Bespin 8,499 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Thor said: Don't say it loudly! I got a mouthful from Mike M. over on FSM for mentioning this fact. He simply tried to explain you're a jerk, often if not always, focusing on the wrong aspects of reissues. I learned from that discussion with MM, that JW hated the way the 30th Anniversary Edition sounded, and wanted it be redone since that time. Then @Thor, equal to himself, said that anyway, he just cared about the first CD of this new set (the original album)... which was always sounded perfect according to JW. A jerk, but here we know him! Holko and Bilbo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Link, please. https://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=145929&forumID=1&archive=0 5 minutes ago, Bespin said: He simply tried to explain you're a jerk, often if not always focusing on the wrong aspects of reissues. Classy as always, that Bespin fella. What are the "right" aspects of reissues? Is it wrong to wonder about the lack of composer credits on the cover (on the old issues as well as this)? Is Geratewohl a "jerk" too for broaching the subject a few posts up? GerateWohl and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,499 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 You obviously didn't understand MM's explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 What explanation? His explanation of why Bock isn't credited on the cover was fine. But the totally unmotivated personal insult at the end was bizarre. Much like yours a couple of posts up (and in violation of board rules, I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,364 Posted November 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Thor said: What explanation? His explanation of why Bock isn't credited on the cover was fine. But the totally unmotivated personal insult at the end was bizarre. Much like yours a couple of posts up (and in violation of board rules, I think). With all due respect, you're a broken record. You don't need to come into every expansion announcement and declare the release doesn't interest you. We get it. Move on and post in threads that do interest you. Can you seriously not understand how your perpetually negative sentiment around remasters/expansions would be deflating to Mike and the various people working their asses off to produce these releases? Not to mention Williams himself, who seems to be rapt with these updated presentations of his scores. Richard Penna, Andy, Jay and 9 others 5 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 Perhaps take a deep breath and read the thread first, Mr. Crumbs? The issue in question really didn't have anything to do with that, but rather a query about Bock's credit (or lack thereof) on the front cover, and Matessino's over-reaction to that query. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,749 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 I somewhat roll my eyes every time I read a complaint which boils down to absolute-accurate credits on the cover. Aside from the obvious legalities and contractual arrangements (i.e. making the product legal to sell), I honestly don't understand why people care about it so much. In this case, the enquiry itself is a legitimate case-by-case question, but I agree with MM that most of us by now know that most elements of these releases are contractually restricted, and so if something's been done a certain way, there's a reason for it. But I think starting from a base of 'you know I'm not interested in this set, but....' didn't help matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 It wasn't really a complaint. It was a curiousity; a question. Nicolai had the same over on FSM. Geratewohl had the same here. I've had it ever since I got the soundtrack in 2001 (no credit there either). It's a normal thing to be curious about, for those of us who don't have inside knowledge about the legalese and contractual aspects of things. Mike explained why Bock wasn't credited, and that's fine. But then -- for some reason, and totally unmotivated -- tagged on an insult at the end, which was unnecessary in a professional response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,749 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 Honestly, I think it's just your opening standpoint of stating that you're not interested in the release. I'd respectfully suggest that instead of reminding us that you're not interested, start on a positive, then put forth your question. Footnote: how exactly were you planning to 'sample' the first disc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,364 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 11 minutes ago, Thor said: Mike explained why Bock wasn't credited, and that's fine. But then -- for some reason, and totally unmotivated -- tagged on an insult at the end, which was unnecessary. Bloody rich, considering the way you've belittled and disregarded his efforts over the years. How did you describe his work the other day? "An ocean of C&C sickness." Seems you're happy to dish out the insults but cry foul when the serve is returned. Holko and Bilbo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 19 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Honestly, I think it's just your opening standpoint of stating that you're not interested in the release. That's fairly obvious. I even prefaced it with my awareness that it was a predictable response. But more important was my positive comment about Jim's excellent artwork in that first post. 19 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Footnote: how exactly were you planning to 'sample' the first disc? We tend to get LLL promos for the IFMCA, and hope to sample it that way. 17 minutes ago, crumbs said: How did you describe his work the other day, again? "An ocean of C&C sickness." Nice try at deflection. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue in question, which was only about an innocent curiousity surrounding Bock's credit on the cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Luke Skywalker 1,805 Posted November 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 27, 2021 On the other hand i find this “you are not entitled to complain” movement from both Professionals and customers a little tirannical in they views, we are all entitled to our opinions as long as no personal attacks are thrown or said with respect, which unfortunately both sides seem to forget lately. we are to the point where an informative question is being taken as critizism, or a different mix than expected always taken as sloppiness… its not really healthy. i dont care if anyone says ‘not interested’ or ‘pass’ but i dont mind them saying it. I thank people pointing errors and fixes so i have a better listening experience though. Thor, A. A. Ron, Jurassic Shark and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 That's an excellent and levelheaded point, Luke. