Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I think it's great! crumbs and Smaug The Iron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,528 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 "It's alright"* *Margo Channing Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 That Margo character... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bryant Burnette 654 Posted April 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2018 I love it, especially the little hint of Darth Vader's theme that never quiiiiiite develops. crumbs, Cerebral Cortex, Jurassic Shark and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted April 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2018 As far as bringing back an older theme in this score...man, did Williams take the ball, chew it out, then pimp slap it out of the park. The reprise of Luke and Leia is so tender, yet also carries this certain tension that smacks me right in the heart. The ostinato thing feels very strange for John Williams to do in a Star Wars movie, but I think it works. crumbs, The Illustrious Jerry, Smaug The Iron and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 To me, the ostinato part is the highlight of the cue. I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the movie was temp tracked with Bruckner. Cerebral Cortex and Nick Parker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasey Kockroach 2,344 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 It's better than bad! It's good! Smaug The Iron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,482 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 It's a mashup of what... three already well known themes... bravo. Mitth'raw'nuorodo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Balahkay 627 Posted April 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2018 It's definitely the highlight of the score and film, IMO. It features the final farewell to the original heroes of the OT (Luke, Leia and Han) with the use of themes and Luke handing the dice to Leia. Jurassic Shark, artguy360 and Cerebral Cortex 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaug The Iron 515 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 It's great! Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, Bryant Burnette said: I love it, especially the little hint of Darth Vader's theme that never quiiiiiite develops. I doubt that was in any way intentional. Weren't people hearing the Imperial March in the action material of the climax of The Phantom Menace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post John 2,032 Posted April 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I doubt that was in any way intentional. Weren't people hearing the Imperial March in the action material of the climax of The Phantom Menace? It is very much intentional. I don't see how anyone can't hear the deliberate parallel between the piece and Vader's theme. Falstaft, crumbs, Bryant Burnette and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 21, 2018 Author Share Posted April 21, 2018 Chen prefers to have unique opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I hear the similarity alright. Doesn't mean its intentional. There's certainly nothing in the scene that recalls Vader, and Williams had been very, very concise with his use of that theme in the sequel scores. Doesn't take anything away from the track, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2018 As both a combination of film and image and a standalone cue, it's a knock out (if Luke could kill, he probably will...). I can't be the only one who sees it as a natural development of the Jedi Steps theme (which is in itself a sly evocation of Vader's theme). It's as if Williams is observing that in his final act of mastery, Luke has now fully integrated his own shadow with his self into a well-functioning whole, though a process of individuation. This process has been mediated by his soul-image or anima, in the form of Yoda (and to some extent Rey), the spiritual middle-man between his conscious and unconscious. His tainted family history (Vader) and youthful rebellion has been reconciled with his noble Jedi ideals. The dark now at one with the light. That's my bit of cod Jung for the day. Jurassic Shark, Not Mr. Big, John and 12 others 12 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I agree with Chen in that I don't think there's intention there to call back to Vader. For me, it's really cool music that plays as Luke strides out of the hunkered saloon to face the banditos in the empty streets. Not Mr. Big, SingeMoisi, John and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, John said: It is very much intentional. I don't see how anyone can't hear the deliberate parallel between the piece and Vader's theme. People cannot hear the note for note quote of the BotH in Paige's death either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Sharky said: As both a combination of film and image and a standalone cue, it's a knock out (if Luke could kill, he probably will...). I can't be the only one who sees it as a natural development of the Jedi Steps theme (which is in itself a sly evocation of Vader's theme). It's as Williams is observing that in his final act of mastery, Luke has now fully integrated his own shadow with his self into a well-functioning whole, in a process of individuation. This process has been mediated by his soul-image or anima, in the form of Yoda (and to some extent Rey), the spiritual middle-man between his conscious and unconscious. His tainted family history (Vader) and youthful rebellion has been reconciled with his noble Jedi ideals. The dark now one with the light. That's my bit of cod Jung for the day. Concise yet provocative and insightful. Where the fuck have you been mate? Compare this to some of the pseudo intellectual preachery floating about lately. Not Mr. Big and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 We will watch his career with great interest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I listened to it after you posted about it so much, and I’m not clear what is the “good part.” Is it toward the beginning, or toward the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, TGP said: Concise yet provocative and insightful. Thanks mate. If my ADD's good for one thing it's concision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 It fits the movie perfectly and is a great listen full of familiar and new tunes. Mysterious opening Luke and Leia Han Solo and the Princess (as Luke gives Leia the dice) and then that ending I think we all love as Luke steps out onto the battlefield. Smaug The Iron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, TGP said: Concise yet provocative and insightful. Where the fuck have you been mate? Compare this to some of the pseudo intellectual preachery floating about lately. Agreed. One of the few truly insightful posts made in the last few months here (as opposed to the 7,000 word posts arguing over semantics that usually populate these threads) Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Pellaeon