HOOK Ultimate Edition - MUSIC Discussion

[bollemanneke 3,593]

Does the album version of We Don't Wanna Grow Up contain any unique material that the film version doesn't have?

[John Takis 242]

10 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Does the album version of We Don't Wanna Grow Up contain any unique material that the film version doesn't have?

 

Nope. It's the same performances, just edited down.

[GerateWohl 5,040]

Just listening to the said for the first time (which is great). And just found on disk 2 track 1, Stop That Clock!, at about 1:03 shortly a familiar tune from another favourite score of mine: "Have Another Cherry!" from The Witches of Eastwick".

[Jay 39,428]

That bit at 1:03 is heard 4 times in the score!

 

1-22 Hook's Epiphany 0:18-0:48
1-25 Hook's Lesson 0:00-0:32
1-25 Hook's Lesson 1:19-1:34
2-01 Stop That Clock 1:03-1:21

[Doo_liss 6,423]

I think in this case it's derived from Stick With Me

[Jay 39,428]

I called it the "Stick With Me Supporting Ostinato" in my list of themes.

 

John Takis' liner notes describe it as "A mincing humoresque motif [...] derived from the harmonies and intervals of “Stick With Me,”" and later "A disarming comical motif derived from “Stick With Me”"

[QuartalHarmony 675]

Has anyone worked out what each of the bits of the Concertina Medley (D3 T23) are?

 

The only bit I can identify are the two opening parts from Pirate Sequence (0:00 Down in the Deep Below and 0:35 James Hook, son of a sea cook)

 

@Jay, do you have a list you’re keeping to yourself for the time being, or do we need to combine our ears and brains to work it out ourselves?

 

Mark

 

 

[SF1_freeze 136]

Received my Set finally, absolutely fantastic!

Thank you to all the people involved for making this gem a reality!

 

One of my favorite new discoveries are the low below B theme appareances (don't know a better name, how do you call it?).

I like this upbeat piraty melody better than the main low below theme (A theme?), which appears in the refrain and is as far as i know the only part carried over into the film.

Or did you encounter any moments of this B theme in the final film soundtrack?

 

[QuartalHarmony 675]

A timestamp of exactly which bit you’re referring to would help.

 

Do you mean Down in the Deep Below (D3 T8, 0:08)? Or something else?

[Jay 39,428]

I have no notes or information about the concertina medley.  It was a bunch of separate recordings that were made as options for Spielberg to play on set for Bob Hoskins to mime playing a concertina to.  But none of it got used and I don't even remember if you see Smee with a concertina at all in the final film - I think David Crosby has it instead!

 

@Goldfingers might know more!

[Holko 10,231]

Does anyone else have this problem where they start singing "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend" whenever Mothers' melody comes up?

 

 

...no? Just me?

[BrotherSound 2,295]

2 hours ago, SF1_freeze said:

I like this upbeat piraty melody better than the main low below theme (A theme?), which appears in the refrain and is as far as i know the only part carried over into the film.

Or did you encounter any moments of this B theme in the final film soundtrack?

It was part of the original (unrecorded) version of 5M5 Show Us Your Hook, but was replaced with ‘Stick With Me’ when revised.

 

Here’s a mockup from @ragoz350:

 

 

 

[Doo_liss 6,423]

15 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

It was part of the original (unrecorded) version of 5M5 Show Us Your Hook, but was replaced with ‘Stick With Me’ when revised.

 

Here’s a mockup from @ragoz350:

 

 

 

Is there a version of the score, where Stick With Me doesn't appear until Hook's Epiphany?

[GerateWohl 5,040]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

That bit at 1:03 is heard 4 times in the score!

 

1-22 Hook's Epiphany 0:18-0:48
1-25 Hook's Lesson 0:00-0:32
1-25 Hook's Lesson 1:19-1:34
2-01 Stop That Clock 1:03-1:21

But it's this, isn't it?

 

 

[Jay 39,428]

18 minutes ago, Presto said:

Is there a version of the score, where Stick With Me doesn't appear until Hook's Epiphany?

 

No because it appears twice in Hook's Entrance and once in Draw Your Sword

 

 

1 minute ago, GerateWohl said:

But it's this, isn't it?

 

No.  Not the same, just similar

[Goldfingers 132]

It's hard to determine the significance of the different pieces in the Smee's Concertina Medley. 'Low Below' is recognizable, but as for the rest, I don't know. And it's challenging to ascertain where each of these parts should have been used in the story.

 

Initially, Smee was intended to always have a concertina attached to his waist. There are several scenes where the concertina was supposed to appear, such as Hook's preparation scene before his first appearance, his speech, the negotiation with Tinkerbell, Hook's dinner, the lesson scene, the baseball scene (the script mentions that Mr. Smee was supposed to play 'Take me out to the ball game'), the final battle, and Smee's escape, during which one of the mermaids plays the concertina.
 

