SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

7 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I personally remain perplexed on the film. It's so hard to judge something that throws in so many compelling ideas that really didn't get much follow up on. I sure as hell don't know how to compare it with KotCS.

 

KOTCS starts with a lot of promise but loses steam as it progresses. DOD takes a while to get going but its last 30 minutes are so bonkers that it becomes quite memorable.

[1977 1,743]

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the film may have tanked so badly? I haven't seen it so can't comment myself. KOTCS was roundly disliked yet still made a ton of dosh.

[Brónach 1,302]

Indy's very old, old franchise, overinflated budget, overly expensive cinema trips, very long which means less showings, less goodwill after KOTCS and other failed projects by Disney and Lucasfilm, people generally turning on franchises/sequels/reboots/etc

 

HOWEVER there's something strange. Indy (I think) has perfectly fine crossover capability with the 40+ audiences who used to watch middle budget dramas/comedies that now they don't really want to make, even back when it tried to appeal to the b-movie aesthetic. But perhaps instead it's just being read as modern franchise schlock, straight up pirating or streaming material... because now it's also that.

 

but really the budget is a problem. the others may be more industry wide issues.

[Laserschwert 475]

I gave KOTCS another view after watching DOD, and I must say with a few years passed after my last viewing of it, it doesn't feel as bad anymore. The new color grading does wonders, making it look more like Raiders, and even with the weak second half, it's still a much more carefree and light-hearted adventure flick than DOD. While I liked DOD, it's just so damn depressing all the time.

[rough cut 1,714]

This is what I think.
 

Crystal Skull >The Flash > Dial Of Destiny

[1977 1,743]

15 minutes ago, Laserschwert said:

The new color grading does wonders, making it look more like Raiders

 

New colour grading? On the UHD disc release?

[rough cut 1,714]

Yeah, these are the images readily available for comparison. I’m sure you can find more if you dig a little.

 

Spoiler

2008:

 

2021:

 

2008:

 

2021:

 

2008:

 

2021:

Edit: My Moonization alway does nice comparison videos. 

[Brónach 1,302]

i actually liked what that movie looked like sometimes with the real elements

[Laserschwert 475]

18 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

 

New colour grading? On the UHD disc release?

I think the version on Disney+ is also the new grading, but yeah, we've watched the UHD disc.

 

By the way, the other 3 films look spectacular on the UHD releases as well. Not only Raiders, which got fixed from the yellowish and brightened up Blu-ray, but Temple and Crusade got brand new masters as well, plus all visual effects shots appear to be re-composed from the original elements. So no more matte lines, jittery backdrops (in the biplane sequence from LC) or color mismatches. This is a "Special Edition"-like treatment I can get onboard with.

[1977 1,743]

14 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Yeah, these are the images readily available for comparison. I’m sure you can find more if you dig a little.

 

  Hide contents

2008:

 

2021:

 

2008:

 

2021:

 

2008:

 

2021:

Edit: My Moonization alway does nice comparison videos. 

 

Yikes! That's quite dramatic. I always felt the film seemed very...orange.

 

I have no recollection of a nun in this, guess a rewatch is in order.

 

3 minutes ago, Laserschwert said:

I think the version on Disney+ is also the new grading, but yeah, we've watched the UHD disc.

 

By the way, the other 3 films look spectacular on the UHD releases as well. Not only Raiders, which got fixed from the yellowish and brightened up Blu-ray, but Temple and Crusade got brand new masters as well, plus all visual effects shots appear to be re-composed from the original elements. So no more matte lines, jittery backdrops (in the biplane sequence from LC) or color mismatches. This is a "Special Edition"-like treatment I can get onboard with.

 

Guess I'll need to check out the D+ versions before I cancel my sub.

[rough cut 1,714]

I have the BD, box set of the first four movies and I think I’ve watched KotC all but once since I purchased it in 2012. But at least, that one time, the colors never bothered me.

 

But sure, the 4K color grading is more natural, and superior, I guess.

