Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Disney Records Original Soundtrack Album) - NO FILM SPOILERS!

[Brónach 1,302]

if i listen to a microedited partial and out of order version of an opera i don't know what i'll think

[Holko 9,526]

17 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

The album is exactly as long as John Williams thinks it should be. Weird, when we listen to a pop, or even classical album, we don't complain that the pieces are too short. Would Sgt Pepper have been better if it added 5 minutes of music to fill up the vinyl? Should symphonies have been 5 movements just to give people more bang for their buck? We accept this self-editing in almost every other art form except film-scoring, where any material not included makes for an "incomplete" release. 

 

I think JW's thinking is, if you want to hear the full score, watch the movie. That's what it's for. If you want to hear the music, buy the album, as his curated assembly works better as a purely listening experience. 

 

yea no

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

7 minutes ago, Brónach said:

if i listen to a microedited partial and out of order version of an opera i don't know what i'll think

 

They did Wagner's Ring that way at Vienna's  Theater an der Wien several years ago. Instead of presenting the regular four parts, they rearranged the whole thing into three evenings, each told from the perspective of one character and thus focusing on the scenes of particular relevance for that character (I think it was Siegfried, Brünnhilde, and Hagen). It's an interesting idea, but I wasn't sure what to think of its dramatic success, and musically it was (expectedly) rather a mess.

[Brónach 1,302]

i understand the want to muck around with mediocre scores to make them seem better but film scores, for me, are not pop concept albums and stage music has its own thing going on. but perhaps one can have such a short album with concert pieces/arrangements. which is fact fun.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I think Williams probably omitted that cue because it’s just a rehash of “Spyders” lol. Doesn’t seem too much of a reach. Aside from Tintin, most of the lifts are absent from the album. I like the cue, but I don’t think it’s essential because it is redundant. There are other cues I feel are more necessary 

[Brónach 1,302]

it's been fun to see some people come around on Tintin

[Jay 37,369]

People didn't like Tintin?

You mean the score, or the film?

[JWisgreatestlivingcomposer 43]

As a classical music enthusiast, here is my take: I prefer the entire score performed, recorded, and made available for me to hear on an album (preferably, a CD). I know Gliere's Third Symphony is between 72 and 95 minutes long (depending on tempo), but I'd like to hear the whole thing.

Same goes for a score: John Williams' most recent (and probably last) symphony is his new Indiana Jones score--so I'd like to hear the entire score.

 

As to the value of selecting arrangements, suites, and some complete cues for an album: I am not at all opposed to this: I personally have more fun listening to Charles Gerhardt's 45-minute Symphonic Suite from The Empire Strikes Back (a suite he arranged with JW) than to the 2-CD set of every second of music composed for the film, though it's great to have the complete set. (Just as Stokowski's truncated version of Gliere's Third is often more fun to hear than the complete symphony, but we can still listen to recordings of the whole symphony.)

 

But this is precisely the point: In my view, soundtracks should be released in one, or both, of these specific formats: either a Symphonic Suite of sorts arranged for concert performances OR the complete score. With The Empire Strikes Back, we actually get both.

 

By contrast, with the new Indiana Jones (at least for now), we got neither: this album is not a symphonic suite comprised entirely of concert arrangements. The last few tracks, for example (not including the last, the ASM violin one) are the cues as found in the film. And this is far from a complete score. Thus, including all major action cues (esp. a heavily hyped chase sequence) really should have been a starting point.

 

In general, I think Indiana Jones scores get short thrift compared to Star Wars: the original 3 SW has Suites as well as 2-CD sets of ALL the music. IJ, by contrast, has the 2008 Concord set which, as good as they are, are NOT complete scores. And then this new IJ, which is 62 minutes (at most, as track 2 is not heard in the film) of score on a CD that can hold 80, and a violin suite of track 2. It's kind of indecisive: does this purport to be the original score or a symphonic suite? Because as presented, it's kinda neither.

[Jay 37,369]

Aye, that's the rub

[Schilkeman 964]

59 minutes ago, Brónach said:

if i listen to a microedited partial and out of order version of an opera i don't know what i'll think

 

33 minutes ago, Brónach said:

i understand the want to muck around with mediocre scores to make them seem better but film scores, for me, are not pop concept albums and stage music has its own thing going on. but perhaps one can have such a short album with concert pieces/arrangements. which is fact fun.

There's a difference between a musical narrative and a story narrative. Music is inherently abstract and doesn't need to follow a linear narrative to be interesting (I feel like I've said this before lol).

