John Williams receives 54th Oscar nomination for Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny!

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

11 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

The nominations are still accurate.

I think this is open to dispute, but it's too early in the morning for me. 😄

[Bespin 8,483]

1 hour ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I think this is open to dispute, but it's too early in the morning for me. 😄

 

You can't, on one hand, express pride in John Williams' 54 nominations and, on the other hand, claim that Oscar nominations mean nothing. You can't acknowledge that the only nomination received for the latest Indiana Jones for its score is a strong "message" (a message aimed at those idiots who thought they could bluff everyone by creating a script and a film around a digital de-aging gadget that isn't even perfected) and then assert that Oscar nominations mean nothing.

 

Of course, one can be envious of never being nominated; that I can understand. Is it your case?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

He is only 6 noms behind Disney?

 

I hope he beats him someday. But that is too many scores-years...

 

It's not fair disney got so many noms as a producer. There is no comparison

[Bespin 8,483]

7 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

It's not fair disney got so many noms as a producer. There is no comparison

 

Indeed. Additionally, John Williams is the only one who has had nominations in seven successive decades. The 60s, The 70s, The 80s, The 90s, The 2000s, The 2010s and the 2020s.

[Toillion 215]

24 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

He is only 6 noms behind Disney?

 

I hope he beats him someday. But that is too many scores-years...

 

I was also thinking about this yesterday. What are some Oscar nomination snubs from the past that would have gotten Williams the record over Disney? Jurassic Park, Dracula, Hook, Far and Away, Star Wars Prequels, Crystal Skull?

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

The nominations are still accurate. The winners, well, it's a pat on the back by the business to the business, which once held greater significance, but still remains prestigious... but that's "political".

If the nominations are "accurate" but the winners are sometimes selected for reasons other than artistic or technical merit, then indeed, what's the point of it.

 

And the nominations don't always get it right. Hence the oft-used "snubbed".

 

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

You can't, on one hand, express pride in John Williams' 54 nominations and, on the other hand, claim that Oscar nominations mean nothing.

I'll side with Jimmy Kimmel on this when he joked:

 

"Only Walt Disney has been nominated for more Oscars than John Williams. He’s been nominated 53 times. He’s only won five, which is honestly not that great."

 

But if we're to say that the Oscars have value for its "accurate" nominations despite the not-so-accurate outcomes, then it would be accurate to say that Williams is the biggest winner behind ol' Walt... And sure, I'll unfurl my JWFan pride flag and let it sway gently in the breeze for that.

[Edmilson 7,466]

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

 

Indeed. Additionally, John Williams is the only one who has had nominations in seven successive decades. The 60s, The 70s, The 80s, The 90s, The 2000s, The 2010s and the 2020s.

He could have done more and be nominated in the 40s (when he was still a teen) and 50s! 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

2 hours ago, Toillion said:

 

I was also thinking about this yesterday. What are some Oscar nomination snubs from the past that would have gotten Williams the record over Disney? Jurassic Park, Dracula, Hook, Far and Away, Star Wars Prequels, Crystal Skull?

 

I'm with you for Hook and Jurassic Park. I think they were vastly overshadowed in their respective years by more serious scores. It's unfortunate in my view that a film dealing with subject matter like SL automatically gets more serious attention to its music than a fun adventure score, despite both having equal craft and quality.

 

I also strikes me odd that others are considering a general lack of nominations as a snub. Most actors and directors work for decades in serious roles/films to earn a nomination, and maybe, just maybe, a win. Willliams has had that honour five times, and as he retires and produces fewer truly original ideas, perhaps that honour should be recognising more contemporary artists who are reaching the top of their game? I'd argue for example that Powell's animation work in general shows the sort of skill and cinematic quality that should get him the sort of attention from composing circles as Williams did in his earlier days.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The point is most nominations today are not for composers on top of their game… so i can live if williams gets nominated…

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

20 hours ago, Jay said:

23 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

That's three less than I counted (twice) in the filmography, so someone could check which three are excluded (and why), supposing the rest is a match. Someone, because I'm too lazy.

 

My list is accurate.

 

Alright, but then the site's filmography is wrong (of my count was off twice). But where?

7 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

He is only 6 noms behind Disney?

 

5.