 

I didn’t buy the 4K box yet as Dial Of Destiny was forthcoming and I didn’t want to double dip more than necessary. I was hoping DoD would be great, to add a reason to double dip on the other movies besides “just” upgrade picture quality. Oh well. *shrug*

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Just rewatched kotcs today and man, i couldnt believe how young(er) did harrison and Karen look. I wished they had made a trilogy in the 2000-2010s

[TolkienSS 407]

10 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the film may have tanked so badly? I haven't seen it so can't comment myself. KOTCS was roundly disliked yet still made a ton of dosh.

 

Well, first of all, the film doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a long row of Lucasfilm bombs. Naturally, people have learned what they can expect from Lucasfilm.

Secondly, the reviews after Cannes confirmed just about every bad feeling people had about the film, from Helena's character to Indy being a sad depressed sod. 

It's the literal antithesis of what people want in Indiana Jones.

Thirdly, the movie wasn't delayed because they decided the movie was awesome and should have even more awesome. It was delayed because the version of the film that was rumored was godawful.

Fourthly, they knew the movie stinks, so the marketing budget was lowered significantly.

And finally, in a production so messy, it only takes the first weekend's audience reaction to make everyone else stay away from it.

[HunterTech 994]

The Little Mermaid remake has made $555.5 million, despite the fact that I literally have heard no one that I know that has mentioned even looking at anything related to it. For someone who seems so desperate to believe that Disney is pandering to some near extinct species in the population, that still is profit made for something that is very much designed to appeal to modern sensibilities. The casual market is a completely different beast than whichever fucking reactionary YouTuber you shill for keeps targeting.

 

So given that, the easy cynical answer is that someone like Indiana Jones doesn't quite appeal to current movie going audience like he might've in the past. The fact you completely fail to mention KotCS leaving people cold is evident of just how insanely biased you are, since chances are people are generally going to think in terms of what they remember from each individual franchise, and not what the current head honchos at Disney/LFL have done to them.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, at this point, there'd been one Indiana Jones film in the last 34 years, and it had been the target of a lot of derision. Beyond that, DoD had other factors stacked against it:

 

• No Spielberg/Lucas involvement
• People who took issue with Harrison's age in KOTCS had 15 years' more fuel
• The 8-year lag after the film's development was made publicly official
• The baggage of the SW ST's decidedly mixed reception
• Movie theaters aren't exactly bustling post-covid
• Marketing was so-so

And of course, ultimately, the film just never really justifies its own existence. KOTCS, for all its flaws, gave us a relatively lighthearted glimpse at Indy's life as an older man and closed out with a happy ending. DoD plays like a weirdly sad epilogue that wipes out that happy ending, only giving back a bit of it in the last few minutes.

[Bellosh 3,419]

48 minutes ago, Datameister said:

And of course, ultimately, the film just never really justifies its own existence. KOTCS, for all its flaws, gave us a relatively lighthearted glimpse at Indy's life as an older man and closed out with a happy ending.

 

yeah it was such a shame that happy ending was all for nothing.

 

it'd honestly be very interesting to see someone completely new to Indiana Jones watch all 5 of these movies in a day.

 

Raiders is 'critically acclaimed' (almost won best picture)....but would that be well known to a new viewer?  Basically once they get to KOTCS would they be like "whoa so that girl from Raiders was really important?"

 

I know TLC brought in his family side and at the same time more character to Indy, but it's funny how quickly these last 2 movies made his family so crucial to the plot.

 

Does TLC (to a new viewer) really make it seem like the next films would be family focused??? no idea.

[Not Mr. Big 4,640]

The Dial of Destiny is a boring Macguffin that doesn't make anyone want to see the movie.  It's just like a National Treasure contraption 

[Datameister 2,044]

1 hour ago, Not Mr. Big said:

The Dial of Destiny is a boring Macguffin that doesn't make anyone want to see the movie.  It's just like a National Treasure contraption 

Disagree. I was shocked to realize they'd come up with a cool MacGuffin that even could have supported some really interesting themes about the passage of time.

