Film music bomb-out stories

[thestat 359]

A threat for trying to understand why some sizzling careers blew out.

 

1. Don Davis - was it a breakdown with the Wachowskis, him going off to write an opera for years, a temperament, a move to zimmerization? The guy composed this on top of doing a Howard Shore-like job on The Matrix.

 

Joel McNeely - destined to be a massive successor to both Williams and Goldsmith. Composed three massive bombs in a row (Virus, Avengers, Soldier), all with absolutely brilliant scores. Was this industry typecasting? How did Goldsmith survive 1985-1987, he composed some of the biggest bombs available (but also got Oscar nominations....)? The answer is probably cos he had credibility that McNeely could not pull off at the time. The McNeely stuff is up there with anyone in terms of complexity and functionality, and he obviosuly ghosted for Jerry on Air Force One. How can his prospectives end just like that?

 

 

 

[Jay 37,557]

1 minute ago, thestat said:

A threat

[Jurassic Shark 12,257]

He clearly meant a treat.

[Edmilson 7,659]

Maybe Christopher Young? A great composer of orchestral music, especially for horror movies, but whose score for his biggest movie (Spiderman 3) has not been officially released at all and after doing a few blockbusters, most of his career consist of trashy horror crap? I mean, the guy had to go to China to find work in a major action movie (the two Monkey King scores).

[thestat 359]

T-P for my bunghole......

 

Young composed this which is the greatest interpollation of the idiotic Batman HZ crap: Just wonderful music and composition, and massively bombastic and melodic, so authentically Young....

 

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,760]

McNeely's score for THE AVENGERS is a class act.

[Tom Guernsey 2,334]

Surely we'd have to add David Arnold to this list... did he decide to give up on Hollywood scores or did Hollywood stop calling? If the latter, clearly a pretty shocking state of affairs given that his streak of hits writing Bond scores, not to mention ID4 and a decent number of high profile films. Sure there are a few that didn't do quite as well, but nothing that would particularly suggest a downward spiral. His TV work (Good Omens, Dracula etc.) is fine enough although if I didn't know it was him, I'm not sure I'd have recognised it as such.

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

McNeely's score for THE AVENGERS is a class act.

It bloody is as well. Flight of the Mechanical Bees is some top notch action writing, but elsewhere McNeely manages to capture a decent amount of the suave 60s tone (much like Arnold on Bond). For all his early "sounds a bit/lot like John Williams" scores (which are still terrific; he knows what makes a JW score great and runs with it), The Avengers is much more his own thing.

[Jurassic Shark 12,257]

5 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Surely we'd have to add David Arnold to this list... did he decide to give up on Hollywood scores or did Hollywood stop calling?

 

The guy has three children, which isn't exactly compatible with scoring high profile Hollywood films.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,760]

John Williams has three children, all born between 1956, and 1960, and he's on to his second wife.

What's your point, JS?

[Thor 7,700]

SOLDIER might technically be a 'bomb', but I think it's an amazing film -- enormously underrated. Just wanted to get that in there. Seen it some 10 times.

 

I can understand why McNeely isn't getting high profile gigs these days. He's superbly competent within the classical orchestral idiom, but doesn't have much in terms of a striking, original voice. And that type of scoring isn't in vogue these days, at least not in mainstream Hollywood. He'd probably have to look outwards, but then obviously -- not that high profile.

 

Davis, on the other hand, definitely has a striking, original voice. But from what I've gleaned, he's kinda taken a deliberate Goldenthal approach in recent years, scoring only very little and smaller projects (like TOKYO GHOUL), focussing instead on concert music and other things.

 

Young seems to be getting regular work, sometimes even high profile things like that Del Toro series recently -- mixing it up with international projects and other things (like the METROPOLIS thingie). He's not the go-to guy he was in the 90s, sure, but I don't worry for his career.

 

Arnold, however, is a big mystery to me. He has the chops, he has the original voice and he had this huge string of blockbusters up until his last Bond. Then something happened, either deliberate or not. AFAIK, PAUL from 2011 is the last SOLO feature film score that he did. That's 12 years ago. Then he's done some smaller TV and film things since, for example with that Price guy, but nothing to light up the bannisters. I wish someone could ask him.

