SPOILER TALK: Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

[Hurmm 91]

First there was jumping the shark. 

 

Then came nuking the fridge. 

 

We now have fissuring the time. 

[mrbellamy 6,288]

28 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Initially I used to think Hollywood screenwriters are just lazy and think making old heroes depressed and miserable is the easiest way to bring them back, but... A few days ago, I posted a New Yorker article on the MCU, and at some point the screenwriters being interviewed said that parts of those movies were inspired on their own personal lives, even if unconsciously (one of them found out through therapy sessions years after the fact that the relationship he wrote between Thor and Odin is based on his own relationship with his father).

 

So yeah, I think you might be onto something here.

 

You can find the article here:

 

 

I think there may also be an element of them projecting onto their audience of Gen X and Elder Millennials who will be most invested in these characters, that this is how we must feel about getting old or about the elderly 

[Andy 4,141]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

My biggest criticism of the film is that Indy doesn't make the choice to go home, Helena makes it for him.

 

That's... a bold choice to make for your protagonist 5 minutes before the credits roll, robbing them of their agency. There needed to be a moment of self-reflection where Indy realised, as a man of science, he couldn't stay in the past without consequences for the future. All the film needed was a few shots of cowering families huddled together while the battle raged around them. A mother and father consoling a scared child, which provides Indy the epiphany he needed to return home and repair his life with Marion.

 

There's stronger characterization they could've explored with the Dial. Voller has a very clear motivation for wanting the Dial. Indy... doesn't really have any? Which is very strange, because it seems like the film was setting this up when Basil pleaded with him to destroy the Dial but Indy just kept it? What if he's obsessed with the Dial's power and wanted to use it to save Mutt?

 

That story might have been stronger, creating parallel objectives for Voller and Indy. Voller wants to kill Hitler. Indy wants to save his son. In true Indiana Jones style, neither get what they want, but the lesson Indy learns is that repairing his life with Marion is more important than changing history to save his son, with all the consequences that would wrought. Maybe the film's emotional climax is Indy having a moral dilemma where he can save Mutt but Voller changes the outcome of WWII, so he has to let Mutt go in order to stop Voller?

 

I think all this would've landed much more satisfyingly than Voller just dying in a plane crash and Indy getting knocked out and their subsequent return trip happening off-screen.

 

Damn! You should've written the end of the movie.

I'm going to hope that there's going to be a novelization where Indy basically plays out those scenarios in his head, and realizes the past can't be changed.

 

1 hour ago, Holko said:

In general most of the chase scenes were a bit too hectic and long to me, with some unclear geography and not many creative gags. Compare the tuktuk chase through random streets with them accidentally finding the already completely gone Vollner multiple times to Tintin's Bagghar chase!

But the Prologue especially was a but too long, I almost groaned the third time Indy entered a carriage and had to quietly evade mazis, stopping the momentum dead yet again.

 

The action... I dunno, it was good but dang I missed Spielberg, real stuntmen, and clear camerawork that shows you what's happening without giving you brief impressions of perceived movement.  Why doesn't the tuktuk chase stand out like the TLC motorcycle chase or TOD mine cart chase?  It was hard to think of my favorite setpiece when leaving the theater.

 

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

 A few days ago, I posted a New Yorker article on the MCU, and at some point the screenwriters being interviewed said that parts of those movies were inspired on their own personal lives, even if unconsciously (one of them found out through therapy sessions years after the fact that the relationship he wrote between Thor and Odin is based on his own relationship with his father).

 

Oh, absolutely.  How many family comedies feature a Dad who doesn't spend enough time with his kids because he's working too much?  Hollywood has a lot of scriptwriters who had absent fathers.

 

[Edmilson 7,468]

36 minutes ago, Andy said:

Hollywood has a lot of scriptwriters who had absent fathers.

Or who are absent fathers themselves 

[King Mark 3,631]

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

 

I think all this would've landed much more satisfyingly than Voller just dying in a plane crash and Indy getting knocked out and their subsequent return trip happening off-screen.

 Yeah that was a bad ending.

 

but I preferred the over the top airplane scenes and Battle of Syracuse over some of the early chase scenes in the film

[1977 1,743]

Other than the time travel aspect and the MacGuffin that facilitates it, is there anything else in this that leans into the supernatural/occult?