[Not Mr. Big 4,640]

1 minute ago, Datameister said:

Disagree. I was shocked to realize they'd come up with a cool MacGuffin that even could have supported some really interesting themes about the passage of time.

But the name sucks.  Dials aren't exciting 

[mrbellamy 6,293]

15 hours ago, Datameister said:

Yeah, at this point, there'd been one Indiana Jones film in the last 34 years, and it had been the target of a lot of derision. Beyond that, DoD had other factors stacked against it:

 

• No Spielberg/Lucas involvement
• People who took issue with Harrison's age in KOTCS had 15 years' more fuel
• The 8-year lag after the film's development was made publicly official
• The baggage of the SW ST's decidedly mixed reception
• Movie theaters aren't exactly bustling post-covid
• Marketing was so-so

And of course, ultimately, the film just never really justifies its own existence. KOTCS, for all its flaws, gave us a relatively lighthearted glimpse at Indy's life as an older man and closed out with a happy ending. DoD plays like a weirdly sad epilogue that wipes out that happy ending, only giving back a bit of it in the last few minutes.

 

I also think that yet another factor is that since Crystal Skull, he's returned as Han Solo (twice!) plus made a Blade Runner sequel. So this is not just the second old Indy movie but the third big "Harrison Ford is BACK as _______" movie in ten years, and surprise surprise, it's an "Indy is at a low point" movie after the "Han Solo is at a low point" movie and the "Rick Deckard is at a low point" movie. 

 

So I think this kinda had to be considered the best of those to really come out swinging, but general consensus seemed to land pretty distantly behind Force Awakens and Blade Runner 2049, never mind the original Indy trilogy. It's not as crowdpleasing as TFA, nor as technically astonishing as BR2049. (Of course Blade Runner 2049 actually made less at the box office than DoD, but it was immediately acclaimed and its rep has only grown, and still my point stands that I think it's part of the fatigue...you'd expect Indy to be running laps around Blade Runner, not marginally more successful at double the budget.) 

 

Throw in all the other legacy sequels and reboots since Crystal Skull and I think that adds to the wave of "been there, done that" from audiences. 

[Datameister 2,044]

30 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

But the name sucks.  Dials aren't exciting 

 

Ah, I see what you're saying. Regardless of whether it's cool in the story, the title isn't doing the film any favors. I get where you're coming from on that.

 

Granted, I think all five films have kinda silly names.

[Laserschwert 475]

10 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Just rewatched kotcs today and man, i couldnt believe how young(er) did harrison and Karen look. I wished they had made a trilogy in the 2000-2010s

I had the same feeling, which is so odd, given that in 2008 it was already a point of discussion if he was too old to play the role again. And now seeing Skull, he looked so much younger than we are used to.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

The thing is i was watching it and indy looked like i remember him from air force one or 9 days 7 nights.

 

seriously i cant believe his age was an issue then.

 

as i already pointed out the problem with these late sequels is that we have not seen Indy age naturally but in big steps… so his age look is not taken for granted. It blows in you face at first sight. Which is a shame.

 

im glad williams scored this but in my heart i know i would have preferred the series to end with kotcs. 

[Datameister 2,044]

I've never understood the age concern. It didn't bother me with KOTCS and it didn't bother me with DoD.

 

I admit I was surprised at Karen Allen's appearance in DoD. Kind of odd that they gave her a wig.

[Brónach 1,302]

indy has been called old on screen since the first movie.

[Andy 4,141]

So you’re saying it’s the mileage. 

[Brónach 1,302]

no, he's also old

[Andy 4,141]

You’re not wrong.  The reason this film bombed has nothing to do with reviews or word of mouth.  It’s about an old man who dresses old. He wears all brown. There’s no sex appeal or spandex. There’s no cool technology or computers.  It’s old and dusty and that doesn’t sell tickets, except to your Grandpa. 

