What Makes Return of the Jedi sound the way that it does?

[Bellosh 3,811]

Cause I love it.

 

Can't simply be the recording can it? Or is it?

 

Help me out.

 

Also The Battle of Endor III is the greatest cue in star wars history.  It has the tie fighter attack theme, imperial march to Luke's theme transition and of course the sail barge fanfare.  Are you kidding me?!

[Jay 38,848]

16 hours ago, Bellosh said:

Also The Battle of Endor III is the greatest cue in star wars history

 

That's not a cue, its a track, comprised of three cues

1. 0:00-1:58 = 12M6/13M1    Space Battle
2. 1:58-4:28 = 13M2    Vader's Death
3. 4:28-end = 13M3    Through the Flames

[Bellosh 3,811]

That's the Jay I know and love!!!!

 

 😌

[Datameister 2,231]

Well, there's the composition, the performance, the recording techniques, the venue, and the various ways it's been transferred and mixed for albums and for the film. All play a role. Is there anything specifically you're referring to?

[Edmilson 8,539]

30 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Well, there's the composition, the performance, the recording techniques, the venue, and the various ways it's been transferred and mixed for albums and for the film. All play a role. Is there anything specifically you're referring to?

I don't think he's talking about the composition or performance but rather by the way it sounds - as in, vastly inferior to ANH, Superman, ESB and ROTLA, who were all JW scores with the LSO that came before it. Why TESB or Raiders sound so good and ROTJ sounds so vastly inferior to them?

 

Honestly, this is something I'd like to know myself, and I'm not even that interested on the whole minutia of recording techniques, mixing, etc.

[Bellosh 3,811]

12 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I don't think he's talking about the composition or performance but rather by the way it sounds - as in, vastly inferior to ANH, Superman, ESB and ROTLA, who were all JW scores with the LSO that came before it. Why TESB or Raiders sound so good and ROTJ sounds so vastly inferior to them?

 

Honestly, this is something I'd like to know myself, and I'm not even that interested on the whole minutia of recording techniques, mixing, etc.

 

you are right about all that....except for one thing...

 

I don't think it sounds inferior to ANH....maybe in an audiophile sense it does or 'technically' speaking in the same way one needs to accept that Raiders is technically and critically the best movie out of the 5....

 

But ROTJ is actually my favorite sounding Star Wars score.  I have no idea how to describe how it sounds!

 

 

47 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Well, there's the composition, the performance, the recording techniques, the venue, and the various ways it's been transferred and mixed for albums and for the film. All play a role. Is there anything specifically you're referring to?

 

i guess yeah you are right, but even the 3 prequels and 3 sequel trilogies all kinda sound the same at times?  it seems ANH, ESB and ROTJ all have their own sound.  i honestly apologize for not being able to say anything else besides sound, i have 0 musical knowledge.  but i love ROTJ.

[The Great Gonzales 6,048]

26 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I don't think he's talking about the composition or performance but rather by the way it sounds - as in, vastly inferior to ANH, Superman, ESB and ROTLA, who were all JW scores with the LSO that came before it. Why TESB or Raiders sound so good and ROTJ sounds so vastly inferior to them?

 

Honestly, this is something I'd like to know myself, and I'm not even that interested on the whole minutia of recording techniques, mixing, etc.

ROTJ OST 2016 mix sounds pretty close to ROTLA to my ears....

16 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

you are right about all that....except for one thing...

 

I don't think it sounds inferior to ANH....maybe in an audiophile sense it does or 'technically' speaking in the same way one needs to accept that Raiders is technically and critically the best movie out of the 5....

 

But ROTJ is actually my favorite sounding Star Wars score.  I have no idea how to describe how it sounds!

 

 

 

i guess yeah you are right, but even the 3 prequels and 3 sequel trilogies all kinda sound the same at times?  it seems ANH, ESB and ROTJ all have their own sound.  i honestly apologize for not being able to say anything else besides sound, i have 0 musical knowledge.  but i love ROTJ.

All three prequels sound slightly different though, AOTC has his 2002 brass resonance/timbre, ROTS is darker with very prom timpani etc.

[Bellosh 3,811]

2 minutes ago, Presto said:

All three prequels sound slightly different though, AOTC has his 2002 brass resonance/timbre, ROTS is darker with very prom timpani etc.

 

see not to me though.  and maybe not as drastic as the OT's are to one another.  but yeah, maybe this is an individual thing

[Datameister 2,231]

@Bellosh Are you listening to the OST, the Anthology, or the SE? The ROTJ SE is missing the higher frequencies, resulting in a muffled sound. I don't know that a definitive, detailed explanation for this has ever been given.