 

[Jay 37,369]

25 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Alright, but then the site's filmography is wrong (of my count was off twice). But where?

 

 

On 16/08/2023 at 9:31 AM, Jay said:

For Superman IV, he only wrote themes; Alexander Courage scored the film.  This puts it in the same category as Yes, Giorgio and Solo: A Star Wars Story.  In my opinion, none of these three should qualify as a "film scored by John Williams"

 

Likewise, for The Screaming Woman, there's one cue by John in the final cut, but it could have been written for a different Universal project and then tracked in - we don't know.  So again, doesn't count as a film scored by John Williams in my book.  Likewise, for Stark Fear, John only wrote the "party music", the film was scored by Lawrence V. Fisher.

 

Sergeant Ryker isn't really a movie.  It's an extended re-cut of two episodes of the TV series "Kraft Suspense Theater" that aired in 1963 - Season 1 episode 1 "The Case Against Paul Ryker Part 1" and Season 1 episode 2 "The Case Against Paul Ryker Part 2".  When it was recut into a "film" in 1968, John didn't write any new music for it, the "movie" just contains the tv scores he wrote 5 years prior.

Likewise Nightmare In Chicago doesn't count for the same reason - that's just another episode of "Kraft Suspense Theater", season 1 episode 21 "Once Upon A Savage Night", recut into a "film".  And John didn't write any new music for that either, it just contains the score he wrote for the TV episode.

 

You Are Welcome, The Katherine Reed Story, The Unfinished Journey, A Timeless Call, and Dear Basketball don't count because they are short films, not feature length films.  21 minutes, 15 minutes, 21 minutes, 7 minutes, and 6 minutes respectively.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

39 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

The point is most nominations today are not for composers on top of their game… so i can live if williams gets nominated…

 

No, they're not, but isn't that what the oscars really should be?

 

I can live with it too - I haven't taken the oscars seriously for years. I just think the nominations this year were pretty bad and that no one in the list deserves the award.

[Bellosh 3,419]

Guys do you hear that?

 

It's all 4 of the other composers trying to come up with a theme as good as the raiders march ...

 

yeah. nothing. And if you did hear something it was probably shit.

 

This score deserves the award for the raiders march alone.  It's not like it's going up against Chariots of fucking Fire or anything...

[Once 605]

I would just love to experience Williams receiving an Oscar in my lifetime...

[Edmilson 7,466]

On 23/01/2024 at 1:51 PM, Taikomochi said:

Some salt for y’all to enjoy

And it's not only these idiots on Reddit: former Forber contributor Scott Mendelson, on his new Substack newsletter, has also whined about Williams getting a nom over Pemberton:

 

 

Honestly, I don't know what people saw on those Spider-Verse scores. They're definitely not for me with their mixing of 70 different musical genres in a single cue.

[crumbs 14,317]

Why is Williams the only composer being singled out in all these articles? Do they not realise 4 other scores were also nominated? Or are those scores exempt from criticism because they're attached to critical darlings?

 

This just reiterates that most scores aren't judged on their merits anymore, but the merits of the film they're attached to.

 

Good on the music branch for sticking to their guns. IMO no musical composition from 2023 comes close to Helena's Theme. Williams earned his nomination for those two arrangements plus Prologue, The Airport, Syracuse and Centuries Join Hands alone (which contain probably 15 seconds of pre-existing material combined).

[King Mark 3,631]

Who cares about those Reddit people. I'd be nice to see Williams win for the first time in JWfan history.

[Tom 4,661]

I don't want to be the bad guy.  But, evidently, it remains my yearly duty to point out that Williams has exactly .000001% chance of winning (if that).  Be happy for the nomination, if you wish, but that "is" the award.  

 

I would love to be wrong, but I have been following this since the mid-90s.  Barring some crazy influence that KK or such has with voters, its done.  I leave you with this:

 

 

[Trope 527]

At 6:03 in this video, this imbecile says that there was not a single original composition in the entire Dial of Destiny score. What tiny amount of respect and good will I had for this guy disappeared in an instant. I usually prefer to restrain myself, but this fucking moron is so dense it’s unbelievable. I can’t even put into words how much his asinine comments rubbed me the wrong way.
 