[King Mark 3,631]

I think that was pretty much it .The Dial was set to lead to always lead to the same time period (back to Archimedes)

[Andy 4,141]

Yeah, so Jones' entire "continental drift"... was he bluffing just to bust the Nazis' balls and freak them out, or was he correct?  Or was he just assuming he was correct, not understanding that the Dial always had only one time destination.  Because they do later seem to indicate that it doesn't work like the Delorean, that it only closes the loop back to the Battle at Syracuse.

[Bellosh 3,419]

2 hours ago, Andy said:

Yeah, so Jones' entire "continental drift"... was he bluffing just to bust the Nazis' balls and freak them out, or was he correct?  Or was he just assuming he was correct, not understanding that the Dial always had only one time destination.  Because they do later seem to indicate that it doesn't work like the Delorean, that it only closes the loop back to the Battle at Syracuse.

 

He was correct. It only ever leads back to Syracuse. Which i think is a nice change of pace to time travel 

[King Mark 3,631]

Maybe it was just his theory but that was enough for Voller to doubt.

[oierem 152]

14 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

If we take only the "he wanted reinforcements", that just feels weak to me, and makes it weird too that he just stands there looking at them, no real conversation, no trying to learn something from them, nothing. And the fakeout that makes him in his tomb seem like a time traveller who's already been to the future really cheap.

 

My take on this is that it works as a self-fullfilling prophecy. Archimedes meets Indy, and therefore, he makes an object that would, in the future, bring Indy to him. 

I thought that the Dial would stay in the past, therefore becoming a "bootstrap paradox" (Archimedes got the dial from Indy, and later, Indy would get the Dial from his tomb), but IIRC that doesn't happen, does it?

 

15 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I think it got better as it went along (whereas Crystal Skull got worse) but it did feel superfluous and makes the already superfluous Crystal Skull feel even more superfluous. Especially with Mutt and Marion, like Indy rides into the sunset and these are the two stories you guys just HAVE to tell? 

 

I was initially defensive of the Star Wars heroes being old and depressed in the sequels but now it's such a Lucasfilm cliche that I'm convinced everybody over there is telling on themselves. They all either must hate being old or they're terrified of becoming old.

 

I'd still give both Indy 4 and 5 like 6/10, not sure which one I prefer. They just feel like twin case studies in leaving things alone. 

 

I really could not get into the prologue at all, idk...I thought it looked pretty bad and the action immediately kind of zoned me out. Helena, I liked fine, I found the early scenes with her especially charming. I appreciated overall how this movie is more violent than Crystal Skull, whenever the bad guys murder someone it feels shocking. Once the airport scene kicks in, I did really enjoy that, I felt the buildup of all that and then Syracuse is just bananas, it's really fun and it felt like a "fuck it, this is Indy 5" decision in a good way.

 

But then it does just end and the Marion scene, idk. It was okay, it was sweet, but I just wasn't invested. They didn't convince me that I needed to know any of this. 

 

The music did really stand out to me throughout, I'm happy about that. Again especially the airport, he's such a big part of ratcheting up all the tension, I think that was my favorite piece of score. 

 

I did find that Indy's arc in this movie was the same as in Crystall Skull.

 

I too found it hard to get into the prologue (mostly because of the music). I felt the movie became better and better afterwards (NY had a nice 70s film noir vibe, and overall I prefer Morocco and Sicily as locations) and the last act was fascinating and crazy. However, I really didn't like the "sudden" ending. The fact that Indy was knocked out denied us of a proper ending to the climax (imagine the emotional swell of the music as we ctually see Indy & co. flying back to the present, while looking back longingly at that ancient time).

[King Mark 3,631]

3 minutes ago, oierem said:

 

The fact that Indy was knocked out denied us of a proper ending to the climax (imagine the emotional swell of the music as we ctually see Indy & co. flying back to the present, while looking back longingly at that ancient time).

yeah I guess they were already too much overbudget

[Holko 9,529]

22 minutes ago, oierem said:

Archimedes got the dial from Indy, and later, Indy would get the Dial from his tomb), but IIRC that doesn't happen, does it?

Archimedes starts making it, sees the finished one in the wreck and gives it back to Indy, finishes it, breaks it, Indy and Vollner find the parts, assemble it, take it back, Indy gets it back from Archimedes, it's taken back to 1969... to potentially be used in the future by anyone else to go back to Syracuse? It's kind of ignored, in the previous movies Indy always loses or gives up the artifact.

[Demondm810 399]

This is about the only place I can say this and people will understand, but the tracked musical phrases through the actions scenes completely took me out of the viewing experience.  The new Nazi/Voller theme is great.  I liked the movie a lot, despite clear faults.  Amazing how easily you can feel Spielberg's absence.  