 

And although some similarities exist between opera and film music, they are not the same, and do not aim to achieve the same goals musically. Willams believes, for the most part, that following the narrative of the film musicaly is not as interesting as his curated experience because, at times, the music is more functional than expressive. Generally, he seems to try and find the expressive bits, and put those together, and if the functional music is included, it's often edited to segue into something more interesting, or for contrast. Sometimes action music is functional. Sometimes the expressive bits just don't fit the flow of the album.

 

10 minutes ago, JWisgreatestlivingcomposer said:

Thus, including all major action cues (esp. a heavily hyped chase sequence) really should have been a starting point.

Just because it's in the film doesn't make it interesting. Just it's loud doesn't make it interesting, either. Williams felt he included enough action music to say what he wanted to say, that's enough for me.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Holko said:

yea no

Now I know how @Thor feels. I know it's spitting into the wind. I just know that I've listened to a lot more film music since I went back to listening to ost programs. And, for what it's worth, I think this is a fine one that I would love to get a hold of on cd. Still hoping.

 

 

[Faleel 5,353]

It's what you attach it to that makes it interesting.

 

"Only what you take with you"

[Holko 9,526]

3 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Just because it's in the film doesn't make it interesting. Just it's loud doesn't make it interesting, either.

JW composed it, that makes it interesting.

 

More seriously, everyone will find different things interesting, the best way is to release it all as he composed it, not just as how he cut it down afterwards (no, the OST is not the actual work, the score is), and let everyone take/make what they like from it. No arbitrary "this is interesting/not interesting" or "this is how he badly combined them one time, it has to stay like that forever" (yes he makes tooons of bad edits and order shifts that only make the listening experience worse). And "just watch the movie to hear the score" is utter bullshit that no serious listener should ever honestly say, it's edited, tracked, looped, mixed under everything else etc.

 

(This is just in general, I do feel that with DoD he did manage to create a really good program and it's probably my favourite Indy OST, or shares the top spot with KOCS - though it helps that i've only seen DOD once and really don't know the complete KOCS at all)

[JWisgreatestlivingcomposer 43]

15 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

 

There's a difference between a musical narrative and a story narrative. Music is inherently abstract and doesn't need to follow a linear narrative to be interesting (I feel like I've said this before lol).

 

And although some similarities exist between opera and film music, they are not the same, and do not aim to achieve the same goals musically. Willams believes, for the most part, that following the narrative of the film musicaly is not as interesting as his curated experience because, at times, the music is more functional than expressive. Generally, he seems to try and find the expressive bits, and put those together, and if the functional music is included, it's often edited to segue into something more interesting, or for contrast. Sometimes action music is functional. Sometimes the expressive bits just don't fit the flow of the album.

 

Just because it's in the film doesn't make it interesting. Just it's loud doesn't make it interesting, either. Williams felt he included enough action music to say what he wanted to say, that's enough for me.

 

 

Now I know how @Thor feels. I know it's spitting into the wind. I just know that I've listened to a lot more film music since I went back to listening to ost programs. And, for what it's worth, I think this is a fine one that I would love to get a hold of on cd. Still hoping.

 

 

I agree that neither inclusion in the film nor loudness (!) are qualifiers for inclusion in the album. I just felt that this particular chase music is really good music (as music to listen to on its own--like the truck chase music in Raiders [not that this is as good as that]), and more interesting than some parts of the album. I still maintain that, given how much space they had, it's odd that they still completely omitted this music entirely.

2 minutes ago, Holko said:

JW composed it, that makes it interesting.

 

More seriously, everyone will find different things interesting, the best way is to release it all as he composed it, not just as how he butchered it afterwards, and let everyone take/make what they like from it. No arbitrary "this is interesting/not interesting" or "this is how he badly combined them one time, it has to stay like that forever" (yes he makes tooons of bad edits and order shifts that only make the listening experience worse). And "just watch the movie to hear the score" is utter bullshit that no serious listener could ever say, it's edited, tracked, looped, mixed under everything else etc. (This is just in general, I do feel that with DoD he did manage to create a really good program and it's probably my favourite Indy OST, or shares the top spot with KOCS - though it helps that i've only seen DOD once and really don't know the complete KOCS at all)

Agreed! Well-said!

[Holko 9,526]

19 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

There's a difference between a musical narrative and a story narrative. Music is inherently abstract and doesn't need to follow a linear narrative to be interesting

JW's one of the best musical storytellers though, and many of us feel that his OST albums grossly misrepresent that.

[Brónach 1,302]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

People didn't like Tintin?

You mean the score, or the film?

 

the score

 

but i dont trust my memory of 2011-2012 too much

1 hour ago, JWisgreatestlivingcomposer said:

As a classical music enthusiast, here is my take: I prefer the entire score performed, recorded, and made available for me to hear on an album (preferably, a CD).