[Bellosh 3,811]

5 minutes ago, Datameister said:

@Bellosh Are you listening to the OST, the Anthology, or the SE? The ROTJ SE is missing the higher frequencies, resulting in a muffled sound. I don't know that a definitive, detailed explanation for this has ever been given.

 

1997 SE

[KittBash 289]

Similar to @Datameister's thought, Though it may not be definitive Page 26 of Chris Malones often cited and excellent "Recording the Star Wars Saga" Has some great insight on the sound of the Jedi SE's. Below is just a snippit. 

https://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdf

 

Quote

Disappointingly, the upper highs have been significantly attenuated. Signal above 10 KHz is virtually non-existent and most certainly rarely extends beyond 14 KHz. It would seem that no additional EQ, however radical, can cajole these frequencies satisfactorily. There is also an inconsistent application of EQ from disc one to disc two with the former generally brighter compared with the latter.  

 

The reason for the conspicuous absence of upper highs – and the hiss that should be present with analog recording – could be shared between poor alignment of the machine used to reproduce the source tapes and incorrect calibration of the requisite Dolby A decoder. More likely, the extensive use of digital noise reduction during mastering is the culprit. The noise reduction has vacuumed up the ambience of the original recording leaving a false, barren wasteland in its place. As a whole the music is congested and closed-in, lacking the aliveness of earlier releases. 

 

[Datameister 2,231]

28 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

1997 SE

 

Then I don't know what to tell you. The widely held opinion is that the sound on that one is godawful. 

 

I'm curious how ROTJ on the OST or Anthology sounds to you? Better? Worse? Just different? Not different at all?

[rpvee 854]

I’m surprised I haven’t seen it mentioned in this thread that the score also very much expands the Star Wars sound scape. It uses a lot more electronic instruments (especially around Jabba’s palace), there’s all the world-ish percussion with the Ewoks, and, of course, the famous choral part during the final duel. All that makes Jedi sound really distinct to me.

[Davis 2,758]

It’s an amazing score. JW was at the absolute top of his game, and he put all into ROTJ.

[karelm 2,974]

I have the 1997 SE and find the sound very inconsistent.  Some tracks sound fantastic others sound terrible.  It was recorded in multiple venues and I heard that at Olympic Studios, the band was too large for the venue so they were sitting on top of each (figuratively) and had difficulty hearing each other.  I understood some of that is heard in the recording too.   Probably the Abbey Road recordings are the better sounding ones like Darth Vader arrives, Emperor's Death, Sail Barge sound fantastic but some of the battle of Endor doesn't.  

[Bellosh 3,811]

13 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

Then I don't know what to tell you. The widely held opinion is that the sound on that one is godawful. 

 

I'm curious how ROTJ on the OST or Anthology sounds to you? Better? Worse? Just different? Not different at all?

 

you know now that i think about it --- i don't think i've listened to ROTJ on any other version besides the '97 SE.

[Datameister 2,231]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

I have the 1997 SE and find the sound very inconsistent.  Some tracks sound fantastic others sound terrible.  It was recorded in multiple venues and I heard that at Olympic Studios, the band was too large for the venue so they were sitting on top of each (figuratively) and had difficulty hearing each other.  I understood some of that is heard in the recording too.   Probably the Abbey Road recordings are the better sounding ones like Darth Vader arrives, Emperor's Death, Sail Barge sound fantastic but some of the battle of Endor doesn't.  

I believe only the space battle cue that consists of material from ANH was the only thing recorded at Olympic. All the other orchestral stuff should have been at Abbey Road, so that's not it.

 

That being said, I do think the magic of Abbey Road has something to do with how good ROTJ sounds in non-SE releases. Something just went wrong with the SE album specifically. Which is unfortunate, because the program is so outstanding. There are many scores that I prefer to hear abridged. The Star Wars scores are not among them—especially not the first six.

[QuartalHarmony 643]

23 hours ago, Jay said:

That's not a cue, its a track

 

No, it’s obviously a song.

[Badzeee 112]

Yub yub 

[karelm 2,974]

8 hours ago, Datameister said:

I believe only the space battle cue that consists of material from ANH was the only thing recorded at Olympic. All the other orchestral stuff should have been at Abbey Road, so that's not it.

 

That being said, I do think the magic of Abbey Road has something to do with how good ROTJ sounds in non-SE releases. Something just went wrong with the SE album specifically. Which is unfortunate, because the program is so outstanding. There are many scores that I prefer to hear abridged. The Star Wars scores are not among them—especially not the first six.