[Mr. Who 919]

I saw the movie tonight and while I enjoyed it, there are some things that were very disappointing. The off screen death of Indy’s son and his divorce felt so unnecesary and really put a damper on the whole movie. Indy can be a bit grumpy without this heavy baggage and they could just say that Mutt is living his own life instead of having him killed off off screen.

 

Helena’s motivation also is wasn’t great IMO as the movie would have benefitted from her having a closer or at least better relationship with Indy.

 

I also wanted to see Marion and Salla more as there wasn’t really any reason they couldn’t join on the adventure.

 

However the movie on an overall story level is very well done. I like the Dial as a concept and the villains were pretty good. The train sequence was cool and so were many of the action scenes. The movie overall gives me a more negative feeling though because of the underlying sadness of Indy’s character throughout.

 

JW’s score is great though and as someone who thinks Tintin is among JW’s best works, it was nice to hear some duel i spired music. Helena’s theme is beautiful and I can’t wait to listen to the CD!

 

I will be seeing the movie again in a couple of weeks and hope that is have a more fun time with it on second viewing.

[Edmilson 7,468]

56 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

The off screen death of Indy’s son and his divorce felt so unnecesary and really put a damper on the whole movie. Indy can be a bit grumpy without this heavy baggage and they could just say that Mutt is living his own life instead of having him killed off off screen

Pretty much what I think about Mutt in this movie. Killing him is needlesly cruel to poor Indy (and him).

[Mr. Who 919]

26 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Pretty much what I think about Mutt in this movie. Killing him is needlesly cruel to poor Indy (and him).

They could even have recast Mutt for the movie if they wanted to have him in the movie.

[Andy 4,141]

YES to both @Mr. Who and @Edmilson!!!

 

There is a real melancholy to the whole affair because of the loss of Indy’s son.  I wish they’d dealt with Mutt the way you suggested.  Because there is no happy ending when a parent loses their child.  So instead of a jubilant ending, Jones and Marion are very much broken people in a much worse place than they ever were.  I guess they were going for a more realistic grounded character, but I don’t know. It made me really sad. If you know someone or have someone in your family that has lost a child, it’s not something you get over and get on with. 
 

Deep stuff for an Indiana Jones movie. 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I don’t agree that Indy should “as a man of science” realize on his own that he has to go back to the future. With the position the character is in, staying in the past is all he’d want to do. That said, I do agree that the punch is too much. If it were my script, I’d never send the characters to the past, but I’d also rather see Helena as the conflicted character at the climax. Then Indy can take his father’s place as the one who tells her to let the grail dial go.

[Andy 4,141]

They should’ve had Indy sit down on the battlefield and tell Helena, “Somewhere your Godgrandpa and Godbrother are laughing.”

[greenturnedblue 372]

Would anyone here punch their 80 year old father/grandfather in the face?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Finaly I have a little time to write about the film and music. (I watched it on opening night...)

First of all, i have mixed feelings about both. When I got out of the cinema, i was somehow depressed. There is nothing wrong per se with the film and score... but although i have thought previously about it, seeing this film it truly dawned on me the fact that they could have been doing by the least an indiana Jones film a decade post- last crusade, and this film would be a great 6, 7 or 8 film. Ot ar least should have made another old indy film in the 2010s. The series is now so disjointed. We are missing so many adventures and years in between. In the end they made a film without spielberg and Lucas...which they could have started doing in the 90s. In this case its a shame it was not sold to disney then. We would have good and bad films, but at least we would have seen our hero age gradually.

 

About the score... I like everything, but the 1944 prologue left me saddened. I dont mind temp track love in the rest of the film, more times than not its reworked enough and this has happened several times before in williams works. In the prologue it seems a William Ross job. Like they said to him to compose the music using previously indy material. At least the pieces are masterfully intertwined and does not sound jarring. but sounds a little like a Lucascarts 90s videogame edits using williams music. i think Mcneely Phantom train of doom is better at reworking Williams pieces... I was expecting new music composed in the vein of the old indy scores, and it is a crime the last crusade nazi theme is not used at all. shame :(.

 

About the film... really they open the film in the damned Alps, and disney could not concede to Paramount the mountain logo fadeout? They did it the lucasfilm logo.... but it ruined the continuity of the other 4 films. I thought the young indy was perfect in some shots..but some were very weird and looked fake. I would have thought that with an extra year they could have been improving that.