After all the JW-hate going around due to his latest nomination, I thought to revisit the Dial score myself for the first time in a few months. Literally after the opening few minutes of the Prologue, I completely understand why this was nominated and even deserves a win. It’s incredible music, more sophisticated, evocative and thematically/orchestrally-competent than any other film score of 2023. And I personally love Ludwig’s Oppenheimer score! But to say JW doesn’t deserve a nomination for Dial on its own merits demonstrates the highest level of musical ignorance.

 

Also, Schaffrillas goes on to claim that there’s no way JW even wrote the Dial score because he’s “fucking 90 years old”. Once again, a relatively influential voice on the internet spreading the completely baseless lie that JW doesn’t write his own music anymore. The man has more talent and creativity than 10 other film composers put together, and for goodness’ sake, he’s in good health and touring the freaking world conducting symphony orchestras! So he’s more than capable of writing his own music, even if he uses a little additional help now and then, like he has done on several projects over the years (so it’s nothing new).

 

Just because he’s been nominated so frequently in the past for the incredible music he’s written does not mean he has no right to be nominated for his next masterwork. Imagine saying an incredible athlete shouldn’t be allowed to win the gold medal this year because they’ve won so many in the past and it’s time to give someone else a shot. Come on!! 

 

For all the talk of JW-bias, I sense a stronger than usual amount of anti-JW sentiment in much of the discussion I’ve seen online. And frankly, people being salty and flat out mad that a 91 year-old film composing legend is being nominated for an Oscar for an outstanding score, even if it’s for a less than stellar film, is baffling to me.

[crumbs 14,317]

48 minutes ago, Trope said:

Once again, a relatively influential voice on the internet spreading the completely baseless lie

 

I've never heard of the guy  He has a whopping 6700 subscribers on YouTube.

 

Based on his comments, he didn't even listen to the soundtrack, which has barely any pre-existing music.

 

Just add him to the pile of ignorant screeching morons that rely on clickbait and outrage porn to earn a living. These self-proclaimed "content creators" aren't even scraping the bottom of the barrel, they're the rotting mould beneath it.

[Trope 527]

6 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

I've never heard of the guy  He has a whopping 6700 subscribers on YouTube.

 

Based on his comments, he didn't even listen to the soundtrack, which has barely any pre-existing music.

 

Just add him to the pile of ignorant screeching morons that rely on clickbait and outrage porn to earn a living. These self-proclaimed "content creators" aren't even scraping the bottom of the barrel, they're the rotting mould beneath it.

The video was posted on his second channel. His main channel has a lot more subscribers: 

 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Really don't get why everyone expected Spider Verse a shoo-in to get a nomination.  It was clever but not even the fourth best Spider Man score.  Superhero avatars always tend to overinflate the quality of certain scores (The Batman last year).  The Oscar hopes for that movie in general were very forced (like when people expected No Way Home to get a best picture nom)

 

[crumbs 14,317]

2 hours ago, Trope said:

The video was posted on his second channel. His main channel has a lot more subscribers: 

 

 

I skimmed through to roughly 9 minutes in and the first thing I hear is him describing the "song" Canto Bight.

 

As if it wasn't obvious enough the guy has no idea what he's talking about.

[Damien F 1,742]

Those kind of stupid outrage videos are proven to get plenty of views and Disney content is often the target. It appeals to the lowest of the low.

 

Also, unless a new JW score contains a "song" as EPIC!!!!! as Duel of the Fates, some people are going to say it's a bad score. I think JW's scores since TFA require attention to recognise their quality, which I don't think the haters are giving it. I don't know if that makes me sound elitist or a JW fanboy, but I think it's true.

[crumbs 14,317]

53 minutes ago, Damien F said:

I think JW's scores since TFA require attention to recognise their quality, which I don't think the haters are giving it. I don't know if that makes me sound elitist or a JW fanboy, but I think it's true.

 

I don't think it's elitist at all, there's plenty of truth to it.

 

Williams' modern style is less "direct," less reliant on simple melodies and more orchestrationally complex than scores of prior decades, layered and rich with overlapping counterpoint. It's music that opens up and rewards upon multiple listens, but suffers greatly in modern mixing rooms where hundreds of layers of competing SFX are given priority.

