Simon Franglen's AVATAR: THE WAY OF WATER (2022)

[D_A_R_T_H 24]

Has anyone started to build a complete tracklisting with the unreleased tracks from the movie ?

[Mr. Who 974]

2 hours ago, D_A_R_T_H said:

Has anyone started to build a complete tracklisting with the unreleased tracks from the movie ?

Not yet but I remember that there is an unreleased cue before Songcord opening, there's a different version of Happiness is Simple that plays before the ost cue Happiness is simple. When I see the movie next time I will try to remember and make some notes.

[crocodile 8,407]

Oh yeah, the film opens with Horner’s theme. I remember now.

 

Karol

[Tydirium 1,252]

Finally saw the film yesterday, and ended up liking the score even more than I already did! It fits the film like a glove, imo. Really felt like Horner was back in quite a few places. I found myself noticing some of Franglen's new themes a lot more than before, notably Payakan's theme.

 

Believe it or not, this was my first time back seeing a movie in theaters since just before Covid. Not that I was scared to go back for health reasons; rather, there just wasn't much that was coming out that interested me. But man, what a film to pick as my first one back, and in IMAX 3D no less. Overall, an incredible experience. And the IMAX sound system really turned certain cues (like "A New Star") into something else entirely. That one sounds ominous on album, but in the theater I was blown away by the power of it.

[leeallen01 2,169]

Just saw it for the second time. After listening to the score many times and becoming familiar with all the thematic ideas, the film was so much more powerful emotionally. I found it difficult to hold back the tears in the emotional finale.

 

I'm loving this score more all the time. As much as Horner's score, in fact. I connect so much more with the characters in the second film because of the family story, so that paired with the gorgeous themes Franglen wrote for The Sully Family, The Waterworld of Pandora, Payakan, and Kiri is a magical experience. 

[CrimsonRain96 11]

Anyone else besides me notice there’s a cue towards the end of the “Knife Fight” track (beginning at 2:22, to be exact) that sounds almost like a mixture between Henry Jackman’s “Civil War” leitmotif and the main theme from Michael Giacchino’s two Planet of the Apes films?

[leeallen01 2,169]

I swear I heard a wonderful grand alternate version of the Water Theme during the end credits. Can't find it on the score though. Unless I'm imagining things. It sounded like The Tulkun Return, just slightly differently orchestrated.

[Mr. Who 974]

2 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

I swear I heard a wonderful grand alternate version of the Water Theme during the end credits. Can't find it on the score though. Unless I'm imagining things. It sounded like The Tulkun Return, just slightly differently orchestrated.

When I saw the movie for the second time I used the Shazam app during the end credits and after the Sanctuary part played it couldn’t identify what was playing (right before the songcord started). Maybe this is what you remember? I hadn’t listened to the longer album at this point.

 

When I see it next time I might try to record the end credits on my phone.

[Edmilson 8,680]

Does Leaving Home/Hometree gets played during the end titles? Even partially? 

[Bounty95 561]

3 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

I swear I heard a wonderful grand alternate version of the Water Theme during the end credits. Can't find it on the score though. Unless I'm imagining things. It sounded like The Tulkun Return, just slightly differently orchestrated.

 

I noticed that as well. This cue should have been released. BTW, will there be a FYC album? (sorry in case this was discussed already) 

[Tydirium 1,252]

On 27/12/2022 at 3:39 PM, leeallen01 said:

I swear I heard a wonderful grand alternate version of the Water Theme during the end credits. Can't find it on the score though. Unless I'm imagining things. It sounded like The Tulkun Return, just slightly differently orchestrated.

 

I heard it too. I recognized that it wasn't on the album and got sad, lol. Not sure why it isn't on there.

[Bounty95 561]

I asked Simon Franglen on Twitter concerning the alternate The Tulkun Return:

 

Quote

Thank you for your wonderful score, I'm listening to the expanded album on repeat. I noticed a wonderful grand alternate of The Tulkun Return playing during the end credits of the movie. I couldn't locate this cue on either album. Is there a chance that this cue will be released?

 

And he replied to me:

 

Quote

I’ve had a few requests. I’ll see what we can do. And thank you.

 

[Taikomochi 1,201]

We need to just keep asking him for any cues we can identify if that’s gonna be his response. Someone ask him for the submarine chase cue

[LSH 1,011]

I've spoken to Simon Franglen via Twitter and he has very kindly accepted my invitation to an interview on behalf of the forum, which he spoke highly of.

 

So, while I arrange and schedule it through the proper channels, please throw out any questions you would like answered! 

[midgemania 54]

4 hours ago, LSH said:

please throw out any questions you would like answered! 

Firstly, thanks so much for organising that!

 

I had a couple of questions that composers are famously reluctant to talk about. Franglen seems unusually willing to engage, so maybe he’ll answer them. 
 