The rest of the film is nice overall, I dont remember any jarring or unnecessary scenes. I liked williams finally recorded the short version of the indiana jones theme, without the marion theme interlude between two renditions of the theme. I loved the final scene with marion, it was so sad and lovely at the same time, you could feel these characters loss. If only Labeowuf had not been such a dick to spare them such grief (because they would not have killed his character, i mean :p)

The OST flows nicelly but i'm in KM's team. We need the rest of the music.
I wonder if Mandgold had been a Williams fan like us if he could have suggested to use Hitler's motif when Voller tells indy his objective in 1939 .. I would had. or used the last crusade nazi theme in the prologue... and so.

 

I expected indy to lose an eye here... to match young indy appearance... which makes me think... why dont they ask ford to shoot those old indy scenes in his actual self... and make the series alive again....

[Pieter Boelen 740]

22 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

The more I read about this film, the more I realize I really don't want to see it.

Why not?

 

21 hours ago, crumbs said:

Kinda bizarre. Wouldn't modern airplanes be flying through these time fissures everywhere, ending up in random times and places?

They must be rare.

A bit like real life Freak Waves at sea.

It took a LONG time before science managed to confirm the existence of those.

Before that they were just the stuff of legend; that occasionally killed a ship.

 

I also assume they must occur at ground level too.

Otherwise how could Archimedes have tested the Dial before?

 

21 hours ago, crumbs said:

Then why was the Dial disassembled and hidden?

So it wouldn't be found too quickly.

Help needed to come from FAR into the future.

 

19 hours ago, Andy said:

Damn! You should've written the end of the movie.

I'm going to hope that there's going to be a novelization where Indy basically plays out those scenarios in his head, and realizes the past can't be changed.

I'm REALLY hoping for a good Novelization too.

This story could use more breathing space.

On the Dial, the villains and the finale.

 

16 hours ago, oierem said:

I thought that the Dial would stay in the past, therefore becoming a "bootstrap paradox" (Archimedes got the dial from Indy, and later, Indy would get the Dial from his tomb), but IIRC that doesn't happen, does it?

I seem to recall they took the Dial back to the future.

Because Archimedes was needed to make his own version.

 

13 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

I saw the movie tonight and while I enjoyed it, there are some things that were very disappointing. The off screen death of Indy’s son and his divorce felt so unnecesary and really put a damper on the whole movie. Indy can be a bit grumpy without this heavy baggage and they could just say that Mutt is living his own life instead of having him killed off off screen.

I was miffed at Mutt's death too.

Really didn't think that was called for.

 

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

it truly dawned on me the fact that they could have been doing by the least an indiana Jones film a decade post- last crusade, and this film would be a great 6, 7 or 8 film. Ot ar least should have made another old indy film in the 2010s. The series is now so disjointed. We are missing so many adventures and years in between. In the end they made a film without spielberg and Lucas...which they could have started doing in the 90s. In this case its a shame it was not sold to disney then. We would have good and bad films, but at least we would have seen our hero age gradually.

Have to agree. We should've had more.

Thankfully we still have all the Novels.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

44 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

 

Thankfully we still have all the Novels.

True, i love those.

though ironically i think all the bantam ones are pre temple of doom.

 

i forgot the dark horse comics!

 

i hope they make some new novels now that we know the end of indy life, they cannot ruin continuity…

[Pieter Boelen 740]

36 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

True, i love those.

though ironically i think all the bantam ones are pre temple of doom.

They're indeed early Indy stories.

 

Have you read the ones by Wolfgang Hohlbein too?

Most of those are post the films.

I recently found English fan translations at long last.

They're some of my favourites there are!

 

37 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

i hope they make some new novels now that we know the end of indy life, they cannot ruin continuity…

Yes, PLEASE!!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

No i never read the german novels, i would be interested in reading the english translations 😉😉

And now it will be a perfect time to release the unpublished rob mcgregor novel from Staff of kings…

 

Did anyone noticed that one of the body doubles for indy in 1944 was anthony ingruber? I was pleasantly surprised. Im glad for him though his performance is not noticeable… he should have been the protagonist in SOLO…

[Pieter Boelen 740]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

No i never read the german novels, i would be interested in reading the english translations 😉😉

You should be able to find them all on my folder:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Dt45FOznD4LEObpfmGLyc5nbIXK3rVOO

 

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

And now it will be a perfect time to release the unpublished rob mcgregor novel from Staff of kings…

It was released as a free ebook quite recently!

