Do you think Saving Private Ryan is a masterpiece?

[Bellosh 3,442]

Score:  Yes

 

Film: Yes

 

Hymn to the Fallen: Yes

[King Mark 3,631]

In the top 5 most boring Williams scores

[Bellosh 3,442]

Nah man you just don't get it yet

 

Approaching the Enemy has so much going on it.

[karelm 2,915]

The film and score are so masterful and deeply moving, this sequence always brings me to tears.  This film exemplifies two masters of their medium at the pinnacle of their craft.  Sublime, mature, rich, complex, efficient, and ultimately deeply moving.  This is from a moment in the film where so much is happening subtextually.  A masterpiece of film making, scoring, and storytelling.  

 

 

The film never scores the action, only the subtext or inner thoughts of the characters.  Something Spielberg and Williams hinted at in all their prior collaborations but here it is in full display.

 

A few reasons why this film hits me so hard - I think it was 2014, I was flying back from Baltimore, Maryland, after performing there.  That was after a wonderful experience performing with Marin Alsop and the amazing musicians and friends in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra.  Since I had to fly with my trombone in a seat without it blocking any passengers in case there was an evacuation, I was boarded first and in the front row. Next were a group of 20 senior citizens that were all part of the Honor Flight Network (a non-profit organization whose mission is to transport Veterans to Washington DC to visit memorials dedicated to their service and sacrifice). This was one of the most enjoyable flights I had ever taken making the five-hour flight feel like only 30 minutes it was over so quick.

 

The man sitting next to me was known as the “kid” because he was the youngest one at 87. He was a rear gunner on a B-17 bomber. I told him I was a pilot which excited him, and I felt helped loosen him up as we began talking about what he saw and experienced flying dozens of dangerous missions, the fright of the Luftwaffe, friends he lost, and the incredible randomness of great tragedies. Our initial discussion was about the experience he had as a vintage aviator.  Then he almost started tearing up recalling a routine mission with several of his friends where all on board died because the plane simply flew into a mountain. I could feel the cold, noise, smell, fear, cramping, claustrophobia inside the rear and belly turret of these long missions over enemy terrain. He said the introduction of the P-51 Mustang was a game changer because they would now have armed escorts on their dangerous missions who were as agile (probably more so) as the Luftwaffe. They frequently didn't even know what happened to their friends. After difficult missions, they simply returned and noticed airplanes missing or bunks unoccupied. No word of what happened to their friends...are they now POW? Did the plane ditch in the sea? Were there any survivors? They had no easy answers. How terrifying it must have been to fly these missions before the P-51 where it must have felt like they were a large sitting duck! Now at least, they had a chance.

 

Halfway through the flight, many of these men had to go the bathroom so my front row chair became a rotating door of great stories from these incredible veterans. One consistent story I heard was how much they all revered one of the passengers on the flight above all else. Finally, he made his way to the front row seat awaiting the bathroom.

 

When he sat next to me, we started talking and I saw his cap "101st Airborne Screaming Eagles" Infantry division. My jaw dropped. He was a paratrooper on D-Day who jumped from a glider behind enemy lines in the middle of the night during the Invasion of D-Day. Against incredibly bad odds, he survived the battle telling me that night, he lost half his company. Just imagine, in a 24-hour period losing one out of two people you trained and bonded with.  These guys were around 17 to 22 years old at that time and I couldn't believe I was looking them directly in their eyes hearing them recount these horrific experiences firsthand.  This scene from Saving Private Ryan, the 101st is crossing paths with Captain Miller's (Tom Hanks) character as they look through the dog tags of paratroopers killed.  I met those men.  

 

It was incredibly humbling to meet these true heroes and I was reminded of them each time I see this film. I will never forget meeting them and hearing their stories firsthand. 

 

[Holko 9,540]

Saw the film once, didn't like it. Tried the score multiple times, always barely got through it. To me it just sounds like a bunch of filler cues that go on and on and would go between the highlights which in this case don't exist.

[Schilkeman 971]

Like Schindler's list, I think the music is fantastic in support of the film, but I don't find it musically interesting enough to come back to that often. Despite the number of notes he tends to write, the fault of over composed doesn't come up too often in Williams' work, but it's the only term I can think of for Hymn to the Fallen. The film is maybe Spielberg's last from his Grand Gesture period, and I do think it's a masterpiece, bookends and all.

[Bellosh 3,442]

38 minutes ago, Holko said:

Saw the film once, didn't like it. Tried the score multiple times, always barely got through it. To me it just sounds like a bunch of filler cues that go on and on and would go between the highlights which in this case don't exist.

 

Besides your take on the film, I once had this same opinion on the score.

 

There's so much interesting stuff happening though. I promise.

[Holko 9,540]

Ok. Even then, this holy americana sound is mostly really not my thing.

