Edmilson 7,457 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 4 hours ago, Arpy said: He's not completely lost, you can find more reliable news sources from outside the mainstream media. Here where I live people these days are finding their reliable news sources throught WhatsApp, so a lot of people actually believe in bizarre stuff like baby bottles with penises would be distributed on daycares, to turn kids gay since early age. They were called "mamadeira de piroca" ("dick baby bottles"). crumbs and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Bottom line, This article is damaging to John Williams and will be read by a fair amount of people since it's a high profile publication crumbs, Will, tmarps and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,457 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Hildur reading the article: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmarps 217 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 23 minutes ago, King Mark said: Bottom line, This article is damaging to John Williams and will be read by a fair amount of people since it's a high profile publication Hopefully anyone with half a brain who happens to have the misfortune to read the article contained within a journalistic silo will see through the "woke" bullshit that oozes out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils 35 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I generally detest it when something is labeled «Politically Correct», because usually that’s just a cheap way of denigrating an opinion that happens to be more liberal than your own. But jeez... if something ever deserved the label, it’s got to be that article. I’m astonished at how badly researched it is (as others here have pointed out through plenty of examples). Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry O 115 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said: Still, he was a brilliant music critic and hugely influential social theorist; his book on Wagner is especially a tour de force. It's just that no one especially wants to read him any more, most musicologists included... So what you're saying is he's the Pauline Kael of music criticism Falstaft and Sharkissimo 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Can that still be called Political correctness or this "woke" thing is way beyond that? I wasn't familiar with the term until today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,513 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 'woke' appears to denote those identifying as or claiming to be the avant garde of political correctness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Larry O 115 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 God this is such a weird thing to even have to broach on a place like JWFan... "Woke" simply means aware. That's it. "Stay Woke" is basically a call to pay attention to what's out there and looking to hurt you and yours. Over time it came to mean something more like "pay attention to political happenings and cultural movements seeking to make life worse for you or your friends," and through that usage, the term became first overused (as any popular bit of slang will) and eventually rendered meaningless by its transformation into a meme. At that point, it became demonized on top of losing its meaning, by people not just upset at the obnoxious overuse of the term, but also by the notion other people might actually believe in progressive ideas and movements, and whose cynical nature leaves them inclined to regard such statements or discussions as purely performative and "fake" for the sake of earning internet points from fellow "virtue signalers." At this point, the only people who still even use the term "Woke" are people who more or less the reject the entire concept of "Social Justice" (another term with a long history in America that has only recently become demonized and rendered useless by people made uncomfortable by its modern usage) and are mockingly/ironically deploying the term to diminish and demean the people who might have once earnestly used the descriptor. I'm honestly really surprised how often this sort of ugly, antisocial, and dismissive discourse tends to pop up here, of all places, a site dedicated to enjoying the music of John Williams, but hopefully this might help a few people out? I don't know. But there are lots of ways - more constructive ways, as more than a few posters here have shown - to engage with how poorly thought-out and badly written this thinkpiece at the Post is than to indulge in... whatever all the rest of this ugly stuff is. Falstaft, mstrox, The Lost Folio and 5 others 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Quintus 5,399 Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, Larry O said: "Woke" simply means aware. That's it. "Stay Woke" is basically a call to pay attention to what's out there and looking to hurt you and yours. Over time it came to mean something more like "pay attention to political happenings and cultural movements seeking to make life worse for you or your friends," Over time it came to mean, "be hysterically sensitive towards and hysterically sensitive about literally everything and anything." Tydirium, crumbs, Not Mr. Big and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 26 minutes ago, Larry O said: I'm honestly really surprised how often this sort of ugly, antisocial, and dismissive discourse tends to pop up here, of all places, a site dedicated to enjoying the music of John Williams, but hopefully this might help a few people out? I don't know. But there are lots of ways - more constructive ways, as more than a few posters here have shown - to engage with how poorly thought-out and badly written this thinkpiece at the Post is than to indulge in... whatever all the rest of this ugly stuff is. "Ugly stuff"? "Antisocial"? People in this thread seem to be getting along alright, for the most part... It's strange that you appear to be trying to make a mountain out of not-even-a-mole-hill, here. 2 minutes ago, Quintus said: Over time it came to mean, "be hysterically sensitive towards and hysterically sensitive about literally everything and anything." Exactly. Fabulin and Arpy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 8 hours ago, Josh500 said: Yup. Like I said, the totally ignorant and clueless. I call them the "sheep."