I haven't read it yet, but it is in the folder too.

 

Check out also the fan novelization of Fate of Atlantis.

Haven't read that either, but it promises to be pretty good!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Oh thanks! 
 

Staff of kings had gout outof my radar, im glad it was released but sadly no in physical form 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

37 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Staff of kings had gout outof my radar, im glad it was released but sadly no in physical form 

I prefer hardcopies too.

But I consider us lucky that we got it at all.

I'm glad Rob MacGregor has such good connections to the fans.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I see they’ve learned nothing from how people reacted to Alien 3.

[Bayesian 1,363]

Saw it last night. My initial reaction to this movie is positive—a solid 3 out of 4 stars. Lots of action, very well cast, and perfectly spotted. JW’s score was a gem throughout and I thought it was mixed nicely. Unlike many others here, I didn’t find the lifts or near-lifts distracting or disappointing. Every scene had the right kind of music, confirming that JW hasn’t lost a single step in his advanced age. At least a dozen times during the movie, I caught myself being gobsmacked at the fact that a 90-year-old man wrote every note I was hearing with a pencil on paper. (And, yes, there were a lot of notes to be heard, played on instruments many of today’s film composers appear to have forgotten still exist—like woodwinds, for instance.)

 

I sort of share the growing consensus here that Indy wasn’t really done right by the plot or script. It was deflating to see Indy broken by the loss of his son and his marriage and worse still not to see him recover his mojo by the end. The story arc, however, did make more poignant and believable Indy’s desire and willingness to remain in the past, and I thought that Mangold did an OK job landing that story beat—although I really wish we could have seen what Spielberg would have done with that, because he would have nailed it. 
 

While we’re on the subject of the third act, the reveal of the Battle of Syracuse was one of the very few times I can recall in my moviegoing experience that I was genuinely taken by surprise and loved it (I count myself extremely fortunate that I forgot there is a track called Battle of Syracuse on the OST.) Mangold handled the uncertainty of that whole sequence brilliantly. Indeed, every shot taking place inside the airplane was basically perfect. (It’ll be a long time before I forget the look on Voller’s face when he realized how badly he fucked up. And then the panic throughout the plane when it dawns on them that their escape window is closing with each arrow hit… I felt like I was going to get stranded in 200-whatever B.C.) I felt stakes in a movie for the first time in I don’t know how long. More stakes than I’ve ever felt in any MCU/DCU movie. More than I felt in the entire Star Wars sequel trilogy. It was bliss to feel that in a movie again. That alone was worth the price of admission.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I don't know man. Seeing actual fucking Roman soldiers running around for so brief a time and with basically no build up was a little too much for me. You may find this ridiculous, but it legitimately broke my suspension of disbelief and completely severed my emotional connection to the movie until the moment Marion appeared. Also, merely having Indy say some token line about "Seeing history unfold before our eyes" isn't enough. Give more and better build up to seeing our characters in the past so it doesn't feel unnatural and out of place. And if you're going to recreate a historical event for an Indiana Jones movie, don't just tell me why it was cool in an early classroom scene when you could show me during the actual recreation. Show Archimedes lighting Roman ships on fire! Show the hook he devised to lift Roman ships out of the water and drop them. Show the audience why Indiana Jones thinks history is cool.

[Andy 4,141]

One thing I admired about the war scene was that it wasn’t over the top Hollywood with thousands upon thousands of foot soldiers. I don’t pretend to be an expert, but in terms of scale it was probably somewhat accurate. 

[Fabulin 3,514]

My take on the film:

 

In general:

+++ Ford's acting!

++ Phoebe Waller-Bridge's acting

++  I think the film excellently balances between Indy's grit/toughness and vulnerability. I liked the exchange about the watch being a memento for Indy's father. You could feel for Indy just being an old human being not having the energy to suffer everybody and everything being unkind to him. In many such small moments an excellent movie that could have been tried to raise its head. Ditto the 'my friend just got murdered'. Or fixing the engine problem and smiling. Or managing to climb the cliff but having Helena show some care (which also sets up her later care for him in Syracuse).

+ Helena was not overpowered; she tried to take charge of action scenes with varying success, did not overshine Indy, I liked very much how balanced it was between them and I think the filmmakers did a good job in telling "that episode where Indy goes on an adventure with his goddaughter" kind of story. For example: the scene where Helena and Teddy discuss who is really in charge, and Indy is a bit more.