1) What’s the typical trajectory of a cue from leaving his desk (presumably in a DAW given his synth focus) to finally getting dubbed into the film? How many hands would it pass through?

 

2) How much room is there for individual artistic expression with a very detail-oriented and opinionated director like Cameron? How locked in to things like the temp are you as a composer?
 

3) How much of the first film material was tracked in VS rescored or even slightly rearranged for TWOW?

 

4) With the inclusion of material from the first film, how much was a directorial decision, and how much was suggested or implemented by the music team?

 

[Edmilson 8,680]

I think it'd be cool if you ask him questions related not only to the score for the second movie, but also the score for the first movie: how was like working with James Horner on that project? What was their proccess in creating the musical soundscape of Pandora for that film?

[1977 1,745]

I've been listening to this a lot (more than any other album this year) and am loving it. I actually quite enjoy Franglen's action music which is strange as I'm not a fan of the modern style but this somehow grabs me. The song is pretty catchy too.

[leeallen01 2,169]

I guess a question I would have for him is; How did you identify and individualise your orchestration choices for the seperate environments/characters? For example the ethereal orchestration of Eywa and Kiri, the industrial orchestration of the RDA, and the delicate orchestration of your underwater material?

[Tydirium 1,252]

Don’t think this interview has been posted yet:

 

 

[midgemania 54]

On 21/12/2022 at 10:48 PM, Knight of Ren said:

 

 

So this is it for the main ideas. I know I left some out, like the different ideas associated with the RDA, and some secondary motifs for the kids, but I think this serves as a great introduction to the score. I don't know if this format is adequate, so if you have any suggestions or corrections feel free to share!

Following on from @Knight of Ren’s magnificent leitmotif breakdown, I’m sure I’ve spotted a main new one that is related to loss or grief. 
 

In the extended Score, the first time we hear it is at 6:05 of “Rescue and Loss” when

 

Spoiler

The family rejoin each other in the forest and realise that Spider has been taken 

The next time we hear it is on a wooden flute at 0:55 of “Eclipse” just before 

 

Spoiler

Neteyam dies

(as an aside, this is my favourite moment in the score. That combination of the Songcord / Family theme with the Horner wailing voices from the first film is a knockout and exactly what I was hoping Franglen would deliver in this film)

 

The next time we hear the theme is after the final battle at 0:41 of “Family” with solo female voice. This is slightly more developed than the first 2 iterations, but still structurally incomplete 

 

The final time we hear it (maybe) is at 0:37 of “The Spirit Tree”. This feels like the 2nd half  of the development in “Family” with the same 3 8th note pickups into the bar. At least they play together nicely when I noodle it on my piano!
 

I wonder whether this is one of the “seeds” in the score that Franglen has spoken of that will come to fruition later in the series. It’s certainly a nice theme, and has that same Celtic DNA that Cameron likes so much, and that Horner was a master of. 

[Taikomochi 1,201]

I pointed that theme out a page or two ago. Though, I associated it with the kids. I think you are correct that it actually represents loss. Really beautiful theme.

[leeallen01 2,169]

Didn't notice that. Nice find. It reminds me of the solo voice as Tsu'tey falls from the shuttle in the first Avatar. There's a thematic connection of loss there.

[Mr. Who 974]

This is such a great score! I was sceptical at first that Franglen got the gig to score possibly the biggest movies of all time but when I started hearing a few interviews about the score I started feeling more confident in the choice. After having seen the movie and listening to the score, I’m so happy that Cameron went with Franglen. He’s really the perfect composer for the job!

[John F 100]

Great movie and great score. Once I was immersed back into Pandora I didn’t care that the story had shades of the first film. Hope it makes whatever it needs to make so we get the next one. The score works gangbusters too. I don’t think any other composer could have continued in Horners footsteps. Brilliant on all levels. Wish the expanded album gave us a couple more cues…

[Tydirium 1,252]

Jon Broxton’s review is up:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/12/29/avatar-the-way-of-water-simon-franglen/

 

Quote

There are several outstanding cues where the Family theme takes center stage. For example, in “Sanctuary,” Franglen embellishes the theme with some rousing tribal percussion and nativist choral chants that are wonderfully evocative. In “Into the Water” Franglen re-arranges the theme for an array of delicate wordless female vocalists accompanied by unusual, experimental-sounding electronic textures that really enhance the sense of ‘alien-ness’ about this Pandoran culture, while also making it sound familiar and welcoming. In “The Tulkun Return,” which underscores a scene where hundreds upon hundreds of whale-like creatures descend upon the Metkayina lagoon – the theme is rousing, jubilant, full of life and energy.

 

Is it just me, or is he incorrect about this? In "Into the Water" and "The Tulkun Return," that's not the Family theme, but rather the Water Tribe (Metkayina) theme. Totally different theme, which he seems to have missed. Doesn't mention Kiri's theme in his review, either.