The concertina serves as a means to add excitement to Captain Hook's life. Smee plays it at his request to create an epic atmosphere or to intensify the drama of the scene that Captain Hook is experiencing, often punctuated by a humorous moment when Hook interrupts the action to address Smee: 'Smee! Appropriate musical under scoring!' or 'Smee! Where is the musical accompaniment for this most dramatic moment of mine?'

 

In the movie, the concertina disappears from Smee's character. I am certain that the concertina held by Tickles, played by David Crosby, is the same concertina that Smee was supposed to carry. There isn't a single scene where Tickles is seen without his concertina, but it is never heard being played.

 

I believe they abandoned the idea because it potentially disrupted the scene by diverting attention from the action and limiting the possibilities for orchestrating the scene afterward.

[Jay 39,428]

AFAIK the rest of the little pieces, after the first 2 that clearly riff of Low Below material, are completely original ideas Williams wrote in late 1990 or early 1991, and then never returned to when writing the score for the film that fall.

[Holko 10,231]

Huh. I thought at least some of them would be references to old songs or shanties or something.

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

The williams writes great authentic sailor music!

[Jay 39,428]

Well, I said as far as I know!  I don't know if anyone undertook any research to see if there are any known public domain compositions in there.

[QuartalHarmony 675]

We need someone who’s an expert on sea shanties. I’m I don’t know anyone who is!

[bollemanneke 3,593]

2 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

It was part of the original (unrecorded) version of 5M5 Show Us Your Hook, but was replaced with ‘Stick With Me’ when revised.

 

Here’s a mockup from @ragoz350:

 

 

 

That is SO fantastic! Are there any other mocked-up un-recorded things for Hook?

[BrotherSound 2,295]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Are there any other mocked-up un-recorded things for Hook?

 

Not that I'm aware of. There's not a whole lot else of note to mock up, but I would love to hear the unrecorded section of 15M4 The Next Morning that was replaced by an insert prior to the session. Say, @ragoz350 or @Datameister, want to take that on sometime?

[Doo_liss 6,423]

22 minutes ago, BrotherSound said:

 

Not that I'm aware of. There's not a whole lot else of note to mock up, but I would love to hear the unrecorded section of 15M4 The Next Morning that was replaced by an insert prior to the session. Say, @ragoz350 or @Datameister, want to take that on sometime?

As written The Bedroom opening.

[Goldfingers 132]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

AFAIK the rest of the little pieces, after the first 2 that clearly riff of Low Below material, are completely original ideas Williams wrote in late 1990 or early 1991, and then never returned to when writing the score for the film that fall.

 

What would be interesting to know is whether John Williams composed the music in anticipation of what was happening in the script or if it was just random compositions that they tested on set. In my opinion, it must have been anticipated, but given the duration of the medley and the number of scenes in which the concertina appears in the script, it seems too short to me.

[DrTenma 117]

Finally I got my copy! I'm loving it so far. My only criticism is with the case, lately lalaland cases are quite cheap and the plastic gets scratched even looking at it.

[GerateWohl 5,040]

In many ways the Hook score reminds me of Return of the Jedi. Especially listening to The Ultimate War. The massive amount of themes changing hands, the comedic action music. 

Even though I confess, I am rather a fan of Williams' more recent way of action writing which less apears as a stacato potpourri of themes but more motivic and has to my mind a more elegant structure overall. 

On the other hand, the theme variations towards the end are really wonderful and the orchestra sounds just great. Sounds really like a lot of hard work. Imagining an orchestra playing the last 40 minutes of the score in one go must be exhausting for them. 

Are there live to projection concerts for Hook by the way?

[SF1_freeze 136]

16 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

A timestamp of exactly which bit you’re referring to would help.

 

Do you mean Down in the Deep Below (D3 T8, 0:08)? Or something else?

 

Yes, this melody exactly. It also appears at the start of the smees concertina medley and of course in the instrumental low below.

 

In the mockup it appears when Smee marches starts, what a pity this version wasn't recorded, it's great.

[Luke Skywalker 1,939]

4 hours ago, DrTenma said:

Finally I got my copy! I'm loving it so far. My only criticism is with the case, lately lalaland cases are quite cheap and the plastic gets scratched even looking at it.

Yeah i think i got it twice or thrice from the shelf… and the third time i noticed slipping scratches on the back. And i could swear those were not before…. And the shelf is not tight with cds…

[DrTenma 117]

Maybe this has been answered before but does someone know who sings Stick with Me and the Never Song? Didn't saw it in the song credits...

[Jay 39,428]

On 05/12/2023 at 3:27 PM, Jay said:

It is unknown who sang those.  None of the paperwork from 1991 had this information.  Mike made every possible attempt to find out, but no leads resulted in any answers. 

 

We're actually hoping this release might cause those two singers to come out of the woodwork and identify themselves!