 

By the way, there are plenty such composers who were kinda huge at one point, but who's then - for various reasons - fizzled off the scene somewhat, either not doing much at all or only doing smaller things that barely register -- Eidelman, Illararamendi, Conti, Broughton, D. Newman, Shearmur, Faltermeyer (he didn't really do much on MAVERICK), Hammer, Levay, Frizzell, Schifrin, Folk, T. Jones etc. etc.

[JTN 2,273]

8 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

not to mention ID4

And let’s mention his very first major score that became kind of his magnum opus, the brilliant score to STARGATE. 
 

[Brónach 1,303]

while i'm not informed on the topic, i'm guessing this thread can be about so many ladies

[Sweeping Strings 2,414]

Am wondering if Arnold became disillusioned after losing the Bond gig to Thomas Newman. 

[Thor 7,700]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

while i'm not informed on the topic, i'm guessing this thread can be about so many ladies

 

Well, some of the big names are still getting regular, high profile gigs. Gudnadottir, Dudley, Portman, Levi, Kanno, Focks etc. Then there are a whole bunch of up-and-coming, like the hugely talented Amelia Warner, Heather Christian or Drum & Lace. But some women have been fairly absent since their glory days. I think Karpman is still doing stuff (I seem to remember a recent series), but not like she used to. Perhaps because she's busy leading that women composer organization. Karaindrou too, but then I read in that other thread she's attached to the new Malick project. That's a huge comeback. Jane Antonia Cornish blasted on to the scene some 20 years ago, but I haven't heard much from her since. Kate Havnevik is a hugely talented composer from Norway that I wish got more high profile gigs, also abroad.

 

Deborah Lurie is one I know that has had a major career fall, but that's her own doing, due to political reasons that are forbidden to talk about here.

[Yavar Moradi 2,655]

Karpman scored the best Disney+ MCU show (Ms. Marvel), after scoring What If? and Lovecraft Country, and is scoring the theatrical feature The Marvels due this year!

 

If you look at her IMDb she’s actually been super busy for a while.

 

Yavar

[Naïve Old Fart 9,760]

4 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Am wondering if Arnold became disillusioned after losing the Bond gig to Thomas Newman. 

 

No. I think that, after Newman took over for SKYFALL, Arnold was forgotten.

It was Arnold's Bond music that was pretty much keeping him afloat, in Hollywood. After 2012, Hollywood wasn't interested in him.

Their loss.

[LSH 971]

Davis and Shearmur are the ones who immediately spring to mind that must have oodles of untapped talent left in them.

[karelm 2,917]

I don't know if I'd even agree with the list of who you are saying had sizzling careers then blew out.  Just because they aren't scoring the blockbusters doesn't mean they blew out.  The composers you mentioned are all in fact very successful.  Honestly the answer comes down to a simple detail that to be scoring big blockbusters, you have to be a very good businessman and have that networking, socializing temperament.  Many composers don't really care for that and would rather be selective and picky but do projects that resonate with them artistically and sacrifice some income to gain more creative freedom and some form of a life.  Some of those you mentioned were former employers or teachers of mine and they are doing very well, just might not be in the sort of projects you care about or that catapult them to A list territory.  

[filmmusic 1,916]

Trevor Jones is a mystery to me.

He composed one of the best scores ever (for the Last of the Mohicans - even people who are not into film music, like or remember his music for this film), but other than that...

(His Dark Crystal should be great too, don't remember it right now)

[Thor 7,700]

3 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Trevor Jones is a mystery to me.

He composed one of the best scores ever (for the Last of the Mohicans - even people who are not into film music, like or remember his music for this film), but other than that...

(His Dark Crystal should be great too, don't remember it right now)

 

He's not a big mystery like Arnold. Several years ago, he relocated back to his native South Africa and started tutoring classes at a local university or college of some sort. Seemed to be a very conscious decision. Then he made a comeback of sorts, with the wonderful TO TOKYO in 2018 (for his son, I think). But yes -- he's DEFINITELY missed! Big time.