++ It's a personal take that can be wrong, but it seemed to me Williams wrote and used Helena's theme in a way that vaguely reminded me of a kind of quaint woman-centered adventure from the 1950s/1960s, or a later throwback film like Passage To India. For whatever reason I generally felt that Williams generally wrote a bit in the spirit of Maurice Jarre for this film.

+ starting from Morocco the film found its footing.

+ I enjoyed Sallah's cameos. I realized it would be too contrived to have him be present during the adventures, and I low-key liked how they presented him simply as a family man and a friend adding a bit of positive energy to the film.

 

Details:

- I didn't like the 1944 prologue (confound soft reboots, including music reuse) or the New York very much (perhaps I saw too many set photos and had unrealistic expectations).

- The horse chase was kind of pathetic. I don't know how to express it better. I don't think it was necessary for the film to point out the datedness of escaping on horseback.

+ The audience in my theater did chuckle though when Indy said the subway was faster, so I guess that landed.

- ambiguous FBI / CIA ties of the bad guys that make it confusing early on just who was giving orders or in general what to expect from them

+ the bad guy gang was just good enough as far as the mooks went, even if the characters were not as easy to tell apart as the bad guys from Raiders, Temple, or Crusade

+ The hotel brawl scenes were fun. Reminded me of the bar fight in POTC: Dead Man's Chest.

+  The Tuk-Tuk escape from that comedy genre gangster in love with Helena. LOL

+ Teddy was well-written and well-acted. He didn't feel annoying, forced, or too in/competent. That one scene of a set up of him probably being able to fly a plane later sufficed for the pulp genre.

- Did Helena try to get Indy killed underwater by leaving him to the eels and then changed her mind? I didn't quite get that scene.

- Banderras character was kinda a waste, dragged into the story only to get killed (the disposable pilot / thanks for the ride / selfless friend trope)

+ singing Beethoven's 5th in the cave. Random stuff like this helps keep a series fresh. Reminded me of such moments in TLJ.

+ giant goon (Oliver Richters) died a bit like the spider alien from Treasure Planet, outsmarted by the kid. Not what I expected, but fair enough xD

- the real pilot waking up in the back of the kid's Cessna felt like seeing a clear fix to a plothole that was not introduced yet (how would a kid regain control of an airplane in freefall)

+ Voller seemed intelligent, with my favourite moment being when he realized the validity of Indy's warning and tried to turn the plane back. In general I loved the tension right before they entered that portal, and the tension immediately after. The film had several top notch scenes, but sadly also many just decent and quite a few weaker ones.

+ the Syracuse battle was a fun idea, reminded me of the battle from the third Mummy movie.

-- but the plane just circling around and getting flak from ballistas felt a bit aimless. Missed opportunities in that final act.

- Archimedes interacted with the McGuffin plot but didn't feel impactful (unlike the Grail Knight), and the supporting characters in the ancient era (the guy with a bow, the random Roman officer) seemed pointless.

+ Indy talking in Greek. I like to think about it as a little pay-off to Henry Jones Sir's forcing his son to practice Greek in Crusade.

+ Helena being shown as vulnerable by knowing some Greek but not as well as Indy. Part of that balancing.

+ Ford's acting out the character's motivation to stay in the past just to watch was good, for a second you could imagine him staying being an ending that would make sense to the character, but I also liked how the nonverbal sentiment Helena tried to express was acted out. Unpopular opinion, but I kinda bought the punch to the face Indy got. I thought it was cartoony kind of funny, like hot shoes after stopping the mine cart or rolling out of a fridge. Indy is not just the kind of character who can be flawed and get hit, but also inherently the kind of character that can be the butt of slapstick. I preferred the film to end more like ROTJ than like TLJ, with him surviving.

-/+ I didn't like the reunion with Marion in KOTCS and I wasn't excited about another one here, but Ford's acting throughout the film made it seem fitting. I smiled at the idea of a simple, down-to-earth romance scene between two old characters. I also like how Helena smiled and disappeared from the picture at a right moment. This, plus Sallah-coming-and-going felt like a well-cooked mood soup.

+ I liked the final close-up on the hat being pulled back through the window and the screen turning into a contracting circle (like Star Wars OT, only slower, cartoon style). Precisely for that kind of light final note I wanted Indy to live another day.

 

Overall very different from but probably better than KOTCs (a film I like for what it's worth); it's about on par with an archeology-themed flick like National Treasure to me. Would watch again sometime.