said: I listened to it after you posted about it so much, and I’m not clear what is the “good part.” Is it toward the beginning, or toward the end? All of it's great, from the funereal, split-third brass choir underscoring Leia's quiet resignation; to the diaphanous, chromatic passage as Luke emerges from the shadows; to the tender medley of Ben & Luke & Leia & Hans' themes for the reunion; and finally that insistent, Adams-ian scale-up as Luke walks out to face the dragon. Smaug The Iron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,316 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Beautifully summed up. The entire cue is utter perfection. It feels like the most polished, most refined and best performed cue in the entire score. Probably of any score he's written in over a decade. Something just "clicks" with this piece, in a perfect combination of direction, visuals and music, yet it also stands alone as an incredible piece outside the film itself (like all great music does). Cerebral Cortex and Smaug The Iron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted April 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Nick Parker said: The reprise of Luke and Leia is so tender, yet also carries this certain tension that smacks me right in the heart. When the sequel trilogy was first announced, that was the theme I had most wanted reprised from the OT. The theme itself has always been one of the more emotionally-driven themes from Star Wars for me, but then to have it played within the scene under the now unfortunate context of it being the last scene we'll get between Fisher and Hamill makes it that much more so. The second half, as has already been summed up here more concisely than I ever can be, is absolutely fantastic. The complete silence in the theater as we see Luke step out to that slow build of the cue, with the captivation and engrossment from the audience so palpable in the air, was hands down the biggest highlight of my moviegoing experiences last year. I really like how this trilogy has seen almost a blending of the ways Williams wrote themes for the prequel and original trilogies, with most of the thematic material being character-based as was seen with the OT but still getting great thematic statements for the big event moments within the film like we saw a lot with the PT (seeing Luke at the end of TFA, Luke embracing the legend as he steps out to face Kylo in TLJ, etc). It's also just great fun to have, like we do with that last half of the cue, something from Williams that I can't point to and say that it sounds like something he previously wrote. You just hear it and wonder "woah, where did that come from?" Not Mr. Big, crumbs, Sharkissimo and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 I don't mind it. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,316 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Cerebral Cortex said: something from Williams that I can't point to and say that it sounds like something he previously wrote. You just hear it and wonder "woah, where did that come from?" Yes! I haven't felt that way since No Man's Land in War Horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 8 minutes ago, Margo Channing said: I don't mind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallguy 3,389 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Tom said: People cannot hear the note for note quote of the BotH in Paige's death either. I hear it. It made me twitch when I saw it in the theater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 22, 2018 Author Share Posted April 22, 2018 Well, she was a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted April 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2018 It's great!! The entire score is awesome!! crumbs, Jurassic Shark and Balahkay 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Tom said: People cannot hear the note for note quote of the BotH in Paige's death either. Another great example of coincidence. Williams has written about 20 hours of music for this series. Some of it is bound to sound like other parts of it, by sheer coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 22, 2018 Author Share Posted April 22, 2018 Yes, but it's only JW himself who knows whether these similarities are coincidences or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 12 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: To me, the ostinato part is the highlight of the cue. I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the movie was temp tracked with Bruckner. Marian, is that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,012 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 12 hours ago, Nick Parker said: As far as bringing back an older theme in this score...man, did Williams take the ball, chew it out, then pimp slap it out of the park. The reprise of Luke and Leia is so tender, yet also carries this certain tension that smacks me right in the heart. The ostinato thing feels very strange for John Williams to do in a Star Wars movie, but I think it works. Almost every single SW scores does something strange... The Magic Tree, Dark Side Beckons, Duel of the Fates, Padme's Ruminations, Coruscant chase. Karol Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 22, 2018 Author Share Posted April 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Marian, is that you? If you'd heard Bruckner's symphonies you'd realize that the stylistic similarities in the latter half of The Spark are striking. There's more to music than just film music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,012 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: If you'd heard Bruckner's symphonies you'd realize that the stylistic similarities in the latter half of The Spark are striking. Can we have a clip from Bruckner? Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 22, 2018 Author Share Posted April 22, 2018 I'm referring to Bruckner's style of drawn-out, monumental build-ups, found in all of his symphonies, for example in these movements: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,482 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Ask me to mix three well-known themes from Star Wars, I'll write you an arrangement in 2 minutes. Don't know what people are so excited about this. JW do that since 40 years! 