[Sweeping Strings 2,414]

22 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

No. I think that, after Newman took over for SKYFALL, Arnold was forgotten.

It was Arnold's Bond music that was pretty much keeping him afloat, in Hollywood. After 2012, Hollywood wasn't interested in him.

Their loss.

They could do worse than have him back for the new guy's debut ... it might need some 'steady hands' on the tiller, because God knows what sort of Bond we'll get next.    

EDIT: Ah, I see Arnold scored last year's Confess Fletch. His first movie score in a decade, by the looks of it.  

[filmmusic 1,916]

16 hours ago, thestat said:

 

 

 

Funny, I was just thinking the other day that I haven't seen this film and I love Kurt Russel!

That cue you posted was great!!

 

edit: Also, another funny thing is that most people cited here are much more talented than people who work today in Hollywood.

(unless those are talented too and are asked by the producers to write music of lower quality)

[Thor 7,700]

28 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Karpman scored the best Disney+ MCU show (Ms. Marvel), after scoring What If? and Lovecraft Country, and is scoring the theatrical feature The Marvels due this year!

 

If you look at her IMDb she’s actually been super busy for a while.

 

Yavar

 

Yeah, I was thinking about LOVECRAFT COUNTRY. Had forgotten about the other ones (due to my complete disinterest in super hero stuff). Glad to see she's busy again. She was in a panel I hosted in Cannes back in 2017, I think it was, and at that point she was there as the leader of the women composer organization. At that point, I hadn't really taken notice of anything she had done since the days of TAKEN and EVERQUEST.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I think it may also have to do with how stressful and complicated the film music business has become: endless rewrites up to the very last second, and some people can manage it, and some people prefer not to deal with that. If you can have an easier time on a lower profile gig and still get a good pay, why not do that?

 

I'm guessing that's part of the reason Williams' started to semi-retire from the 2000's onwards (apart from age), but the film music business was changing radically back then. The fact that he has agreed to score blockbusters up to this decade is quite the miracle when you think about it, particularly with the stories we've heard about Rise of Skywalker and its extremly troubled production.

 

I can't imagine the old-school guys wanting to deal with those changes in the industry unless they really want or need to. 

 

Another recent example that comes to mind is Shore's Hobbit trilogy scores -Jackson was editing until the very last second and that took its toll on the score as well, and they had to call Conrad Pope to help out.

The digital age made it easier and quicker on many aspects, but it also allowed studios to ask for changes and changes with no end in sight until the film is released -sometimes the film keeps changing AFTER it's been released. 

 

All speculation on my part, of course, I've never been in the Hollywood business -but doesn't sound that far off to me.

[Knight of Ren 808]

One of the examples that come to mind would be Joe Kraemer. He seemed like a really big promise in the action blockbusters, with Jack Reacher and his excellent Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, but after that he has done only a couple of small projects. I think I read something about some disagreements between him and director Christopher McQuarrie, and it's a shame, because not only he got replaced in the following Mission Impossible films, but he has almost disappeared completely from Hollywood. Here's one of my favorite cues from Rogue Nation that shows how great he is.

 

[Edmilson 7,659]

Yeah, Rogue Nation is a wonderful score, one of the best for action movies of the last decade (and probably THE best, depending on how you define action movies). 

 

I wonder if his alleged problems with such an influent, powerful filmmaker like McQuarrie (and maybe Cruise?) made him be blacklisted in Hollywood. 

[Mr. Who 925]

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

No. I think that, after Newman took over for SKYFALL, Arnold was forgotten.

It was Arnold's Bond music that was pretty much keeping him afloat, in Hollywood. After 2012, Hollywood wasn't interested in him.

Their loss.

I don’t have a link to the twitter post but Arnold addresses this last year and I’m pretty sure he said it was his choice to work less And on smaller things. He has a lot of animals and seems to be enjoying life. I’m sure he could score a high profile movie if he wanted to.

26 minutes ago, Knight of Ren said:

One of the examples that come to mind would be Joe Kraemer. He seemed like a really big promise in the action blockbusters, with Jack Reacher and his excellent Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, but after that he has done only a couple of small projects. I think I read something about some disagreements between him and director Christopher McQuarrie, and it's a shame, because not only he got replaced in the following Mission Impossible films, but he has almost disappeared completely from Hollywood. Here's one of my favorite cues from Rogue Nation that shows how great he is.