[karelm 2,914]

Just saw the film and had a great time!  It was very loud but not sure if that was my theater.  It hit all the right notes for me such as nods to nostalgia, great set pieces (chases), good side characters who have their own backstory yet contribute to the plot, good villain and henchmen.  To me, this is much better than Crystal Skull and almost as good as Last Crusade but that one of course has Sean Connery.  

 

Story wise, damn good and here is why.  Indy always pursued the treasure but usually found in the end, the treasure must remain in its place.  The others who are greedy don't realize this usually costing them their lives in a desperate bid for a futile pursuit.  But now, in a carefully crafted story, the shallow Helena pursues the prize of the artifact.  Once Indy, who's always lived in the relics gets to experience the past for the first time in his life, it is he who starts to lose his life by the desire to experience the past itself.  And Helena, the greedy muse who realizes Indy is right after all and has to pull him back kicking and screaming to reality and leave the past in its time.  That was brilliant storytelling and very moving plus added a layer to the character without compromising his legacy.  To me, that makes it a worthy entry in the Indiana Jones saga.

 

As far as negatives, I wish Mikkelsen had more opportunities to show his villainy because frankly, I really like him as an actor and he never seemed bad enough or greedy enough.  Perhaps just one more scene of utter villainy would have sold it.  I also felt the audio (not the score) was way too loud.  Again, I don't know if that was just my DOLBY ATMOS theater experience, but the score seems way better than I recall as I'm listening to the soundtrack now but all I remember was the sound effects.  Harrison looked amazing for his age but sometimes looked quite old and sometimes I forgot his age.  I think a lot of this comes down to hair.  When he's disheveled, he looked older.  But you still catch glimpses of his eternal boyish charms.  I also felt the film needed a little more humor.  He's weary most of the time.  I get he's older and all but this still needs to be a fun movie.  It would have just taken a touch or two to pull this off.  One small example, when he's with Marion at the end, the final shot should have been an empty clothesline where he takes the worn out fedora he has on placed on the clothesline (the complete opposite of what they shot) and implying they're about to hop in the bed to snuggle but also a very nice send off.  Overall I would rate it at 7/10 and entertaining and glad to see a beloved character return for another adventure with some nice twists and expansions but some missed opportunities.  

[paleo 63]

One thing I really didn't buy was how easy it was to find Archimedes' riddle chamber. It was just a tunnel entrance high up on a cliff but visible from below in a major tourist attraction. So it wasn't discovered and researched in over 2000 years? It should have demanded a secret door or something like that at least.

Also, are there such huge spiders in Sicily? :-)

And one thing that puzzled me: I seem to recall a scene in a trailer in which Indy uses his whip to dislodge a giant boulder in Archimedes' tomb, but if this appeared in the actual movie, I must have missed it. Can anybody tell me if it is in there?

[Holko 9,529]

Nope, it's not in there. Pity, then he would have used his whip twice.

[paleo 63]

But it was in a trailer, right? Really a pity.

[Jay 37,372]

Didn't he use his whip twice in the finished film? In the prologue once, and then in the hotel auction? 

[paleo 63]

Yes, once on top of the train, and once in Morocco. As for the trailer: It's not the whip, but a long stick he uses to move the boulder

[Andy 4,141]

This has been a gripe I’ve had since Temple of Doom where Jones would use his whip every 5 minutes and then floss his teeth with it.  

 

It’s part of the character! If you were describing the character to someone unfamiliar, whip would be in your first sentence. 
 

So here we have Ford with limited capacity for the stunts and action. The bullwhip is the perfect solution! The pistol too for that matter. At least we had the small gunfight in DOD. 
 

But there should’ve been a lot more whip cracking.  
 

I need to do a whip count for each movie. Like a body count for slashers. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

13 hours ago, Fabulin said:

 

+ I liked the final close-up on the hat being pulled back through the window and the screen turning into a contracting circle (like Star Wars OT, only slower, cartoon style). Precisely for that kind of light final note I wanted Indy to live another day.

They ended the mandalorian season 3 in the same way. 

[oierem 152]

4 hours ago, paleo said:

One thing I really didn't buy was how easy it was to find Archimedes' riddle chamber. It was just a tunnel entrance high up on a cliff but visible from below in a major tourist attraction. So it wasn't discovered and researched in over 2000 years? It should have demanded a secret door or something like that at least.

Also, are there such huge spiders in Sicily? :-)

And one thing that puzzled me: I seem to recall a scene in a trailer in which Indy uses his whip to dislodge a giant boulder in Archimedes' tomb, but if this appeared in the actual movie, I must have missed it. Can anybody tell me if it is in there?