1977 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,076 Posted April 22, 2018 Author Share Posted April 22, 2018 The ending, Bes, the ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,482 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 13 hours ago, TGP said: Concise yet provocative and insightful. Where the fuck have you been mate? Compare this to some of the pseudo intellectual preachery floating about lately. This cue made me blow my load all over the cinema! Dixon Hill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Quintus said: This cue made me blow my load all over the cinema! Just like what happened to Cindy in Scary Movie 1 and 2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,658 Posted April 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Chen G. said: Another great example of coincidence. Williams has written about 20 hours of music for this series. Some of it is bound to sound like other parts of it, by sheer coincidence. It would be a coincidence if it appeared in a non-SW score. The theme is part of the concert suite for ROTS. I would even guess the scene was tempted with the damn thing. Williams did not just stumble into the same 9 nine note melody. I am not saying he is trying to connect the theme to that moment for narrative reasons, but I guarantee he knew it was his own theme from ROTS when he put it in TLJ. Jurassic Shark, Smaug The Iron and crumbs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,287 Posted April 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2018 Yeah, I agree. I don't think this stuff just flies past him. Whatever time went into looking at that scene, writing the music for that little moment, conducting/recording it, I just can't believe that John Williams himself wouldn't notice that it sounds a bit like Battle of the Heroes. Most of us heard it on the first listen. It doesn't require careful observation. Like you said, I doubt there's deep meaning behind it. Maybe it was something that accidentally came out while he was sketching or improvising and he kept it for fun because it's Star Wars and Star Wars is fun. Maybe it was in the temp and one of Rian Johnson's personal favorites so he left it in as a surprise for his director, and the fanboys can make a thread if they're upset. But he's gotta be aware. I'm sure there's a fairly benign reason why "Talk of Podracing" randomly shows up in Force Awakens too, by the way. Again, maybe that was in the temp and he and JJ looked at each other and went "That's kinda nice!" Once I got past that initial anxiety of "WHY?!?!?!" it really is just a small and sweet way to blend it in with the prequels, even if it's for no particular reason. As for "The Spark" ostinato sounding like "Imperial March"...I don't think that's coincidence. I just can't see Williams going "Oops" if we pointed that out. Like we're so clever. John Williams has conducted "The Imperial March" hundreds of times in concert since he wrote it. He's studied, rehearsed, performed it with every great orchestra in America. He's heard it played everywhere, unexpectedly. Over and over and over and over and over. Every year. For decades. He's incorporated it subtly and overtly into seven film scores. He is 86 and by all accounts -- judging by how articulate he is in interviews, comments from people who are still working with him, and the work itself -- he's sharp as a tack. That dude is not missing anything. Come on. He knows what it sounds like. Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. Williams spent a lot of time with both characters, thinking about their stories, writing music to express them and ultimately tie them together effectively and intelligently. The march is the menacing theme for the Skywalker patriarch and at the end of Last Jedi, his son and grandson are ready to face off with his daughter watching? That's a big legacy moment. Ben Solo rules the First Order and Luke Skywalker himself is a darker figure than we have seen him before and this is him at the height of his powers. He's our good guy hero but not so innocent anymore. He's dangerous, mysterious, threatening. Dad's hanging around. I think the "Jedi Steps" reveal of Luke is harmonically related to "Imperial March" for similar reasons, and the trumpet triplets evoking the end of the concert piece when Kylo Ren first appears in Force Awakens aren't coincidence either. I don't think this stuff is always about overt melodic references with Williams. I think he enjoys going " same color, different brush" or vice versa. There are pretty good reasons why a lot of Kylo Ren's stuff sounds like various bits of ROTS underscore too. Yeah, there's the temp, but I think he followed it when it made sense to him. It's a simple story and these connections are pretty clean as far as I'm concerned. John Williams has proven far too often that he doesn't miss a beat. It's why his scores are so good. He's too smart for this crap. Taikomochi, Smaug The Iron, ins and 9 others 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Bespin said: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Amen. I am the beginning, the end. The one who is many. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 To assume infallibility on the part of Williams is unrealistic and irrational. Besides, to say that these supposed “connections” are not intended doesn’t take anything from the quality of the pieces, themselves. It reminds me of people hearing “Nature’s Reclamation” as Merry and Pippin hide around in Amon Hen, as if to presage their arrival to Fangorn. Come on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,287 Posted April 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2018 I'm not saying he's infallible altogether. I'm sure he has tons of brain farts with his music accidentally sounding like other things, composed by himself or others. But a major climactic piece of a Star Wars score by John Williams that is built around a specific motif that deliberately repeats over and over and just happens to sound like Imperial March? I really don't think that went over his head. I'm not saying he was conscious of all those specific reasons I pinpointed. I'm saying that I think he probably evoked it on purpose, perhaps based on an initial thought like "Luke is powerful and ominous here and reminds me that he is Vader's son" and these connections start coming out because he has great instincts as a composer and dramatist. And if it is coincidence, it's not blind but well-informed by his previous work on these movies and half a lifetime with Star Wars music rolling around in his head. crumbs, Jurassic Shark and Falstaft 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 I think you're forcing your logic onto Williams' thinking. Williams thematic connections are usually quite straight forward. If it isn't readily appearant, it probably isn't intentional. And there's nothing readily appearant in the sequence that recalls or evokes Vader. Williams has been very, very strict with his use of the Imperial March in the sequel trilogy, using it in concise statements and only in conjuction with direct evocations of Vader. This has happened before, in The Phantom Menace. Here's What Doug Adams said to that: Quote A handful of listeners have wondered if Williams has used a pared-down version of The Imperial March for a repeating action pattern in one of Phantom Menace’s space battle cues. The ostinato in question—which can be heard on the CD’s fifth track—does bear a passing resemblance to Vader’s theme, but it seems to be more the by-product of Williams’s harmonic style than anything else. Coupled with the fact that the scenes this cue underscores don’t particularly involve the Anakin character or his destiny, it appears no connection was intended. Oh, how history repeats itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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