 

It's also the exact opposite of modern scoring trends, where scores hit people over the head with repetitive drum loops, "minimalist" piano solos and obnoxiously loud sampled brass. In their defense, this successfully cuts through the swamp of SFX but hardly rewards as a standalone listening experience.

 

Casuals simply don't have the patience to "unlock" Williams' modern scores, instead lamenting why every score doesn't sound like Duel of the Fates (or worse, a trailer remix version of Duel of the Fates). They can't seem to grasp that Williams excels at nuance, a trait few other modern composers seem to possess.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

For me Dial of Destiny is really Williams' best score since The Force Awakens.

Listening again to it the day before yesterday I even recognized, that these two scores have something in common. There are some passages where I thought, this or that could actually be from The Force Awakens.

Anyway, I love it.

And even though I didn't enjoy the movie itself that much, I was heavily enjoying the score at watching the movie in cinema.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

6 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

I even recognized, that these two scores have something in common.

 

They're composed by the same person*.

 

 

 

 

*William Ross.

[HunterTech 994]

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

Just add him to the pile of ignorant screeching morons that rely on clickbait and outrage porn to earn a living. These self-proclaimed "content creators" aren't even scraping the bottom of the barrel, they're the rotting mould beneath it.

 

39 minutes ago, Damien F said:

Those kind of stupid outrage videos are proven to get plenty of views and Disney content is often the target. It appeals to the lowest of the low.

 

If we're gonna hold the man responsible for completely misrepresenting JW, then we should also stop ourselves before we make equally inaccurate statements on others.

Schaffrillas is far from the average YT algorithm abuser, on the basis that he generally does care about the medium of film, making sure to adequately discuss every aspect in a way that the likes of MauLer and Critical Drinker would view as detrimental to maintaining their core audiences. It's certainly a pretty boilerplate sort of approach a lot of the time, but it's a pretty solid baseline for what a more casual moviegoer might think.

 

But you might notice my choice of words there, because ultimately: the casual moviegoer is incredibly clueless about film music. They legitimately do not know what they like and want, since the music is ultimately going to be on the bottom of their list of things to think about if it's non-diegetic. If they ever noticed, it's because the film was either too iconic to not praise every aspect, or too despised to feel any aspect has actual merit (or they have a special connection to the film, but then that's more rooted in the individual experience).

And something like the prior comments on the MCU is a prime example of this kind of contradictory think, because wasn't the general complaint there supposed to be that there's no real consistent personality in the sound? Well why the fuck then are they suddenly deciding it's a bad thing in the case of Indy? Aren't you glad the series managed to stick to its guns on the sound front? Especially when the actual film itself might've deviated from the formula a bit, potentially inspiring opportunities for actual deviations in the sound? Or does it not matter if the whole package made you too angry to actually pay attention? If it's the latter, then why say anything at all?

 

It is truly stark the difference between the way some guy talks about film music versus the way a proper veteran of the medium might. How someone might accuse a soundtrack of being emotionally manipulative, versus how that same piece can really speak to people. It makes it harder for me to gauge just what exactly it is they like about movies, because are they truly enjoying the craft if every single aspect are variables you could consider cynically manufactured?

 

4 hours ago, Trope said:

Also, Schaffrillas goes on to claim that there’s no way JW even wrote the Dial score because he’s “fucking 90 years old”. Once again, a relatively influential voice on the internet spreading the completely baseless lie that JW doesn’t write his own music anymore. The man has more talent and creativity than 10 other film composers put together, and for goodness’ sake, he’s in good health and touring the freaking world conducting symphony orchestras! So he’s more than capable of writing his own music, even if he uses a little additional help now and then, like he has done on several projects over the years (so it’s nothing new).

 

Like this for example. He can claim to like the man's work despite mentioning it in a negative light more often than he might care to admit (I haven't forgotten his comments on The Lost World and Amistad from his Spielberg ranking video), but this is quite direct proof that artistry can be thrown aside for the sake of intruding cynicism. DoD is a blatant cash grab through and through, so why wouldn't the music just be 2 hours of greatest hits? Why pay attention to the acting and lost potential in the story if the mouse behind it all is always there?