[Trope 530]

I still haven't seen the film, and whilst I don't think I would call the score a "masterpiece" by JW's standards, it is extremely beautiful in parts and contains some of Williams' best melancholy/reflective Americana writing. The Last Battle (5:07-end) is absolutely gorgeous. I adore the contrapuntal trumpet writing, and those woodwind chords at 7:19 are wonderful. 

 

 

[GerateWohl 4,406]

If you accept that this is not a movie about what a bad thing war is but about that war is actually good when each of your enemies is a racist sadistic coward, like in this movie, then you have a good time watching. 

 

When I compare Saving Private Ryan with The Thin Red Line, which came out the same year, I have to say, Spielbergs movie left more of an impression to me.

And the score is better.  

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,436]

Simply the best war picture ever made. As for the score, it fits the film perfectly and Hymn to the Fallen is definitly among the top 10 best cues Williams ever wrote (if you excludes SW and Indy)

[Richard Penna 3,714]

I like the film - well directed and acted.

 

The score is a mixed bag for me; some highlights such as HTTF but overall the score has too much of a monotonous sound for me to enjoy as an album. I'm not a fan of patriotic brass and strings to start with, but an hour of it tires me. No doubt orchestration enthusiasts go nuts and it works well in the film, but I don't find it works as well for listening.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,597]

6 hours ago, Holko said:

Ok. Even then, this holy americana sound is mostly really not my thing.

 

"Holy Americana, Batman!" 

 

 

While I don't think that SAVING PRIVATE RYAN is up there with, say, PATTON, or THE GRAND ILLUSION, or ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT as a great war film, it is a great film, and it deserved to be named Best Picture at the 1999 Oscars, instead of that Shakespeare bollocks.

The score is among JW's most restrained works. It would be so easy to score the battle scenes, but SS and JW were wise to go in the opposite direction.

If I had my way, 'Hymn To The Fallen' would be played at every Remembrance Day service, the world over.

[Richard Penna 3,714]

HTTF is a nice piece slightly dethroned by the OTT ending where the orchestra and choir are absolutely belting out. I'd prefer a more straightforward orchestral approach without choir.

[geom_00 36]

I can't explain why, but JW put this little snippet in Hymn to the Fallen at measures 13 and 14? that (at least to this arrangement) is something like this:

 

 

I don't know why that little phrase works so well, but it does.  I don't think it would be as stunning without it.

 

/Link to the video I took the screen shot from:  

 

[Bellosh 3,442]

fair amount of 'Yes' for the score.  I'm surprised.  I'm wondering if it's because it's such a short, concise score, it has a better chance to have 'less errors'. It's almost a perfect score in that sense.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Hymn to the Fallen is music fit for the funeral of presidents and war heroes.

[mrbellamy 6,315]

Love "Hymn to the Fallen," always have, essential John Williams. I wouldn't hesitate at all to put it in the pantheon of his greatest concert pieces. 

 

The score is effective, "Wade's Death" for me is what I really think about as Williams's most important contribution in context. His score is expressing a lot of stomach-churning feelings in the aftermath of that situation. Especially Miller crying in secret, it's like the sound of emotional repression. 

 

But it just feels weird to single out SPR as a masterpiece of film scoring, other than just always appreciating John Williams's musical and dramatic instincts. The film is obviously the Steven Spielberg/Michael Kahn show, D-Day is probably the greatest thing they've ever put together, maybe the greatest thing Spielberg's ever directed. I acknowledge the film is sometimes confused as to what it is really trying to say about the nature of war, but it's such a moving and harrowing movie, I love the whole ensemble and all four combat sequences are just astonishing. 

[Tom 4,680]

3 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Hymn to the Fallen is music fit for the funeral of presidents and war heroes.

Good thing, then, that Williams did not call it Hymn to the Draft Dodgers and Cowards.   

[Bellosh 3,442]

49 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

The score is effective, "Wade's Death" for me is what I really think about as Williams's most important contribution in context. His score is expressing a lot of stomach-churning feelings in the aftermath of that situation. Especially Miller crying in secret, it's like the sound of emotional repression.

 

My goodness this post. So glad I made this thread if stuff like this is going to come from it.

[Thor 7,557]

The film is most certainly a masterpiece, one of the best war movies ever.

 

The score bored the hell out of me when it came out. That kind of slow, solemn Americana was not what I was looking for as a restless young man of barely 20. Of course, tastes change a bit, and now I'm far more receptive to that kind of music. I mean, not for an infinite amount of time - the OST is perfectly curated - but enough to get engrossed by. The film is also brilliantly spotted, allowing many scenes to play out more effectively without music.

[Tom 4,680]

Anyone still annoyed that this film lost out to Shakespeare In Love?  

