Fugues!

[Tom 4,666]

 

 

 

 

[Faleel 5,359]

Black Sunday Fugue.

[Tom 4,666]

Fine, I will expand the poll. Is the Asteroid Field a technical fugue?   March of the Resistance seems more fugue-like than an actual fugue, so I left it out.  

[Bayesian 1,363]

Ooh, so much delicious ear candy to choose from, it's basically impossible to select just one favorite. I went for Setting the Trap because it has strong nostalgic associations from the first time I watched the scene that it was scored for. But Shark Cage Fugue and Quidditch Yr 3  are close runner-ups.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Shark Fugue!! 

[Datameister 2,044]

Setting the Trap, followed very closely by Quidditch, Third Year.

[Tom 4,666]

Watching Home Alone again this Christmas, he does such a nice job having the choir in the background sing Carol of the Bells and then Star of Bethlehem back to back.  You mind is perfectly (and somehow unknowingly) prepared for a fugue of both melodies.  

 

I don't think the Fugue for Changing Times is the best, but damn, the energy of that piece--and that climax.  Concert version now please.  

[artguy360 1,843]

If not March of the Resistance, then Quidditch Year Three. 

[Schilkeman 964]

I don't hear anything fugal in Asteroid chase. There's lots of counterpoint, but it's not a fugue.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

44 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

I don't hear anything fugal in Asteroid chase. There's lot's of counterpoint, but it's not a fugue.

Basically the same for "Quidditch, Third Year", I  think. 

[Schilkeman 964]

4 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Basically the same for "Quidditch, Third Year", I  think. 

No, there's definitely a mini fugue at 0:44, but much like Setting the Trap, it's so short it's arguable that it's a "real" fugue.

[igger6 894]

I've been wondering about the minimum requirements for a true fugue since March of the Resistance was released.  Let's see if this works like in the commercials:

 

Like a good neighbor, @Falstaft is there!

 

Maybe he'll appear out of thin air and explain fugues to us!

[Schilkeman 964]

At its most basic, it needs a subject, which is repeated in a second voice but with different pitches, known as exposition, development, and a final closing section. Some of these examples have an exposition and an then go into free counterpoint. Most of them are not long enough to have counter subjects or recapitulation, due to the needs of the film. I think Shark Cage Fugue, Black Sunday, and Fugue for Changing Times are proper fugues.

 

I think it's probably more accurate to call some of these fugal, rather than fugues.

[Thor 7,518]

Difficult choice, but I choose BLACK SUNDAY because I've always felt it's a more typical and elegant fugue than the others.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

No, there's definitely a mini fugue at 0:44, but much like Setting the Trap, it's so short it's arguable that it's a "real" fugue.

But then March of the Resistance with its mini Fugue at 1:10 would qualify as well.

 

[QuartalHarmony 543]

There's a very short (only 10-20 seconds?) but quite formally 'correct' fugue on brass interpolated seemingly quite randomly into the end of ESB (during the Falcon's escape, if memory serves), but I can't quite locate it just at the moment.

 

Ah, got it:

 

 

Agree that many of the examples above don't strike me as being fugues in any sense I understand the term.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

39 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

There's a very short (only 10-20 seconds?) but quite formally 'correct' fugue on brass interpolated seemingly quite randomly into the end of ESB (during the Falcon's escape, if memory serves), but I can't quite locate it just at the moment.

 

Ah, got it:

 

 

This is more or less just a canon form, that Williams uses quite often as some kind of echo of the first voice in the second voice, not a fugue.

Like here:

 

 

[Schilkeman 964]

Yes, Williams uses a lot of direct imitation, call and response type writing. It's a good way to fill time, or improv/vamp his way into another musical idea.

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

Oh, I thought I entered the fungus thread.

 

Anyway, I choose the most fuguey piece, Shark Cage Fugue.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

I went for Shark Cage, though Setting the Trap comes close. Is Asteroid Field a fugue?

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

If Setting the Trap counts, then certainly March of the Resistance does as well. But Asteroid Field? Why?

[GerateWohl 4,371]

By the way, as with "Fugue for Changing Times" also a non film work is incuded, maybe "Prelude and Fugue" should get added as well?

 

 

[Andy 4,141]

Voted Shark Cage.  

 

Are we confusing Asteroid Field (The first part with the Imperial March) with a scherzo instead of a fugue?

 

Someone start a scherzo poll.  Williams is the King of the Scherzo.

[Falstaft 2,132]

8 hours ago, igger6 said:

I've been wondering about the minimum requirements for a true fugue since March of the Resistance was released.  Let's see if this works like in the commercials:

 

Like a good neighbor, @Falstaft is there!

 

I've been summoned!