🤣👆 Aww you’re so deranged it’s adorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Poll500 is the Poll Pot of JWFan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edmilson 7,457 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 Look, I'm all about people learning to respect other cultures and people from different backgrounds. I'm all about giving opportunities for less favored people, specially the ones from under-represented cultures, to shine on culture, sports, business, politics, etc. I come from one of the most unequal countries on the world. Right here, the culture from indigenous and black people are being torned apart by the white, Christian elites, with religions like "Umbanda" being hunted mercilessly all over the country. That said, this woke culture has evolved (or, actually, retroceded) from something that could bring new opportunities to minorities to something resembling a witch hunt, on which the smallest details are enough to label a person or a work of art racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. Thanks to social media and this terrifying XXI century monster called Cancel Culture, people are hysterically sensitive and outrageous about small and silly stuff. The worst part: it is having the exact opposite effect than what it was intended for. Instead of making people more aware of the difficulties that minorities face, it makes them angry and revolted to see their idols being attacked by some opinion columnist or a Twitter mob. It's ridiculous! So, either the "woke people" wake up (lol) and starts realizing that their angry tweets and articles are having the opposite effect, or they'll end having amassed more antipathy than sympathy for minorities. Tydirium, crumbs, MikeH and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 @Larry O There's social justice, then there's this bullshit. Tydirium and Trent B 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Nils said: I generally detest it when something is labeled «Politically Correct», because usually that’s just a cheap way of denigrating an opinion that happens to be more liberal than your own. No, it's an effective way to identify viewpoints that are fundamentally more censorious than your own. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,483 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Racist film music, cool! The Illustrious Jerry and Tydirium 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Sandpeople! Worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 16 hours ago, Josh500 said: Washington Post, along with The New York Times and several other "big names," are among the worst propaganda newspapers in existence today. Rivals Goebbel's propaganda in Nazi Germany, and that's no joke. If you are totally ignorant and clueless, you might believe the opposite. That said, I didn't even finish reading the quote about JW. No thanks! Thank you. What a steaming pile of revisionist shit. How do these people get in the position to pollute the public to this degree of misguided diarrhea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Offenthive Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,316 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 I guess Howard Shore is racist for his orchestration of Smaug's music. Jackson should have fired him and hired a dragon to compose that theme! _deleted_, Edmilson, The Illustrious Jerry and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 This is a perfect example for what is permeating society anyway: people wouldn't even consider John Williams music as whatever this dirt sheet writer is implying, unless someone told them they should. That's how the game always goes. It's bordering on mind control. Tydirium and Bayesian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 The article was probably written by one of these nuts gkgyver, Dr. Rick and Tydirium 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 There's no way to slice this article's contention to be viewed in any favorable light. You're either for the freedom of artistic expression through cultural appropriation, or you're creating more boundaries by saying who can and can't use what instrument and in what manner they're used for. You're throwing intent and context away. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the subtextual connotations of Williams, Shore and modern film composers appropriating Eastern instrumentation isn't just nefarious, but some form of blind ignorance to their oppression and othering of minorities... Yeah right. What's Jazz then when composers other than African Americans write it or play it? Or by extension film scoring, a beautiful melting pot of genre, culture and artistic expression when you reduce it to these strict cultural boundaries? The reason this article has me so riled up is that when real progress is made in areas where these issues are better fought, you have these articles that unceremoniously take a swipe at low hanging fruit and in doing so take a giant step back and proactively weaken the legitimacy of other arguments for it. MikeH, Edmilson, Tydirium and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Our good friend @Bespin has been finding examples of these little cultural nuggets long before this bloke! Had to think of this. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I had a friend recently accuse me of being racist just because I named my cat Gomez. I was bewildered by this ignorant assumption. When I pressed her on what the hell she meant by that, like how does my naming of my cat indicate that I harbour hatred towards I presume a latin ethnic group, she fumbled for an answer but made no sense. I mean is she only satisfied if I name my pets safe and approved English names or stereotypically cat names like Fluffy or Mittens? Gomez is just a nice name and I felt it suited him. My friend is a fucking idiot. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, Arpy said: There's no way to slice this article's contention to be viewed in any favorable light. You're either for the freedom of artistic expression through cultural appropriation, or you're creating more boundaries by saying who can and can't use what instrument and in what manner they're used for. You're throwing intent and context away. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the subtextual connotations of Williams, Shore and modern film composers appropriating Eastern instrumentation isn't just nefarious, but some form of blind ignorance to their oppression and othering of minorities... Yeah right. I would add that the author and like-minded people would say it is not cultural appropriation (or at least not the bad kind), when a non-European descendant composes for an orchestra. Just so dumb. I know we are giving the author too much attention by even discussing this, but we also know that the author represents the logical conclusion to a lot of people's principles on these things--so, I suppose we have to respond. Tydirium and Arpy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tom said: I would add that the author and like-minded people would say it is not cultural appropriation (or at least not the bad kind), when a non-European descendant composes for an orchestra. Just so dumb. I know we are giving the author too much attention by even discussing this, but we also know that the author represents the logical conclusion to a lot of people's principles on these things--so, I suppose we have to respond. And a rag like the Wawthingtum Potht is widely read and influential. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 At least all the comments are negative except the last guy who posted Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Falstaft 2,132 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 Between the approving comparisons of writers for the Washington Post -- a "dirt sheet" to which I now proudly count myself as a contributor! -- to literal Nazis, to what I can only interpret as a mocking emulation of a gay lisp in several above posts, this thread is getting really gross. I mentioned it up-thread, but when you see yourself implicitly compared to Joseph Goebbels, when that man was in fact responsible in part for murdering members of your family, then you begin to wonder whether this is an online community you want to participate in. The article in question is misguided and intellectually embarrassing enough as it is without these shit-posts. There's plenty of solid dismantling of its stupidity done a rhetorically responsible way in this thread and for that I'm grateful. You can criticize bad music analysis without resorting to infantile homophobia or your personal political axe-grinding. The Illustrious Jerry, _deleted_, Docteur Qui and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Ye gods. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Whatta meesa saying? Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said: I mentioned it up-thread, but when you see yourself implicitly compared to Joseph Goebbels, when that man was in fact responsible in part for murdering members of your family, then you begin to wonder whether this is an online community you want to participate in. Well... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buried_by_the_Times And this isn't some obscure conspiracy theory book. It's published by Cambridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 26 minutes ago, Falstaft (hiatus til TROS) said: Between the approving comparisons of writers for the Washington Post -- a "dirt sheet" to which I now proudly count myself as a contributor! -- to literal Nazis, to what I can only interpret as a mocking emulation of a gay lisp in several above posts, this thread is getting really gross. I mentioned it up-thread, but when you see yourself implicitly compared to Joseph Goebbels, when that man was in fact responsible in part for murdering members of your family, then you begin to wonder whether this is an online community you want to participate in. The article in question is misguided and intellectually embarrassing enough as it is without these shit-posts. There's plenty of solid dismantling of its stupidity done a rhetorically responsible way in this thread and for that I'm grateful. You can criticize bad music analysis without resorting to infantile homophobia or your personal political axe-grinding. Jay already called Josh out, though, and since then things have been pretty well-behaved I thought(?). Nobody was comparing you to Goebbels; you wrote a great article about film music, lol. Yes, Josh's comment was over-the-top, but I don't think someone calling out the mainstream media (largely in regards to reporting of news) automatically means that a side-gig arts contributor who wrote an article on STAR WARS music should take offense, as though it were directed at you personally. Everybody here loves you and your contributions both to this forum as well as to film music discussion across the board. Josh very well may not have even known you had written that article for the Post, and I'm sure if you asked him he would say he was not referring to you in the least. No offense, but it seems like you might be reading into things a bit too much. And I didn't read that other comment above as being intended to be a gay lisp, or as being homophobic... Never thought of it as possibly being that, until reading your comment. I think it's a tad unfair to assume that anything spelled out like that is "homophobic". Idk, just seems like some people here are getting a little too offended. Scrolling through the thread, the discourse here seems to be pretty friendly for the most part, save for the few people showing up trying to say that it's somehow not... Fabulin and Dr. Rick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 The lithp being interpreted as being an ironic attack on homosexuals is a stretch and really is an assumption that originates in the mind of the outraged. Falstaft is projecting. I do the lithp to lampoon hysterically effeminate chardonnay socialists who arrogantly presume their moral superiority through ultra PC absurdities. It's Titania McGrath, only more low brow and gives me the giggles. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 This thread is hell on earth Taikomochi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Cast away not those who are not of a like mind Homogeneous thought will tyranny leave behind Silence no one - Indian, American or Greek Because in a free country everyone gets to speak Tydirium and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said: The lithp being interpreted as being an ironic attack on homosexuals is a stretch and really is an assumption that originates in the mind of the outraged. Falstaft is projecting. I do the lithp to lampoon hysterically effeminate chardonnay socialists who arrogantly presume their moral superiority through ultra PC absurdities. It's Titania McGrath, only more low brow and gives me the giggles. Yeah, I think the assumption that any instance of "s" being replaced with "th" is meant to parody a "gay lisp"/is "homophobic", is a bit of a stretch... I never once drew any connection between your comment and anything remotely homosexual-related, until Falstaft's comment lambasting you for it. EDIT: It's honestly kind of weird, because this thread reads as being pretty tame and friendly for the most part (aside from stuff that Jay had already addressed)—nobody really insulting one another or anything, nobody cursing each other out, nobody getting heated at one another—until LarryO and now Falstaft show up and tell us that things are apparently "ugly", "antisocial", "gross", "homophobic", etc....? Feels almost like gaslighting, lol. Strange. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Larry O 115 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 "I'm not making fun of gay people. I'm making fun of effeminate men. It's totally different. You know who's REALLY making fun of gay people? Falstaft." "I don't understand what's happening here, it seemed like we were all having safe, mean-spirited fun being rude and ugly on the site dedicated to the nice, kindly man who scored E.T. - and then someone said our fun actually was rude and ugly and now I'm just shocked and bewildered? Is this what being gaslit is like? Anyway, if our behavior makes one of the best, most interesting, and most informed contributors feel like they don't have a place here, too bad for him and anyone else like him, I guess." This sort of hyper-casual disrespect is really unnecessary and unbecoming and I don't understand why it's even here. This is a forum dedicated to John Williams. When you search the name John Williams, this place comes up. When you ask questions on google about John Williams' music, you get links back here. The man is considered one of the nicest, most gentle, most friendly, most open people in the film industry, as well as being a legitimate genius. And now there's a thread on the site so closely associated with him where a small percentage of this forum's membership persists in being needlessly cruel to one of its best members, because it's more important to feel better about being casually nasty to weak straw figures in the shape of lisping effeminate PC men, than it is to be respectful and thoughtful to any degree. It's really disappointing to see. Nobody here is sticking up for the article. Everyone agrees its a bad article. But turning that into an excuse to wallow in some real repugnant (and beyond that, wholly unnecessary) rhetoric at the risk of alienating some of the best contributors here is not just sad, it's destructive. People don't have to be angels just because this site has John Williams' name on it. They don't have to post as if the Maestro might be watching just in case he decides to sign up. That's silly. But it doesn't have to be yet another repellent enclave of upset men, either. The internet's got enough of those already. There's no reason this little corner of the internet needs to join their ranks. I can't describe to you how disappointing it would be to stop visiting JOHN WILLIAMS FAN DOT COM because it assumed the shape of a bile-filled subreddit. Docteur Qui, Falstaft and Sharkissimo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,894 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I have Asperger's, but this guy takes the idiot cake. Not Mr. Big and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry O 115 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said: I have Asperger's, but this guy is the bigger retard. Have a nice night, gentlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, Larry O said: "I'm not making fun of gay people. I'm making fun of effeminate men. It's totally different. You know who's REALLY making fun of gay people? Falstaft." Nobody ever said that, though. 40 minutes ago, Larry O said: And now there's a thread on the site so closely associated with him where a small percentage of this forum's membership persists in being needlessly cruel to one of its best members, because it's more important to feel better about being casually nasty to weak straw figures in the shape of lisping effeminate PC men, than it is to be respectful and thoughtful to any degree. Dude. Who is being "needlessly cruel to one of [the forum's] best members"? We all love Falstaft here. If you're referring to the instance of the user who posted the Goebbels image: 1. that person was chastised by Jay awhile ago and 2. that image was in no way directed at Falstaft, anyways... Can we please stop the pearl-clutching? Nobody here is attacking Falstaft. The Goebbels image was dealt with long ago by Jay; why can't you move beyond it? You keep seemingly trying to conjure up outrage for the sake of outrage. Arpy and Unlucky Bastard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,894 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, Larry O said: Have a nice night, gentlemen. I wasn't referring to you or your comment, if that's what you thought. I didn't even read the thread aside from the first post. Did something offensive happen here that I'm not aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Will 2,215 Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2020 Me finally opening this thread tonight SteveMc, Unlucky Bastard, Tydirium and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,894 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 What exactly even happened, aside from the article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 I'm not sure! @Josh500 posted a rather tasteless image likening mainstream media to Geobbel's propaganda, but that was already addressed pages ago by Jay, so... It honestly seems like the few people here taking issue with the thread, are either trying to retread that water rather than move on, or are trying to just denounce this whole discussion as somehow "problematic"—even though aside from them, everybody here seems to actually be getting along, lol. I don't see what the problem is. If someone has an issue with something that someone else is saying, you'd think it could be calmly addressed to that person in particular—rather than take some moral high ground stance over the discussion as a whole, and throwing out words like "ugly", "gross", etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 37 minutes ago, Larry O said: "I'm not making fun of gay people. I'm making fun of effeminate men. It's totally different. You know who's REALLY making fun of gay people? Falstaft." https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=environmenta-lisp Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 Yep. If anything is homophobic, it could be argued that it's the assumption that gay men are the only people afflicted with a lisp... Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,316 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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