[Naïve Old Fart 9,597]

Hell, yeah!

[filmmusic 1,846]

No, to all three questions.

If I admitted that SPR is a masterpiece of a score, then it wouldn't be fair for true masterpieces in my book like E.T., Hook or Schinldler's List.

As for the film, I vastly prefer The Thin Red line, which was released the same year.

[Jurassic Shark 12,116]

Anybody else thinks Shakespeare in Love is a masterpiece?

[filmmusic 1,846]

4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Anybody else thinks Shakespeare in Love is a masterpiece?

Do you mean the score? Do you think it's a masterpiece?

[Jay 37,420]

11 hours ago, Thor said:

the OST is perfectly curated

 

Actually, you're completely wrong about that.  The OST is not curated, it's expanded.  It's LONGER than the amount of music that got recorded, because there are two 6+ minute stretches of music that he put on the score album twice (in identical performance and mix each time).

[Jurassic Shark 12,116]

26 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Do you mean the score? Do you think it's a masterpiece?

 

Both film and score. 

[Richard Penna 3,714]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

The score bored the hell out of me when it came out.

 

Opposite for me actually - I really liked Omaha Beach and most of the rest other than the standard patriotic stuff (proud brass and strings aren't my thing). I've found it drifted more from my tastes in more recent years. I still think Omaha is a superbly crafted piece but it does drag on a bit. The whole album is an example for me of fine craftsmanship but not having enough variety in its sound to hold interest. In the listenability and variety respect, The Thin Red Line is a vast improvement in Zimmer's near-perfectly curated album.

[mstrox 6,654]

Yes yes and yes.  One of my favorite Williams scores and probably my favorite war movie.

[filmmusic 1,846]

49 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Actually, you're completely wrong about that.  The OST is not curated, it's the opposite.  It's LONGER than the amount of music that got recorded, because there are two 6+ minute stretches of music that he put on the score album twice (in identical performance and mix each time).

Not to mention also the 2 tracks of the Hymn to Fallen.

[Jay 37,420]

That's one of the two 6+ minutes stretches I mentioned.

[filmmusic 1,846]

Ah. Got you. I didn't get it the first time.

[Jay 37,420]

To provide the information for anybody who doesn't know,

 

-The track "Hymm To The Fallen (Reprise)" is 100% identical to the track "Hymm To The Fallen"

 

-The track "High School Teacher" only contains the "High School Teacher" cue from 0:00-2:39 and 9:30-end.  The 2:39-9:30 section of the track contains an identical repeat of music already heard in the track "Omaha Beach" from 0:22-7:41 there.

[Yavar Moradi 2,613]

On 21/04/2024 at 10:06 PM, Holko said:

Saw the film once, didn't like it. Tried the score multiple times, always barely got through it. To me it just sounds like a bunch of filler cues that go on and on and would go between the highlights which in this case don't exist.

 

I agree with all of this (the film really rubbed me the wrong way; easily my least favorite Spielberg film), with the exception of Hymn to the Fallen...

 

On 21/04/2024 at 10:17 PM, Schilkeman said:

Despite the number of notes he tends to write, the fault of over composed doesn't come up too often in Williams' work, but it's the only term I can think of for Hymn to the Fallen.

 

And while I disagree with other comments made in this same post (the bookends are the worst part by far, of that horribly overrated film... "Tell me... I've been a good man." UGH.), this part about Hymn to the Fallen I agree with. It is SO overdone it makes me roll my eyes. I cannot stand it. I prefer the endless boring parts of the score (maybe my least favorite Williams score, ever?) to the overblown Hymn to the Fallen. 

 

Good for you, if you like it! But I'll stick with Giacchino Medal of Honor scores, or literally any other patriotic Americana Williams score besides this one. I like Lincoln, JFK, The Patriot, etc. just fine...

 

And the best war film ever made is the original All Quiet on the Western Front.

 

Yavar

[crocodile 8,027]

No, on all three accounts. But I really like all three. 

 

Karol

[Edmilson 7,505]

35 minutes ago, Jay said:

To provide the information for anybody who doesn't know,

 

-The track "Hymm To The Fallen (Reprise)" is 100% identical to the track "Hymm To The Fallen"

 

-The track "High School Teacher" only contains the "High School Teacher" cue from 0:00-2:39 and 9:30-end.  The 2:39-9:30 section of the track contains an indentical repeat of music already heard in the track "Omaha Beach" from 0:22-7:41 there.

This is a Williams trend (that was more present in the late 90s/early 2000s, I think) for his OST albums that I really don't care about. Why literally repeat the same track all over again? Maybe he couldn't decide if HTTF would go in the beginning or the end of the OST album, so he just did both?