 

I really don't know if I have much of a point ultimately, besides the fact that people can get carried away if their biases let them affect the way they enjoy media too much. Schaff certainly has every right to be mad at Disney for their malpractices, but at the point you start sounding like the reactionaries you hate by straight up stating lies because it wouldn't be for anything major for most people is truly a careless move to be making.

[Damien F 1,742]

To be fair to Schaffrillas, I've never heard of him before this thread. But when it comes to film takes on YT, especially where Disney is concerned, there is so much garbage that I tend to start with the assumption that videos are from algorithm feeding haters until demonstrated otherwise.

[HunterTech 994]

I will admit that like YMS, he's someone I more enjoy for personality than for legitimate analysis (especially when I initially followed him for his YTP work). But unlike Adum, I think he tends to make sense more often than not, and in this particular instance, it absolutely is a response to the continual exhaustion he has towards Disney's recent output.

Compare 4 years prior, when he's fully willing to admit his lack of appreciation for TRoS's score is entirely rooted in his distaste for the film (and thus doesn't blame JW as a result), and is willing to praise aspects he enjoyed.

 

Now? Nothing about DoD could possibly be good and/or unique.

[Damien F 1,742]

I was thinking about that myself. JW's score is suffering from the lukewarm reception of its movie. JW got nominated for a score for a film that was met with a lot of derision, whereas Daniel Pemberton scored Across The Spiderverse which was a movie universally acclaimed but got no score nomination even though it probably deserved one. In this context, I can understand how JW's nomination became the punching bag for people to release their frustration that Spiderverse wasn't nominated and that DoD received some Academy recognition. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

They're composed by the same person*.

You fox!

[HunterTech 994]

28 minutes ago, Damien F said:

I was thinking about that myself. JW's score is suffering from the lukewarm reception of its movie. JW got nominated for a score for a film that was met with a lot of derision, whereas Daniel Pemberton scored Across The Spiderverse which was a movie universally acclaimed but got no score nomination even though it probably deserved one. In this context, I can understand how JW's nomination became the punching bag for people to release their frustration that Spiderverse wasn't nominated and that DoD received some Academy recognition. 

Well, isn't that just the common Oscars dilemma? :/

 

It also reminds me of a point I've seen some make about how much a movie can just be its script to some people, since any of the good work done on the production side means zilch if the writing absolutely is what's sticking out to most folks.

Perhaps it's unfair to pull that out in the case of Indy, since so many of the complaints of V are rooted in how lacking it is without Spielberg's touch. And Schaff definitely is one to be upfront when he's vibing with a film in spite of script issues, but that kind of doesn't seem to apply here if it feels like the score could've been literally anything and the response to its nomination would likely be the same.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

52 minutes ago, Damien F said:

JW got nominated for a score for a film that was met with a lot of derision, whereas Daniel Pemberton scored Across The Spiderverse which was a movie universally acclaimed but got no score nomination even though it probably deserved one.

 

Have you not just given a strong argument for Spiderverse being nominated over, or at least alongside DoD though? Had Williams done Spiderverse and Pemberton scored DoD, we'd probably be having the same discussion the other way round.

 

And central to this debate, I think is an assumption that whichever way things fall, assignment-wise, Williams will always produce the better score, or at least he should inherently be oscar nominated no matter what project he's done .... because.... ?

 

Hence I think this disparity amongst commentators and fans is disagreement on whether DoD is truly an oscar worthy score. Many here would argue that it is; I'd strongly argue that it's not. I don't think it's at all anti-Williams to suggest that of all his works, his last couple perhaps don't have that inspiration and vibe to be considered major award worthy. A handful he's done in the last 20 years definitely did.

[Damien F 1,742]

I think Spiderverse deserved a nomination but not necessarily at the expense of DoD.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Sure, doesn't have to be at its expense, but I think it's wrong for Williams to be considered a de facto auto-nomination because of who he is, particularly when it means that a popcorn movie that wouldn't stand a chance from any other composer, receives serious attention. Gia would never be nominated for a Jurassic World score, but had Williams continued for whatever reason... most definitely. It would still be a popcorn score. The only difference is the reverence of the composer and I don't think there's any accounting for differing tastes.

[Trope 527]

19 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Gia would never be nominated for a Jurassic World score, but had Williams continued for whatever reason... most definitely. It would still be a popcorn score. The only difference is the reverence of the composer and I don't think there's any accounting for differing tastes.