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,991 Posted November 27, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 27, 2021 Come on, guys, you know very well that what people in soundtrack forums do 90% of the time is indeed complaining about something. ragoz350, Yavar Moradi, Jurassic Shark and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,402 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 Sometimes its about complaining on Soundtrack forums Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,805 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 15 minutes ago, TownerFan said: Come on, guys, you know very well that what people in soundtrack forums do 90% of the time is indeed complaining about something. That should be something for the labels to acknowlegde then as we are supposedly their target audience. i just feel a little sad when badly mannered arguments arise, seeing friends here fighting or professionals that for me are always on a pedestal lowering themselves to personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,180 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Richard Penna said: Footnote: how exactly were you planning to 'sample' the first disc? LLLR's website has samples, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 After I've sampled the first disc, I might even be open to substitute my existing digital version of FIDDLER (the 30th disc) with this new version, since it seems to be Williams-condoned. We'll see. But the CD, I'll keep as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,180 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 What's your thoughts on the sound quality? Is it a great improvement? bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 Haven't heard it yet. I hope we get some digital promos shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlastoEls 563 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 I can't wait to gleefully type an effusive 'Ordered!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,594 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 Mike and I have come to an understanding now, at FSM. You can ease up on the vitriol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce marshall 1,319 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 On 26/11/2021 at 10:34 AM, Disco Stu said: It's nuts how big of a hit Fiddler was. I feel like it was pretty much the very last mega-blockbuster grand Hollywood musical (and yes, I realize it wasn't made in Hollywood). In today's dollars it earned something like $600 million, a Marvel level hit Needless to say, the success of the movie raised Williams' profile a lot. Well, it was a long running Broadway hit first. So, don't know how much it did for JW. 10 hours ago, crumbs said: How did you describe his work the other day? "An ocean of C&C sickness." Brilliant description by Thor! Not of MM specifically, but the whole industry. It's even alliterative; pronounced " Sea of See and see sickness"! ' Thor Byron'😉 10 hours ago, crumbs said: With all due respect, you're a broken record. You don't need to come into every expansion announcement and declare the release doesn't interest you. We get it. Move on and post in threads that do interest you. Can you seriously not understand how your perpetually negative sentiment around remasters/expansions would be deflating to Mike and the various people working their asses off to produce these releases? Not to mention Williams himself, who seems to be rapt with these updated presentations of his scores. You really think MM or JW care what Thor thinks? ( nothing personal, Thor). Now my opinion , on the other , hand carries weight😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 28 minutes ago, bruce marshall said: Well, it was a long running Broadway hit first. So, don't know how much it did for JW. I meant in the industry, not among the general audience. bruce marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igger6 894 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 I think we can all agree it's great to have another Williams cue called "The _______ Scene" in the canon. Edmilson and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 3 hours ago, igger6 said: I think we can all agree it's great to have another Williams cue called "The _______ Scene" in the canon. Look, titles are hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattris 416 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 On 27/11/2021 at 9:54 AM, Luke Skywalker said: On the other hand... "There is no other hand!" - Tevye Jay and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,591 Posted November 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 28, 2021 Mike on FSM: Quote Quote I am very curious about those sxf cues! They are really minimal thanks to digital technology, but obviously the disclaimer needed to be there so that no one would assume we found complete scoring masters, which we did search for extensively worldwide. The playback tapes were a very nice find and provided a foundation on which a program of material taken from the MGM 6-track & M&E stems could be integrated into an alternative program. This is truly an interactive release, like getting three different albums, and a lot of opportunity to explore the variations and create different playlists. It seemed important to use this opportunity of doing everything possible to present JW's first Oscar winning work. C&C would not have worked due to variances in sound quality that would have resulted, but also to keep the album experience that Williams and Jewison wanted. For those who are interested in C&C, I'll try to get around to providing the numbers. Loert, Yavar Moradi, Andy and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,041 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I love the stage show and the movie. It has one of the better stories in the history of musical. Kind of hoped for a 4K Blu-ray of the latter to come out this year. Really excited about this release. Really curious what the chronological presentation would be. I will most definitely be creating one such playlist. Karol Once and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,591 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, crocodile said: Kind of hoped for a 4K Blu-ray of the latter to come out this year. Yes, the previous blu really needs a modern update, strange that they're doing nothing. 