[mstrox 6,651]

I think streaming has a lot to do with it, as well.  At this point, everybody knows that a Marvel movie, a Star Wars/Indy movie, etc. will show up on Disney+, which you’re probably already paying for, like three months later.  If I didn’t know with such certainty that I’d have “free” (I know it’s not free) access to the thing very soon and exactly where it would be, I’d have probably trekked to theaters.  Same with recent Marvel movies.  At this point post-COVID-era, the only stuff we’ve bothered to see in theaters has been to make a special day for our kid.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

22 hours ago, Andy said:

There’s no cool technology

 

Hey, old technology is cool!

[Brónach 1,302]

like vinyl!

[Sweeping Strings 2,364]

Well, to this particular old dinosaur a new Indy felt like an event worthy of a cinema visit (or indeed 2). I don't subscribe to Disney+, Netflix or Amazon Prime anyway. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

On 21/07/2023 at 11:33 PM, Luke Skywalker said:

Just rewatched kotcs today and man, i couldnt believe how young(er) did harrison and Karen look. I wished they had made a trilogy in the 2000-2010s

Or just continuing after '89 making three films in the 90s.

[TolkienSS 407]

5 hours ago, mstrox said:

I think streaming has a lot to do with it, as well.  At this point, everybody knows that a Marvel movie, a Star Wars/Indy movie, etc. will show up on Disney+, which you’re probably already paying for, like three months later.  If I didn’t know with such certainty that I’d have “free” (I know it’s not free) access to the thing very soon and exactly where it would be, I’d have probably trekked to theaters.  Same with recent Marvel movies.  At this point post-COVID-era, the only stuff we’ve bothered to see in theaters has been to make a special day for our kid.

 

That's a lousy excuse, that doesn't seem to affect any other movie.

Funny that stuff like this only comes up now with Indy.

Couldn't possibly be that it's just a lousy film.

 

 

[mstrox 6,651]

I’m certainly not here to defend a movie I haven’t seen and don’t want to pay $15 to see!  With only a few outliers, box office has been depressed across the board, well beyond the point where most of the US had stopped caring about COVID.

 

I did pay for the OST twice though, so maybe I am part of The Indy Problem.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

17 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Or just continuing after '89 making three films in the 90s.

Of course. Or even more. As long as you see indy getting older step by step.

[rough cut 1,714]

I already jotted down my initial gripes with the movie here, but have had time to reflect some more about why the movie didn’t work for me.

 

The problem with DoD is that the story isn’t organic. It’s just a bunch of bullshit. And I don’t mean the dial itself - that could have completely worked in an Indy movie.

 

It’s already been pointed out that Spielberg’s guiding hand is sorely missed and I can only agree. It “feels” wrong, there’s something missing.

 

I see it as the failure of the director who maybe wasn’t strong enough to push a singular vision. A stronger director wouldn’t have gotten “lost”.

 

A key word for me of what feels wrong is organic. Nothing feels or comes natural. I’m guessing it is the accumulation of a million tiny annoying things/moments leading up to a climax it doesn’t know how to handle. The script is inconsistent and story beats are non consequential to the story.

First gripe, that has been mentioned many times before, but I just have to chime in:

• Why the hell did they have to kill off Mutt? It’s a “natural order” in society that the son takes over the father’s legacy, and his (off screen) death feels fake. Of course he could’ve bowed out, but then give his character some meaning for God’s sake.

The story limps on in an artificial and non-engaging way, which I guess comes from the creators second guessing them selves (how do we keep continuity without having Mutt appear on screen?) and studio notes of “obligatory” story beats (a strong female character seems to be have one of them).

 

The script itself was poor and inconsistent:

• One moment Indy’s old and frail - the next he’s jumping around like there's no tomorrow. Which is it?
• Why did Helena try to kill him by closing the door on him when they were chase led by the goons?
• What was up with that pointless chase scene with Helena’s boyfriend, that had exactly zero impact on the plot?
• Is it the best option to create a strong female character to have her scream at Indy “I’m a strong, beautiful, independent woman”?
• Why end the movie with Helena knocking out Indy? Really??? Is that the best you could think of?
• Indy’s and Marion’s reconciliation feels completely too hasty handled and thereby fake.