 

Other than that, good review; it's nice to see so much positivity online about this score.

[Mr. Who 974]

10 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Jon Broxton’s review is up:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/12/29/avatar-the-way-of-water-simon-franglen/

 

 

Is it just me, or is he incorrect about this? In "Into the Water" and "The Tulkun Return," that's not the Family theme, but rather the Water Tribe (Metkayina) theme. Totally different theme, which he seems to have missed. Doesn't mention Kiri's theme in his review, either.

 

Other than that, good review; it's nice to see so much positivity online about this score.

Yeah he is mixing up the Family theme with the Way of Water/ Underwater theme. The Metkayina clan also have a theme that plays in 2 cues (horn solo in Sanctuary) and at the end of Into the Water in the piano. It’s a really smartly written score.

[leeallen01 2,169]

Which piece has the choir singing "oel ngati kameie" very clear and loud?

 

I seem to have lost the piece where it happens... haha. Can't find it no matter how many times I search for some reason.

 

Nevermind haha - I found it. It was in Songchord opening.

[Tydirium 1,252]

5 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

Yeah he is mixing up the Family theme with the Way of Water/ Underwater theme. The Metkayina clan also have a theme that plays in 2 cues (horn solo in Sanctuary) and at the end of Into the Water in the piano. It’s a really smartly written score.

Could you please give timestamps for the Metkayina theme in those two cues? That’s interesting if true; I was going off of the leitmotif/theme post a page or two back that seemed to label what you call the underwater theme as the theme for the water tribe (as well as being an underwater theme).

[Mr. Who 974]

5 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Could you please give timestamps for the Metkayina theme in those two cues? That’s interesting if true; I was going off of the leitmotif/theme post a page or two back that seemed to label what you call the underwater theme as the theme for the water tribe (as well as being an underwater theme).

The Underwater theme kind of acts as a Metkayina theme as well in some scenes. I think Simon calls it the "Return of the Tulkun Theme" on twitter but he might be talking about a different theme. He said that this one plus the Payakan theme are probably his favorites from the score.

 

The Metkayina Clan theme that I mentioned is played at: 1:46 by the horn in 'Sanctuary', and is played briefly by the piano at: 3:22 by the piano in 'Into the Water'. I don't know if it appears in more cues in the movie but I haven't noticed it in any other OST cues than these two. This could potentially be a location theme for the main village (Awa'atlu) and less a theme for the clan but it’s difficult to say.

 

I hope Franglen publishes a thematic guide with the official theme names someday, for the complete 4CD LLL release they are hopefully working on 😬

[Mr. Who 974]

On 29/12/2022 at 10:28 PM, Tydirium said:

Don’t think this interview has been posted yet:

 

 

I just listened to this and Franglen calls the underwater theme “the way of water theme” so it’s a safe bet that that is the official name of the theme (in into the water, return of the tulkun etc).

[karelm 3,013]

This was a really good film - very entertaining and wonderful score.  It didn't always feel like Horner but felt like someone who tried to embody Horner and that's the most we can ever hope for.  I'm totally fine that he wasn't cloning Horner but embodied him while doing his own thing too.  It had otherworldly themes too. There were new themes that I thought were gorgeous and I could feel the synth connection to so much of Horner's earlier scores like Titanic which to me, this film had a lot of connection to.  Thumbs up for lots of use of Lydian mode and multiple pianos ala Horner.  I loved it.  

[crocodile 8,407]

Yeah, the score has definitely turned out way better than I anticipated.

 

Karol

[blondheim 1,160]

I agree. Does anyone know if this is going to get a CD release?

[1977 1,745]

I hope so.

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

23 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I agree. Does anyone know if this is going to get a CD release?

 

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/poprock/detail/-/art/simon-franglen-avatar-the-way-of-water/hnum/11131277

[thestat 404]

Knife Fight is an amazing track - brings back that old Horner/Don Davis scoring with full on snare drum and anvil percussion.....

[Edmilson 8,680]

11 minutes ago, thestat said:

Knife Fight is an amazing track - brings back that old Horner/Don Davis scoring with full on snare drum and anvil percussion.....

Don't forget the crashing pianos.

[leeallen01 2,169]

'Hard To Starboard' is peak Horner Anvil.

[thestat 404]

The anvil exceeds in Aliens (it is amazing to hear Horner's use of percussion in this track, the snare drums, timpanis and anvil 'speaking' to one another):

 

 

[blondheim 1,160]

34 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

'Hard To Starboard' is peak Horner Anvil.

I’m still suuuper gay for it, yeah.

[1977 1,745]

15 hours ago, thestat said:

The anvil exceeds in Aliens (it is amazing to hear Horner's use of percussion in this track, the snare drums, timpanis and anvil 'speaking' to one another)

 

Isn't this the cue that Cameron replaced in the film with music from the original Alien?