13 minutes ago, crocodile said: This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Really curious what the chronological presentation would be. I will most definitely be creating one such playlist. Yeah, I'll definitely craft some big main program from it, but I also like their approach, 3 programs: album, film versions of album, prerecordings and everything else, that you can also combine however you like. It's a bit like the LLL CE3K. Can't wait to get it but even more anxious to hear the samples to see just how good or great or OK or eh the various sources sound! Once and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 22 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: What's your thoughts on the sound quality? Is it a great improvement? The new edition is a noticeable improvement over either earlier CD edition, for certain. The samples available on LLL's site on Tuesday, or in Maurizio's podcast, whichever drops first, will certainly reveal this to anyone with a discerning ear. But it is still a score recorded in 1970 and 1971 that United Artists / MGM did not retain the original first gen scoring masters for, so don't expect a "miracle of miracles" on the level of other reissues where 1st gen masters were located. Mike Matessino actually just posted on FSM what sources were used: "Everything prepared for the original album, including the extra tracks not on the LP, are at MGM. Studio also provided 6-track comp and M&E from which I worked to extract and create segments that did not exist in any other way. Song playbacks were in the Mirisch archive. Demo of "Any Day Now" that was first heard on previous release was from Jerry Bock's cassette." https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=145929&forumID=1&archive=0 Jurassic Shark and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,180 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Mike mentioned on FSM that the producers got everything wrong on the 30th anniversary release, and that JW was unhappy with it. But was he happy with the CD release of the OST? If my memory serves, the OST and the 30th don't sound very dissimilar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,447 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 So, every academy award winning score of John Williams has kind of an ultimate release now, except Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,180 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 You're forgetting the Special Edition. ciarlese 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,239 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Mike mentioned on FSM that the producers got everything wrong on the 30th anniversary release, and that JW was unhappy with it. But was he happy with the CD release of the OST? If my memory serves, the OST and the 30th don't sound very dissimilar. Perhaps he was reasonably happy with it at the time, because he didn't spend too much thought on it, back when OST albums were not that much of a concern in the first place, and before his own scores became "big" enough (in whatever way) to warrant him considering the album assembly more closely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 47 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Mike mentioned on FSM that the producers got everything wrong on the 30th anniversary release, and that JW was unhappy with it. But was he happy with the CD release of the OST? If my memory serves, the OST and the 30th don't sound very dissimilar. I doubt JW has ever heard the initial CD release of the OST album 45 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: So, every academy award winning score of John Williams has kind of an ultimate release now, except Star Wars. I don't understand what you mean. The 1997 2CD set of Star Wars is complete* and chronological and sounds fine. What do you think can be improved there? Empire and Jedi need way, way better versions available than what we got in 1997, but a newer SW set won't be very different from the 1997 set, I don't think. Also, I'd hardly call Schindler's List "ultimate"; It's the 1993 album master repackaged with 6 bonus tracks. A 2CD set containing a complete and chronological film version score program on disc 1, and source music and alternates on disc 2, would be an ultimate release in my book. Fiddler, Jaws, and ET are certainly all ultimate, in the sense that they present everything the studio kept a hold of. For Fiddler as mentioned the original scoring elements are long gone so the film's music&effects stem was used. For Jaws and ET their main programs are optimal and from first gen masters and sound as best as they possible can, but their album recordings had their 1st gen masters burn up in the UMG fire, so couldn't be rebuilt/remixed/ground-up-remastered, not to mention any additional music or interesting alternate performances recorded on those album recording sessions but not put on the OST album (like, IE, what we just got for Eiger Sanction) is gone too. *yes, the original 10-20 seconds of the end credits opening that was replaced by the rewrite remains unreleased, but it's not exactly very different or essential Edmilson and ciarlese 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,180 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jay said: don't understand what you mean. The 1997 2CD set of Star Wars is complete* and chronological and sounds fine. What do you think can be improved there? Sony's remastered OST (which wasn't released on CD) sounds better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,447 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, Jay said: on't understand what you mean. The 1997 2CD set of Star Wars is complete* and chronological and sounds fine. What do you think can be improved there? Empire and Jedi need way, way better versions available than what we got in 1997, but a newer SW set won't be very different from the 1997 set, I don't think. *yes, the original 10-20 seconds of the end credits opening that was replaced by the rewrite remains unreleased, but it's not exactly very different or essential I don't talk necessarily about the completeness but also the sound quality. A definitive release would contain all the concert arrangements plus the original score and the additional edits for the special edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,591 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, Jay said: and sounds fine. It could sound great instead of fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 OK, I understand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,805 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 So fiddler will never sound any better than this release, right? This is the definitive edition, no better sources could ever surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Right. More info from Mike Quote Quote I take it this is a "ground-up" remix of the original multi-tracks? I always thought all previous versions of this release sounded oddly compressed, with strange stereo sound-staging choices. Looking forward to hearing your work, Mike! No, if there was multi-track I'd be in heaven. The orchestra was basically a 3-channel mix done for the album, but more could be done with it now. Plus having all the vocals and chorus separate, plus other components made it possible to really clean everything up & give it clarity and careful balance. blondheim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,239 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 2 hours ago, GerateWohl said: I don't talk necessarily about the completeness but also the sound quality. A definitive release would contain all the concert arrangements plus the original score and the additional edits for the special edition. Are there any concert arrangements missing? That were actually recorded during the original sessions I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Nope. The 1997 2CD set is complete - it contains all the same takes of everything heard on the original OST album, and all the same takes as everything heard in the film (because the OST album was already the same performance edits as the film), plus extra music that didn't appear on either. As I mentioned, the only thing recorded for SW that hasn't been released (or even ever re-recorded by anyone, that I've seen) is the original first 8 bars* of the end credits, that got replaced in the film / OST LP / 1993 Anthology / and 1997 2CD set by an Insert. If you listen carefully to the original OST album (via it's original CD release or the Sony remaster, for example), you can CLEARLY hear the rough analog edit that patched in the new end credits opening over the original performance "Princess Leia's Theme" is the only concert arrangement recorded at the film's scoring sessions. The concert arrangements "Here They Come" and "The Last Battle" were published on paper for concert performance, but JW did not record those arrangements at the film's recording session. *I say 8 bars because that's the only part that was different, but the Insert is actually 8 new bars plus 12 of the same original bars, for a 20-bar long insert. Marian Schedenig and Edmilson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,499 Posted November 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 28, 2021 7:01 AM - A new JW Expanded Set is announced. 7:02 AM, Thor on FSM: All I need is the OST (which I already own on a CD-R) 7:03 AM on JWfan - BUT IS IT COMPLETE? Once, Smeltington, bruce marshall and 5 others 1 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,364 Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 The most exciting aspect of this release is that it's clearly a labor of love from everyone involved, from producer to composer (and the artist was clearly inspired too, based on the packaging!) Not overly familiar with either musical or film, so this will join releases like The River and Images where I get to discover and fall in love with a score thanks entirely to an expansion. What a joyous time to be a John Williams fan. Congratulations to all involved! Mattris, Holko, Raiders of the SoundtrArk and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,991 Posted November 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2021 To anyone not much familiar with the music itself, I heartily suggest to watch (or rewatch) the film first. While for regular movies it's possible to appreciate the score as a stand-alone listening experience even without seeing the film first, musicals are totally different beasts and you really need to experience Fiddler on The Roof as a piece of musical filmmaking first and foremost. That will give you the absolutely essential context in which appreciate the music itself and Williams' stellar adaptation. I know many here don't like musicals per se as a genre, but anyone with good taste should appreciate Fiddler for the great film it is, so when yo will go through this new edition it will be a true feast for your ears. Andy, Amer, crocodile and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,591 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Rewatched it last night and I still love it. A bit too theatrical early on but you get into it, shed a few tears by the end. I especially paid attention to the music of course and can't wait to hear it all in hopefully better sound, the main title, the bottle dance and all that. I think Wedding Preparations is the track, it's such a classic dramatic JW cue playing with motifs, reminded me of Raiders in a way! I know some are disappointed by the lack of full instrumental tracks for all songs but these are musical songs and tracks, the leading forefront vocal lines are just as much, if not even more, a part of the composition as the orchestra, you wouldn't get the SW main title without the brass section, why would you expect to get Tradition or If I Were A Rich Man without the vocals? However, I can't find the short but big action cue and the wedding source music - were they buried under too many sound effects and deemed unreleasable? crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,591 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Just a few hours until the samples arrive and answer my one remaining holdup - just how good will the sound quality be, and how consistent? Once and blondheim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 On 29/11/2021 at 4:56 AM, TownerFan said: To anyone not much familiar with the music itself, I heartily suggest to watch (or rewatch) the film first. While for regular movies it's possible to appreciate the score as a stand-alone listening experience even without seeing the film first, musicals are totally different beasts and you really need to experience Fiddler on The Roof as a piece of musical filmmaking first and foremost. That will give you the absolutely essential context in which appreciate the music itself and Williams' stellar adaptation. I agree with Maurizio. Also, the film is currently free on youtube: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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