The primary difference would be John's score would be better written, and hence deserving of a nomination.

[crumbs 14,317]

1 minute ago, Trope said:

The primary difference would be John's score would be better written.

 

Exactly this.

 

It's like arguing Williams was only nominated for the Star Wars sequels because he's John Williams, then pointing to Rogue One not being nominated as evidence for your argument.

 

13 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I think it's wrong for Williams to be considered a de facto auto-nomination because of who he is

 

Personally I think he was nominated because the music branch considered his music for Indy 5 amongst the 5 best film scores of the year.

[Damien F 1,742]

As the music branch is obviously comprised of composers, I think it is reasonable to say that they recognised the technical complexity and musical mastery of DoD which non-musical commentators would not be aware of.

 

It reminds me of reviews I see on YT for cameras by professional photographers. I often see comments saying that iPhone cameras are much better but the professional photographer will have a whole different criteria for judging a camera compared to the general public.

[crumbs 14,317]

7 minutes ago, Damien F said:

It reminds me of reviews I see on YT for cameras by professional photographers. I often see comments saying that iPhone cameras are much better but the professional photographer will have a whole different criteria for judging a camera compared to the general public.

 

Or Bluray reviewers who bitch and moan about film restorations that retain the authentic grain structure because it looks "noisy," while lavishing praise upon DNR'd trash because it looks "cleaner."

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Absolutely, the music branch has a much more developed sense. Certainly, when they let Santaollalla through the net twice all those years ago, that was a major WTAF?

 

I always think of the Quidditch Match as an example of a cue that must be a masterclass in orchestration, while also kicking major ass as music - what an amazingly brilliant piece. I just don't think Williams replicates the translation of technical expertise into a thrilling, emotional, entertaining piece as consistently as others judge him to do, and where it doesn't quite translate emotionally, the rest of the academy (and some of us) don't react quite as enthusiastically.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

22 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Absolutely, the music branch has a much more developed sense. Certainly, when they let Santaollalla through the net twice all those years ago, that was a major WTAF?

This is disingenuous. Like every other part of the academy, the music branch is made up of a large group of voters that breaks down into smaller blocks. Clearly a large amount of voters appreciate the craftsmanship of Williams’ scores, just as a large group of voters like the shit Santaolalla spews, but that doesn’t mean that every member of the branch is responsible for every nomination. That’s like saying every Democrat is responsible when a Republican is elected and vice versa in the US. There doesn’t have to be any overlap between the two for both to score a nomination. 

[Edmilson 7,466]

8 hours ago, Trope said:

At 6:03 in this video, this imbecile says that there was not a single original composition in the entire Dial of Destiny score. What tiny amount of respect and good will I had for this guy disappeared in an instant. I usually prefer to restrain myself, but this fucking moron is so dense it’s unbelievable. I can’t even put into words how much his asinine comments rubbed me the wrong way.
 

After all the JW-hate going around due to his latest nomination, I thought to revisit the Dial score myself for the first time in a few months. Literally after the opening few minutes of the Prologue, I completely understand why this was nominated and even deserves a win. It’s incredible music, more sophisticated, evocative and thematically/orchestrally-competent than any other film score of 2023. And I personally love Ludwig’s Oppenheimer score! But to say JW doesn’t deserve a nomination for Dial on its own merits demonstrates the highest level of musical ignorance.

 

Also, Schaffrillas goes on to claim that there’s no way JW even wrote the Dial score because he’s “fucking 90 years old”. Once again, a relatively influential voice on the internet spreading the completely baseless lie that JW doesn’t write his own music anymore. The man has more talent and creativity than 10 other film composers put together, and for goodness’ sake, he’s in good health and touring the freaking world conducting symphony orchestras! So he’s more than capable of writing his own music, even if he uses a little additional help now and then, like he has done on several projects over the years (so it’s nothing new).

 

Just because he’s been nominated so frequently in the past for the incredible music he’s written does not mean he has no right to be nominated for his next masterwork. Imagine saying an incredible athlete shouldn’t be allowed to win the gold medal this year because they’ve won so many in the past and it’s time to give someone else a shot. Come on!! 

