gkgyver 1,647 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Those people that criticized the score might even have valid points, if their idea of perfect Star Wars wasn't trailer Music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,582 Posted December 18, 2017 Author Share Posted December 18, 2017 3 hours ago, gkgyver said: Those people are ignorant morons. FTFY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,529 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 One of the rare comprehensive informed reviews online. http://www.movie-wave.net/star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Quote The Last Jedi is wonderful music and will bring me (and almost certainly you) great joy for many years to come; it’s not quite the masterpiece from start to finish that The Force Awakens was, but here we are in 2017, with brilliant new Star Wars music from the 85-year-old master John Williams to celebrate. **** 1/2 Though I have a feeling the reviewer has read these forums for some of his analyses. I am looking forward to Clemensen's review (for my money the single best reviewer of film scores out there). Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,184 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 I would imagine Clemmensen will award it 5 stars for it's superb handling of past themes, but we'll see. TheUlyssesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,236 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Clemmensen is a shitwit. In my heyday I could sit on the bowl for 20 minutes and type up a post on a score with more depth and insight than he could conjure across his entire career. Not Mr. Big and Breadstick Basilisk 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,529 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 48 minutes ago, Taikomochi said: I would imagine Clemensen will award it 5 stars for it's superb handling of past themes, but we'll see. Atleast 4. All the previous 7 SW JW scores got 5 stars for music as written for the film. Only EP III got 4 star overall for a weaker album. Even Gia's R1 got 4. So I think atleast 4, perhaps 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,718 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Taikomochi said: I would imagine Clemmensen will award it 5 stars for it's superb handling of past themes, but we'll see. 5 stars for writing with pencil and paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,184 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Could the bad ass series of moments starting at 2:03 of "The Last Jedi" be related to Luke's theme as heard at 1:33 in "The Rebellion is Reborn"? I'm not musically trained, but they seem to be structured similarly and have a similar progression. Curious what others think. Maybe I am just hearing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 938 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 This is a nice interesting read... https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-Motivated-a-Musicologist/242087 Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,207 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 I do not understand that nitpick of the "dissonance" of Rose's theme? WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,745 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 Yeah, completely unnecessary nitpick. Obviously the man's too rigid regarding "film composition rules". It takes an artistic talent to know when to break them. Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,169 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 37 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Yeah, completely unnecessary nitpick. Obviously the man's too rigid regarding "film composition rules". It takes an artistic talent to know when to break them. Yikes! I did say I've grown to appreciate it, didn't I? justaguy and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,207 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 58 minutes ago, hornist said: I do not understand that nitpick of the "dissonance" of Rose's theme? WTF? Actually I heard it now, in the Fathiers when Rose's theme blasts, I first thought it was just a cool twist that dissonance but I tried with the piano and there it is. Williams hides it cleverly when the theme is played softly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien F 1,761 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 Another long in-depth review by Jonathan Broxton, who is typically a very good reviewer - https://moviemusicuk.us/2017/12/19/star-wars-the-last-jedi-john-williams/ Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,745 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, Falstaft said: Yikes! I did say I've grown to appreciate it, didn't I? Yes you did, I was maybe a bit harsh. I liked the comparison with Wagner, though. Especially the Force theme has a kick-ass Wagnerian counterpart - you know which theme I'm talking about. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,130 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 5 hours ago, pete said: This is a nice interesting read... https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-Motivated-a-Musicologist/242087 Lehman's response to the question of whether studying Williams in the classroom perhaps is a motivator to study related classical artists like Wagner is great: Quote Why does it have to go from Williams to Wagner? Maybe it should go in the direction, to increase our appreciation of John Williams or Hans Zimmer. Indeed! It makes more sense anyway from a historical point of view and, most importantly, doesn't cheapen the value of studying film music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,745 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 Agree, except for the Zimmer part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,647 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 14 minutes ago, Ludwig said: Indeed! It makes more sense anyway from a historical point of view and, most importantly, doesn't cheapen the value of studying film music. Though i found the whole interview and reasoning strictly d'oh-variety. The whole leitmotif shebang is overrated anyway. Williams himself didn't take (following them) overly seriously and the qualities of the compositions (SW/Indiana Jones) doesn't hinge on them. They are just very memorable melodies. Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,540 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 If you can't hum it, it's not good music, pub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,130 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 16 minutes ago, publicist said: Though i found the whole interview and reasoning strictly d'oh-variety. The whole leitmotif shebang is overrated anyway. Williams himself didn't take (following them) overly seriously and the qualities of the compositions (SW/Indiana Jones) doesn't hinge on them. They are just very memorable melodies. Agreed. The interviewer's question just rubs me (and obviously Lehman) the wrong way. One could probably get more out such study just by not trying to make historical connections in the first place (as was the interviewer's suggestion). Instead, it would probably be more enlightening for students to study film music in its own right and discuss some of the techniques that are endemic to it. Its immediacy, for example, rather than the goal-directed sort of development that is a linchpin of so much classical music. Personally, I find film music to be a great pedagogical tool not only because of its stylistic variety (you can access almost any concept you want) but, most importantly, because for the better film music, it demonstrates very directly some of the emotional meaning behind certain techniques, which I find just about everyone can understand, if not relate to. Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,647 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 1 minute ago, BloodBoal said: If you can't hum it, it's not good music, pub. If only Stockhausen took this advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,745 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 Just now, publicist said: If only Stockhausen took this advice! He was just really good at humming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,647 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ludwig said: Instead, it would probably be more enlightening for students to study film music in its own right and discuss some of the techniques that are endemic to it. Yeah, or how the dying breed of 'classical' Hollywood composers took the best of 300 years of musical history, from Bach to Bacharach, and molded something out of it that can't be explained with some lofty artistic ideal from 200 years ago. I guess the hard work that came with the big-time competition that has always been part of working in the film industry has a lot to do with it, at least more than studying Wagner atop an ebony tower. Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Loert 2,594 Posted December 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: Yeah, completely unnecessary nitpick. Obviously the man's too rigid regarding "film composition rules". It takes an artistic talent to know when to break them. It's precisely because of the dissonance that Rose's theme becomes more interesting. If it were a simple I-II shift, how boring would that be? I don't really understand Lehman's gripe, Williams is obviously experienced enough to know what he's doing. Cerebral Cortex, Marcus, Jurassic Shark and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,207 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, Loert said: It's precisely because of the dissonance that Rose's theme becomes more interesting. If it were a simple I-II shift, how boring would that be? I don't really understand Lehman's gripe, Williams is obviously experienced enough to know what he's doing. Exactly!! I was just about to write that to the comments section but I was afraid my english is not good enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,159 Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 http://thathashtagshow.com/2017/12/last-jedis-soundtrack/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviazn 273 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 A nice appreciation from Alex Ross in the New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-field-guide-to-the-musical-leitmotifs-of-star-wars Quote In decades past, it was fashionable for self-styled serious music types to look down on Williams, but the “Star Wars” corpus has increasingly attracted scholarly scrutiny: Lehman’s catalogue will be published in “John Williams: Music for Films, Television, and the Concert Stage,” a volume forthcoming from the Centro Studi Opera Omnia Luigi Boccherini. This attention has come about not only because of the mythic weight that George Lucas’s space operas have acquired in the contemporary imagination; the music is also superbly crafted and rewards close analysis. Williams’s latest score is one the most compelling in his forty-year “Star Wars” career: Rian Johnson’s film complicates and enriches the familiar template, and Williams responds with intricate, ambiguous variations on his canon of themes. Especially liked the references he raises at the end: Quote Williams is no minimalist, favoring quick harmonic motion in his music, but here he fixates on an F-minor chord, with a three-note figure—F, C, A-flat—ricocheting around the orchestra. When Luke inexplicably survives an all-out Imperial barrage, the motif returns, banged out on the timpani. The dramatic soprano Christine Goerke was not the only person who thought here of the Agamemnon figure in Richard Strauss’s “Elektra.” Agamemnon haunts that opera from beyond the grave; likewise, Luke is not actually present on Crait, instead appearing by long-distance Force projection. All that darksome, epic music is swirling in Kylo Ren’s conflicted mind. The Wagnerian cliffhanger in this installment involves a shot of Luke’s lightsabre, broken in two. Siegfried’s task is to forge the shattered sword anew; someone in the far-away galaxy is likely to follow suit. When I pointed this out on Twitter, Rian Johnson responded with a sword emoji, suggesting that I might not be making much ado about Nothung. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,381 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Quote Some people may say this score as John Williams cutting and pasting classic themes. He is a five-time Academy Award-winning composure. And don’t forget he won the Academy Award for Episode IV, “A New Hope”. Every character we have ever loved in Star Wars has been given a theme of sorts; eight movies of John Williams magic. It is nostalgia at it’s best for all of us and total ear candy. I welcome it. And I think you will too. And yet, its not completely beyond Williams to give an existing character another, new theme, if only for the sake of keeping the score fresh. There should have been more of that in this. As it is, its a notable departure from the composer's body of work in that each score was based predominantly on new thematic material. On 12/19/2017 at 11:15 PM, publicist said: Though i found the whole interview and reasoning strictly d'oh-variety. The whole leitmotif shebang is overrated anyway. Williams himself didn't take (following them) overly seriously and the qualities of the compositions (SW/Indiana Jones) doesn't hinge on them. They are just very