 

Didn't it feel odd to have Indy exploring a major tourist attraction? In previous films, Indy always explores hidden, forgotten places. Even Petra is presented as a lost temple somewhere in the desert. Here, for the first time, Indy visits a tourist attraction. It felt "too modern". But maybe that's the point!

[paleo 63]

Well, the Temple of Doom was also inhabited, and for exactly that reason I never really liked those caves and tunnels... The Venice catacombs, on the other hand, that's exactly how I like this stuff.

[Andy 4,141]

 

Whip Count

 

Raiders 

1. Disarm Barranca
2. Swing across pit
3. Return swing / bargain with Satipo
4. Disarming Toht’s poker
5. Cairo cracking
6. Climbing the statue
7. Truck chase drag

 

Temple of Doom

1. Pankot assassin/ ceiling fan
2. Swinging down to the stones
3. Being whipped by the Thuggee
4. Swing across the catwalks
5. Disarming Thugee swordsman
6. Wrapping Willie to draw her in for a smooch

 

Last Crusade

1.  Young Indy scar crack
2. Castle Swing to get to Dad
3. Saving Dad on the Tank

 

Crystal Skull

1. Disarming Russian and taking machine gun
2. Swing in warehouse
3. Trying to save Mac

 

Dial of Destiny

1.  prologue on the train
2. At the auction

 

 

Raiders is the winner with Temple a close second. 

 

The whip is also a co-Star with lots of closeups as in Indy using it to Break through spiderwebs and remove tarantulas, yanking it with sound effects before the temple door closes on it, Indy packing it in his suitcase , Imam’s house , and Marion mistaking it for a snake and burning it.  There was also the scene where he lashes himself to the periscope. But the outtakes look like it wasn’t filmed as written, plus Jones doesn’t have it when he swims to the sub .

 

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

Mutt defying Indy and going to Vietnam is very on par for the character.

 

Now could there have been a better catalyst for Marion and Indy to finally split up?  Who knows.

 

But we shouldn't forget that KOTCS set the ground-work for Indy's dysfunctional relationship with Marion (and vice-versa)  I mean going that long without telling Indy he's the biological father? lol...yeah i dunno.  But who could blame her?  He walked out before their wedding.  Not to mention all the adventures he was still probably going on at the time of Mutt's birth.

 

Also, Indy's mom died when he was very young, and also had a very poor relationship with his father growing up.  He has all the luck in the world----just not with family stuff.

 

I will say this, as someone who never hated Mutt and kinda enjoyed KOTCS, that character was set up to fail to begin with.

 

Shia (for all his personal issues that i really have never took the time to look into) did have a sort of an acting-renaissance, similar (but smaller scale) to Robert Pattison.  It's obvious he distanced himself from future Indy projects but I really think he could have been brought back in some fashion in DoD and been redeemed.   He was still too 'Even Stephens' Shia during KOTCS.

 

But I'd say, my overall point is atleast they had his death be very on-brand for him.

[Tom 4,669]

2 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

Now could there have been a better catalyst for Marion and Indy to finally split up?  Who knows.

 

It is not all that true to life.  I know many, many people who have lost children to war, sickness, accidents.  In all cases, it either drew them closer together or made no substantial impact on their relationship.  It feels like cheap writing to me (more so the second time after TFA). 

[Bellosh 3,419]

42 minutes ago, Tom said:

It is not all that true to life.  I know many, many people who have lost children to war, sickness, accidents.  In all cases, it either drew them closer together or made no substantial impact on their relationship.  It feels like cheap writing to me (more so the second time after TFA). 

 

Yeah I don't deny it's cheap.  But on-brand cheap.

 

If anything it makes KOTCS's ending sad now. The amount of arguments all 3 of them must have had leading up to all of the DoD drama

 

 

edit: now it's funny to me that JW decided to play Mutt's theme at the showing a couple weeks ago that had everyone there.

 

lol maybe JW didn't like Mutt dying either 

[Jay 37,372]

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but Mads Mikkelsen was deaged for thr prologue too right? 

[King Mark 3,631]

On 01/07/2023 at 7:41 PM, Fabulin said:

 

+ I liked the final close-up on the hat being pulled back through the window and the screen turning into a contracting circle (like Star Wars OT, only slower, cartoon style). Precisely for that kind of light final note I wanted Indy to live another day.

 

 

I bet the original ending had Helena steal Indy's hat and run off with it.That's what they re-shot