 

It’s a shame that we never got to hear the full theme in the movie. Love this theme suite.

1 hour ago, karelm said:

I don't know if I'd even agree with the list of who you are saying had sizzling careers then blew out.  Just because they aren't scoring the blockbusters doesn't mean they blew out.  The composers you mentioned are all in fact very successful.  Honestly the answer comes down to a simple detail that to be scoring big blockbusters, you have to be a very good businessman and have that networking, socializing temperament.  Many composers don't really care for that and would rather be selective and picky but do projects that resonate with them artistically and sacrifice some income to gain more creative freedom and some form of a life.  Some of those you mentioned were former employers or teachers of mine and they are doing very well, just might not be in the sort of projects you care about or that catapult them to A list territory.  

Good point. Not everybody wants to work on blockbuster films. Scoring smaller films with people you like to work with can be just as rewarding and can be less hectic.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,760]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

... I’m pretty sure he said it was his choice to work less And on smaller things. He has a lot of animals and seems to be enjoying life. I’m sure he could score a high profile movie if he wanted to.

 

It would be interesting to know what he has been offered, since 2012, as, apart from some TV stuff (and the aforementioned Fletch movie), he seems to have disappeared off the radar.

It's comforting to know that Arnold's last (to date) Bond score, is by far his best.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

 God knows what sort of Bond we'll get next.

 

Regeneration: it's a lottery 

[JTN 2,273]

2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Their loss.

And ours.

[a good little monkey 23]

Would not call it a "bomb-out", but another composer I miss is Nicholas Hooper. I know his Harry Potter scores were somewhat divisive, but after the JW trio they're my favorites and I keep hoping for another score from him. Looks like he hasn't done a movie since 2016 and has moved on to writing books, so I imagine it will be a long wait, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

Just beautiful stuff...

 

 

[Mr. Who 925]

5 minutes ago, a good little monkey said:

Would not call it a "bomb-out", but another composer I miss is Nicholas Hooper. I know his Harry Potter scores were somewhat divisive, but after the JW trio they're my favorites and I keep hoping for another score from him. Looks like he hasn't done a movie since 2016 and has moved on to writing books, so I imagine it will be a long wait, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

Just beautiful stuff...

 

 

Love Hooper's work. I can recommend his nature documentary scores. Sadly they're not narrative in the way that the HP scores are but there's beautiful music there.

[Edmilson 7,659]

And what happened with Klaus Badelt? He was one of Zimmer's assistants in the late 90s/early 2000s and then got some solo gigs of his own.

 

Then, he was credited as the composer for the first Pirates of the Caribbean, even though this was just for some stupid legal reason and he was just one of the many, many composers in that project (I mean, there's probably more people who wrote music for that movie than it has castmembers with speaking lines).

 

Still, even though he was credited as the author of the ubiquitous Pirates theme, he just kinda disappeared later. Which is unfortunate, for he could've enjoyed a career as successful as Powell, HGW, Djawadi, Balfe, Jackman, etc.

[JTN 2,273]

12 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I mean, there's probably more people who wrote music for that movie than it has castmembers with speaking lines

😄So true. 
 

I like Badelt’s score to THE TIME MACHINE a lot. He worked on several other projects such as RESCUE DAWN, but then he slowly faded away. I guess in order to be working in Hollywood you need to have good box office results because execs tend to think that if a movie flops, the score has something to do with it. And we all know that can’t be further from the truth. Awful films often have great scores. But after a couple of financial failures composers are associated with them and aren’t asked for big projects anymore. Maybe that’s what happened to Badelt. Too bad because he could have become what Hans Zimmer never did. 

 

 

[JNHFan2000 3,004]

Don't know if anybody mentioned him already, but Bruce Broughton belongs here as well. He was big in the 80s and 90s and then he was just gone

[Thor 7,700]

14 hours ago, Edmilson said:

And what happened with Klaus Badelt? He was one of Zimmer's assistants in the late 90s/early 2000s and then got some solo gigs of his own.