 

For all the talk of JW-bias, I sense a stronger than usual amount of anti-JW sentiment in much of the discussion I’ve seen online. And frankly, people being salty and flat out mad that a 91 year-old film composing legend is being nominated for an Oscar for an outstanding score, even if it’s for a less than stellar film, is baffling to me.

This guy is an awful YouTuber. I thankfully blocked his channel long ago. There are much better other Youtubers out there covering movies. 

[Trope 527]

1 minute ago, Richard Penna said:

I just don't think Williams replicates the translation of technical expertise into thrilling music as consistently as others judge him to do

Yes, what each of us personally finds "thrilling" is subjective, as is what each of us finds emotionally stirring. Some people might find an RCP power anthem or a pop song thrilling, and that is perfectly legitimate. Our emotional responses are all different.

 

With that in mind, listeners must also consider the objective elements of compositional craft (melodic construction, harmony, chord voicings, orchestration, thematic application, etc.) when trying to properly judge film music, and I (and many other listeners) note Williams to be miles ahead of the rest of today's composers in that regard. You might not personally find each and every score he writes to be as emotionally engaging as what you consider to be his best (i.e. The Quidditch Match), but by that same standard, you also can't say that they aren't emotionally engaging to other listeners (or even a majority of listeners, as you yourself identified in your post).

 

BTW I couldn't care less about the Oscars - I think it's mostly a lot of nonsense and is no guarantee of quality. I'm just stunned by the view that the Dial of Destiny score is less worthy than the other nominees because John Williams has been nominated in the past or because it isn't as iconic as other celebrated scores he's written. 

[crocodile 8,017]

I suppose of Williams wins you can say he did so for 5 movies. More than makes up for all the snubs. 

 

Karol

[Edmilson 7,466]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Had Williams done Spiderverse and Pemberton scored DoD, we'd probably be having the same discussion the other way round.

So what you're saying is that if Williams scored Spider-Verse, he'd have written the exact same score as Pemberton did? And if Pemberton scored DoD, it'd be exactly the same as Williams's? 

 

Look, people may disagree over what score is better, and of course they're free to disagree with the Academy (the same dudes who gave an award to All Quiet last year). IMO, Pemberton's Spider-Man music wouldn't get anywhere near any award, but I understand why "regular" people outside of the film music fandom like it: it's a pop score, clearly inspired by the pop songs they like to listen to. It works for what the movie is aiming for (no, I don't think a JW score would've fit that movie), but it's not the kind of score I usually like.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

On 24/01/2024 at 6:31 AM, JTW said:

And btw Frank Marshall's father was a film composer, so I think he is the one who understands Williams' importance better, and told her wife that she had to get John if she didn't want to fail miserably.

Ok, that's boderline bad faith.

 

8 hours ago, Trope said:

The video was posted on his second channel. His main channel has a lot more subscribers: 

He writes TPM off but praises AotC third act that's just tracked from TPM... I don't respect his opinions on scores since this video. Poor Sideways was clearly uncomfortable.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

42 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So what you're saying is that if Williams scored Spider-Verse, he'd have written the exact same score as Pemberton did? And if Pemberton scored DoD, it'd be exactly the same as Williams's? 

 

Not quite. Had Williams scored Spiderverse and Pemberton DoD, the former would proably be oscar nominated because Williams wrote it. Little catering for the actual qualities of the score or whether Pemberton in that particular case happened to write a more engaging, appropriate score.

[Damien F 1,742]

53 minutes ago, Trope said:

I'm just stunned by the view that the Dial of Destiny score is less worthy than the other nominees because John Williams has been nominated in the past or because it isn't as iconic as other celebrated scores he's written. 

 

Yes, a person could make the same flawed argument about De Niro's nomination for Killers of the Flower Moon. He's been nominated in the past for more iconic roles which arguably produced more broadly appealing performances but that doesn't detract from the quality of his work in Killers of the Flower Moon.

[JTN 2,030]

1 hour ago, Trope said:

With that in mind, listeners must also consider the objective elements of compositional craft (melodic construction, harmony, chord voicings, orchestration, thematic application, etc.) when trying to properly judge film music, and I (and many other listeners) note Williams to be miles ahead of the rest of today's composers in that regard.

Yes, but alas, people want BWAAAAAAAAAAAMMMM! for 2 hours.