 

Yeah, I think that's the one.  I remember wondering why they stuck with a clearly inferior rerecorded version of what was better in 1977.  I'm going a bit off memory but remember thinking, damn this is subpar.  Is there a fan edit that uses the best recordings from all possible sources?  I've owned every album except the awful remaster but always got rid of prior ones when getting the latest thinking the newer version improves but it seems its a very mixed bag of which release is better for any track.  

[Tom 4,967]

For me, ROTJ and TOD share a lot in common with respect to their scores.  It's just Williams going balls to the wall with a jubilance and sheer for the hell of it fun that both projects allowed.  ESB (my favorite score of all time) has fun, but its general tenor is more serious and thus a bit more restrained on this front.

 

Perhaps too its the 83-85ish mood and mode of Williams.  The Olympic theme is perfection and NBC news stuff--especially the insanity of the fugue and scherzo is just plain over the top fun.  He seems to show zero restraint and zero concerns over things like "too many notes."  

 

So, I've got nothing on sound quality concerns, but this is why is sounds different to me. 

[igger6 929]

This fascinates me as well, actually, as a SE lifer who doesn't know any better.  I bought the ESB disc of the Anthology used because I just love that score the most.  Can anyone point to any YouTube videos or anything that illustrate the quality differences between the releases?  Is the current OST on Spotify the awful remaster or the 2016 one (or are those the same)?

[Trope 712]

1 hour ago, igger6 said:

This fascinates me as well, actually, as a SE lifer who doesn't know any better.  I bought the ESB disc of the Anthology used because I just love that score the most.  Can anyone point to any YouTube videos or anything that illustrate the quality differences between the releases?  Is the current OST on Spotify the awful remaster or the 2016 one (or are those the same)?

Here's a comparison of an excerpt from a ROTJ cue. It's titled "Through the Flames" on the Anthology, and "The Main Reactor" on the SE. IMO the Anthology sounds much clearer. I'm so glad I purchased it a few years ago.

[The Great Gonzales 6,048]

12 hours ago, Datameister said:

There are many scores that I prefer to hear abridged. The Star Wars scores are not among them—especially not the first six.

Anh is fine IIRC, only thing really missing is Cantina Band 2, and maaaayyybe Learn to use the Force? (The one with the harp that sounds like a train warning)

On 19/01/2024 at 12:33 AM, rpvee said:

I’m surprised I haven’t seen it mentioned in this thread that the score also very much expands the Star Wars sound scape. It uses a lot more electronic instruments (especially around Jabba’s palace), there’s all the world-ish percussion with the Ewoks, and, of course, the famous choral part during the final duel. All that makes Jedi sound really distinct to me.

To be fair, ESB has synth too.

[Naïve Old Fart 10,238]

3 hours ago, Presto said:

To be fair, ESB has synth too.

If memory serves, it's only used on one cue.

[Chen G. 4,414]

3 hours ago, Presto said:

To be fair, ESB has synth too.

 

And a wee bit of choir!

 

But the use of "world" instruments is mostly new to Return of the Jedi. The Ewok scenes call for quite a large setup of percussion:

 

https://www.facebook.com/QSOrchestra/videos/percussion-tour-for-star-wars-return-of-the-jedi-live-movie-experience/122147215861798/

[Holko 10,020]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

If memory serves, it's only used on one cue.

Two very prominent uses at least, in the cave vision and when Luke almost seems like he'll lift the X-wing at first.

[The Great Gonzales 6,048]

22 minutes ago, Holko said:

Two very prominent uses at least, in the cave vision and when Luke almost seems like he'll lift the X-wing at first.

Losing a Hand!

[Holko 10,020]

Oh yeah there's a Jabba's Palace-like rumble now that I listen to it, but not nearly as prominent as those other two.

[Naïve Old Fart 10,238]

3 hours ago, Presto said:

Losing a Hand!

 

Really?

What time does that happen at?

[enderdrag64 804]

12 hours ago, igger6 said:

Is the current OST on Spotify the awful remaster or the 2016 one (or are those the same)?

The 2016 releases were the original OST albums. They were new transfers of the original OST masters, and many people say they're the best sounding releases of those OSTs.

 

The 2018 releases are ground up rebuilds of the OSTs made using the session masters, those are the sets people have a lot of problems with, and are the ones currently on streaming services.