 

Exact definitions differ between theorists of course, but there is a pretty stable consensus concerning what's genuinely fugal, what's canonical or imitative, and what's just polyphonically busy. For a fugue, it's all about that incremental feeling. One voice introduces the fugue's main idea ("subject") in full, then another comes in repeating it while the first offers a countermelody ("answer"), and so on. Traditionally, these need to be at quite specific tonal levels -- the second either in ("real") or on ("tonal") the key of the dominant.  And back and forth it goes until all seperate contrapuntal strands are introduced, usually 3-4 voices in total. I'm simplifying a lot, though it's worth pointing out that Williams almost never writes fugues by completely by the "book." The key thing is that feeling of accretion, of rising intricacy, of one melodic subject chasing another, 

 

14 hours ago, Tom said:

Fine, I will expand the poll. Is the Asteroid Field a technical fugue?   March of the Resistance seems more fugue-like than an actual fugue, so I left it out.  

 

As breathtaking as it is, I'm afraid there's nothing fugal in the Asteroid Field. March of the Resistance's middle section includes definite but quite unconventional fugal exposition that modulates up by fifth three times, from F to D, and doesn't have a consistent countersubject. 

 

A few years ago I gave a talk on all things neo-Baroque in Williams, which included transcribing all of his fugues, fugatos, and canonic passages. It's a marvelous thing to behold. In any case, my vote is for Black Sunday. 

 

[Maestro 147]

Now THIS is primo JWFan content!

[Thor 7,518]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

By the way, as with "Fugue for Changing Times" also a non film work is incuded, maybe "Prelude and Fugue" should get added as well?

 

Should definitely be considered. A great piece!

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

58 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

Exact definitions differ between theorists of course, but there is a pretty stable consensus boundaries between what's genuinely fugal, what's canonical or imitative, and what's just polyphonically busy. For a fugue, it's all about that incremental feeling. One voice introduces the fugue's main idea ("subject") in full, then another comes in repeating it while the first offers a countermelody ("answer"), and so on. Traditionally, these need to be at quite specific tonal levels -- the second either in ("real") or on ("tonal") the key of the dominant.  And back and forth it goes until all seperate contrapuntal strands are introduced, usually 3-4 voices in total. I'm simplifying a lot, though it's worth pointing out that Williams almost never writes fugues by completely by the "book." The key thing is that feeling of accretion, of rising intricacy, of one melodic subject chasing another, 

 

How fuguey would you say the Shark Cage fugue is?

 

I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend?

[Thor 7,518]

Just now, Jurassic Shark said:

I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend?

 

Good luck. I've always thought it's one of the most difficult things to pull off; with the second or third melody line matching exactly, harmonically, with the other ones they are overlapping. (yes, yes, I know I'm speaking out of my depth here, since I'm not a musicologist, but you know what I mean). 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

19 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Good luck. I've always thought it's one of the most difficult things to pull off; with the second or third melody line matching exactly, harmonically, with the other ones they are overlapping. (yes, yes, I know I'm speaking out of my depth here, since I'm not a musicologist, but you know what I mean). 

 

I think you have to compose the melody lines simultaneously, adjusting them to fit each other. 

 

I will encode Thor OST in music and make a fugue out of it.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

I believe, the real challenge is to play the fugue with two hands and make each of the five voices really listenable.

 

And if you stay with each voice just in one key and stick to the default intervals like the dominant mentioned by Falstaft it should be managable.

 

 

[Bayesian 1,363]

1 hour ago, Falstaft said:

 

I've been summoned!

 

Exact definitions differ between theorists of course, but there is a pretty stable consensus concerning what's genuinely fugal, what's canonical or imitative, and what's just polyphonically busy. For a fugue, it's all about that incremental feeling. One voice introduces the fugue's main idea ("subject") in full, then another comes in repeating it while the first offers a countermelody ("answer"), and so on. Traditionally, these need to be at quite specific tonal levels -- the second either in ("real") or on ("tonal") the key of the dominant.  And back and forth it goes until all seperate contrapuntal strands are introduced, usually 3-4 voices in total. I'm simplifying a lot, though it's worth pointing out that Williams almost never writes fugues by completely by the "book." The key thing is that feeling of accretion, of rising intricacy, of one melodic subject chasing another, 

 

 

As breathtaking as it is, I'm afraid there's nothing fugal in the Asteroid Field. March of the Resistance's middle section includes definite but quite unconventional fugal exposition that modulates up by fifth three times, from F to D, and doesn't have a consistent countersubject. 

 

A few years ago I gave a talk on all things neo-Baroque in Williams, which included transcribing all of his fugues, fugatos, and canonic passages. It's a marvelous thing to behold. In any case, my vote is for Black Sunday. 

 

Monsieur le professeur, would you be able to share that talk with us?? Slide deck with annotated score snippets would be just darling, but we’d take talking points scribbled on a cocktail napkin if that’s all you had in your archives. I guarantee you wouldn’t find a more captivated or grateful audience!

[Loert 2,515]

My vote goes to Setting the Trap. It has the best-sounding subject.

 

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend?

 

My personal recommendation is Kent Kennan's Counterpoint. One of the best music theory books I've read, period.

 

3 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Good luck. I've always thought it's one of the most difficult things to pull off; with the second or third melody line matching exactly, harmonically, with the other ones they are overlapping.