It’s probably hard to write a movie for a franchise of Indy’s stature, so Mangold had no easy task. I’m guessing there are a lot of people to please and a lot of boxes to check. A stronger director might have been able to push through. But, by the heavens, if a bad movie gets bad reviews it deserves it.

[Brónach 1,302]

 some day people are going to realize that Willie Scott could be the Indy girl that's written in a way that creates the least problems, which is highly ironic. in the only movie which seems to have had a woman contributing to the writing, as far as i know, which may be a coincidence. and it's not as simple as "she's a foil and that's funny" i suppose.

[Tom 4,672]

I think the Helena knockout punch was a late addition (I mean, what film writer removes the agency of the lead character in a decision about their very own life and thinks it will be well received), and I think it was metaphor for Mangold himself.  As the film went, he had less and less say as to how the final product would look.  He is telling us he was knocked out and we got what we got.  

[Brónach 1,302]

i know indy survives many things and i'm not again indy getting punched in every movie but being knocked out there and waking up there from fucking who-knows-how long coma without anything to keep him alive?

 

i've said it before by why is this movie so afraid of the time travel stuff.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

Am I the only one who thinks, that Mangold already did that movie about an outdated old hero going on his last adventure to protect a girl from evil vilains chasing them and he more or less already said everything on that subject before in a better way?

Only this time the score is better.

[Jay 37,373]

Yeah

[Alex 2,835]

Saw the movie again. I’ve said it before in this thread, but I am convinced Indy stays in Syracuse in the original script.

[Datameister 2,044]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Saw the movie again. I’ve said it before in this thread, but I am convinced Indy stays in Syracuse in the original script.

 

It wouldn't shock me at all if that were true. Earlier parts of the film work so hard to depict him as a man left behind by the passage of time. Until the final scene—after the punch—he really doesn't have much to hold him in the present. Leaving him in the past would have also lent itself better to the emphatic "THIS IS THE LAST MOVIE" marketing. It wouldn't have made up for the film's fundamental flaw of turning Indy's story into a tragedy, but it might have worked better than what we got. Especially if we got more of a sense throughout the film that Indy's love of history was the only thing that could still really light his fire.

 

Maybe then we could have ended with, like, a Grecian urn in a museum that depicted a wizened adventurer with a hat and whip. Something to indicate he'd had further untold adventures in history. Probably would have been cheesy as hell. But it might have worked.

[Brónach 1,302]

yeah, been saying.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

so i thought today… what happened with this character?

 

should they have used her instead of helena?

 

https://indianajones.fandom.com/wiki/Sophie#:~:text=Sophie was the daughter of,mother of Spike and Lucy.

[rough cut 1,714]

No.

 

The core cast should've been Indy - naturally - with the supporting characters being Mutt and Marion. Maybe Indy and Mutt go on an adventure together, Marion cheering them on in the background. Maybe she gets kidnapped? Or isn't that PC anymore? Then maybe Mutt gets kidnapped, and Indy has to leave Marion (temporarily) to save their son.

 

Just write a classic, organic narrative. Clichés are clichés for a reason. There are lots of family dramas. Family drama has actually been the core of literature for the last 2000 years. Just focus on that, then sprinkle a little Indy-magic on top.

[Brónach 1,302]

"first abandon the indy magic, then sprinkle some indy-magic on top"

 

i don't think they ever needed Marion, or to invent a son, or to have a cameo of Sallah, or to bring back Marion again, or to kill Mutt. You need maybe, perhaps, at most Ke Huy Quan tops, with no explanation. The rest is just going in circles and making "canon" and chronologies and family dramas where there ought to not be.

[TolkienSS 407]

15 hours ago, Alex said:

Saw the movie again. I’ve said it before in this thread, but I am convinced Indy stays in Syracuse in the original script.

 

Indy DIES in the past in the original script and never existed.

[Datameister 2,044]

4 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Indy DIES in the past in the original script and never existed.

 

Conjecture? Joke? Or has this been confirmed? Regardless, how would dying in the past cause him to have never existed?