 

[Jay 39,428]

Mike posted more information on FSM about the unknown Never Song and Stick With Me singers

 

The songs were sent to many of the singers on the project and to key people in the session singer community going back nearly two years, and no one could ID those voices. (And I was quite paranoid that doing this would result in news about the release leaking out!)

 

The Guild ultimately asserted that our efforts were satisfactory and that we could proceed with the release of the tracks, with the understanding that payment in kind would be made if we ever find out who the voices are, and also that I see that their credits are added to any new printings of the packaging, plus update the metadata.

 

The Guild actually didn't have anything on file for the movie whatsoever, not even the choir list (yet they did on the Home Alone scores, so it's a mystery).

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=152698&forumID=1&archive=0

[Brando 2,161]

Perhaps we’ll find out more of what the pirate ladies choreographed and if that has anything to do with the music! Coming out next Friday.

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 5,296]

2 hours ago, Brando said:

and if that has anything to do with the music!

 

Yes it does! Vincent was also one of the singers on Low Below.

[Smeltington 1,569]

On 13/01/2024 at 4:58 PM, Jay said:

and also that I see that their credits are added to any new printings of the packaging, plus update the metadata.

 

Where can we find the metadata? Is he referring to CD text?

[Holko 10,231]

On 14/01/2024 at 1:18 AM, Brando said:

Perhaps we’ll find out more of what the pirate ladies choreographed and if that has anything to do with the music! Coming out next Friday.

 

 

This is out and uploaded now!

They talk about the production, Steven, Robin, Bob, the choreography, John Williams, and for a surprise at the end,

Spoiler

even Mike jumps in with some raw takes of them performing!

 

[QuartalHarmony 675]

The tech geek in me was delighted to see the tracks were recorded with Dolby SR. Another reason it all sounds so good.

 

Mark

[ThePenitentMan1 1,017]

Been wanting to make this meme as soon as I learned the lyrics to Stick With Me:

 

[ThePenitentMan1 1,017]

@Jay In regards to the LLL 3CD Disc 1's Pirate Town and Presenting The Hook, I've been able to get a reasonably clean split for I'll Take Those Shoes and Presenting The Hook using phase inversion with the Vocal Version track, but I'm wondering if it'd be possible to cleanly split off the other cues too.

 

What are the timecodes for Arrival At Neverland, Slicing The Hand, and I'll Take Those Shoes?

[Jay 39,428]

• 0:00-1:23 = 5M2 Arrival At Neverland
• 1:23-2:44 = 5M3 Slicing The Hand
• 2:44-3:32 = 5M4 I'll Take Those Shoes
• 3:32-end = 5M5 Show Us Your Hook

[QuartalHarmony 675]

Are we any closer to having one of your spreadsheets for Hook, @Jay?

[Jay 39,428]

I think everyone should enjoy the music as presented for a while longer first.

[QuartalHarmony 675]

Oh, shame…

[Trope 755]

14 hours ago, Jay said:

I think everyone should enjoy the music as presented for a while longer first.

I listened to the full score again after a few months and the music is just too good. There isn’t a single dull or uninteresting moment, and the way he weaves the themes together so seamlessly makes it feel like you’re listening to a concert work rather than something written to picture. This may be Williams’ most complex score, and definitely remains one of my favourites.

[Alan 702]

I can't get enough of this release. There's so much to digest and such a definitive presentation. Hook has jumped right to near the top of my all time favourite Williams scores.

[bollemanneke 3,593]

I agree. Except that Pick 'em Up is just no main program material.

[Trope 755]

49 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I agree. Except that Pick 'em Up is just no main program material.

The only alterations I have made to my preferred complete score program are as follows: 

 

- Replace Prologue (Extended Version) with Prologue - I prefer the takes used on the regular OST Prologue and I’m not a big fan of the viola Peter Pan statement.

- Remove We Don’t Wanna Grow Up - Potentially blasphemous I know, but I consider it to be a source cue of sorts, and not having to endure it makes me want to revisit the score from beginning to end much more often.

- Replace Banning Back Home (Film Version) with Banning Back Home (Extended Version)

- Place The Face of Pan (Choral Version) in the main program

- Replace Pick ‘Em Up with The Never-Band

- Place the OST version of The Never-Feast in the main program

- Replace When You’re Alone with the instrumental version - I’m still debating this choice, but I enjoy keeping the score song-less.

 

Other than those few minor adjustments, I adore listening to the score from start to finish, and being transported on an incredible musical by the maestro.

 

[Jay 39,428]

5 minutes ago, Trope said:

Place the OST version of The Never-Feast in the main program

 

Why?

[bollemanneke 3,593]

Ah yes, prologue extended is weird. What I mostly dislike about is the clearly inferior takes. Should be bonus material.

[Trope 755]

22 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Why?

I like hearing more statements of the awesome Lost Boys theme (or whatever that great theme is officially called)! Honestly I love both versions, but from a purely musical perspective, I prefer the flow of ideas in the OST version a fraction more.