[Edmilson 8,539]

10 hours ago, Trope said:

Here's a comparison of an excerpt from a ROTJ cue. It's titled "Through the Flames" on the Anthology, and "The Main Reactor" on the SE. IMO the Anthology sounds much clearer. I'm so glad I purchased it a few years ago.

I'm sorry, your musical files are not playing for me. Could it be an issue with the forum? Or maybe with myself? I tried a few days ago uploading a music file to another thread, one of them didn't work.

 

 

Are those cues available on YouTube? If so, could you post them with the timestamps, please? I never heard the Anthology albums so I can't compare.

[Trope 712]

 

[artguy360 1,889]

The SE release sounds good awful and others have already explained why. That said, the orchestrations for ROTJ are really cool, especially the use of choir and synth towards the end. 

[John F 100]

Just patiently waiting for the inevitable Matessino releases.

[Marian Schedenig 8,816]

Miguel Metissimo?

[John F 100]

16 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Miguel Metissimo?

Name corrected lol.

[QuartalHarmony 643]

On 20/1/2024 at 9:19 AM, Chen G. said:

The Ewok scenes call for quite a large setup of percussion

Indeed: the HL score for Parade of the Ewoks specifies (in addition to the usual orchestral hardware):

 

• Low Logs (soft mallets)
• Conga
• Bell Tree
• Toy Piano
• Tuned Cowbells
• Tambourine
• Chromatic Wood Blocks

 

[Datameister 2,231]

On 20/01/2024 at 2:02 AM, Holko said:

Two very prominent uses at least, in the cave vision and when Luke almost seems like he'll lift the X-wing at first.

In the wampa cave, too.

[Chen G. 4,414]

3 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Indeed: the HL score for Parade of the Ewoks specifies (in addition to the usual orchestral hardware):

 

Right, and there's also a Kendhang somewhere in there. Lots of stuff!

[QuartalHarmony 643]

*googles Kendhang*
 

*nods vacantly whilst trying to look intelligent*
 

“Mm, yes”

[Edmilson 8,539]

9 hours ago, John F said:

Just patiently waiting for the inevitable Matessino releases.

Get ready to wait for a veeeeeeeeeeeery long time then. If you manage to be alive until the 2070s, there might be a (small) chance 

[John F 100]

17 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Get ready to wait for a veeeeeeeeeeeery long time then. If you manage to be alive until the 2070s, there might be a (small) chance 

Well that’s depressing. What leads you to believe he isn’t involved already? Or just speculating on your part.

[Edmilson 8,539]

The 2070s part was a joke, but as far as we know, Star Wars and Indy aren't as easy to be expanded as, say, other non-Lucasfilm movies in JW's filmography. Lucasfilm is owned by Disney and Disney appears to have a more strict control of their prized brands, so they might be unwilling to work with LLL, for example. Which is why there seems to be no indication of when (and if) these scores will have an expansion like the ones we're used to.

[bored 431]

God, I'd kill for a Revenge of the Sith complete/deluxe release.

[Tallguy 4,124]

31 minutes ago, bored said:

God, I'd kill for a Revenge of the Sith complete/deluxe release.

 

Anyone in particular? Or you'll take what comes? 

[Groovygoth666 940]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

The 2070s part was a joke, but as far as we know, Star Wars and Indy aren't as easy to be expanded as, say, other non-Lucasfilm movies in JW's filmography. Lucasfilm is owned by Disney and Disney appears to have a more strict control of their prized brands, so they might be unwilling to work with LLL, for example. Which is why there seems to be no indication of when (and if) these scores will have an expansion like the ones we're used to.

Well Intrada has done a couple of Lucasfilm releases, Willow and Solo. Mondo did vinyls for the Rogue One expanded edition and for Mando, which is currently the only way to get them on physical media. So for Star Wars it seems they're open to doing expansions. As Intradas not long released theirs maybe work has just started and there could be a lot of work to do and elements that need tracking down maybe etc? 

[bored 431]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

 

Anyone in particular? Or you'll take what comes? 

 

Well I'd start with the heads of Disney. After that we'll see what comes!

[igger6 929]

On 20/01/2024 at 7:44 PM, Trope said:

 

 

Wow, that's striking.  Makes me wish I'd picked up the ROTJ disc when the used bookstore had them all sitting there individually priced!

[bored 431]

Wherever this version of the soundtrack comes from is my favorite. Just the fact that you can actually hear more of the harp material and other hidden details so clearly and without much white noise and not too much treble is what does it for me.

 

 

I'm also a fan of the "Revenge Restoration" that you can find floating around some places. Almost sounds like an improved version of the 93 anthology set to me.