 

(...)

 

But this is precisely the point: In my view, soundtracks should be released in one, or both, of these specific formats: either a Symphonic Suite of sorts arranged for concert performances OR the complete score. With The Empire Strikes Back, we actually get both.

 

(...)

 

i think i'm directly influenced on my opinion on this, which is this one, by listening to classical music as-is (unless there was trickery unknown to me) from cd when i was absolutely tiny.

 

do people want compositivelly different suites for cd? that's great. gimme.

 

but how much of this is trying to create from scratch, concert pieces from straight film cues, in order to make it appear as if a score is better than it is? even the defenders of the "composer's intentions" turn out to be trimming down albums in order to create the imaginary suites.

 

but sometimes good enough music exists, and i've listened to film music that was engaging all the way through. i struggle to accept being told with a straight face that Temple of Doom is that bad. i have also heard non-film music be not quite engaging. (bruckner was getting some flac here the other day, and i like him. it happens. it's becomes a bit subjective.)

[Juanki 23]

23 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

The album is exactly as long as John Williams thinks it should be. Weird, when we listen to a pop, or even classical album, we don't complain that the pieces are too short. Would Sgt Pepper have been better if it added 5 minutes of music to fill up the vinyl? Should symphonies have been 5 movements just to give people more bang for their buck? We accept this self-editing in almost every other art form except film-scoring, where any material not included makes for an "incomplete" release. 

 

I think JW's thinking is, if you want to hear the full score, watch the movie. That's what it's for. If you want to hear the music, buy the album, as his curated assembly works better as a purely listening experience. 

 

I believe this is a great point.

[Brónach 1,302]

the point is a false equivalency. if i remove parts of a symphony, and people liked the original, and it became unavailable on purpose or by circumstances, people would want the whole thing. you edit a symphony around... when you're writing it, not afterwards when assembling a "concept album". i simply chose an opera or musical or ballet or anything like that as a more appropiate example.

 

if the argument is about mediocre spotting or composition or intentions or recording or performance or anything like that, then it's a different matter. if the matter is that circumstances don't allow for anyone to write 40 min of concert music from ideas of their film score and get it recorded and published (which, if you like the thing, actually rules), then that's a different problem too.

 

it gets funnier because my point is basically intuitive to people who aren't film score nerds. so much so that the fraught history of the release of some recordings takes them by surprise (it probably shouldn't because studios do let entire movies to rot, not just recordings, but some people may not be acquainted with the long history of piracy).

 

 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

If they never released Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever as singles and we only had bootlegs....knowing they were cut from Sgt Pepper and the recordings were just sitting around somewhere? Not even lost tapes or unfinished or anything, the songs fully exist but we can't have them? There would be complaints lol. 

 

It's also like going to The Nutcracker and coming out really loving Waltz of the Snowflakes, but ah, only the suite was ever recorded even though it's 2023, sorry. Just gotta go see the ballet again, Tchaikovsky meant you to hear that one only in context...not really part of the listening experience. Waltz of the Flowers is there, anyway, how many do you need?? 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

12 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

If they never released Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever as singles and we only had bootlegs....knowing they were cut from Sgt Pepper and the recordings were just sitting around somewhere? Not even lost tapes or unfinished or anything, the songs fully exist but we can't have them? There would be complaints lol. 

 

It's also like going to The Nutcracker and coming out really loving Waltz of the Snowflakes, but ah, only the suite was ever recorded even though it's 2023, sorry. Just gotta go see the ballet again, Tchaikovsky meant you to hear that one only in context...not really part of the listening experience. Waltz of the Flowers is there, anyway, how many do you need?? 

Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever never were on St. Pepper. They are from Magical Mytery Tour.

 

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[Brónach 1,302]

sometimes the author intentions are bollocks. Wagner intended Lohengrin to be Bayreuth only. Where's that even? I can watch it in southern europe just fine.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

7 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever never were on St. Pepper. They are from Magical Mytery Tour.

 

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

 

They were originally going to be on Pepper but EMI wanted singles asap, so they were off the album. 

 

In this scenario they never make it onto MMT either, that's my point!

[Andy 4,138]

And yet Magical Mystery Tour made it into the soundtrack for Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny!  It all makes sense now. 

[mrbellamy 6,287]

Now I'm just imagining at the end of The Fabelmans, JW just randomly tacks on like five of his greatest highlights that never made an album. 

[Brónach 1,302]

6 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

Now I'm just imagining at the end of The Fabelmans, JW just randomly tacks on like five of his greatest highlights that never made an album. 