 

Yeah, Badelt would qualify. I mean, he's had some later, good things, like 30 COULEUR (2012) or QUEEN OF THE DESERT (2015), but nothing really high profile, AFAIK.

[JTN 2,273]

9 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

Don't know if anybody mentioned him already, but Bruce Broughton belongs here as well.

I was about to mention him. 
He’s not gone, though. He composed the main theme and the score to the first episode of THE ORVILLE.
Years ago he was involved in an Oscar controversy and his nomination was revoked and it probably affected his career (you can read about it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Broughton#Academy_Awards_controversy)

I had a great talk with him a couple of years ago, he’s a lovely man and a very talented composer. 

[Jay 37,557]

22 minutes ago, JTW said:

I was about to mention him. 
He’s not gone, though. He composed the main theme to THE ORVILLE.

 

He composed the score to the entire first episode. 

[Thor 7,700]

I mentioned Broughton in my earlier, long post. I think it's quite telling that one needs someone like MacFarlane - who very much likes to nurture the old-fashioned orchestral score of the 70s, 80s and 90s - to get some of those oldtimers back in focus. McNeely has benefitted from the "MacFarlane Connection" too.

[Brónach 1,303]

MacFarlane is a nerd.

[JTN 2,273]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

MacFarlane - who very much likes to nurture the old-fashioned orchestral score of the 70s, 80s and 90s - to get some of those oldtimers back in focus.

MacFarlane is a big film music fan. He plays the piano very well. And apparently he’s a big fan of Alan Silvestri.

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,760]

41 minutes ago, Brónach said:

MacFarlane is a nerd.

 

He "da-da-da"s a mean INDY'S FIRST ADVENTURE 

[Brónach 1,303]

lol where??

[TolkienSS 410]

Doesn't count as bombed out because he's still working, but a favorite composer who fell off a cliff for me is Danny Elfman.

He's arguably in the Top 5 film composers of the last 30-something years, but in recent years, whenever he's scoring an action or superhero film, once his forte, I find his music barely coherent and aimless.

Especially his Doctor Strange score.

[Brónach 1,303]

It's a good score.

[Edmilson 7,659]

16 minutes ago, Brónach said:

lol where??

Here:

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,760]

Absolutely hilarious... and I was "da-da-da" ing along, to it 

[GerateWohl 4,499]

The looks of the family are pretty much the same as of my own family when I listen to filmmusic in the kitchen. And I am not singing to it.

[Brónach 1,303]

I believe that clip may only be funny to us.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Many of the named composers in this thread have had careers in Hollywood spanning over a decade, and continue to work in their field (even if it's not on blockbusters). In my opinion that's far from bombing out! Not everyone can be a Zimmer, Williams, Elfman, Goldsmith, and that's entirely the point - the long, high-profile careers of those composers are the exception rather than the rule in an industry that regularly chews up and spits out talent at all levels. 

 

Speaking of Elfman, while he may still be working in Hollywood after four decades it certainly hasn't been easy on him - he's been one of the loudest critics of the shifting culture around modern film production and temp tracking, and has admitted that he's struggled to find work. It's harder than ever these days to stay relevant in an industry more obsessed with bottom lines and profits than ever. Zimmer is one of the only "traditional", pre-2000s composers to have not only survived the transition, but thrived - indeed, he capitalised on it by scaling up the composer sweatshop model to a profitable production line of ghostwriters and content merchants, which many production houses have imitated. I have mixed feelings on the matter - on one hand he's helped media composition become more accessible than ever to burgeoning composers, but on the other hand that model has exploited those same composers to a terrible degree; years of shit-kicking and slave labour, burnout is high, and the few composers who manage to rise above it often spend the rest of their careers waiting for it all to fall apart. 

 

End rant. As a working composer I have a lot of opinions around the concept of success in this field. It's a lot more complex than people realise.

[Alex 2,838]

You don’t hear much from David Newman these days in terms of composing. 
 

“Matilda” should have kicked off his career big time in my opinion.

 

Joe Kraemer came and dropped one of the best action scores of the decade, and then was unceremoniously booted from Hollywood because of his shitty friend McQuarrie.