 

It's difficult, but in my experience writing a canon (that sounds interesting) is more challenging.

[Falstaft 2,132]

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

How fuguey would you say the Shark Cage fugue is?

 

I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend?

 

Shark Cage is brilliant. The quartal organization of the subject is really nicely reflected in the Orca Theme.

 

 

I had the Kent Kennan counterpoint book as an undergrad too, and it's excellent. But really, the best teacher is Bach. Just sit down with the Well Tempered Clavier some time. Start by flagrantly copying him. You'll pick up on the technique through imitation.

 

4 hours ago, Bayesian said:

Monsieur le professeur, would you be able to share that talk with us?? Slide deck with annotated score snippets would be just darling, but we’d take talking points scribbled on a cocktail napkin if that’s all you had in your archives. I guarantee you wouldn’t find a more captivated or grateful audience!

 

Haha, my cocktail napkins are definitely not worth preserving! The whole talk isn't really fit for sharing in the state it's in. But this thread has given me a spur to revisit it and turn it into a proper article. Once I get this other big thing out of the way, it'll probably be my next JW project.

 

Oh, and here's a "Guess That Score" challenge. Can anyone place where this canonic passage from Williams comes from, and why it may be an especially appropriate use of the technique?:

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,080]

3 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

Once I get this other big thing out of the way

 

How's the book going?

[Jilal 569]

10 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

Oh, and here's a "Guess That Score" challenge. Can anyone place where this canonic passage from Williams comes from, and why it may be an especially appropriate use of the technique?:

 

 

 

Spoiler

Pulling the Can(n)on! 1:18-1:38

 

[JTN 2,036]

I wanted to vote for Shark Cage, but voted for The Asteroid Field. SC feels more like a traditional fugue, so maybe I'm changing my vote to that one. But I adore both pieces. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

14 hours ago, JTW said:

SC feels more like a traditional fugue

 

That's because Asteroid Field doesn't even belong in this poll.

 

I've always wondered if Belly of the Steal Beast was initially supposed to develop into a full fugue.

[Edmilson 7,466]

I don't even know what a fugue is.

 

What I do know is that are all great cues, whether they're true fugues or not.

[Tom 4,666]

Okay, I have eliminated The Asteroid Field (good thing that asteroids have never concerned me), and added Prelude and Fugue and March of the Resistance. For those who voted for Asteroid--vote again!

 

Edit: I love the learned discussions going on. Falstaft's remarks are just so readily instructive for the novice like me. 

 

With Asteroid field not being a fugue, is it then the case the March of the Resistance is the first in the SW canon, or am I missing something else?  

 

Perhaps I am drinking too much, but I love JWFAN.   

[Ludwig 1,120]

Late to the party, but thought I would add that there seems to be a connection between Williams' use of fugues in film and that of William Walton. The 1942 film, The First of the Few, is about the conception and construction of Britain's Spitfire fighter plane for World War II. In the scene where the Spitfire is finally being assembled, Walton writes a fugue. Now as @Falstaft rightly pointed out, a fugue is basically a texture that is built up one voice (melody line) at a time. The first voice announces the line that is the whole basis of the fugue, and is always called the "subject". Then another line enters with the same melody, as a rule transposed (usually up) by 5th to become the "answer", while the first voice continues with other material. Then another voice enters with the same melody, and so on...

 

Anyway, I lay this out again because I think this idea of gradually building up a texture from a single line nicely captures something in the process of making preparations. Things start off simply but become increasingly complex, and all the "moving parts", so to speak, need to work together for the plans to come off properly.

 

So take a look below at the way Walton does it in The First of the Few (should start at 7:51 for you). I think this is essentially how Williams uses his film fugues as well - Jaws, Black Sunday, and Home Alone. So it seems that he picked up this kind of association from Walton and really ran with it, giving it new life in key scenes from these films.

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

Nice! I've never heard the original version before.

[Faleel 5,359]

On 13/01/2024 at 5:45 PM, Tom said:

With Asteroid field not being a fugue, is it then the case the March of the Resistance is the first in the SW canon, or am I missing something else?  

 

 

Not really a fugue, but don't forget ROTJ has that bit in Shuttle Tydirium Approaches Endor around 3:16 .

[Alex 2,835]

Does “The Hunt” count as a fugue?

[Faleel 5,359]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Does “The Hunt” count as a fugue?

Don't see how it would.

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

They had some good stuff back in the day, Lauryn Hill's a helluva vocalist. 

lol?

[Alex 2,835]

10 hours ago, Faleel said:

Don't see how it would.

Yeah sorry I was thinking of something else

[Jay 37,371]

13 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

They had some good stuff back in the day, Lauryn Hill's a helluva vocalist.

 

 

[Faleel 5,359]

On 20/02/2024 at 5:53 PM, Faleel said:

Not really a fugue, but don't forget ROTJ has that bit in Shuttle Tydirium Approaches Endor around 3:16 .

Another, from Raiders: