Tom 4,661 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Jurassic Shark, ragoz350 and Will 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Black Sunday Fugue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,661 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Fine, I will expand the poll. Is the Asteroid Field a technical fugue? March of the Resistance seems more fugue-like than an actual fugue, so I left it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,363 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Ooh, so much delicious ear candy to choose from, it's basically impossible to select just one favorite. I went for Setting the Trap because it has strong nostalgic associations from the first time I watched the scene that it was scored for. But Shark Cage Fugue and Quidditch Yr 3 are close runner-ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Shark Fugue!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Setting the Trap, followed very closely by Quidditch, Third Year. Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,661 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Watching Home Alone again this Christmas, he does such a nice job having the choir in the background sing Carol of the Bells and then Star of Bethlehem back to back. You mind is perfectly (and somehow unknowingly) prepared for a fugue of both melodies. I don't think the Fugue for Changing Times is the best, but damn, the energy of that piece--and that climax. Concert version now please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,843 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 If not March of the Resistance, then Quidditch Year Three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Schilkeman 964 Posted January 12 Popular Post Share Posted January 12 I don't hear anything fugal in Asteroid chase. There's lots of counterpoint, but it's not a fugue. artguy360, BrotherSound, Trope and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GerateWohl 4,370 Posted January 12 Popular Post Share Posted January 12 44 minutes ago, Schilkeman said: I don't hear anything fugal in Asteroid chase. There's lot's of counterpoint, but it's not a fugue. Basically the same for "Quidditch, Third Year", I think. ins, TheUlyssesian and QuartalHarmony 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schilkeman 964 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 4 minutes ago, GerateWohl said: Basically the same for "Quidditch, Third Year", I think. No, there's definitely a mini fugue at 0:44, but much like Setting the Trap, it's so short it's arguable that it's a "real" fugue. Falstaft and GerateWohl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igger6 894 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I've been wondering about the minimum requirements for a true fugue since March of the Resistance was released. Let's see if this works like in the commercials: Like a good neighbor, @Falstaft is there! Maybe he'll appear out of thin air and explain fugues to us! Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schilkeman 964 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 At its most basic, it needs a subject, which is repeated in a second voice but with different pitches, known as exposition, development, and a final closing section. Some of these examples have an exposition and an then go into free counterpoint. Most of them are not long enough to have counter subjects or recapitulation, due to the needs of the film. I think Shark Cage Fugue, Black Sunday, and Fugue for Changing Times are proper fugues. I think it's probably more accurate to call some of these fugal, rather than fugues. Trope 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Difficult choice, but I choose BLACK SUNDAY because I've always felt it's a more typical and elegant fugue than the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Schilkeman said: No, there's definitely a mini fugue at 0:44, but much like Setting the Trap, it's so short it's arguable that it's a "real" fugue. But then March of the Resistance with its mini Fugue at 1:10 would qualify as well. Andy and BB-8 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuartalHarmony 543 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 There's a very short (only 10-20 seconds?) but quite formally 'correct' fugue on brass interpolated seemingly quite randomly into the end of ESB (during the Falcon's escape, if memory serves), but I can't quite locate it just at the moment. Ah, got it: Agree that many of the examples above don't strike me as being fugues in any sense I understand the term. Tallguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GerateWohl 4,370 Posted January 12 Popular Post Share Posted January 12 39 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said: There's a very short (only 10-20 seconds?) but quite formally 'correct' fugue on brass interpolated seemingly quite randomly into the end of ESB (during the Falcon's escape, if memory serves), but I can't quite locate it just at the moment. Ah, got it: This is more or less just a canon form, that Williams uses quite often as some kind of echo of the first voice in the second voice, not a fugue. Like here: Trope, QuartalHarmony and Falstaft 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schilkeman 964 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Yes, Williams uses a lot of direct imitation, call and response type writing. It's a good way to fill time, or improv/vamp his way into another musical idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Oh, I thought I entered the fungus thread. Anyway, I choose the most fuguey piece, Shark Cage Fugue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,349 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I went for Shark Cage, though Setting the Trap comes close. Is Asteroid Field a fugue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 If Setting the Trap counts, then certainly March of the Resistance does as well. But Asteroid Field? Why? Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 By the way, as with "Fugue for Changing Times" also a non film work is incuded, maybe "Prelude and Fugue" should get added as well? Thor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,138 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Voted Shark Cage. Are we confusing Asteroid Field (The first part with the Imperial March) with a scherzo instead of a fugue? Someone start a scherzo poll. Williams is the King of the Scherzo. GerateWohl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 12 Popular Post Share Posted January 12 8 hours ago, igger6 said: I've been wondering about the minimum requirements for a true fugue since March of the Resistance was released. Let's see if this works like in the commercials: Like a good neighbor, @Falstaft is there! I've been summoned! Exact definitions differ between theorists of course, but there is a pretty stable consensus concerning what's genuinely fugal, what's canonical or imitative, and what's just polyphonically busy. For a fugue, it's all about that incremental feeling. One voice introduces the fugue's main idea ("subject") in full, then another comes in repeating it while the first offers a countermelody ("answer"), and so on. Traditionally, these need to be at quite specific tonal levels -- the second either in ("real") or on ("tonal") the key of the dominant. And back and forth it goes until all seperate contrapuntal strands are introduced, usually 3-4 voices in total. I'm simplifying a lot, though it's worth pointing out that Williams almost never writes fugues by completely by the "book." The key thing is that feeling of accretion, of rising intricacy, of one melodic subject chasing another, 14 hours ago, Tom said: Fine, I will expand the poll. Is the Asteroid Field a technical fugue? March of the Resistance seems more fugue-like than an actual fugue, so I left it out. As breathtaking as it is, I'm afraid there's nothing fugal in the Asteroid Field. March of the Resistance's middle section includes definite but quite unconventional fugal exposition that modulates up by fifth three times, from F to D, and doesn't have a consistent countersubject. A few years ago I gave a talk on all things neo-Baroque in Williams, which included transcribing all of his fugues, fugatos, and canonic passages. It's a marvelous thing to behold. In any case, my vote is for Black Sunday. igger6, Miguel Andrade, Thor and 17 others 10 2 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Maestro 147 Posted January 12 Popular Post Share Posted January 12 Now THIS is primo JWFan content! igger6, Bayesian, A. A. Ron and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, GerateWohl said: By the way, as with "Fugue for Changing Times" also a non film work is incuded, maybe "Prelude and Fugue" should get added as well? Should definitely be considered. A great piece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 58 minutes ago, Falstaft said: Exact definitions differ between theorists of course, but there is a pretty stable consensus boundaries between what's genuinely fugal, what's canonical or imitative, and what's just polyphonically busy. For a fugue, it's all about that incremental feeling. One voice introduces the fugue's main idea ("subject") in full, then another comes in repeating it while the first offers a countermelody ("answer"), and so on. Traditionally, these need to be at quite specific tonal levels -- the second either in ("real") or on ("tonal") the key of the dominant. And back and forth it goes until all seperate contrapuntal strands are introduced, usually 3-4 voices in total. I'm simplifying a lot, though it's worth pointing out that Williams almost never writes fugues by completely by the "book." The key thing is that feeling of accretion, of rising intricacy, of one melodic subject chasing another, How fuguey would you say the Shark Cage fugue is? I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, Jurassic Shark said: I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend? Good luck. I've always thought it's one of the most difficult things to pull off; with the second or third melody line matching exactly, harmonically, with the other ones they are overlapping. (yes, yes, I know I'm speaking out of my depth here, since I'm not a musicologist, but you know what I mean). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 19 minutes ago, Thor said: Good luck. I've always thought it's one of the most difficult things to pull off; with the second or third melody line matching exactly, harmonically, with the other ones they are overlapping. (yes, yes, I know I'm speaking out of my depth here, since I'm not a musicologist, but you know what I mean). I think you have to compose the melody lines simultaneously, adjusting them to fit each other. I will encode Thor OST in music and make a fugue out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,370 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I believe, the real challenge is to play the fugue with two hands and make each of the five voices really listenable. And if you stay with each voice just in one key and stick to the default intervals like the dominant mentioned by Falstaft it should be managable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,363 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Falstaft said: I've been summoned! Exact definitions differ between theorists of course, but there is a pretty stable consensus concerning what's genuinely fugal, what's canonical or imitative, and what's just polyphonically busy. For a fugue, it's all about that incremental feeling. One voice introduces the fugue's main idea ("subject") in full, then another comes in repeating it while the first offers a countermelody ("answer"), and so on. Traditionally, these need to be at quite specific tonal levels -- the second either in ("real") or on ("tonal") the key of the dominant. And back and forth it goes until all seperate contrapuntal strands are introduced, usually 3-4 voices in total. I'm simplifying a lot, though it's worth pointing out that Williams almost never writes fugues by completely by the "book." The key thing is that feeling of accretion, of rising intricacy, of one melodic subject chasing another, As breathtaking as it is, I'm afraid there's nothing fugal in the Asteroid Field. March of the Resistance's middle section includes definite but quite unconventional fugal exposition that modulates up by fifth three times, from F to D, and doesn't have a consistent countersubject. A few years ago I gave a talk on all things neo-Baroque in Williams, which included transcribing all of his fugues, fugatos, and canonic passages. It's a marvelous thing to behold. In any case, my vote is for Black Sunday. Monsieur le professeur, would you be able to share that talk with us?? Slide deck with annotated score snippets would be just darling, but we’d take talking points scribbled on a cocktail napkin if that’s all you had in your archives. I guarantee you wouldn’t find a more captivated or grateful audience! igger6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,515 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 My vote goes to Setting the Trap. It has the best-sounding subject. 3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend? My personal recommendation is Kent Kennan's Counterpoint. One of the best music theory books I've read, period. 3 hours ago, Thor said: Good luck. I've always thought it's one of the most difficult things to pull off; with the second or third melody line matching exactly, harmonically, with the other ones they are overlapping. It's difficult, but in my experience writing a canon (that sounds interesting) is more challenging. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: How fuguey would you say the Shark Cage fugue is? I've been thinking about getting more into the details of fugue writing, in order to give it a go myself. Which textbook(s) would you recommend? Shark Cage is brilliant. The quartal organization of the subject is really nicely reflected in the Orca Theme. I had the Kent Kennan counterpoint book as an undergrad too, and it's excellent. But really, the best teacher is Bach. Just sit down with the Well Tempered Clavier some time. Start by flagrantly copying him. You'll pick up on the technique through imitation. 4 hours ago, Bayesian said: Monsieur le professeur, would you be able to share that talk with us?? Slide deck with annotated score snippets would be just darling, but we’d take talking points scribbled on a cocktail napkin if that’s all you had in your archives. I guarantee you wouldn’t find a more captivated or grateful audience! Haha, my cocktail napkins are definitely not worth preserving! The whole talk isn't really fit for sharing in the state it's in. But this thread has given me a spur to revisit it and turn it into a proper article. Once I get this other big thing out of the way, it'll probably be my next JW project. Oh, and here's a "Guess That Score" challenge. Can anyone place where this canonic passage from Williams comes from, and why it may be an especially appropriate use of the technique?: Jurassic Shark and Bayesian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,079 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, Falstaft said: Once I get this other big thing out of the way How's the book going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 10 minutes ago, Falstaft said: Oh, and here's a "Guess That Score" challenge. Can anyone place where this canonic passage from Williams comes from, and why it may be an especially appropriate use of the technique?: Spoiler Pulling the Can(n)on! 1:18-1:38 Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTN 2,030 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I wanted to vote for Shark Cage, but voted for The Asteroid Field. SC feels more like a traditional fugue, so maybe I'm changing my vote to that one. But I adore both pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 14 hours ago, JTW said: SC feels more like a traditional fugue That's because Asteroid Field doesn't even belong in this poll. I've always wondered if Belly of the Steal Beast was initially supposed to develop into a full fugue. Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,466 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 I don't even know what a fugue is. What I do know is that are all great cues, whether they're true fugues or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,661 Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 Okay, I have eliminated The Asteroid Field (good thing that asteroids have never concerned me), and added Prelude and Fugue and March of the Resistance. For those who voted for Asteroid--vote again! Edit: I love the learned discussions going on. Falstaft's remarks are just so readily instructive for the novice like me. With Asteroid field not being a fugue, is it then the case the March of the Resistance is the first in the SW canon, or am I missing something else? Perhaps I am drinking too much, but I love JWFAN. Falstaft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 20 Popular Post Share Posted February 20 Late to the party, but thought I would add that there seems to be a connection between Williams' use of fugues in film and that of William Walton. The 1942 film, The First of the Few, is about the conception and construction of Britain's Spitfire fighter plane for World War II. In the scene where the Spitfire is finally being assembled, Walton writes a fugue. Now as @Falstaft rightly pointed out, a fugue is basically a texture that is built up one voice (melody line) at a time. The first voice announces the line that is the whole basis of the fugue, and is always called the "subject". Then another line enters with the same melody, as a rule transposed (usually up) by 5th to become the "answer", while the first voice continues with other material. Then another voice enters with the same melody, and so on... Anyway, I lay this out again because I think this idea of gradually building up a texture from a single line nicely captures something in the process of making preparations. Things start off simply but become increasingly complex, and all the "moving parts", so to speak, need to work together for the plans to come off properly. So take a look below at the way Walton does it in The First of the Few (should start at 7:51 for you). I think this is essentially how Williams uses his film fugues as well - Jaws, Black Sunday, and Home Alone. So it seems that he picked up this kind of association from Walton and really ran with it, giving it new life in key scenes from these films. Jay, Marian Schedenig, Fabulin and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Nice! I've never heard the original version before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 On 13/01/2024 at 5:45 PM, Tom said: With Asteroid field not being a fugue, is it then the case the March of the Resistance is the first in the SW canon, or am I missing something else? Not really a fugue, but don't forget ROTJ has that bit in Shuttle Tydirium Approaches Endor around 3:16 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,835 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Does “The Hunt” count as a fugue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Alex said: Does “The Hunt” count as a fugue? Don't see how it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeping Strings 2,363 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 They had some good stuff back in the day, Lauryn Hill's a helluva vocalist. lol? Jay and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,835 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 10 hours ago, Faleel said: Don't see how it would. Yeah sorry I was thinking of something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,369 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 13 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said: They had some good stuff back in the day, Lauryn Hill's a helluva vocalist. Sweeping Strings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,353 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 On 20/02/2024 at 5:53 PM, Faleel said: Not really a fugue, but don't forget ROTJ has that bit in Shuttle Tydirium Approaches Endor around 3:16 . Another, from Raiders: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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