 

JW is hinted at in the end credits scene

[Faleel 5,353]

For Genesis self titled album, a whole verse was microedited out of "It's Gonna Get Better" which was released a single, and played live.

 

I prefer the long version and would have liked it to be included

 

Some people preferred the dropped suite tracks from ABACAB were included over other songs.

[Tom 4,661]

I was listening to Tuk Tuk after the Centennial Overture.  There is a great similarity in rhythm and mood between the two pieces.  You don't always hear his action approach in his occasion pieces.  I like it. 

 

 

 

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Wasn't Dial of Destiny supposed to be released on CD yesterday? Page still doesn't exist when I click the link on the JWFan news page.

[Jay 37,369]

On 24/07/2023 at 8:33 PM, Jay said:

The CD wasn't announced to be released in August. 

 

It was sold on Disney Emporium starting June 15th, with a expected ship date of August 9th.  Then it apparently ended up ready to ship sooner than expected. 

 

They never said it'd be available elsewhere in August. 

[pixie_twinkle 48]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

On 24/07/2023 at 8:33 PM, Jay said:

The CD wasn't announced to be released in August. 

 

It was sold on Disney Emporium starting June 15th, with a expected ship date of August 9th.  Then it apparently ended up ready to ship sooner than expected. 

 

They never said it'd be available elsewhere in August. 

Sorry, I think I missed this whole discussion  So am I right in assuming the CD was limited run and has sold out? That's a bummer. 

[Jay 37,369]

2 minutes ago, pixie_twinkle said:

So am I right in assuming the CD was limited run and has sold out?

 

Yeah

 

2 minutes ago, pixie_twinkle said:

That's a bummer. 

 

Yep. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

On 05/08/2023 at 11:31 AM, Brónach said:

if i remove parts of a symphony, and people liked the original, and it became unavailable on purpose or by circumstances, people would want the whole thing.

...

it gets funnier because my point is basically intuitive to people who aren't film score nerds. so much so that the fraught history of the release of some recordings takes them by surprise.

 

Aaaand...  sig'd!

[BB-8 3,478]

The CD has vanished. :-(

[aj_vader 534]

Evri have lost my package so no CD for me. Very angry. 

[crumbs 14,317]

I wonder if Intrada could convince Disney to let them press another batch of 2000 copies?

 

What an absurd situation this whole thing is.

[Bellosh 3,419]

1 hour ago, BB-8 said:

The CD has vanished. :-(

 

Wiped clean by the wrath of Emporium 

[BTR1701 59]

On 06/08/2023 at 10:13 AM, Tom said:

I was listening to Tuk Tuk after the Centennial Overture.  There is a great similarity in rhythm and mood between the two pieces.  You don't always hear his action approach in his occasion pieces.  I like it. 

 

 

 

 

Has there ever been a proper recording of that overture?

 

[Tom 4,661]

28 minutes ago, BTR1701 said:

 

Has there ever been a proper recording of that overture?

 

No, just the phones.  My guess is that it will not be recorded anytime soon.  

[BB-8 3,478]

CD is back

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

No it's not.

[Jay 37,369]

Yes, it is

 

https://www.disneymusicemporium.com/product/XVCD60/john-williams-indiana-jones-and-the-dial-of-destiny

 

The initial screen says "Sorry, we're temporarily out of this item. We'll ship it as soon as it's restocked", but you can add it to your cart and complete the order. The item in your cart will say "This item is out of stock. We'll ship it as soon as it's restocked."

 

So I guess they decided to print more.

 

Good on them!

[Amer 2,110]

Act quick. 

 

No time to Argue

[Brando 1,864]

Is there a way to send a mass email to everyone?

 

I bet that doofus who spent 5 grand on it is about to feel real bad....

 

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Got one! Let's see how quickly they'll be restocked...

Also got 4$ tax slapped on, waiting how that plays with import tariffs to Germany

[Brónach 1,302]

9 minutes ago, Brando said:

I bet that doofus who spent 5 grand on it is about to feel real bad....

 

my money's on some millionaire hollywood musician with a completist attitude

[Jay 37,369]

30 minutes ago, Amer said:

No time to Argue

 

Who's arguing?

[Brando 1,864]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

 

Who's arguing?

I believe he's quoting Raiders when Satipo tells Indy to throw him the Idol...

[Jay 37,369]

Ah!

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Amer wants us to keep attention on his ebay listings. 

[BB-8 3,478]

It's down to one item per customer...

 

"In order for everyone to enjoy the magic, this item is limited to 1 per customer."

 

It's odd though they went into the effort of removing the CD from the banner...

[LB Makes Stuff 240]

It’s back offline