 

If so, bad form.

[tomsmoviemadness 3,466]

I listened to the album for the first time this morning. It won't be in my top 10 of 2022, but Franglen did an excellent job.

His new family theme is gorgeous and the way he uses Horner's material is comendable.

Solid score, I will revisit this more often in the future.

[leeallen01 2,169]

The dissonant strings in 'A New Star' are so effective in that scene as the ships descend. My small local art-house cinema showed the film, which was a nice surprise, and they have basically the perfect cinema, with amazingly comfortable sofa-like chairs and a small 50 seat room with a screen that, although still large, seems like a home cinema. The sound system is the best I've ever experienced, and my seat was vibrating with the sheer force of the bass in that scene as the ships' massive thrusters fire. Incredible moment with Franglen's apocalyptic score accompanying it.

[LSH 1,011]

6 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

The dissonant strings in 'A New Star' are so effective in that scene as the ships descend. My small local art-house cinema showed the film, which was a nice surprise, and they have basically the perfect cinema, with amazingly comfortable sofa-like chairs and a small 50 seat room with a screen that, although still large, seems like a home cinema. The sound system is the best I've ever experienced, and my seat was vibrating with the sheer force of the bass in that scene as the ships' massive thrusters fire. Incredible moment with Franglen's apocalyptic score accompanying it.

 

Where was this?

[leeallen01 2,169]

I think this is a nod to Horner's theme for loss or tragedy.

 

at the very beginning of Sanctuary - 

 

 

Sounds like this repeated phrase in tragic moments from Horner's score, here at 5:25 - 

 

 

And again in the battle's low point at 7:34 -

 

 

[1977 1,745]

Oh man, I'm really loving this score. The shorter album has been a repeat listen on a nearly daily basis, and for me that's huge. I can't remember the last time I listened to a score constantly like this.

 

Franglen knocked it out of the park. I haven't cried listening to a film score (specifically the tracks From Darkness to Light and The Spirit Tree) since the day Horner passed and I played the End Credits from Glory.

 

I'm seeing the film again tomorrow for the 2nd time and can't wait to experience the score in context again.

[Taikomochi 1,201]

Indeed, this is an incredible score, perhaps my favorite of the decade so far. Beyond the score being a loving tribute to Horner, I’m just astounded at how well the themes are developed, all the smaller ideas like Payakan’s theme from its ethereal introduction to its badass rendition closing “A Farewell to Arm”, but especially the family theme. Just admire how Franglen gives it such a cathartic statement in the middle of “Bad Parents” before closing out the piece with a warped version of the same theme. And then just a short while later, he transforms it again in the transcendent “From Darkness to Light”. I’m having a difficult time remembering the last time I heard a new score that was this narratively satisfying.

 

This is a major work of film music composition, pure and simple.

[1977 1,745]

What you said @Taikomochi 😃 I wish I could articulate my appreciation for this score as well as you just did.

 

There are so many little moments that stand out on each listen and grow into earworms.

 

For example, that mournful trumpet statement of the danger motif in the middle of Eclipse. Or the triumphal choir and orchestra blast of the Songcord motif in Bad Parents. Or the twinkly watery synths in the various cues associated with, well, water.

 

I think what distinguishes Franglen's action writing despite it's modernity is the way he integrates the higher registers in a way that creates interest and complements the bassy rythmic elements and string ostinatos. It's way more thoughtful and musically involving than the standard Zimmeresque Bwaam thump-and-grate-the-audience-into-submission-ad-nauseum.

 

[leeallen01 2,169]

I too would like to reiterate my love for this score. I keep discovering new things and new statements of themes, it's just a joy to listen to. 

 

I haven't been this emotionally moved by a score when watching a film like this in years. 

 

The entire 'From Darkness to Light' scene in the film is breathtaking in every way; the drama of the scene, the imagery of Eywa's light, the confidence and power of Kiri. It's all told with the score, which takes center stage to make it all so special to watch.

[Mr. Who 974]

It's a fantastic score and it really tells the story through music. As a huge fan of the Titanic score I also love the titanicisms towards the end of the score, especially in Bad Parents (I think that's the cue) where the metal percussion, the choir and the snare drums etc all just work so well. I also think that the choir motif that appears in this cue plus I think Navi Attack feels a bit like Death of Titanic, when the ship is really going down.

 

I checked Franglen's spotify page and he now has over 7 million listeners which is really impressive compared to other film composers (Zimmer, Williams and Shore are in a league of their own listener's wise) but Franglen has gained a crazy amount of listeners in a really short time so the score is clearly connecting with people. I can't wait to hear what he does next, both in the Avatar sequels, and in any other movie or show he might be working on. Cameron really made the right choice in giving him the job and Franglen describes the process of getting the job in the 1 hour interview.