 

A similar thing happened in The Patriot, which reprises the main theme (even though the second time it appears it has a coda not present in the first time). I think Williams should've started the OST with The Family Farm and ended with The Patriot theme.

[Jay 37,420]

Star Wars has the entire End Credits cue in the first and last track of the original album.

 

So does Superman.

 

Raiders of the Lost Ark has the full end credits as the first track and and edited version as the last track

 

Witches of Eastwick mixes things up by having the end credits appear in track 2 and then repeated identically in the final track

[mrbellamy 6,315]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Anybody else thinks Shakespeare in Love is a masterpiece?

 

No but it gets a bad rap, it's really entertaining

[GerateWohl 4,406]

I use the opportunity again, that I believe still, that somehow Patrick Doyle's Non Nobis Domine might have been some kind of template or at least Inspiration for Hymn To The Fallen. And don't come again with the one is British and the other one is americana. The similarity in melody, tone, the repetetive construction and the context of the pieces are there. And I found Hymn to the Fallen rather atypical for Williams at that time.

Not the rest of the score, just HTTF.

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,116]

12 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

HTTF

 

Dude, no need to be rude.

[GerateWohl 4,406]

Listening to it right now and enjoying how well balanced the music is. As always with later Williams. 

If you want to hear a score where you get tired and bored of the horn solos latest after 20 minutes just listen to Howard Shore's eXistenZ.

Then listen again to Williams' Saving Private Rian. What a bliss!

[Thor 7,557]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Actually, you're completely wrong about that.  The OST is not curated, it's the opposite.  It's LONGER than the amount of music that got recorded, because there are two 6+ minute stretches of music that he put on the score album twice (in identical performance and mix each time).

 

How does that negate the fact that it's curated? As far as I know, a selection and order of music have been made? It's not the entire score in film order? Just because it plays the same theme twice, doesn't mean it's not curated. In fact, that's another part of a curated presentation. Personally, I like the two iterations of the theme -- makes for perfect album bookends.

[Jay 37,420]

You don't seem to understand.  Curated means taking a long thing and presenting a shorter version of it.  That's now what this is.

This is taking a complete score and repeating two different parts of it to make a longer album.

 

There is no cue recorded for the picture that isn't here; Every single cue recorded for the picture, is on the OST album.

 

In fact, there's only 50 seconds of music recorded that isn't on the OST album.  Instead of those 50 seconds, he repeated about 13 minutes worth of music.

 

Do you understand now?

[Thor 7,557]

No, I think we interpret the word 'curate' differently. I've always taken it to mean both a selection of material, as well as manners in which said material is presented. Like curators at an art exhibition. So sequencing plays a role too.

[Bellosh 3,442]

FUBAR

[Richard Penna 3,714]

I might be misremembering but isn't the original album fairly close to the entire score in film order?

  

7 minutes ago, Thor said:

No, I think we interpret the word 'curate' differently. I've always taken it to mean both a selection of material, as well as manners in which said material is presented. Like curators at an art exhibition. So sequencing plays a role too.

 

See above comments - it may (and does indeed) feel curated but almost nothing's missing nor subject to Williams' usual meddlings. In that sense there's very little curation at all.

[Jay 37,420]

8 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I might be misremembering but isn't the original album fairly close to the entire score in film order?

 

The original soundtrack albums contains the entire score, except for 10 seconds that were snipped out of one cue, and another cue is presented in its originally-recorded form without a 40 second insert that replaced a portion of the original cue in the final film.  But then its extended to 13+ minutes longer than its recorded length by repeating music.

 

It's not in chronological order at all, no, not even close.

[Richard Penna 3,714]

Oh I knew about all the inserted bits yep. I just couldn't remember whether Williams had done one of his needless track shufflings.

 

Ahhh... order restored and Thor is a happy bunny. It's not in film order  

[Jay 37,420]

This is the chronological order for anyone interested

 

If you have the LLL:

1. 02 Revisiting Normandy (4:06)
2. 03 Omaha Beach (9:15)
3. 05 Approaching the Enemy (4:31)
4. 04 Finding Private Ryan (4:37)
5. 07 Wade's Death (4:30)
6. 11 High School Teacher (Film Version) (4:31)
7. 06 Defense Preparations (5:54)
8. 12 The Last Battle (Film Version) (8:02)
9. 01 Hymn To The Fallen (6:10)

 

If you only have the OST:

1. 02 Revisiting Normandy (4:06)
2. 03 Omaha Beach (9:15)
3. 05 Approaching the Enemy (4:31)
4. 04 Finding Private Ryan (4:37)
5. 07 Wade's Death (4:30)
6. 08 High School Teacher [0:00-2:39] / [9:30-end] (4:12)
7. 06 Defense Preparations (5:54)
8. 09 The Last Battle (7:57)
9. 01 Hymn To The Fallen (6:10)