memorable melodies. And yet his compositions are, at their core, leitmotivic. That he sometimes (and not that often) strays away from the narrative significance of the leitmotif doesn't undo the structure as a whole. Wagner also used his themes like that, sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 687 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 http://filmtracks.com/titles/last_jedi.html Filmtracks review is up! Caution: there’s a movie review in there too. TheUlyssesian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,360 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Too long for me to consider reading. Remco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco 687 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 There’s not much to find there anyway, but the 5* rating and his general opinion of the score is appropriate, I think. Wonder if and when he’ll change the rating of ROTS from 4 to 5 at some point, as he did with HPSS. Edit: oh, his claim that the score was badly treated in film and micro-edited to hell, more than TFA (!) is absurd. It’s clear that he’s no fan of the movie and its director, but this is not something to blame Rian Johnson for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,571 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Remco said: Edit: oh, his claim that the score was badly treated in film and micro-edited to hell, more than TFA (!) is absurd. It’s clear that he’s no fan of the movie and its director, but this is not something to blame Rian Johnson for. Indeed, if anyone is to "blame" it's Williams himself for his insistence to work with edits so early in the post-production process. That's not a complaint mind you, that's just the reality of his process at an age where he can no longer pull 12 hour writing days. The modern film goes through dozens, if not hundreds of edits before the final cut. The alternative would be no Williams score at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,184 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 For such a long review, he goes into surprisingly little detail or exploration of the score. His review of TFA was pretty exhaustive where he really examined every piece of music available. His TLJ review glossed over a lot, disappointingly. Will and Breadstick Basilisk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,582 Posted January 9, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2018 The benefit of him writing to earlier, longer cuts of the film means he's actually writing and recording "fuller" cues in the first place, with room to develop themes in long-form. The side effect is microedits in the final film as the film undergoes revisions. Oh well. Still better than having no new score at all! And the score's ultimate preservation will be in the eventual complete release, where his recordings are presented without such edits. Just imagine if he'd written music for an early cut of the entire arena sequence in AOTC. Even if it had been eventually cut to shreds, it would still have been better that he wrote it in the first place. Arpy, Remco, Cerebral Cortex and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Remco 687 Posted January 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2018 But I wouldn’t blame anyone for anything in the case of this movie: apart from maybe ‘Escape’, I’m getting the impression that everything is more or less presented faithfully. And also: it’s LOUD! How can he say the music has a muddy presence in the movie? Will, crumbs, Tiburon and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,889 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 The revisions, lost music, and micro-edits are less the result of JW's approach to scoring and recording and more the unavoidable result of directors no longer delivering locked pictures for composers to score. Last minute film editing is the norm these days and all composers are impacted by this reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,159 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Even CC compares TLJ to RotS in what he terms an 'unmemorable score'. I think RotS has the stronger themes, culminating in BotH and the Mustafar/Senate sequences which happen to be the material that's found in the complete score and cut down for the OST. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,381 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 It's also by far the most operatic Star Wars score, and it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAG-SI 10 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 The best mention of John Williams and score for this pile of trash of the movie: at 47:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,230 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 CC's review was a fun read as usual, although I agree that his complaints about the (supposedly) rampant film micro-editing were a bit bizarre. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerebral Cortex 3,358 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I'm glad you liked my review. Will and Loert 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,582 Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 Johnson tweeted the Alex Ross article. They've had some back and forth over the last week. Seems like Johnson and Williams discussed this quite a bit over the journey. John and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,529 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 But Johnson didn't even do a spotting session with Williams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,360 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Doesn't mean they didn't discuss the music. Dunno if this article was posted here. Williams talks about The Post and TLJ with John Burlingame. http://variety.com/2018/music/awards/john-williams-could-set-oscar-record-1202658996/ All of this required an orchestra of 101, the 64-voice Los Angeles Master Chorale, and 11 days of recording from December 2016 to June 2017. The L.A. musicians recorded 184 minutes of music, some of which was discarded before the final cut of 2 hours, 35 minutes was reached. (By comparison, “The Post” required a smaller orchestra of 76 and was recorded over three days in late October and early November.) Johnson was so delighted with the results that, Williams says, he would eventually like to release a version of the film “without the dialogue and effects, just the music played in the foreground. All of the accompanimental music will be brought forward — every gesture, the music traveling along with the moods and textures, references to characters and so on.” Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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