score would further elevate the film. And I agree that a film's quality can never turn a shitty score into a great one, much like a score's quality can never turn a shitty film into a great one. The two things affect each other, but not that much.

[Edmilson 7,466]

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

The two things affect each other, but not that much.

That's probably the truth. Still, I usually see more crappy movies becoming at least watchable due to a great score than an amazing movie making its otherwise shitty score better. But I guess that's on me. After all, I'm more of a film music fan than a movie fan.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

11 hours ago, King Mark said:

I'd argue it's his most prestigious and award winning  scores , like Star Wars, Close Encounters ,Jaws, Raiders of the Last Ark,Jurassic Park  and E.T. that saved these movies from being average at best and tanking at the box office.

 

Imagine any of these films without JW music and you haven't got much

 

No offense, but this is one of the stupidest things ever written on the internet.

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

13 hours ago, Bellosh said:

Jaws 2 --- while I enjoy it, mostly because of Roy Scheider....

 

in no world does that film deserve a score that good

 

11 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said:

How many Bruce Boughton movies are the top grossing movies of all time when they were released?

If Bruce Broughton, for the sake of argument here, was Spielberg's go-to composer, and was also recommended to George Lucas like Williams was, the answer would be: a lot.

 

Williams himself acknowledges that he's had a fortunate career, thanks primarily to his association with Spielberg.

 

Of course he would've had a distinguished career even if he'd never met Spielberg and Lucas, but we wouldn't be talking about him the same way we are now. Let's just say they were mutually beneficial relationships...

 

10 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said:

Beverly Hills Cop is the only movie that doesn’t fit that pattern but that was big due to Eddie Murphy.

Besides the Glenn Frey song already mentioned, Harold Faltermeyer's synth theme "Axel F" was a big hit and is synonymous with Beverly Hills Cop.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Other than Star Wars, it's definitely Home Alone.  John Williams honed in on the best qualities of the film and elevated them tenfold.  It's such an underdog type pairing, with a kind of "normal" movie that (on paper) felt out of JW's wheelhouse and even kind of beneath him but in the end it all works so well together.  

[Mr. Gitz 85]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

 

If Bruce Broughton, for the sake of argument here, was Spielberg's go-to composer, and was also recommended to George Lucas like Williams was, the answer would be: a lot.

 

Williams himself acknowledges that he's had a fortunate career, thanks primarily to his association with Spielberg.

 

Of course he would've had a distinguished career even if he'd never met Spielberg and Lucas, but we wouldn't be talking about him the same way we are now. Let's just say they were mutually beneficial relationships...

 

Besides the Glenn Frey song already mentioned, Harold Faltermeyer's synth theme "Axel F" was a big hit and is synonymous with Beverly Hills Cop.

Think of it this way. 
 

A movie trailer with catchy music, or any commercial with catchy music, is going to stay in the mind of consumers Vs a commercial without a catchy tune. The more the tune is in their mind, they more likely they are to buy the product, talk about the product with others, etc. That translates to more $. 

 

Now transfer that line of thinking to movies. How many Bruce Boughton scores are you able to recall right as you leave the theatre? Now do the same thought experiment with JW. 
 

We know the affect pleasurable music has on our endorphins. When Luke watches those twin suns setting in Star Wars? JW is technically getting you high with this sonic bliss. 

I was unaware of that particular Beverly Hills Cop piece of trivia. So I guess add it to the list. 

 

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

This is a tough topic, I feel like sometimes even we cannot disconnect our like for a movie from his music. I have to agree, I really like the premise of Close Encounters, and perhaps for its time it was something great, but I don't think it holds up, especially the directors cut. E.T. is another one, which I found just as stupid as a kid as I do now, and I thought his music was far more glorious than the film and JW outright saved that film, which I personally feel would have not been remembered.

Home Alone though is a perfect marriage. And funny enough, I have met many people who only know JW for Home Alone. Home Alone certainly would have held up without him, but I don't think it would have reached peak classic status.

There are a ton of movies that I thought were awful, but his score was great. The Robert Altman films especially. But again, some movies like Dracula kind of look stupid today, but I'm sure at the time were the real deal (interesting it is often forgotten in Dracula movie rankings, and always surprises me it gets passed over when the terrible Gary Oldman one is always remembered). Superman is another one where maybe at the time it was great, but watching it now I feel like it is pretty dumb, and another composer might have turned it into a cheap slap stick thing.

I also question would Harry Potter have originally been so huge without his music. All of the music in those films are so original and uniquely identifiable, I don't think any other composer could have pulled that off, and I think it would have left it as just a really nice movie.

[scoreman36 68]

Harry Potter was always going to be a blockbuster, and a successful franchise. Williams stamped a musical identity onto it that I don’t think anyone else could’ve done. But I don’t think the film would’ve been less successful without him. 

I’d also say that both Star Wars and Jaws were films that wouldn’t have become the blockbusters they were without Williams - not because they’re terrible films by any stretch, but you’ve got 2 genius filmmakers whose visions far outstretched the limitations of their budgets and the time in which they were made. Williams was able to look past these limitations and force us to do the same - and 2 blockbusters were born because of it.